On Red Mage melee...

[TybudX]

Someone simply said "I like playing this way(lol), what gear would you guys suggest?" and instead of jumping on their high-horses, preaching and shouting about how X job should be played, they *gasp* answered the question and offered suggestions. Imagine that for a second.

You're missing the part where most 'melee RDMs' don't just ask for advice, they make long-winded and erroneous claims about how the job does function, in it's current state, and they rightfully get corrected. It's not the 'other side's' fault that RDM doesn't come anywhere close to 80% of a melee job, especially while casting any kind of spells, no matter how light the load. It's not the 'other side's' fault that RDM is an incredibly powerful mage job, regardless of what certain people want for the job. And it sure as hell isn't their fault that Temper 'sucks'. It doesn't suck. It's just going to take a whole lot more than a DA spell to turn a job that has nothing going for it as a melee (save an Empyrean) into a real melee job. Sixty levels worth of stuff. You know, like what actual melee jobs got.

[Stylin]

You're missing the part where most 'melee RDMs' don't just ask for advice, they make long-winded and erroneous claims about how the job does function, in it's current state, and they rightfully get corrected. It's not the 'other side's' fault that RDM doesn't come anywhere close to 80% of a melee job, especially while casting any kind of spells, no matter how light the load. It's not the 'other side's' fault that RDM is an incredibly powerful mage job, regardless of what certain people want for the job. And it sure as hell isn't their fault that Temper 'sucks'. It doesn't suck. It's just going to take a whole lot more than a DA spell to turn a job that has nothing going for it as a melee (save an Empyrean) into a real melee job. Sixty levels worth of stuff. You know, like what actual melee jobs got.

In turn, you're missing the part where nobody asked for a holier-than-thou explanation of why RDM melee is so bad. Spare me the boring rhetoric. This thread was completely civil until people decided to barge in on their high horses to enlighten everyone on why using a sword is so wrong and shouldn't be done.

[Greatguardian]

This thread was never about civil discourse and the discussion of improvements to the existing Red Mage. Duelle wrote the OP, and he's the most zealous fanatic in here. I'm sorry if it's difficult to actually see what he's saying as abrasive or ignorant just because he writes decently well, but he was the first person in here to call for substantial magic nerfs and an end to the modern Red Mage.

The guy has Charisma, but what he's saying is nothing short of directly antagonistic towards magical Red Mages. The rhetoric perpetuated by Saevel certainly doesn't help matters either (eg, "All real, career mages think like I do. If you disagree, you're a loser Abyssea gimp scrub who doesn't know crap about the job").

The only reason this thread looked remotely civil early on is because everyone posting in it was just sitting around tooting their own horns. I doubt they all even read each others posts for comprehension (derp, like that ever happens on the internet anyways amirite?). It's very easy to be "civil" in an environment like that.

@Mageaholic: The ironic point which you seemed to completely miss was that if you're saving time on casting one thing, you should be utilizing that extra time casting MORE things instead of melee'ing. AF3v2 offers a 0% increase in melee uptime for optimally performing Red Mages. Ideally, all of that time you save on buff timers is being utilized in far more effective ways than swinging a sword.

[Stylin]

The guy has Charisma, but what he's saying is nothing short of directly antagonistic towards magical Red Mages.

I don't understand where you get that idea. I see one post where he states that people need to weened off of Refresh and Haste, and another admitting that a Red Mage has other options to benefit a party other than meleeing. In fact, I see more information provided from Seriha and Duelle on exactly why Red Mage melee is impractical than I do from all the detractors combined. If you skim the first 25 pages I'm sure you'll find it to be quite fair.

It's actually funny when you think about it. Every single time somebody comes in with a parse or anecdote claiming it's why RDM melee is bad and shouldn't be done, it shows precisely why it needs a buff.

[Greatguardian]

From... Duelle's... posts. You know, actually reading them throughout the entire thread and not just the beginning.

The man legitimately believes that Red Mage needs to be nuked and reworked from the ground up in order to be something that he likes more. Barring that, he's called for all of the following at various points:

-Drastic reduction in Red Mage's spell library
-Nerf to Red Mage casting range (5')
-Stance system that would only allow players to cast defensive spells during melee mode (Stoneskin, blink, etc)
-Nerfing of Haste/Refresh and other buffs to Self-only targeting

Duelle doesn't talk about buffing Red Mage melee. He talks about nerfing Red Mage magic and giving Red Mages no option but to pick up a sword in order to be half-functional.

Does this happen on post 1? Nah. But it certainly surfaces quickly enough.

As I said earlier, it's easy to be "civil" when everyone agrees with one another. That's not civility though, that's convenience. Blaming the Magical Red Mages for the flaming in this thread is ignorant at best. Pretty much every one of us posting in here with the exception of Shiyo has contributed more solid information and unbiased suggestions for buffing Melee in an unobtrusive way than 12 of the average 10-post "I liek swords" posters here combined.

This thread was resolved ages ago. Red Mage melee will never be viable in a group setting on anything difficult ever. RdMelees want random buffs to their melee powers because they find it fun? Mages don't care, as long as the Devs realize that they still have to make stuff for us, too. Bam, done.

This thread only really exists now for random "Hey we have a forum? Let me post my inane and impossibly overpowered ideas on how to be GOD MODE at melee in this thread" posts, and peacock strutting between people who can't seem to decide whether Red Mage Melee is good right now or not, or even whether they're overworked running buff cycles or just have all the time in the world to melee.

[Economizer]

Nerf to Red Mage casting range (5')

I really hope nobody actually suggested this. There is a huge difference between encouraging a Red Mage to melee and gimping everything about it. This "suggestion" definitely would cross that line.

Increasing spell accuracy while meleeing a mob would be a better suggestion, but reducing casting ranges is probably one of the stupidest things I've heard today.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's been suggested.

[Stylin]

From... Duelle's... posts. You know, actually reading them throughout the entire thread and not just the beginning.

The man legitimately believes that Red Mage needs to be nuked and reworked from the ground up in order to be something that he likes more. Barring that, he's called for all of the following at various points:

-Drastic reduction in Red Mage's spell library
-Nerf to Red Mage casting range (5')
-Stance system that would only allow players to cast defensive spells during melee mode (Stoneskin, blink, etc)
-Nerfing of Haste/Refresh and other buffs to Self-only targeting

Duelle doesn't talk about buffing Red Mage melee. He talks about nerfing Red Mage magic and giving Red Mages no option but to pick up a sword in order to be half-functional.

Does this happen on post 1? Nah. But it certainly surfaces quickly enough.

I want to take your word for it, I really do. This thread is just too big to search down a handful of specific posts and quote them for accuracy. There's just no sense in painting someone to be like Joseph Stalin just because they said a few radical hypotheticals to make sword desirable.

As I said earlier, it's easy to be "civil" when everyone agrees with one another. That's not civility though, that's convenience. Blaming the Magical Red Mages for the flaming in this thread is ignorant at best. Pretty much every one of us posting in here with the exception of Shiyo has contributed more solid information and unbiased suggestions for buffing Melee in an unobtrusive way than 12 of the average 10-post "I liek swords" posters here combined.

Alright, I admit it's not fair to blame the mage-only RDMs. However, everything was hunky-dory until somebody tried to suggest that melee is stupid and that everyone that wanted to was stupid.

This thread was resolved ages ago. Red Mage melee will never be viable in a group setting on anything difficult ever.

Not as the game stands currently, but if Square Enix decided to make it work tomorrow then that's their call. Player speculation is not a valid authority on the matter.

RdMelees want random buffs to their melee powers because they find it fun? Mages don't care, as long as the Devs realize that they still have to make stuff for us, too. Bam, done.

That's what the New Thread button is for. Also the topic Karbuncle(I think) created for ideas for magical buffs.

This thread only really exists now for random "Hey we have a forum? Let me post my inane and impossibly overpowered ideas on how to be GOD MODE at melee in this thread" posts, and peacock strutting between people who can't seem to decide whether Red Mage Melee is good right now or not, or even whether they're overworked running buff cycles or just have all the time in the world to melee.

In all honesty, this thread should have been locked a long time ago. There are still a few quality ideas that can be cleaned up and posted in a brand new thread, but it'd only be a matter of time before that one gets dragged down by detractors.

[Greatguardian]

SCH has a Great Axe skill?



I want to take your word for it, I really do. This thread is just too big to search down a handful of specific posts and quote them for accuracy. There's just no sense in painting someone to be like Joseph Stalin just because they said a few radical hypotheticals to make sword desirable.

You should just read the whole thread, then. I'm not being facetious, I'm just being straight with you. I've read the whole thing, and participated in it for a very long time. It's all well and good to hear talk of "Revitalizing Red Mage melee", but when you get down to the specifics he paints a very unfriendly picture. He likes to reference how WoW supposedly reworked some class from the ground up to make it work the way he/others wanted it to, though I wouldn't know much about that. His endgame has pretty much always been scrapping current Red Mage and turning it into Blue Mage with a better hat and brokenly good abilities.

Alright, I admit it's not fair to blame the mage-only RDMs. However, everything was hunky-dory until somebody tried to suggest that melee is stupid and that everyone that wanted to was stupid.

Well, melee'ing is stupid on a lot of things and a lot of melee-centric Red Mages are stupid. A lot of people in general are stupid though, so really it's not a surprise. The biggest issue is the difference between what certain people want, and what certain people believe is already the case.

Here are the facts:
1) Red Mage melee is absolutely not viable on anything stronger than T level outside Abyssea (or on hard things inside)
2) Red Mage already functions decently as a melee on things that are weaker than EM level
3) Red Mage has never come close to performing as well as a dedicated DD in the melee department at the level cap. We are talking less than half the power of a "real" DD job, even with practically no casting being done.
4) Magic will almost universally be a better use of a Red Mage's time on anything stronger than EM, no matter how much they buff Melee.

Not as the game stands currently, but if Square Enix decided to make it work tomorrow then that's their call. Player speculation is not a valid authority on the matter.

This is a fallacy that I see on these forums a lot. Devs aren't magic. They don't, and probably straight up can't, rewrite or modify the engine that the game is running on right now and the developer toolkit that they are using to mold it. The developers work within the confines of the game as it is right now, not just because they want to, but because they have to. They cannot simply flip a switch and allow players to fly. They can't just make Red Mages gods, either.

What tools do they have to work with? Combat skills, Job Abilities, Job Traits, Weapon Skills, and Spells. What combination of any of these would make Melee *more prominent than casting* on anything HNM-level? None, save turning Red Mage into Primeval Brew.

Can they buff melee? Sure. Can they ever realistically buff it to the point where it is favorable over casting on hard targets? No. Why? Because the intrinsic benefits of back-line magery are vastly superior to whatever DPS Red Mage Melee can bring to the table.

That's what the New Thread button is for. Also the topic Karbuncle(I think) created for ideas for magical buffs.

You're missing the point. It's not about wanting to field suggestions for magical buffs. It's simply a note that every time the Devs spend time sitting around and tweaking swords, that's time they're not spending working on fixes to Red Mage's magical aspect. Do any of us mind a melee buff here or there? Naw. But do we think this needs to be the Developers focus for the next 9 levels? Hell no. Red Mage is a solid job but it could definitely use some tweaking, and frankly we will never consider Melee as anything but a toy. Does it bother me if you like your toy and think it's fun? Nah, go play with it, I don't mind. But I would definitely be upset if the Devs spent all their time tweaking that toy and none on the aspect of Red Mage that people actually use in serious play. Does that make sense?

In all honesty, this thread should have been locked a long time ago. There are still a few quality ideas that can be cleaned up and posted in a brand new thread, but it'd only be a matter of time before that one gets dragged down by detractors.

This thread will just be remade if it's locked. It already has a billion iterations everywhere considering no one bothers posting in this subforum unless it's about melee. That's not to say the majority of forum-goers like melee. It's just that quite a few people are turned off by what more typical/moderate Red Mages would consider fanaticism. Most magical Red Mages just don't have the patience to deal with the melee crowd. They don't exactly have a sterling reputation.

[Stylin]

You should just read the whole thread, then. I'm not being facetious, I'm just being straight with you. I've read the whole thing, and participated in it for a very long time. It's all well and good to hear talk of "Revitalizing Red Mage melee", but when you get down to the specifics he paints a very unfriendly picture. He likes to reference how WoW supposedly reworked some class from the ground up to make it work the way he/others wanted it to, though I wouldn't know much about that. His endgame has pretty much always been scrapping current Red Mage and turning it into Blue Mage with a better hat and brokenly good abilities.

I'm in the process of rereading this entire thread, and as of page 67 I'm STILL not seeing this "call for a drastic change to the class". I see a few stance ideas and the suggestion that Red Mage should be retooled from the ground up, but nothing as severe as you make it out to be.

Keep in mind that I don't like the idea of rebuilding Red Mage from the ground up, so this isn't an issue of me just conveniently overlooking it.

Well, melee'ing is stupid on a lot of things and a lot of melee-centric Red Mages are stupid. A lot of people in general are stupid though, so really it's not a surprise. The biggest issue is the difference between what certain people want, and what certain people believe is already the case.

Here are the facts:
1) Red Mage melee is absolutely not viable on anything stronger than T level outside Abyssea (or on hard things inside)
2) Red Mage already functions decently as a melee on things that are weaker than EM level
3) Red Mage has never come close to performing as well as a dedicated DD in the melee department at the level cap. We are talking less than half the power of a "real" DD job, even with practically no casting being done.
4) Magic will almost universally be a better use of a Red Mage's time on anything stronger than EM, no matter how much they buff Melee.

Those first three points were established in the first few pages of this very thread by melee supporters.

#4 is just being stubborn. If you want to talk fallacy you should re-evaluate that absolutist mind-set. You don't need to rewrite the game engine to make swords more worth-while.

The only thing I will admit sword being worthless for is HNM and that's only because it's a bad idea for pretty much everyone to be hitting them at all.

You're missing the point. It's not about wanting to field suggestions for magical buffs. It's simply a note that every time the Devs spend time sitting around and tweaking swords, that's time they're not spending working on fixes to Red Mage's magical aspect. Do any of us mind a melee buff here or there? Naw. But do we think this needs to be the Developers focus for the next 9 levels? Hell no. Red Mage is a solid job but it could definitely use some tweaking, and frankly we will never consider Melee as anything but a toy. Does it bother me if you like your toy and think it's fun? Nah, go play with it, I don't mind. But I would definitely be upset if the Devs spent all their time tweaking that toy and none on the aspect of Red Mage that people actually use in serious play. Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't make sense at all, primarily because SE is more than one person. Assuming we can only get a buff to melee or magic is just silly and unfounded.

So again, if you want adjustments to the magical aspects feel free to make a new thread. The thread dedicated to melee adjustments is not the place for it.

This thread will just be remade if it's locked. It already has a billion iterations everywhere considering no one bothers posting in this subforum unless it's about melee. That's not to say the majority of forum-goers like melee. It's just that quite a few people are turned off by what more typical/moderate Red Mages would consider fanaticism. Most magical Red Mages just don't have the patience to deal with the melee crowd. They don't exactly have a sterling reputation.

I don't see what that has to do with anything.