Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

[Sparthos]

Benthic, the new Cannonball.

[Korpg]

Just as accurate too!

Edit: well, without /THF that is....

[Kwate]

As BLU/THF, give me Vanity Dive. BT is ok as well (inventory space is too taxing for an effective AGI build), but since I have DEX builds for CDC and CW farming VD tends to be a hot spell to use. 5~8k SACA/EFF

[Leonlionheart]

I didn't know people still subbed THF...

BLU's spike damage is good, but I'm pretty sure good DPS is better.

[Supersun]

Spike damage tends to be slightly less...TP feedy though.

It has its uses...just that use hasn't arisen since like 2004

[Duelle]

Almace does make Red Mage melee better, a lot better. And that happens to help bring it up from what people consider "Unacceptably bad" to "Acceptably good enough".

You're still not seeing the difference between strengthen what is there and make something exist from nothingness. RDM melee pre-Almace is not even on the table. That's what basically needs to change. You'd have a decent argument if across all levels we had RDMs in melee gear getting invites to melee instead of the lolrefreshplz thing. Then you can make the claim that Almace simply boosts RDM melee, and I'd agree with you 100%.

There is no game design fault here. People are simply considerably less inclined to give gimps free reign to do whatever the hell they want in a group and just assume that they're contributing what they need to contribute. If you came up to me in full teal and a joyeuse and told me you were a DD-only who refused to cast any magic spells because it would detract from your super freaking awesome savage blade damage, I'd tell you to get lost.

Despite having more than full teal and a joyeuse, I've still been told to heal or gtfo. I'm not super geared, and I'll be the first one to admit it, but I understand the concept of wearing melee gear to melee. Sadly, that's not enough to justify front-lining because a caster-based RDM is much more valuable to the group in the current game (I'll get to the mechanics part of all this soon enough, by the way), hence why I'm so adamant about a needed change to give front-liners and back-liners both what they want out of the class instead of leaving the melee camp as some outcast that is pretty much "redeemed" by one weapon.

If you came up to me rocking an Almace/Khanda or Almace/Fleuret combo with a capped Haste TP set and legit macros, and asked me if I wouldn't mind you melee'ing if you were capable of doing so while also performing and prioritizing the magical functions that I invited you for, more freaking power to you.

This is another issue, and as a part of that problem, you don't seem to realize it. The short version, though, is as follows: I shouldn't have to beg you for permission to melee.

It'd be one thing if class dynamics allowed me to be more open and look for group or join a group while stating that I'm melee-focused. Then I'd be fine with a party leader telling me something like "sorry, we're looking for back-line support" or "we're actually looking for heals". It'd be even nicer if there was some obvious distinction between the melee'ers and the back-liners (in before "one is bad, one is good lolz"). We may not have fancy titles like Elemental, Retribution, Enhancing, Feral Combat or Balance, but we do have the job/subjob combos to go by.

If you want to do whatever you want (be it melee or whatever, I don't even care), be good enough at it that you're not a total leech on me and everyone else with me. Because it's very possible within the game to do so.

You're contradicting yourself, since you put emphasis in melee with the "normal" buff duties attached then hint you'd be alright as long as one is "good" enough.

Part of what I mentioned above is connected to the "people problem", which you seem to hint is enough to dismiss the claims of the melee camp. What you have not acknowledged is that the "people problem" comes about and is affected by game mechanics. The same thing that created the "people problem" for PLDs when NIN tanking took over, the same "people problem" (admittedly combined with really bad PR) that DRGs suffered under when they were considered gimp, the same "people problem" that ousted WHM from healing in parties during TAU, the same "people problem" that sentenced BST for years of solo play, the same "people problem" that condemned SMN to playing /WHM before the developers got their heads out of the sand; and, yes, the same "people problem" that relegated melee as a solo toy for RDM.

I mention mechanics in terms of RDM melee because without proper in-game support (something beyond subjob and melee gear) it has proven to not be enough. You have issues with redundancy, which is specially devastating to the melee camp because what is currently expected of our job is to run refresh and haste cycles with enfeebling tacked on for variety. We can't do all that in the front because that takes away from the point of being in the front lines, not to mention that in its current incarnation a caster-focused RDM can do that much better with much less risk involved.

This is why I feel melee needs to have its own emphasized elements and reason for being in the party. Where some feel utility will be pivotal in saving us, I feel more damage and some front-exclusive utility (preferably on the enfeebling side with a couple of party-wide buffs to facilitate front-lining and for placebo purposes in the case of the nay-sayers) will do the trick. More melee gear and weapon skill access will also help. The main part of all this, however, is that this isn't something that should be tossed at RDM at a really late level in the game, but more something for a RDM to grow into as they level. I hope that it isn't that difficult to understand why the melee camp feels the way it feels, and why most of us just sighed in disdain when we saw SE yet again not even acknowledge our existence.

[Greatguardian]

You really don't seem to get that there is no arbitrary line between "Total crap" and "Good enough" except for what the observing player dictates. That's fine, though. I've come to expect that.

But really, I'm not sure I get why people are so concerned with pre-90 job dynamics. They are drastically different at 90 across the board with pretty much everybody anyways. Pre-75 Paladin is worlds different from Post-75 Paladin. The same is true for just about everybody else. There is no "growing into" phase that you have to hit in order to be able to do something at 90, because just about no one plays the same way at 90 as in EXP parties before 90.

That's still assuming that EXP parties exist, too. Abyssea leeching and Summoner burning are very real things, and many people will simply absolutely not play Red Mage from 30-90 at all. Does that mean they're going to be total crap at it? Absolutely not. But any weird little melee buff to RDM40 is not going to do a damn thing for just about 95% of the FFXI population.

But really, if someone invites a Red Mage to support, that is on the person doing the inviting. When you, or anyone, joins a group, you do what the group leader believes is in the best interest of the group, or you leave and get another group. If you have trouble finding groups because you want to do something that people feel is contrary to what you should be doing, then you're just going to have to deal with that. No amount of melee buffing to Red Mage is going to change people's mind about how much crap it is, or change the fact that what they want when they /sea all RDM is a support-class mage rather than yet another little pokey pokey stab stab.

If you have a group of friends that lets you melee, more power to you. But if you want to change the mind of the entire community, you're going to have to realize that it will never, ever happen as long as the average melee RDM remains so utterly horrible to be around. The average melee Rdm is absolutely useless. They'll show up to a group, and then refuse to cast spells. It's like "DD only Ninjas" who like sub Thf and refuse to cast Utsusemi because they're so unbelievably gimp/cheap that they can't afford bloody shihei. Your average melee Rdm makes everybody's life harder. They'll sit there and let people die despite having a full load of MP. They won't even Refresh the bloody White Mage, that is stuck Hasting them. And worst of all, they really do run around in full teal and a joyeuse and think they're doing jack bloody squat with their crappy enspell damage, 50% accuracy, 0% Haste gear, 300 attack, and 50 damage fast blades.

If you want people in the community to take melee Rdm seriously, provide examples of Red Mages who melee that don't freaking suck. Because, while the exceedingly rare one might exist, no one is ever going to invite a random Red Mage to a group and even entertain the possibility that they might be one of them.

Edit: Just to prove a point, Doombringer for example is one of the best melee Red Mages I've actually seen. And he still has a good chunk of gear he could improve on. He doesn't have a Zelus, and isn't using Goliard/ACP body. But he still only parsed like 40% of a comparably geared Monk despite getting March/Madrigal instead of March/March. If he's only parsing 40% in a situation where he's getting a buff advantage and barely doing any casting, people with weaker gear than him and/or people who're actually going to be casting spells are going to be contributing jack bloody squat.

[Dallas]

His wiki forums profile claims he's on Carbuncle, so we may yet escape his idiocy.

One thing we can be sure of, I'm not on Bahamut server.

[Duelle]

You really don't seem to get that there is no arbitrary line between "Total crap" and "Good enough" except for what the observing player dictates. That's fine, though. I've come to expect that.

The fact that the collective (or as you call it, "people") decreed our melee as useless in a party is enough of an indication of where we stand. Otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

But really, I'm not sure I get why people are so concerned with pre-90 job dynamics. They are drastically different at 90 across the board with pretty much everybody anyways. Pre-75 Paladin is worlds different from Post-75 Paladin. The same is true for just about everybody else. There is no "growing into" phase that you have to hit in order to be able to do something at 90, because just about no one plays the same way at 90 as in EXP parties before 90.

You seem to forget the pre-75 dynamics are what set our trends to stone when we started doing endgame. If you see class X doing something between lv10 when you started partying in the dunes all the way until you hit 75 to start grinding merits, then by god you're going to expect that class to continue doing as it exactly was for those 65 levels. It's even proven to work retroactively, with guys making NINs tank in the dunes despite the fact NIN tanking doesn't really work until you get Utsusemi Ni at 37.

That's still assuming that EXP parties exist, too. Abyssea leeching and Summoner burning are very real things, and many people will simply absolutely not play Red Mage from 30-90 at all. Does that mean they're going to be total crap at it? Absolutely not. But any weird little melee buff to RDM40 is not going to do a damn thing for just about 95% of the FFXI population.

You'd be surprised. There's people out there who, much like me, are stuck with irregular work schedules. This means I rarely see the same people twice when I do get a chance to log on. This means we try to party if time allows and spam FoV when possible.

But really, if someone invites a Red Mage to support, that is on the person doing the inviting. When you, or anyone, joins a group, you do what the group leader believes is in the best interest of the group, or you leave and get another group.

Which would be fine...if RDM was a real choice for a front-liner. This would mean that for every guy that is looking for a healer or buffer there's also a guy looking to fill a melee slot in his party that would be willing to take you. That's clearly not the case.

But if you want to change the mind of the entire community, you're going to have to realize that it will never, ever happen as long as the average melee RDM remains so utterly horrible to be around. The average melee Rdm is absolutely useless. They'll show up to a group, and then refuse to cast spells....Your average melee Rdm makes everybody's life harder. They'll sit there and let people die despite having a full load of MP. They won't even Refresh the bloody White Mage, that is stuck Hasting them.

Let's stop right there and look at performance relative to role before we continue.

1) Not casting spells.
2) Not casting emergency cures.
3) Not casting Refresh.
4) Not casting haste on themselves.

#1 I agree with complaining about that 100%. At the same time, I look at mechanics in the front line (of which none exist in the case of RDM) and do take into account how much melee time is lost while casting and whether that somehow makes up for the damage lost and thus lesser performance in the front lines.

#2 I agree with as well, but what I would love is something to facilitate off-healing in emergencies. Again, nothing exists for RDM in that regard. At least nothing built into the class to tell the player "this is what you do when you want to heal someone in an emergency".

#3 I'll concede on if and only if Refresh is changed to a long duration spell (I'm talking 10 minutes baseline) when the Red Mage is in melee. An alternative would be for Refresh to proc on the party when the RDM uses a weapon skill, with the effect being maintained by the RDM hitting the target - only applicable while in the front lines, of course. Cycle spells have no place in the front lines.

#4 See my reply to #3. I admit, it's a pain to constantly rebuff, and it's the reason I suggested Readiness (basically cast 4 buffs on yourself at the same time) in the melee thread.

To continue, I'm of the mind enfeebling in particular could be tied into melee in a way unique to RDM (using RDM's own enfeebling magic in a different way). Elemental magic could be tied to RDM melee as well to give some use to those spells available to us. That way you reap certain benefits from a front line RDM and get different benefits from a back line RDM. A very rough idea, though I do have my proposed redesign sitting around here somewhere...

Just to prove a point, Doombringer for example is one of the best melee Red Mages I've actually seen. And he still has a good chunk of gear he could improve on. He doesn't have a Zelus, and isn't using Goliard/ACP body. But he still only parsed like 40% of a comparably geared Monk despite getting March/Madrigal instead of March/March. If he's only parsing 40% in a situation where he's getting a buff advantage and barely doing any casting, people with weaker gear than him and/or people who're actually going to be casting spells are going to be contributing jack bloody squat.

I saw the parses as well. All I got from that is that the damage, as I have mentioned before, needs a buff. On your comment about casting, I'll say it is also testament to the fact the melee and caster sides of RDM do not play nice with each other.

And, saving this one for last:

No amount of melee buffing to Red Mage is going to change people's mind about how much crap it is, or change the fact that what they want when they /sea all RDM is a support-class mage rather than yet another little pokey pokey stab stab.

A bold claim, but I'll be happy to counter.

There once was a class that happened to be in the exact same pickle RDM has been in for years. Toward whom people reacted the exact same way whenever melee was brought up. With very similar design (sword & magic hybrid, limited healing capability, buffs, utility right out of the box, even some real defensive moves), and the same shortcomings (low damage compared to the "real" front-liners, ease in being pigeonholed to buffbot and healer, little in-game support for a melee-oriented playstyle). Whose melee camp was called selfish for not wanting to sit pretty and let the "real heroes" stand in the front lines while they wore dresses and hung back with the priests. Whose melee camp also went to great lengths to argue for their style of play, and faced major resistance not only from players of other classes, but also players within their own class. Sound familiar?

Anyway, the melee buffs came and went. And you know what happened? It was suddenly okay for them to melee in groups. If you chose to front line and were geared for it, you were more than welcome to swing your weapon; hell, you didn't have to wear best-in-slot gear or wielding legendaries for people to accept you melee'ing things. The guys that liked healing and buffing got to continue doing so, while the melee camp happily did what they had wanted to do all along. It was a win for everyone.

So please, don't tell me it's impossible, because I was there when it happened. Hence my constant mentioning that RDM's issues aren't exclusive to this game. The first thing that came to mind when I saw it turn out the way it did was "this is the idea SE should follow to fix RDM".

[Urteil]

Does anyone else find it rather ironic and insulting that SE has such a huge boner for DRK casting magic, and they haven't even pulled down the zipper on their pants so to speak:

And given us magic attack bonus I?

Just sayin'.