Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

[Leonlionheart]

They conveniently forget the multitude of melee buffs that SMN gets to choose from. They forget the 2hand bonus that puts SMN that far ahead of WHM or RDM to start, and the avatar that provides the best meat shield any melee mage could hope for (one that you'd sooner ditch than heal). Nope, SMN isn't supposed to touch melee...

Solo farming, SMN wipes the floor with most jobs. I'll admit though, only a half-dozen jobs appear to be up to the challenge. Haters gonna hate.

On topic, SMN appears to be going full-tilt MP drain. It will be fun to watch how many SMN scramble to find more mp.

In this thread Ballad III+II and Refresh don't give back up to 18 MP/tick. Refresh II would make that 22. Evoker's Roll could make it 26. Auto-Refresh means 28. Gear means up to 33.

In this thread you can't sub RDM and use convert.

In this thread you can't even use elemental syphon.

In this thread MP is hard.

[Diemond]

I'm glad SE is giving me the chance to let me think they are listening to my 2 cents about the jobs I love/play.
DRG
every jump should have its own timer. this will enhance drg DD capability and make the jumps more of a for front of the job.
Parry rate for lance should be higher
Wyvern
implement a slot system for wyvern like the one for pup's. I would love to armor up my little guy. using synergy to create armor with various color options to personalize our partners. give our wyvern 4-6 slots to add pieces that have benefits such as: add HP, add DEF, add double att, add magic def, enhance wyvern breath....etc

being that wyverns are flying creatures. I would like to see them stop taking damage from ground strike type aoe's. this also goes for drg's in mid highjump and soul jump

NIN
add a perfect parry stance
increase evasion for HNM's (bringing back nin tanks)
but i guess the real prob is magic absolutely rapes nin, so increased mag evasion or def wouldn't hurt
the nin 2hr should have been changed at day 1. how about making it where our shadows do dmg until they are struke down. and as long as our 2hr is active re-summoned shadows continue to do dmg.

SMN
an ability to shed hate to avatars
decreased BP timers is a must, but the penalty to giving up mp is bad. since the decrease in timer is a double edged sword. where we run out of mp even faster while we still struggle to decide which buffs the party need and be able to get in 1 damaging BP and keep party members buffed.
Pheonix would be a much better add than both atamos and catsith. with the ability to raise in an area effect not just party members. which would be awesome for besieged, campaigns..etc

Sch
give libra the ability to tell monsters weaknesses. make libra a shout instead of a say.
the storm effects should give auras that add increased att, increased def, double att.....etc. and if players are struke with an element spell or WS opposing there aura they take more dmg.

I stopped playing last year. But the idea SE might use some of our ideas had me reactivate my character just to post. So don't let me down SE!

[Dallas]

Anything more evasive both are either switching to pizza/sushi anyway/Rdm can use Dex Shamshir putting them within approx. ~5-10 of Smn's accuracy.

I was talking about naked RDM vs naked SMN because I was hoping you ignore me enough for me to get to smack you with this one twice.

...And then the SMN pulls out one of their many accuracy buffs and/or evasion debuffs... SNAP! 30-60 accuracy difference.

EDIT: the best melee mage was always SMN, then SE released BLU.

[Neisan_Quetz]

... Okay, so we can agree you're just retarded and don't read at all.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

EDIT: the best melee mage was always SMN, then SE released BLU.

Blu doesn't count as it is a melee job with MP, such as pld. You're just cunfused because it has mage in the name. Besides, whm always had better melee dmg.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Sure, someone was bound to get the short end of the stick

You think healing, enhancing, enfeebling, CC, and possibly also nuking are "the short end of the stick" and "demeaning, to say the least" and yet you expect to be taken seriously on how to design and balance a hybrid?

If you want a DD job, there are lots of them. Tons. Oodles. A glut, even. Go level one. Please. If you level BLU you can swing a sword and also do lots of damage. If you level DRK you can swing an even bigger sword and do damage with even less spellcasting. RDM doesn't need to be a clone of either of those jobs, and it doesn't need to be swinging a sword 100% or even a majority of the time, either.

RDM is not a magic swordsman. You know how I know that? I've played FFV. A game in which there is an actual magic swordsman job (it's even called "magic swordsman" in Japanese, IIRC). And also RDM. They play nothing alike. RDM is much more magic oriented. RDMs use a sword only when they have nothing better to do or want to avoid spending MP. Sword mages have enaspir, so running out of MP isn't that big a problem -- but they don't have ANY regular magic. So they can only usefully cast one spell at a time and then have to swing the sword to get that spell to do anything. (This takes a minimum of 2 turns, so pairing them with a time mage is highly recommended.)

I actually kind of wish that job existed in FFXI, but RDM isn't it and never will be (and can't be -- there's a reason magic swordsman has no other magic except through the equivalent of subjob). The weak enspells that exist in this game are nowhere near the power of real sword magic, but at the same time, RDM is nowhere near as sword-focused as FFV sword mages. Swords are an option, but not always the best option.

If magic swordsman did ever exist in this game, it would have an A in sword (or possibly greatsword) and enhancing and probably no other magic skills or spells except through SJ (and probably wouldn't sub mages much anyway, since it would actually be a melee job - NIN or DNC for 1h swords or SAM for 2h would probably be more useful). *That* job would belong on the front lines most of the time. RDM usually doesn't.

Your idea of what you want RDM to be is not what RDM is, ever has been (in this game or any of its predecessors), or most likely, ever will be. Please accept that and find a job more suited to what you want to do and stop trying to ruin a versatile magic-oriented (and endurance/control-oriented) hybrid job for people who enjoy playing it.

[Leonlionheart]

EDIT: the best melee mage was always SMN, then SE released BLU.

Hexa Strike, Reverant Mail, Seawolf Cudgel, and Sea Robber Cudgel want to have a word with you

[Seriha]

RDM doesn't need to be a clone of either of those jobs, and it doesn't need to be swinging a sword 100% or even a majority of the time, either.

Yet it's okay to be a WHM clone? Prior to this manifesto, the following found here is the best we can assess of SE's early vision of RDM:

Red Mage:
These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

Nothing about slapping a staff to your back and hanging in the rear. Yes, we know healers and/or support jobs are typically in short supply in any MMO because they're often unfun to play and the first criticized when things go wrong with a group. There's no mistaking players perverted the intent of Refresh and Convert, something that could initially keep a RDM from having to rest and losing TP, into brute force healing tactics. The above, considering how RDMs have been viewed for the better part of a decade, is rather bluntly inaccurate and borderline SE lying to people interested in the job.

Now, the recent vision blurb is just icing on that "SE doesn't have a clue!" cake. RDMs do not buff people to demi-god status. While they at least acknowledge the faults of enfeebling and hint it becoming a more prominent feature for the job, it's still not hard to remain skeptical. As is, current enfeebles certainly aren't needed for the EXP game, which is the best place a RDM could possibly draw a weapon. However, assuming you could get into a group NOT as a healer, you're on a job that, for a long time now, has been statistically deficient in native traits and equipment to the point this aspect of versatility is never a consideration when people are building parties. Rather simply, people would prefer to wait for an accepted DD class to show up LFG than gamble on a RDM, who according to every melee hater you'll ever talk to, owns absolutely no melee gear beyond the weapon.

When it comes to enfeebling, marrying it to melee is not outside the realm of possibility (See: Dancer). While I can't see this an approach SE is willing to take given the perpetual ignorance on the issue, it could be done, and people could like it if it's done right. Which is pretty much the problem. People hate RDM melee because SE didn't build them right.

[Korpg]

I was talking about naked RDM vs naked SMN because I was hoping you ignore me enough for me to get to smack you with this one twice.

...And then the SMN pulls out one of their many accuracy buffs and/or evasion debuffs... SNAP! 30-60 accuracy difference.

EDIT: the best melee mage was always SMN, then SE released BLU.

I thought that you didn't want to go the "naked job" route?

Didn't Greatguardian already pointed out how weak of a melee SMN is compared to actual DD jobs, even when the melee SMN is geared fully and the DD is naked (only weapon)?

Besides, WHM and RDM are both much better melees than SMN, even before ToAU....

[Duelle]

You think healing, enhancing, enfeebling, CC, and possibly also nuking are "the short end of the stick" and "demeaning, to say the least" and yet you expect to be taken seriously on how to design and balance a hybrid?

When your class is sold as a hybrid, implying choice in roles and flexibility, and said hybrid turns out to be nothing more than a support bot and healer instead, it indeed is the short end of the stick. When you're told your class is part caster, part melee, and then you find yourself casting cures and buffs as they are the only thing of value in a party, that is indeed demeaning.

I would be fine if RDM A (geared and set up for melee) got to stand in the front and swing and RDM B (who enjoys a different playstyle and gears for it) gets to cast and support. I'd be ecstatic if RDM C, after getting the needed gear for it, got to tank. And even more if RDM D, with the proper subs and gear, got to focus on nuking (you know, like SCH gets to do should the player choose to). That's how you design a hybrid. Not with half-powered traits, next to no JAs, casting limitations to create busywork, the mother of all bad gimmicks to create a party slot for the class (refresh), and more than just a handful of oversights in design that go unfixed and uncorrected for the sake of passing them off as class "features" (genbu-soloing).

If you want a DD job, there are lots of them.

Turning your eyes away from the problem does not make the problem go away. Doesn't work in real life, and certainly doesn't work in-game.

If you level BLU you can swing a sword and also do lots of damage.

Monster magic and a scimitar don't equate to magic fencer. It was a poor attempt to fill the void without actually fixing the problem. Then it turned into its own thing, as we so clearly see now.

If you level DRK you can swing an even bigger sword and do damage with even less spellcasting.

DRK is a completely different beast and should not be part of this exchange of words. Hell, as a DRK main I'm a little offended to see it included in the context of Red Mage.

RDM is not a magic swordsman. You know how I know that? I've played FFV. A game in which there is an actual magic swordsman job (it's even called "magic swordsman" in Japanese, IIRC).

RDM is also not an enfeebler. I know that because FFTactics had a real enfeebler class that was called Oracle/Mystic/Ying Yang Mage. RDM is also not a buffer, because Tactics Advance 2 (and XII to an extent) had a buff-focused job called Green Mage. See where I'm going with this?

You're trying to argue semantics based on names rather than looking at the archetypes. The console FFs love filling themselves with classes based on other classes or splitting archetypes into pieces because console games can afford to do that sort of thing. This goes back to my "certain things that work in console FFs don't work in MMORPGs" bit.

Speaking of which, 魔法剣士, or Mystic Knight as we know it here, was basically a black mage replacement with a sword and a limited spell selection. Not exactly anywhere close to a flexible hybrid, rather a BLM without the cast times. It's already been used and debunked as part of the anti-melee camp's argument against the melee camp, so please let us not go down that route.

I actually kind of wish that job existed in FFXI, but RDM isn't it and never will be (and can't be -- there's a reason magic swordsman has no other magic except through the equivalent of subjob). The weak enspells that exist in this game are nowhere near the power of real sword magic, but at the same time, RDM is nowhere near as sword-focused as FFV sword mages.

We're not asking for the ability to cast Flare through a sword. I'm also aware of the damage V's version of Spellblade was capable of, and how that wouldn't fit into a hybrid's design without some toning down and limitations--which I am perfectly fine with.

Your idea of what you want RDM to be is not what RDM is, ever has been (in this game or any of its predecessors), or most likely, ever will be. Please accept that and find a job more suited to what you want to do and stop trying to ruin a versatile magic-oriented (and endurance/control-oriented) hybrid job for people who enjoy playing it.

Based on what evidence? Fighter and Black Mage weren't bitching at Red Mage for swinging his sword in FF1. Bartz the Red Mage wasn't getting kicked from the party for not spamming refresh and haste because he spent his attack turn swinging in FFV. Ingus the Red Mage was not getting grief from Luneth for not being a dedicated healer so that Refia and Arc could go Monk and Black Mage respectively in FFIII. And none were crying about how the Red Mages' melee hurt their exp/hour and fed the mob TP or some other asinine argument to stick them to the back.

You're fine with the way the class currently plays. I can respect that, but also keep in mind that you are basically dismissing the melee camp despite the fact we're also playing the same class. We could be mutually supportive, but respect and acceptance goes both ways. Stop by our boards and read some of the discussions. Some are livid to see White Mage and Bard match or out-perform us in melee. Others want melee buffs or utility tied to melee, and then you have crazies like me that would not mind a full redesign if it meant the melee camp and the backliners both got what they wanted out of the class.

Hybrid implies choice in terms of class design. The choice isn't there, and has not been there since CoP.