On Red Mage melee...

[Rayik]

I'm totally a BG shark because I call people on their BS right?

Hey genius, I think part of the point of this thread is exactly that the game doesn't support RDM melee in it's current state, even though the job is implied as melee-capable. You jumping in here screaming at us about RDM sucking at melee is just stating the obvious.

I am an absolute RDM melee enthusiast, and I'll be the first to admit RDM sucks ass compared to any true DD. The (very) few times as a RDM I have been "allowed" to melee in a party situation, I contributed to overall damage the same way I did with my spells; strong support, but never outdoing the specialists. A RDM will never out-damage a DD(or out-cure a WHM, out-nuke a BLM, etc)). But, a true DD will never be tossing Cure IV's, enfeebling spells, Hasting, Refreshing, etc, in addition to melee output. ANY damage a RDM does in combat is more damage then it was doing standing in the backline.

The only reason I can see not letting a RDM melee in today's FFXI is to cut down on feeding the mob TP.

[Ironside]

The only reason I can see not letting a RDM melee in today's FFXI is to cut down on feeding the mob TP.

This is a good reason, but I'd also say it depends on the RDM. I've seen quite a few RDMs (and I'm including myself here, I'm actually pretty terrible at RDM, which is why I'm not saying much in this thread) who can hardly multitask enough to keep their party buffed and the enemy debuffed, much less melee the mob.

For a good RDM though, yeah, I'd kinda see your point.

[Aurara]

Hey genius, I think part of the point of this thread is exactly that the game doesn't support RDM melee in it's current state, even though the job is implied as melee-capable. You jumping in here screaming at us about RDM sucking at melee is just stating the obvious.

Hey genius, any job is melee capable, dont give rdm the exclusive "we have swords it means we can melee!!!" whms have clubs and can hexa strike, sch smn have staff skill does that mean they should be QQing about meleeing(ok maybe some people like lolDallas QQ about smn but he's easily ignored). I came in "screaming"(even though i came in with a cool calm level headed tone and was replied with screams of anger, disgust and fury because i stated an opinion that people did not like) because I don't want SE reading this and thinking "OH THEY WANT MELEE RDM TO BE BETTER?!" and give RDM some stupid melee ability so that everyone who loves meleeing on rdm could go "HA I TOLD YOU SO NOOB". RDM should be enfeebling/curing/hasting/etc, NOT meleeing.

I am an absolute RDM melee enthusiast, and I'll be the first to admit RDM sucks ass compared to any true DD. The (very) few times as a RDM I have been "allowed" to melee in a party situation, I contributed to overall damage the same way I did with my spells; strong support, but never outdoing the specialists. A RDM will never out-damage a DD(or out-cure a WHM, out-nuke a BLM, etc)). But, a true DD will never be tossing Cure IV's, enfeebling spells, Hasting, Refreshing, etc, in addition to melee output. ANY damage a RDM does in combat is more damage then it was doing standing in the backline.

You probably contributed so much because the others you were playing with were crap or dead. This has been stressed a hundred times or more, stop comparing yourself to CRAP DD...seriously, go find some well geared, smart players with DD, they will crush you and your dmg contribution will be not even noticeable so stop saying you contribute so much, you contribute more with your spells/enfeebs than you do meleeing and wasting everyone's time.

The only reason I can see not letting a RDM melee in today's FFXI is to cut down on feeding the mob TP.

Because their dmg is crap on anything that isnt EP/DC, they contribute more being on the backline.

[Rayik]

Hey genius, any job is melee capable, dont give rdm the exclusive "we have swords it means we can melee!!!" whms have clubs and can hexa strike, sch smn have staff skill does that mean they should be QQing about meleeing(ok maybe some people like lolDallas QQ about smn but he's easily ignored). I came in "screaming"(even though i came in with a cool calm level headed tone and was replied with screams of anger, disgust and fury because i stated an opinion that people did not like) because I don't want SE reading this and thinking "OH THEY WANT MELEE RDM TO BE BETTER?!" and give RDM some stupid melee ability so that everyone who loves meleeing on rdm could go "HA I TOLD YOU SO NOOB". RDM should be enfeebling/curing/hasting/etc, NOT meleeing.



You probably contributed so much because the others you were playing with were crap or dead. This has been stressed a hundred times or more, stop comparing yourself to CRAP DD...seriously, go find some well geared, smart players with DD, they will crush you and your dmg contribution will be not even noticeable so stop saying you contribute so much, you contribute more with your spells/enfeebs than you do meleeing and wasting everyone's time.

You're mising the point, DD are SUPPOSED to be crushing RDM's melee contribution, RDM can melee and cast spells just fine. As I already said, a RDM won't be pulling hate from melee, so chances are their spells are not going to be interrupted. It's not like we're standing there pressing an "Attack" button, RDM can still cast a spell while in melee. ANY damage contributed to the fight is more damage than would have been if the RDM wasn't meleeing. It's all extra damage, no matter how small.

Alright, I'm trying to keep up with your argument, but the only thing you keep commenting on is how bad everyone else we RDM's must be playing with. It's like the 10th time you mentioned that against multiple people in this discussion. Please, clue me in to this all-seeing eye of yours on how you are able to witness and pass judgment not only on the RDM's in this thread, but every person we play with? R u a wizrd?

[Aurara]

Wow, hostile much? Punctuation works wonders, by the way. You're mising the point, DD are SUPPOSED to be crushing RDM's melee contribution, RDM can melee and cast spells just fine. They are not mutually exclusive! As I already said, a RDM won't be pulling hate from melee, so chances are their spells are not going to be interrupted. It's not like we're standing there pressing an "Attack" button, RDM can still cast a spell while in melee. ANY damage contributed to the fight is more damage than would have been if the RDM wasn't meleeing. It's all extra damage, no matter how small.

Moving to ad hominem attacks are we? Well that's hilarious since you had a much more hostile reply than I had for you. I'm not missing any points here, you're simply wrong. RDM has no place on the frontline, because bu your logic every single job should be meleeing because they have melee capabilities. By having a RDM on the frontline you subject them to debuffs/easily killed unless they have: PDT/MDT sets, are you willing to put the money out for those sets? Or do you expect your healer(hint, YOU have cure4) to just cure you so you can continue to melee? If i was in your party, and I was on whm I would let you die, and just ignore your crying because i let a DD die. You are aware that some mobs have TP moves that will one shot you, but not the other DDs, congratulations, you are now dead and people have to waste MP/time away from the fight to raise you, OR they wait until the fight is over, in which case you contributed nothing, maybe 1-2k dmg, but nothing that would have changed the course of the fight. You are also forgetting that some mobs have silence auras, making it stupid for you to melee because you constantly have to run in/out of range meaning you lose dmg.

Alright, I'm trying to keep up with your argument, but the only thing you keep commenting on is how bad everyone else we RDM's must be playing with. It's like the 10th time you mentioned that against multiple people in this discussion. Please, clue me in to this all-seeing eye of yours on how you are able to witness and pass judgment not only on the RDM's in this thread, but every person we play with? R u a wizrd?

Come to Odin and parse wish and I, prove your rdm is "good" otherwise don't talk. I'll fill you in as to why i think all RDM suck, because most of them DO SUCK. People full timing mage gear for melee, not gearswapping, not curing or hasting anyone but themselves, not debuffing, you know, the normal things a melee rdm does

Edit: Nice R u a wizrd attack, and to reply, yes I am a wizrd i studied at Hogwarts, you jelly?

[Rayik]

Moving to ad hominem attacks are we? Well that's hilarious since you had a much more hostile reply than I had for you. I'm not missing any points here, you're simply wrong. RDM has no place on the frontline, because bu your logic every single job should be meleeing because they have melee capabilities. By having a RDM on the frontline you subject them to debuffs/easily killed unless they have: PDT/MDT sets, are you willing to put the money out for those sets? Or do you expect your healer(hint, YOU have cure4) to just cure you so you can continue to melee? If i was in your party, and I was on whm I would let you die, and just ignore your crying because i let a DD die. You are aware that some mobs have TP moves that will one shot you, but not the other DDs, congratulations, you are now dead and people have to waste MP/time away from the fight to raise you, OR they wait until the fight is over, in which case you contributed nothing, maybe 1-2k dmg, but nothing that would have changed the course of the fight. You are also forgetting that some mobs have silence auras, making it stupid for you to melee because you constantly have to run in/out of range meaning you lose dmg.


Come to Odin and parse wish and I, prove your rdm is "good" otherwise don't talk. I'll fill you in as to why i think all RDM suck, because most of them DO SUCK. People full timing mage gear for melee, not gearswapping, not curing or hasting anyone but themselves, not debuffing, you know, the normal things a melee rdm does

Edit: Nice R u a wizrd attack, and to reply, yes I am a wizrd i studied at Hogwarts, you jelly?

Ok pal, I'm not the one screaming "stop playing with crap DD! Stop meleeing! U SUCK!" every other post. Your arguments are baseless. You have no idea how I play, and no idea whom I play with. And a parse? Seriously? You haven't read a single word I said. Why would I parse against a DD when I've said, multiple times, RDM melee doesn't compare with a dedicated DD. Wow man, you're not even trying.

But yeah, every job should be in he front line when they have:

Capped weapon skill over 335(before gear and merits)
Access to haste-capping gear
Access to at least a critical WS like Evisceration
Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

Even if I'm meleeing in a party, I'm keeping buffs up and helping cure. Hell, I've main-healed parties and helped melee in trash xp parties, no problem; all DD's Hasted and mages Refreshed. Maybe all the RDM's you played with didn't do that. Sucks for you and they suck for not contributing to the party.

Trash players who don't help the party or gear swap are not RDM specific; they are just trash players.

[Aurara]

Ok pal, I'm not the one screaming "stop playing with crap DD! Stop meleeing! U SUCK!" every other post. Your arguments are baseless. You have no idea how I play, and no idea whom I play with. And a parse? Seriously? You haven't read a single word I said. Why would I parse against a DD when I've said, multiple times, RDM melee doesn't compare with a dedicated DD. Wow man, you're not even trying.

Your obvious sarcasm isn't helping to your argument, in fact you are making yourself look very foolish. So telling people to stop playing with crap DD is wrong? Should people just play with crap players and brag about how awesome melee rdm is? How are my arguments baseless? I simply said RDM has no place in the front lines, take it or leave it. Oh and how foolish of me to ask you to parse yourself, i ask Hyrist the same thing and he's ignored both wish and I, oops lol next time i wont be so silly :3

But yeah, every job should be in he front line when they have:

Capped weapon skill over 335(before gear and merits)
Access to haste-capping gear
Access to at least a critical WS like Evisceration
Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

Congrats you just described whm, which does a better job of DD/curing the party than rdm does, bravo.

Even if I'm meleeing in a party, I'm keeping buffs up and helping cure. Hell, I've main-healed parties and helped melee in trash xp parties, no problem; all DD's Hasted and mages Refreshed. Maybe all the RDM's you played with didn't do that. Sucks for you and they suck for not contributing to the party.

Just because YOU can do it doesn't make it good.

[Rayik]

Your obvious sarcasm isn't helping to your argument, in fact you are making yourself look very foolish. So telling people to stop playing with crap DD is wrong? Should people just play with crap players and brag about how awesome melee rdm is? How are my arguments baseless? I simply said RDM has no place in the front lines, take it or leave it. Oh and how foolish of me to ask you to parse yourself, i ask Hyrist the same thing and he's ignored both wish and I, oops lol next time i wont be so silly :3

That's like a Marine challenging a Communications Officer to a wrestling match. A dedicated DD will blow RDM out of the water damage-wise, which is why a parse is pointless. A RDM can contribute damage, but will never be a good absolute source of it. What part of this are you not getting? You are saying there's no place for it, which is fine for your opinion, and my opinion is that there can be a place for it. Let's agree to disagree.

Congrats you just described whm, which does a better job of DD/curing the party than rdm does, bravo.

Sad part is, you are absolutely right about this. Well, except for some newer gear(Calmecac Trousers and Atheling Mantle are fun). The fact that a WHM can currently out-damage a RDM is a serious point of contention, and part of why there are so many threads about this topic in the first place.

[Supersun]

You are aware that some mobs have TP moves that will one shot you, but not the other DDs

What the hell is this?

First off every job should be carrying a PDT/MDT set if he wants to stand close to any dangerous mob. Hell, every mage should have an idle set regardless (which usually includes PDT unless there's a piece that gives Refresh).

Red Mage probably doesn't even need an MDT set (it would be the first thing I would drop with inventory issues). I mean we have Shell 5 and an innately have more magic defense then most jobs equip.

And believe it or not, Rdm can reach the 50% PDT cap pretty easy.

And since when does a Red Mage die easier the other melees? The only advantage DD jobs are going to have over Rdm (or hell, any mage in general) is a slightly more defense.

And unless you are a Monk other DDs won't even have more HP then us because we get this spell called stoneskin that essentially increases our HP by 460.

Sure DDs can get some defensive traits like counter, third eye, ect... but you must be high if you think those are even worth mentioning against a job that can cap the recast to utsusemi and cast it faster then you can blink.

Not to mention that even if we do get hurt it's not like meleeing suddenly strips us of our cure spells. In fact we have the most MP efficient cure spell in the game that is only castable on ourselves.

Really, the only time a DD is more survivable then a Red Mage is when the DDs HP is 6k, has a counter rate of 70%+, and has his own personal dual boxed whm with Minikin standing behind him.

Unfortunately though, the future of XI lies outside of abyssea and calling DD jobs more survivable then most mage jobs in general just shows that you should play with better mages.

[Aurara]

What the hell is this?

First off every job should be carrying a PDT/MDT set if he wants to stand close to any dangerous mob. Hell, every mage should have an idle set regardless (which usually includes PDT unless there's a piece that gives Refresh).

Yeah except a majority of people don't carry idle/MDT/PDT sets.

Red Mage probably doesn't even need an MDT set (it would be the first thing I would drop with inventory issues). I mean we have Shell 5 and an innately have more magic defense then most jobs equip.

If you're soloing you wont cap MDT with just shell V.

And believe it or not, Rdm can reach the 50% PDT cap pretty easy.

I have a PDT set and an MDT set on rdm, so yes I am aware.

And since when does a Red Mage die easier the other melees? The only advantage DD jobs are going to have over Rdm (or hell, any mage in general) is a slightly more defense.

They die easier because they dont carry those sets and melee in crap mage gear lol

And unless you are a Monk other DDs won't even have more HP then us because we get this spell called stoneskin that essentially increases our HP by 460.

I know, I have rdm. But if you're trying to argue that stoneskin will save you every time you're misguided, mobs CAN TP multiple times in a row you know.

Sure DDs can get some defensive traits like counter, third eye, ect... but you must be high if you think those are even worth mentioning against a job that can cap the recast to utsusemi and cast it faster then you can blink.

Any job can cap recasts with marchx2 and haste, all RDM has is fastcast, which is extremely nice for soloing, but don't think rdm gets some exclusive thing where it can cap recasts only. Also casting shadows lowers your DoT sooooo...

Not to mention that even if we do get hurt it's not like meleeing suddenly strips us of our cure spells. In fact we have the most MP efficient cure spell in the game that is only castable on ourselves.

Regen? or Cure4, because i'm pretty sure cure 4 can be cast on others! and Regen....lol that's castable on others too!

Really, the only time a DD is more survivable then a Red Mage is when the DDs HP is 6k, has a counter rate of 70%+, and has his own personal dual boxed whm with Minikin standing behind him.

RDM is pretty powerful, but it's still worthless compared to a DD on the frontline.

Unfortunately though, the future of XI lies outside of abyssea and calling DD jobs more survivable then most mage jobs in general just shows that you should play with better mages.

All my mages i play with have PDT/MDT/Idle sets