Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I thought that you didn't want to go the "naked job" route?

Didn't Greatguardian already pointed out how weak of a melee SMN is compared to actual DD jobs, even when the melee SMN is geared fully and the DD is naked (only weapon)?

Besides, WHM and RDM are both much better melees than SMN, even before ToAU....

What if the DD is a naked thf w/o a weapon doing H2H? lol

[Korpg]

What if the DD is a naked thf w/o a weapon doing H2H? lol

Well, if you compare the damage output of a melee SMN decked out against a naked DD using their weakest weapon....yeah, I would say that the damage is about equal...

Have to ask the math wiz for that though.

[Merton9999]

RDM is not a magic swordsman. You know how I know that? I've played FFV.

BLU is not a swordsman. You know how I know that? I’ve played FFVI.
SCH is not a manipulator of weather. You know how I know that? I’ve played FFIII.
DNC should be wielding carpets as weapons. You know how I know that? I’ve played FFT.

Oh, and RDM is a swordsman. You know how I know that? I’ve played FFI. I hit Fight a lot more in that game than I did the magic commands…

Seriously, wearing your experience with a previous FF installment like a badge and pretending it should be the canonical blueprint by which a job is FFXI should be designed is pointless. At best, it's an artificial way to turn your preference into an objective principle. It’s quite obvious that BLU, DNC, SCH and RDM have a combination of skills from previous FF games. The idea that one should be stressed over another simply because the job name matches another game is indefensible.

I don’t care about RDM melee. But I certainly wouldn’t be offended if SE buffed it. In fact, if you look at the ideas on the RDM melee threads, most people are suggesting a stance concept that allows RDM melee to be valuable while still allowing the option to play the job the way it currently functions. How is that ruinous?

The problem is SE already gave us a spell-casting swordsman. They already gave us a job that applies its melee buffs to other front-liners. They already gave us a way to self SC with a spell and WS. RDMs were asking for these things when the job was suddenly made party-friendly through the addition of a party-targetable spell that didn’t use any of RDM’s skills. But why give them to a job that everyone already leveled? It made a lot more sense to introduce magic-melee abilities to new jobs that would sell expansion packs and require years of monthly payments to fully develop.

I have a feeling SE is not basing RDM on FFV. I think they are basing it in part on ongoing subscriptions. This is why I expect the vision statement for RDM to be carried out over melee enhancements or anything that discourages leveling BLU, SCH, or any currently unpopular job that got abilities long-suggested for RDM.

And honestly I’m fine with it. If enfeebling becomes valuable on HNMs, I’ll be happy. If new party-target buffs are added, I’ll simply look at the rather well-designed RDM AF3 on my mannequin for the rest of my time here.

For the quick magic ability, I’ll suggest it be party-targetable. Give me a way to let a tank have 0 recast on shadows, let my WHM get R3 off instantly, etc. That could be fun. It would go a lot farther in the direction of turning my party members into demi-gods than Haste and Refresh II, and would certainly be a lot more interesting than another cycle spell.

[Leonlionheart]

Like the post above, SE is trying to do what they think the player base wants.

In case you haven't noticed 90% of what people say out loud is complaining in this world. So it's reasonable to say that you are only hearing complaining, but there is probably quite a large portion of people (More than will read this thread, or visit the forums) that are quite happy with the way RDM, DRK, and SMN are going, but they are content so why make a ruckus?

If FFXI Forums is TL;DR for you: There's a LOT more motivation to complain than there is to be grateful.

[Duelle]

But why give them to a job that everyone already leveled? It made a lot more sense to introduce magic-melee abilities to new jobs that would sell expansion packs and require years of monthly payments to fully develop.

If we were still in 2005, I would be inclined to agree with you.

This is why I expect the vision statement for RDM to be carried out over melee enhancements or anything that discourages leveling BLU, SCH, or any currently unpopular job that got abilities long-suggested for RDM.

This is a false assumption. Red Mage being melee-worthy won't discourage people from leveling Blue Mage or Scholar. Their giving those classes things that were suggested for Red Mage and said classes still being not very popular is a sign that maybe they should try working on Red Mage instead of wasting developer resources/time and annoying people in the same process.

[Leonlionheart]

This is a false assumption. Red Mage being melee-worthy viable won't discourage people from leveling Blue Mage or Scholar. Their giving those classes things that were suggested for Red Mage and said classes still being not very popular is a sign that maybe they should try working on Red Mage instead of wasting developer resources/time and annoying people in the same process.

To balance RDM:

get rid of spells

add in swift blade.

Now RDM can do what you want it to!

[Seriha]

In case you haven't noticed 90% of what people say out loud is complaining in this world. So it's reasonable to say that you are only hearing complaining, but there is probably quite a large portion of people (More than will read this thread, or visit the forums) that are quite happy with the way RDM, DRK, and SMN are going, but they are content so why make a ruckus?

Bit of a catch 22. If a job is incapable of playing a way acceptable to the masses, and in turn people never try (or get to try) knowing that, then of course nobody will play that way (or get ridiculed to hell and back for trying). See the old days of lolDRG, lolPUP, etc.. Now, you don't see the sane RDMs asking to match a WAR as a physical DD. However, asking for viability given the job concept is a bit different than people suddenly trying to demand THF be a main healer with no native healing magics or other party friendly abilities to that effect. At present, RDMs are pretty much told to do it solo or on things that don't matter, which is basically the detractors saying your desires don't matter since once you hit 90 and start chasing endgame gear, such things "matter" to some degree.

So, really, if the job you care for is delegated to nothing more than glacier's pace solo play or tinkering in older content that's no challenge at present, I can't say it makes for the most enjoyable of MMO experiences. Either way, the DD rat race is something 19 jobs are gonna fall short on, and those 19 jobs deserve unique, meaningful, and themely aspects to have them around in any situation. Clinging to some semblance of history isn't a bad thing since it's ultimately what makes this a Final Fantasy game and not Generic Medieval Fantasy MMO #23473.

[Korpg]

However, asking for viability given the job concept is a bit different than people suddenly trying to demand THF be a main healer with no native healing magics or other party friendly abilities to that effect.

Sorry, but I think this is funny how you mention this.

Asking a THF to main heal is just about the same as asking a SMN to main heal. Both have no native healing magics (BP:Ws don't count) but they are asked to do so just the same.

a THF/DNC mainheal is just as viable as a SMN/WHM main heal, just saying.

[Greatguardian]

Hexa Strike, Reverant Mail, Seawolf Cudgel, and Sea Robber Cudgel want to have a word with you

WHM is a significantly stronger melee than SMN. But it's fairly obvious he's just trolling this thread by comparing SMN+Avatar to mages who don't cast spells.

[Merton9999]

This is a false assumption. Red Mage being melee-worthy won't discourage people from leveling Blue Mage or Scholar. Their giving those classes things that were suggested for Red Mage and said classes still being not very popular is a sign that maybe they should try working on Red Mage instead of wasting developer resources/time and annoying people in the same process.

It's false for you but fits my personal experience exactly. And at best I think you've pointed out a correlation here, but the causation side would be an endless abyss of debate I won't continue. I can only say what I've experienced. The only reason I bothered with BLU and DNC is because they played like I always hoped RDM would. I lost count how many times I've heard "I love BLU! It's what RDM should have been!" and "I love DNC! It's would RDM should have been!" Anecdotal of course, but it's my experience. If RDM became a valuable melee job, I'd love it. And I'd drop BLU and DNC forever. Dang, maybe I should fight for this - I need a 9 month hiatus.