On Red Mage melee...

[Karbuncle]

Okay, I don't like touching RDM melee, Its a taboo, But truthfully even if it never becomes main-stream its always nice to imagine, right? Not that I would cry one way or the other.


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Job Traits
RDM30 - "Combat Wisdom" (this is my favorite Idea)
Tiers-30/50/70/90/99
*Raises Enspell Damage, Increases Stats based on Current Enspell
**Raises Enspell Damage by 3 Points per stage. Increases Stat Related to Element by 5 Each Stage. (i.E Enfire gives STR+5, Enthunder gives DEX+5, This would make Enspells useful even not in combat, Say cast En-water on yourself for a MND boost for debuff Potency, or EN-blizzard for Nuke Potency, Even if you're using Staff/what-have-you!. This adds a new level of uses for Enspells. Even if you're not meleeing!)


RDM55 "Swordsmanship"
Tiers 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, and Critical hit Damage when wielding a Sword.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***PLD would get this too at a lower level.

RDM55 - "Dagger mastery"
teirs 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, Critical hit Damage when wielding a Dagger.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***THF would get this too at Lower Levels (15/30/45/60/75/90). and DNC. (35/60/85)

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Job Abilities

RDM:55
"Magic Fencer"
*Increases Accuracy and Attack in proportion to Enspell damage. Extends Duration of Enspells. Enspells effects by Magic Attack Bonus
**Every 2 Damage your spell does = 1 Acc. Caculated by Base damage before Resists. (I.E if your spells would do 30 dmg before resist, you get +15acc/atk. regardless of spell being resisted)
**Increases enspell Duration by 50%. Stacks with other Buffs.
**Self-Explanitory
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Magic

Enspell Teir III!
*Deals Elemental damage. Deals a Set damage of 30dmg/swing. Enhancing Magic for these spells now occasionally Augments the spells to do Double Damage. Capped enhanced gives you about a 5% Chance to "Double Damage". Works on all hits. Every 10 Points of Enhancing Magic pas cap gives an additional "2%" chance to increase damage.

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And I'm done. really.

Can't say i realistically expecting anything above me to be implemented (bar maybe the very first idea), but at the same time, I'm not a giant RDM melee enthusiast, I think it has some places, But i also think FFXI seems to have made itself clear it doesn't care too much about that aspect of RDM (empyrean-hello -.-)

I like RDM how it is, I would welcome any improvement they gave us.

[Supersun]

Job Traits
RDM30 - "Combat Wisdom" (this is my favorite Idea)
Tiers-30/50/70/90/99
*Raises Enspell Damage, Increases Stats based on Current Enspell
**Raises Enspell Damage by 3 Points per stage. Increases Stat Related to Element by 5 Each Stage. (i.E Enfire gives STR+5, Enthunder gives DEX+5, This would make Enspells useful even not in combat, Say cast En-water on yourself for a MND boost for debuff Potency, or EN-blizzard for Nuke Potency, Even if you're using Staff/what-have-you!. This adds a new level of uses for Enspells. Even if you're not meleeing!)

Well 2 issues I can think of with this though they aren't very large issues.

First, this would pretty much only make a handful of elements useful. I mean who would ever use Enstone if it gives a VIt bonus.

Second, this just seems like Gain spell 2.0 that stack.

Taking this in a slightly different direction I might be up for a mix between this and one of Seriha's ideas where instead of the enspell increasing the base attribute it increasea the stat commonly associated with that attribute.

Earth: -DT%
Water: +MACC
Wind: +Subtle Blow
Fire: +ATK
Ice: +MATK
Thunder: +Crit

Now the numbers might need to be tossed around a bit as -25% PDT from just using enstone might be a bit much, but the numbers aren't as important as the ideas.

RDM55 "Swordsmanship"
Tiers 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, and Critical hit Damage when wielding a Sword.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***PLD would get this too at a lower level.

RDM55 - "Dagger mastery"
teirs 55/70/95
*Increases Attack, Critical hit Rate, Critical hit Damage when wielding a Dagger.
**Increases Attack by 5, Critical hit Rate by 3%, and Critical hit Damage by 3% per level.
***THF would get this too at Lower Levels (15/30/45/60/75/90). and DNC. (35/60/85)

Oddly enough my biggest gripe with these are the tiers that you gave to other jobs. I mean with Thf getting 6 tiers of this trait they would have an innate +18% crit hit bonus and a +26% crit hit damage. The crit hit becomes +23% if they sub war. I mean are you trying to give Thf a perma Razed Ruin outside of abyssea XD

Also I know crit hits are awesome and everything and are the only things that matter in abyssea, but moving forward there is plenty of room for other types of damage to thrive. This really just seems like a slightly different version of Fencer. I mean this buff does seem to be more intended for the other jobs that receive it other then Rdm and that's fine, but I personally hope to see Rdm grow in a different direction then critical hit WS spam.

RDM:55
"Magic Fencer"
*Increases Accuracy and Attack in proportion to Enspell damage. Extends Duration of Enspells. Enspells effects by Magic Attack Bonus
**Every 2 Damage your spell does = 1 Acc. Caculated by Base damage before Resists. (I.E if your spells would do 30 dmg before resist, you get +15acc/atk. regardless of spell being resisted)
**Increases enspell Duration by 50%. Stacks with other Buffs.
**Self-Explanitory

If they ever fixed the T2 enspells this would completely bust them though I get the impression you were planning to use them with the T3 versions mainly. The concept isn't bad and certainly has been tossed around where enspells should give stat bonuses (like Enlight and Endark), but these numbers might be a tad too high.

Other then that though I like it and hate it at the same time. It's certainly nice to get an attack and accuracy bonus from the enspells, but at the same time if there weren't enough Teal meleeing Rdms before there certainly will be now D: . There just aren't that many slots that we can afford to give up haste for more MAB.

Enspell Teir III!
*Deals Elemental damage. Deals a Set damage of 30dmg/swing. Enhancing Magic for these spells now occasionally Augments the spells to do Double Damage. Capped enhanced gives you about a 5% Chance to "Double Damage". Works on all hits. Every 10 Points of Enhancing Magic pas cap gives an additional "2%" chance to increase damage.

I think these might do slightly more then you expect. 30 + your JA that adds 15 + Fencer ring (5) + Hollow (3) = 53 enspell per hit. That gives +26 attack and accuracy with your last JA in addition to that number being affected by MAB (+28 MAB minimum).

In addition we can currently get ~+90 enhancing magic giving it a +23% chance to double its damage.

This would give it something like an average of 81 damage per attack round...That's...a lot.

[Karbuncle]

Well 2 issues I can think of with this though they aren't very large issues.

First, this would pretty much only make a handful of elements useful. I mean who would ever use Enstone if it gives a VIt bonus.

Well, More or less Resist Rates, Even if Enfire gave STR+25, You wouldn't use it on a Fire-Strong mob, The 25STR would not make up for the horrible loss in DoT for Enspell damage. That was my thoughts though. Honestly you can't make all Enspells useful, Even if you do like the "DT" thing you meantioned for Enstone, Most RDMs will default to Enstone simply to keep themselves alive, and to hell with their DoT, now the full Teal RDMs will be pumping out 2-dmg Enstone hits just so they don't die as fast?

Also, (This is below) about the "Gain Spell 2.0", Theres similarities between a lot of things in this game. Off the top of my head, Berserk and Last Resort. BRD song set bonus increases Stats pertaining to the songs element too (Stacks with Gain spells!)

Second, this just seems like Gain spell 2.0 that stack.

Taking this in a slightly different direction I might be up for a mix between this and one of Seriha's ideas where instead of the enspell increasing the base attribute it increasea the stat commonly associated with that attribute.

Earth: -DT%
Water: +MACC
Wind: +Subtle Blow
Fire: +ATK
Ice: +MATK
Thunder: +Crit

This is nice, I think Enthunder/Enstone would be the "ones used" most often in this set. Obv Enblizzard for Nuking (but then Again my idea would be about the same...) Wind would be used least often/never in that scenario. (same in mine!)

Sometimes its not about trying the best to give everything a use, But "balancing" it into simple, fair catagories. +? to stats would seem basic. In or outside Abyssea, +~30 to a Stat isn't going to make RDM overpowered, If anything, It will slightly level the playing field.

Now the numbers might need to be tossed around a bit as -25% PDT from just using enstone might be a bit much, but the numbers aren't as important as the ideas.

I agree, Numbers are generally thought up on the spot, Rarely thought goes into them (i explain that below on the whole "THF" thing you mentioned)


[quote](1)Oddly enough my biggest gripe with these are the tiers that you gave to other jobs. I mean with Thf getting 6 tiers of this trait they would have an innate +18% crit hit bonus and a +26% crit hit damage. The crit hit becomes +23% if they sub war. I mean are you trying to give Thf a perma Razed Ruin outside of abyssea XD

(2)Also I know crit hits are awesome and everything and are the only things that matter in abyssea, but moving forward there is plenty of room for other types of damage to thrive. This really just seems like a slightly different version of Fencer. I mean this buff does seem to be more intended for the other jobs that receive it other then Rdm and that's fine, but I personally hope to see Rdm grow in a different direction then critical hit WS spam.[quote]

(I'm breaking this up for my good, Not in a mocking way)

1) Yah, Like i said above >__> Rarely think out the numbers. Realistically I've always figured THF should be king of Criticals. I go overboard. Either way, RDM is basically "okay" at sword/Dagger, Its not the best at them (PLD and THF are respectively) so obviously it would get less tiers of the Sword/Dagger heavy Traits, but i feel they still deserve them. Ignoring the THF/PLD part, I think These aren't horrible... Maybe a little.

2) Critical hit rate and damage are still the best things ever, short of haste. Outside abyssea they're as good as inside. And if you think about it, Chant du Cygne and Vorpal blade are RDM's strongest Weaponskills, both heavily influenced by Critical hit Rate and Damage. While yes, Inside abyssea Critical hit rate/dmg is much more ... "big"? I don't know a word for it... Anyway, Given the same buffs, They're as good outside as Inside. I don't want perma RR (Yay not thinking things out D:!) but the best way to improve your DoT, other than haste and obv Dbl/trpl attack, is acc/atk and Crit hit rate/dmg.

I expect a haste job trait would be asking entirely too much, same for Dbl/trpl attack, So I figure the next best step is Crit/Acc/atk.

If they ever fixed the T2 enspells this would completely bust them though I get the impression you were planning to use them with the T3 versions mainly. The concept isn't bad and certainly has been tossed around where enspells should give stat bonuses (like Enlight and Endark), but these numbers might be a tad too high.

Other then that though I like it and hate it at the same time. It's certainly nice to get an attack and accuracy bonus from the enspells, but at the same time if there weren't enough Teal meleeing Rdms before there certainly will be now D: . There just aren't that many slots that we can afford to give up haste for more MAB.

I honestly completely gave up on them Fixing Teir II Enspells. So i assume they're dead and suck. I agree numbers may be too high, again, The ideas are where i thrive, balancing them with Proper numbers i fail miserably.

Secondly, Its more of a balancing Act, you obviously want full Haste, but at the same time, your Natural MAB Job traits will help on Enspell damage. You dont necessarily need to "MAB Build" around it, Just your traits would take effect for it. Its like adding a small free-bonus.

I think these might do slightly more then you expect. 30 + your JA that adds 15 + Fencer ring (5) + Hollow (3) = 53 enspell per hit. That gives +26 attack and accuracy with your last JA in addition to that number being affected by MAB (+28 MAB minimum).

In addition we can currently get ~+90 enhancing magic giving it a +23% chance to double its damage.

This would give it something like an average of 81 damage per attack round...That's...a lot.

Actually these i actually anticipated quite well. I should have mentioned some things though.

I was taking into account Using Enspells means we lose Haste Samba, Thats 10% haste (Merits? its 10 right?) Right out the window. Thats alot to make up for. So these need to be omg good.

I imagine the Enhancing magic buff would be just like Enspells II, based on when the hits land, Not when you cast, So you wouldn't be doing 28% Dbl Damage unless you full timed all your Enhancing magic gear (you'd loose so much haste it wouldn't be worth it), Basically its another one of those "Free Bonuses" (enhancing magic merits >____>? lol idk) that you could use, but might not.

53 DMG enspells (well, Probably closer to 60) wouldn't be horrible, the PLD/DRK ones do 60 from start with Woeborn/Honorbound (and degrade admitidely), but each of those offer atk/acc equal to the damage dealt (+60 each degrading over hits).

RDM is suppose to be better at Enspells than those, Giving them a high-damaging Helpful ability (even giving them just half acc/atk as opposed to full from PLD/DRK ones) would be ideal.

I probably missed some points :| if i did repeat them D: I'll check back laterz

[Seriha]

The Subtle Blow+ on Enaero spells was actually a nod toward allowing RDMs to swing on more difficult stuff. I know, taboo, they're retards, whatever, but if they're already /NIN and can stack SB up to NIN-like levels, with perhaps a dash of Gain-AGI for more SB through AGI calculations, the whole TP feed argument of old loses some steam and you get some supplementary damage on top. How much will obviously depend on the RDM's gear, the mob, and other factors, but it's mainly a step toward quelling the GTFO mentality.

[Doombringer]

lotsa stuff

i like it, but i agree that it needs some hammering out.

as discussed, exclusive buffs per enspell lock you into certain enspells. i like the idea of adding att/acc relative to enspell across the board, but i dislike enspell specific buffs.

as for dagger mastery, could mitigate the issue for thf by giving a 3/3/4 instead of 3/3/6. or, give both traits more magicy names and remove thf from the list. (maybe let pld and dnc keep them cuz there also quasi-"magic" jobs) might piss the thfs off but who cares, i had to watch bst get fencer >.>

[Hyrist]

You guys are pushing some incredibly low numbers on Enspells. It's kind of disheartening.

50 Damage enspells is nothing compared to 5-10% haste. (See the Haste Thread for an example of why it is.)

Provided cap gear haste: Going from 40% haste to 45% is a 9% increase in overall damage. If we're going to inflcit damage that's compariable to loosing 9% TOTAL damage (including WS damage due to WS frequency.) Then we're going to need an enspell that's more potent than Haste Samba.

This is just to EQUATE Haste Samba. Not even regarding our damage issues alone. If we're looking for increased damage potential, we need to get comfortable with the idea that our enspell damage should hit around 100 additional damage unresisted per hit. Either that or it needs to mimic the attack bonuses gaine in En-dark, without the decay, and still be at the +60-70 range.

[Supersun]

If you are trying to make an enspell to match haste samba then you'll likely "break" /nin even more since /nin already does more damage then /dnc.

I think a better way instead of cranking enspells to like 200 a hit would be to find a way that we can gain the benefit of a sanba and an enspell at the same time.

[Karbuncle]

i like it, but i agree that it needs some hammering out.

as discussed, exclusive buffs per enspell lock you into certain enspells. i like the idea of adding att/acc relative to enspell across the board, but i dislike enspell specific buffs.

as for dagger mastery, could mitigate the issue for thf by giving a 3/3/4 instead of 3/3/6. or, give both traits more magicy names and remove thf from the list. (maybe let pld and dnc keep them cuz there also quasi-"magic" jobs) might piss the thfs off but who cares, i had to watch bst get fencer >.>

I had considered, for Dagger Mastery, Traits would be more like 5 initial, +2 to each, This way, even at level 6, it would only be +15. but RDM would only get +9, which isn't bad.

Either way, We also need to consider Evisceration, Chant du Cygne, and Vorpal(where applicable) are RDMs best DD Weaponskills. So while Crit hit rate/dmg may be seen as "ABYSSEA ONRY", Its actually quite powerful in or out. Take Impetus for example, with MNK Body, It increases attack, Critical hit rate and dmg(Ithinklol; with each hit, to the point, accuracy baring, it is like a perma RR XD. Which makes it really quite powerful.

Okay, So now given a few moments to refine some things, How about narrowing it down too.... this-

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JA
Dagger Mastery
RDM50 - (65/80/95)
Increases Critical hit rate and attack when wielding a Dagger.
(+5 Initial Level, +2 Each after)

Swordsmanship
RDM50 - (65/80/95)
Increases Attack and Critical hit Damage when wielding a Sword.
(+5 Initial Level, +2 Each after)

Job Traits
RDM30 - "Combat Wisdom"
Tiers-30/50/70/90
*Raises Enspell Damage. Increases Accuracy and Magic Accuracy when Enspells are active.
*Increases Enspell Damage by 3, Accuracy and Magic Accuracy by 5 for first level. +3 and +3 Each after.

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JA-
RDM:55
"Magic Fencer"
Increases Accuracy and Attack speed in proportion to Enspell damage. Extends Duration of Enspells. Enspells effects by Magic Attack Bonus
*Accuracy gained is exactly half of Enspell Damage before resists.
*Attack speed is based on Enspell Level. (-4% for enspell 1, -7% for Enspell II, -10% for Enspell III)

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MA

Enspell III
RDM 89, 91, 93, 95 ,97 ,99
*Enspells deal a set base damage of 30 a hit. Enhancing Magic skill will occasionally Augment Enspell damage to do 1.5x normal. Has a base chance of procing of 3%. Each 100 Enhancing magic skill adds another 1%. (i.e, at 90, our base Enhancing magic is around 300, So it'd be 6% Chance total).

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Some optional things, Maybe an ability that makes your next enspell have an Aura. (Basically, Enfire would grant an AoE attack boost?), Though This might take usefulness away from using the right spell if you're in a party though, because you may be asked for Attack boost (Enfire) on a mob that Isn't exactly fire-friendly, Either way, RDM is a great buffer still, something like an Aura to Enspells at a short range might make meleeing on RDM a bit less unbearable too.

It would be a low level JA, Probably 30 or so. and the buff would be based on the Spell Tier. Like so-

"Mystic Aura"
recast:1min Dur:Next Enspell
*Grants an "Aura" bonus based on Enspell level and type.
*"Enfire" would give your party +5% Attack.
*"Enfire II" would give your party +7% Attack.
*"Enignis" would give your party +10% Attack.
(Numbers need some fixing)

The only problem with the above ability, some Spells might not get great uses, or you may be asked to use an inferior enspell (Like say, Enfire on a fire resistant mob) simply to give your party an attack boost. Some buffs might not be great comparatively too. Enwater might just give Macc, Enblizzard Matk, etc.

However, Sometimes we have to consider taking a hit like that to get a decent bonus.

(Numbers may need some refining) (Giving an Ability that grants an attack speed inrease with Enspells active (for RDM only) removes the "Haste samba" problem. Since it would be almost impossible to make up for that amount of damage lost)

[Supersun]

I'd actually debate that unless you have CDC that outside of abyssea AE and Sanguine Blade are better then Eviceration and Vorpal on Rdm respectively. (I hit a 1.1k AE with /Sch the other day in Rolanberry)

I mean I've mentioned this before but one of the easiest ways of bridging the gap for Rdm damage is to give us a powerful native elemental WS. I mean if we had Sanguine natively I'd debate that dual wielding OaX swords and spamming it would beat out just about anything except maybe CDC (outside of abyssea).

This is more a nitpick for if they actually do give us a good native elemental WS on sword otherwise your point still stands tall that crits are amazing.

[Karbuncle]

I'd actually debate that unless you have CDC that outside of abyssea AE and Sanguine Blade are better then Eviceration and Vorpal on Rdm respectively. (I hit a 1.1k AE with /Sch the other day in Rolanberry)

I mean I've mentioned this before but one of the easiest ways of bridging the gap for Rdm damage is to give us a powerful native elemental WS. I mean if we had Sanguine natively I'd debate that dual wielding OaX swords and spamming it would beat out just about anything except maybe CDC (outside of abyssea).

This is more a nitpick for if they actually do give us a good native elemental WS on sword otherwise your point still stands tall that crits are amazing.

Well, If it worked out like Primal Rend (Which was i think the only worthwhile Elemental WS ever, although its not much of a shiner today), I could see it being useful.

I don't think we'll be seeing new Weaponskills however... Although, If they just gave RDM sanguine blade Naturally it could be have some decent uses.

Realistically however, if with your best buffs/WS gear, It would still be painfully weak compared to what other DD can do. But if stacked with strong supportive buffs like the ones i listed above, stronger Enspell damage, etc... It could level the playing field a bit.

really though... Its probably doubtful RDM will get anything Melee related mostly due to how the general community would react. I think its too late in RDMs game for SE to consider adjustments like this. Even if they did come out and boost RDM melee proficiency, people would complain they didnt get a "Real update". (Cause lets face it, people are whiners. So am i though, FU Collaborater range improvement).

Thats the biggest problem to solve it seems..