[dev 1026] Petition against proposed claim system and portions of new party system.

First let's take a look at the Producer's Letter V poll we seen in march:

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If the current target claiming system were done away with, would you be in favor of a system that rewards skill, experience, and loot only to the party that first deals damage to an enemy? Or would you be in favor of skill, experience, and loot being distributed amongst all parties that contributed to an enemy's defeat?

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Which led to this:

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If the current target claiming system were done away with, would you prefer for content such as dungeons and battle to be converted into instances as much as possible?

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Which led to this:

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This data is somewhat representative of the response seen to Question 9 data. The people have spoken. As such, we'll be operating under the premise that new PvE content, such as dungeons containing sought-after loot, will be instanced. By instancing content in this way, we'll be able to reduce claim wars and counter-camping and all that.

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The problem with this poll is we weren't given any other options. A claiming system where outside parties can attack your mob and take SP/loot from it is a very poor, and very old system. I'm guessing this new claiming system was partly in response to the fact that people don't like the current one. It also seems to be as though it was to accommodate the new party options, but that too wasn't fully what many want, and there's very obvious ways around it.

I also don't believe many of your fans want all future PvE content to be instanced. Dungeons are great but if that's the only future endgame content we'll have I believe you're taking this game into a poor direction. Open world NM's with the type of pop conditions the current one's have are great. They pop very often at various times, which helps prevent claim wars and counter-camping. New areas that are specifically made and filled with NM/HNM endgame content is rather beloved. Both make the world seem more alive.


Here are some pros and cons to the current claim and party system, the proposed system, and what I believe could fix issues with both:

• Current claiming and party system: A party can claim a single mob, or "party" of mobs. No outside party can help fight. SP/EXP/Loot go to said party. Fights can be done with up to 15 people.

Pros:

1. Keeps parties from exploiting the current poor battle system by killing large groups of mobs. (With the easy system right now each member would technically be able to solo yellow/orange/red mobs, providing a drastic increase in SP for all)
   
   
2. Keeps groups from zerging open-world mobs and NM's.
   
   
3. Prevents the "stealing" of SP/exp/loot by outside groups.
   
   
4. Allows for large-scale party play that is needed for endgame LS's, or else people are alienated from content they would like to do.

Cons:

1. Can only claim 1 mob or group of mobs. Causes loss of SP/exp/loot from aggroing mobs.
   
   
2. Large parties of more than 8 make poorly implemented easy content even more boring.

• The alleged system currently under consideration/implementation: Multiple parties can claim. All parties share SP/exp/Loot. Number of mobs allowed to claim stays the same. Parties are decreased to 8 people, some content made for 4. As far as we know alliances are not currently planned.

Pros:

1. Allows for multiple parties to join in massive dungeons.
   
   
2. 8 person groups provides more of a challenge for current poorly implemented content.
   
   
3. Battles with less people seem more engaging to many.

Cons:

1. Allows "stealing" of SP/exp/loot by outside persons and groups. Makes farming in areas with sought-after mob loot difficult. Allows people to SP steal from mobs already being fought. Increases drama of open-world play. Greatly increases drama with open-world NM's.
   
   
2. Allows zerging of all open-world content, NM's included.
   
   
3. Forces developers to make all PvE endgame (and non-endgame) content instanced. Makes for a more boring world. (Biased opinion)
   
   
4. Forces linkshells to become smaller due to their not being enough room for the core group.

• The system I propose you consider for use: Only a single person or party can fight a target(s). Decrease maximum party size to 8. Allow the alliance of 2 parties. The claiming system for instances that are for groups larger than a 2 party alliance can be changed to the claiming system that is currently under consideration only for those instances. Allow groups to claim more than 1 mob at a time.
  

Pros:

1. Prevents "stealing" of SP/exp/loot by outside persons or groups.
   
   
2. Keeps multiple outside groups from zerging open-world content, NM's included.
   
   
3. Provides engaging 8-person battles for dungeon content and easier NM's.
   
   
4. Allows for open-world NM/HNM.
   
   
5. Alliances allow for implementation of harder, engaging content. Allows large-scale HNM fights and dungeons.
   
   
6. Allows for the implementation of massive (more than 2 party alliance) instanced content.
   
   
7. Provides content for those that want larger groups. Allows for LS's to use more members for content.
   
   
8. Provides content for smaller groups. Allows casuals and smaller LS's to partake in various types of endgame content.
   
   
9. Claiming more than 1 mob or group of mobs at a time prevents SP loss from aggroing monsters. Hopefully the upcoming battle changes make for more engaging combat, which would prevent exploitation by killing large amounts of enemies with a single group for SP gain.

Cons:

1. Possibility of griefing by claiming multiple mobs in a low-level area.
   
   
2. Possible exploitation of higher ranks killing multiple mobs at once to level lower ranks. (Can be prevented by removing SP gain in groups with large rank/level gaps.)

*I would prefer for you guys to tell me what is wrong with this system. I will edit them into the con section.*

I know we might be battling it out in one of the other threads but I'm with you on this one.

Is no one else going to give their opinions to an actual constructive post? :/

I guess you're all too busy bickering.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

Is no one else going to give their opinions to an actual constructive post? :/

I guess you're all too busy bickering.

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Sorry I don't have anything to add. We're pretty much of the same mind on this topic.

Claiming only needs to be taken away from behests, Guildleves and the soon-to-be dungeons. Field monsters and NM still need claiming.

One problem with the proposed system: it doesn't allow ad-hoc cooperative play without formal party forming.
More simply: if I ran past you and see you're struggling with a mob, I can't actually help you kill it.

You can always heal that person fighting it and buff them, unless it is an NM they are fighting.

In general a good idea, though I would suggest a cap on the number of mobs or mob groups that can be claimed at a time. Perhaps 3? Without that cap, or with a cap too large, open world mob zerging could be an issue.

Honestly, I don't think reduced sp for unclaimed mobs is a good solution to the zerging issue. It's like putting a band-aid on a leaky pipe. I wish I could say I had a better solution, but I do not. However, I would say that removing that barrier for instanced content would be a good thing. Actually, that may be all that needs to change for instanced content. Well, that and maybe party alliances.

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Originally Posted by Reika

You can always heal that person fighting it and buff them, unless it is an NM they are fighting.

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Not an option for non-healers. Also besides the point. A restrictive claim system puts up an artificial barrier that prevents people from just joining up and helping each other. Which becomes especially important once the game moves to the PS3 where people need to be able to interact with each other without having to go through a bunch of menues first to form a party.

A possible alternative to this would be system where joining an ongoing fight simply does not take anything away from the people who "claimed" the mob first. The joining party would need to cross a certain threshold of participation before they become eligible for rewards of any kind. In this case, SP/EXP/items wouldn't be split, but the additional participants would be awarded from a seperate, additional SP/EXP/item pool.

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

Not an option for non-healers. Also besides the point. A restrictive claim system puts up an artificial barrier that prevents people from just joining up and helping each other. Which becomes especially important once the game moves to the PS3 where people need to be able to interact with each other without having to go through a bunch of menues first to form a party.

A possible alternative to this would be system where joining an ongoing fight simply does not take anything away from the people who "claimed" the mob first. The joining party would need to cross a certain threshold of participation before they become eligible for rewards of any kind. In this case, SP/EXP/items wouldn't be split, but the additional participants would be awarded from a seperate, additional SP/EXP/item pool.

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The system you seem to have in mind sounds like good system but then the looting and sp/xp would need to be awarded the way you have outlined. =)

Much too early to conjecture. I'm sure the dev team knows about the issues involved and I think the majority of the players would adapt to whatever system is in place.

But I understand instancing is usually only about 1 group per instance. Where do you get the idea that multiple parties will be allowed in massive dungeons? They said sought after items will be instanced so I don't think there will be much drama in the open world on who gets the aldgoat horn...

If they allow multiple parties to engage and "help" defeat an NM, I think most people would welcome it if each party gets their own loot table. I don't see why only one rare item should be awarded to the first party that claimed or the party that does the most damage. Why not, for example, give each party that participates a certain amount, say at least 20-30% of damage, a chance of getting some rare loot, and those who merely participates can get a chance at common loot. Each winning party can each get their own Ura skin for example. But most likely, everyone will get nothing cuz the drop rate for it is so crappy...~.~

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Originally Posted by Xzen

The system you seem to have in mind sounds like good system but then the looting and sp/xp would need to be awarded the way you have outlined. =)

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Well of course. Mob claiming and loot system are intrinsically connected. If you change one, you must consider the effects on the other and compensate.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

If they allow multiple parties to engage and "help" defeat an NM, I think most people would welcome it if each party gets their own loot table. I don't see why only one rare item should be awarded to the first party that claimed or the party that does the most damage. Why not, for example, give each party that participates a certain amount, say at least 20-30% of damage, a chance of getting some rare loot, and those who merely participates can get a chance at common loot. Each winning party can each get their own Ura skin for example. But most likely, everyone will get nothing cuz the drop rate for it is so crappy...~.~

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Exactly, that's pretty much the idea. Don't punish people who want to help you, encourage them.

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

One problem with the proposed system: it doesn't allow ad-hoc cooperative play without formal party forming.
More simply: if I ran past you and see you're struggling with a mob, I can't actually help you kill it.

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That's not really an excuse for having a poor claiming system. Besides, allowing things like that only works in games that have only instanced content, which this game does not. In XI there was a "Call for help" option due to this, and they could implement something similar. Hopefully not in a location where someone can hit it on accident. In fact they could combine the call for help feature with this suggestion you made:

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

A possible alternative to this would be system where joining an ongoing fight simply does not take anything away from the people who "claimed" the mob first. The joining party would need to cross a certain threshold of participation before they become eligible for rewards of any kind. In this case, SP/EXP/items wouldn't be split, but the additional participants would be awarded from a seperate, additional SP/EXP/item pool.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

In general a good idea, though I would suggest a cap on the number of mobs or mob groups that can be claimed at a time. Perhaps 3? Without that cap, or with a cap too large, open world mob zerging could be an issue.

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I considered that this could be an issue. However with the changes to the battle system/combat we are supposed to have more engaging battles. To me this would mean fights that last longer than a few seconds that actually require attention. This would make it so mob zerging would be very difficult or impossible. I'm taking a more wait and see approach to this issue because I don't know how it would work until I know what the changes to combat are.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

Much too early to conjecture. I'm sure the dev team knows about the issues involved and I think the majority of the players would adapt to whatever system is in place.

But I understand instancing is usually only about 1 group per instance. Where do you get the idea that multiple parties will be allowed in massive dungeons? They said sought after items will be instanced so I don't think there will be much drama in the open world on who gets the aldgoat horn...

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That's an assumption I'd rather not hope for. I personally feel it's best to get your opinions out before a system is implemented. It makes it easier for them to change things not yet implemented if they agree with you.

Instances can be for more than one group. An example of this would be Dynamis from FFXI. You buy a specific item from an NPC then you trade the item to everyone who will be joining, all players trade said item to a spot and that allows them to enter. I don't know or assume that they will put something like this in the game. That comment was more so because the system would allow them to if they chose to in the future. Also, yes they did say sought after items will be instanced, they did not say all sought after items are going to be from instancing. I doubt with them adding even more NM's in the game they'll change all current items into instances and make all current and future open world NM's worthless.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

If they allow multiple parties to engage and "help" defeat an NM, I think most people would welcome it if each party gets their own loot table. I don't see why only one rare item should be awarded to the first party that claimed or the party that does the most damage. Why not, for example, give each party that participates a certain amount, say at least 20-30% of damage, a chance of getting some rare loot, and those who merely participates can get a chance at common loot. Each winning party can each get their own Ura skin for example. But most likely, everyone will get nothing cuz the drop rate for it is so crappy...~.~

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I doubt most would welcome it. Allowing people to zerg NM's would just make all the fights way too easy and boring. It would be the opposite of what most people want.

Another issue is people “helping” to fight an NM or mob when that person does not want help. If I try to fight something difficult for the fun of the challenge I don't want someone running up to “help” and ruin it. I can't count how many times this has happened to me in WoW.

I doubt most people would zerg open world NMs if the loot is only so so. I'm sure most people would go to an instance for the fun and challenge, and I assume most instances would allow only 1 or very few groups in. Allowing a passerby to help out on an "open" world NM can allow for a more interactive co-op world. Open world NM become mini public quests if you will. Instance NMs would be more for party play.

1 claim system can be boring because you don't interact with anyone else. Its just you and your party/LS for everything. Having a little spontaneity can't hurt.

I don't think anyone here wants to have a repeat of a hundred people spawn camping an open world NM like in XI. Tho its less likely now that open world NMs spawn much faster and in more places.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

I doubt most people would zerg open world NMs if the loot is only so so. I'm sure most people would go to an instance for the fun and challenge, and I assume most instances would allow only 1 or very few groups in. Allowing a passerby to help out on an "open" world NM can allow for a more interactive co-op world. Open world NM become mini public quests if you will. Instance NMs would be more for party play.

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There would be no point in having open world NM's if the gear is very so-so. A lot of people would go do instances obviously, but that doesn't mean less will do open world NM's. It is a feature many players like. The problem with multiple people being able to fight with NM's is if 2 separate groups are trying to fight an NM for loot and another group comes in, kills the mob and gets the loot. That is an issue.

I guess having passerby's "helping" with an NM sounds like a great and fun idea to you, I personally think it is a bad idea because I personally don't think people who actually want a challenge fighting NM's want help. It's a rather noobish mentality to endgame so I'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

1 claim system can be boring because you don't interact with anyone else. Its just you and your party/LS for everything. Having a little spontaneity can't hurt.

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When doing content most people only want it to be with their party/LS. Again, allowing people to jump into a battle spontaneously makes for boring combat, something I don't believe most players want. I'll again have to agree to disagree because I also don't see you changing your stance on this.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

I don't think anyone here wants to have a repeat of a hundred people spawn camping an open world NM like in XI. Tho its less likely now that open world NMs spawn much faster and in more places.

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That will most likely not happen in XIV. It's not even something I'm for, it hasn't been mentioned once in this thread, and It's completely off topic so I'm not sure why you even mentioned it.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

That's not really an excuse for having a poor claiming system. Besides, allowing things like that only works in games that have only instanced content, which this game does not.

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I agree, it's not an excuse, it's in fact a damn good reason to come up with something better. Supposedly MMOs are about playing together with other people. Why is there a system that prevents that?

And I disagree on you second observation, it works very well in the open world part if you design it properly. It has been done before, I don't see a reason why SE couldn't do it as well, if not better.

The only thing I wanted changed about the claim system is the ability to claim multiple mobs. Im fine with instanced dungeons, but I would like them in addition to roaming NMs

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

I agree, it's not an excuse, it's in fact a damn good reason to come up with something better. Supposedly MMOs are about playing together with other people. Why is there a system that prevents that?

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There isn't a system that prevents playing with other people. Parties and Alliances = playing with other people. You don't have to have a system where someone can jump in on a mob whether you want them to or not just to play with others.

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

And I disagree on you second observation, it works very well in the open world part if you design it properly. It has been done before, I don't see a reason why SE couldn't do it as well, if not better.

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How would you design it to prevent people from fighting mobs someone or their group is fighting when they don't want help? Do you have an example of it working well?

As I've said before, people "helping" on mobs and NM's, regardless of how SP/Loot is distributed is unwanted by anyone who actually wants a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

How would you design it to prevent people from fighting mobs someone or their group is fighting when they don't want help? Do you have an example of it working well?

As I've said before, people "helping" on mobs and NM's, regardless of how SP/Loot is distributed is unwanted by anyone who actually wants a challenge.

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Short version:
If they don't need any help, why would I interfere?
If they do need help, why wouldn't they want me to provide it?

If you want to have a challenging fight, design the mob in a way that it can react to the numbers of players, so that a player that joins you doesn't change the level of challenge.


Long version:

One way to approach this is to design situations so that you simply wouldn't want to not play along other people around you.
DCUO did that by designing it so that players who were in the same place usually had the same objectives, so they would naturally want to just work together.
GW2 is taking that basic idea further and pretty much designs the whole open world PvE experience around that premise.

If you really are all about the challenge, you can either design monsters with the ability to scale with player numbers, or you situate them in a place where you're in control over the fight parameters. How many participants, what roles, what rank/gear quality etc. Instances or arenas are the best place for that kind of setup. Without that level of control, you're already watering down the challenge by introducing uncertain variables. Is it a challenge to try kill the big dude with just 4 people? Is it still a challenge if you bring 5?

Is my point clear? Do you get what I mean? That is a situation where it's all about the mechanics, so you'd be better served to isolate it from any outside intervention in the first place, and set up a frame where your achievement actually becomes measurable.

That is a very specific situation though. I don't think it's feasible to extrapolate it on every encounter you'd run into in the open world. Out there, we're all out for the same goals. We shouldn't ever have to think twice about helping out a fellow adventurer. That's the whole point of the game, isn't it? To grasp the opportunity for adventure when it presents itself.

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The alleged system currently under consideration/implementation: Multiple parties can claim. All parties share SP/exp/Loot. Number of mobs allowed to claim stays the same. Parties are decreased to 8 people, some content made for 4. As far as we know alliances are not currently planned.

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I would also be opposed to this system. But I don't see where anyone is suggesting that it will be implemented. It looks to me like Yoshi-P has actually said it's not going to happen.

The whole point of "instanced" content -- which is what it looks like Yoshi-P is actually suggesting -- is that only one party can be in an instance. When I enter an instance, I've got the whole world -- and all the mobs in it -- to myself. So, by definition, multiple parties cannot claim the same mob.

Am I misunderstanding something?

Also, from your proposed system:

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Allow groups to claim more than 1 mob at a time.

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As I understand it, the reason the FFXIV team didn't do this was because it was frequently exploited in FFXI. I could run into a lower level area and use an AoE spell to claim every mob in the area. That would leave no mobs for the lower level members to fight.

And it's also used as an exploit for power leveling. Say you've got a party of seven level 1s and a level 50. The level 50 runs through and kites every mob in a low level area, then quickly wipes them out with a single AoE spell. In FFXIV, SP/XP is determined for each player individually. So the fact that there's a level 50 in your party doesn't hurt your SP/XP. The seven level 1s all the get the benefit of having killed every mob in the area, despite having done nothing. Here's an example of it being done in FFXI.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/par...p-exploit.html

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

I would also be opposed to this system. But I don't see where anyone is suggesting that it will be implemented. It looks to me like Yoshi-P has actually said it's not going to happen.

The whole point of "instanced" content -- which is what it looks like Yoshi-P is actually suggesting -- is that only one party can be in an instance. When I enter an instance, I've got the whole world -- and all the mobs in it -- to myself. So, by definition, multiple parties cannot claim the same mob.

Am I misunderstanding something?

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They didn't say it will be implemented. As far as I know it's something under consideration. The point of the thread is to express dislike/favor for the system he's mentioned and to give our opinions about it.

As far as suggesting one party can be in an instance, that's not what I'm referring too. It's about multiple parties in the open world fighting open world NM's/mobs. I would assume if they even allow multiple parties into a single instance that it will be for parties/groups that are wanting to do the dungeon together.

From the poll:

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9. If the current target claiming system were done away with, would you be in favor of a system that rewards skill, experience, and loot only to the party that first deals damage to an enemy? Or would you be in favor of skill, experience, and loot being distributed amongst all parties that contributed to an enemy's defeat?

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

Also, from your proposed system:As I understand it, the reason the FFXIV team didn't do this was because it was frequently exploited in FFXI. I could run into a lower level area and use an AoE spell to claim every mob in the area. That would leave no mobs for the lower level members to fight.

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I don't personally know of anyone who ran into a low level area and claimed every mob aside for the farming of Yagudo necklaces. Even in those areas, very few people would have leveled there.

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

And it's also used as an exploit for power leveling. Say you've got a party of seven level 1s and a level 50. The level 50 runs through and kites every mob in a low level area, then quickly wipes them out with a single AoE spell. In FFXIV, SP/XP is determined for each player individually. So the fact that there's a level 50 in your party doesn't hurt your SP/XP. The seven level 1s all the get the benefit of having killed every mob in the area, despite having done nothing. Here's an example of it being done in FFXI.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/par...p-exploit.html

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You wouldn't be able to exploit it if a level gap that far apart would in turn make it so the level 1's do not get any exp. It's a simple fix.

The exploit that was in XI would not be able to be replicated in XIV. That was done with SMN 2 hours that did a bunch of dmg. There is no such ability capable of doing that in XIV.

It seems a bit silly to petition something that hasn't been added to the game yet.

If they plan to make the majority of content instanced based I see very few problems arising outside of an option for leaders to change looting option, such as a roll for loot window or leader distribution.

I'm not very keen on roaming NM's anyway so anything which will force them into an instance would be fine with me lol.

Your suggestion has some cons which you haven't put up, the main one is that a party can tag a monster and keep it for his/her party, ie sleeping in FF11.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

They didn't say it will be implemented. As far as I know it's something under consideration. The point of the thread is to express dislike/favor for the system he's mentioned and to give our opinions about it.

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Thanks for the clarification.

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I don't personally know of anyone who ran into a low level area and claimed every mob aside for the farming of Yagudo necklaces. Even in those areas, very few people would have leveled there.

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Well, that video indicates that it happened. And SE apparently thought it happened enough that it needed to be addressed in XIV. So, your personal experiences aside, it apparently did happen enough to be a concern.

And just saying that you didn't experience it doesn't address the issue of what to do if it does happen. If I can claim multiple mobs, then the competition in grinding areas is going to increase. It's a small step from grinding to griefing.

And if my party can claim multiple mobs, then instead of soloing, 7 of my buddies and I can party up and go grind on mobs that we'd otherwise solo. Each of us can grab a coblyn and fight it solo. Only instead of just getting SP/XP from one at a time, I get the benefit of the coblyn I killed solo, and the other 7 coblyns my party members killed solo.

My point isn't that it's necessarily a bad system. It's just that there are definite downsides, too. And despite the fact that you said you'd be adding "cons" to your original post, I notice you haven't added any yet.

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You wouldn't be able to exploit it if a level gap that far apart would in turn make it so the level 1's do not get any exp. It's a simple fix.

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That's not really a simple fix. You'd have to change the SP/XP and party systems. And where do you set the "level gap" limit? Set it too low and you're preventing people from partying together. Set it too high and it can be exploited.

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The exploit that was in XI would not be able to be replicated in XIV. That was done with SMN 2 hours that did a bunch of dmg. There is no such ability capable of doing that in XIV.

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Why can't it be done in XIV? If I can claim 30 marmots, a level 50 Thm can one-shot them all with an AoE spell. I don't need a 2 hour ability to do it.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

You suggestion has some cons which you haven't put up, the main one is that a party can tag a monster and keep it for his/her party, ie sleeping in FF11.

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How is that a con? It's just crowd control. Setting up for another kill while exp grinding isn't a bad thing. Unless you mean for NM's, in which case a rage timer handles that.

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

Thanks for the clarification.
Well, that video indicates that it happened. And SE apparently thought it happened enough that it needed to be addressed in XIV. So, your personal experiences aside, it apparently did happen enough to be a concern.

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That was a video of an exploit for parties in 1 spot out of the entire game. That does not mean it is a big issue. Doing an exploit like that wouldn't even be possible in this game. For one, mobs return to their spot after a certain distance. Secondly, it's done using a powerful 2 hour which isn't in this game.

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

And just saying that you didn't experience it doesn't address the issue of what to do if it does happen. If I can claim multiple mobs, then the competition in grinding areas is going to increase. It's a small step from grinding to griefing.

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People grinding would hopefully not be able to hold anymore than 1 other mob besides the one they are fighting due to mobs being more difficult. If that would be possible in the future then clearly combat would still be way too easy. Also guildleves are a bigger focus than grinding so competition wouldn't be much of an issue either.

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

And if my party can claim multiple mobs, then instead of soloing, 7 of my buddies and I can party up and go grind on mobs that we'd otherwise solo. Each of us can grab a coblyn and fight it solo. Only instead of just getting SP/XP from one at a time, I get the benefit of the coblyn I killed solo, and the other 7 coblyns my party members killed solo.

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If you fight things at such a low rank you can solo them, then SP should be nerfed if you're in a group. If you can get 150 SP from a green mob solo then it would only make sense to get a drastic reduction of SP if you're in a group. The purpose of grinding in a group is to kill things you wouldn't otherwise be able to solo so you can get more SP. As it stands now you can solo harder things, but once they change combat to make it more engaging that shouldn't be possible.

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

That's not really a simple fix. You'd have to change the SP/XP and party systems. And where do you set the "level gap" limit? Set it too low and you're preventing people from partying together. Set it too high and it can be exploited

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The system was already set up in FFXI, they don't have to look far for an example. With the 8 member party limit coming up it shouldn't be too hard to find people of an appropriate level either.

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

Why can't it be done in XIV? If I can claim 30 marmots, a level 50 Thm can one-shot them all with an AoE spell. I don't need a 2 hour ability to do it.

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Again, that wouldn't be possible if they make it so you can't get SP in groups with large rank gaps.

OP, does your third proposal incorporate or alter the following? The current claiming system does not allow unclaimed mobs to grant SP/XP (that only you and your party attacked) while having another claimed (red). This is a common and most annoying problem that I come across in a party setup doing leves. Often there are four mobs grouped closely, all four aggro, you claim one (they come as pairs of two), so there are now 2/4 red mobs, someone in the party will occasionally either damage 50% of a mob resulting in 50% SP/XP awarded or kill it outright while having at least one other red/claimed mob and results in no SP/XP gain. I don't know if this is in place to prevent running entire zones for an AoE mana burn or whatnot, but at the very least its a pain having had your party alone deal all damage and never have it touched by an outsider and gain only a rat skin for it.

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Originally Posted by Boricua

OP, does your third proposal incorporate or alter the following? The current claiming system does not allow unclaimed mobs to grant SP/XP (that only you and your party attacked) while having another claimed (red). This is a common and most annoying problem that I come across in a party setup doing leves. Often there are four mobs grouped closely, all four aggro, you claim one (they come as pairs of two), so there are now 2/4 red mobs, someone in the party will occasionally either damage 50% of a mob resulting in 50% SP/XP awarded or kill it outright while having at least one other red/claimed mob and results in no SP/XP gain. I don't know if this is in place to prevent running entire zones for an AoE mana burn or whatnot, but at the very least its a pain having had your party alone deal all damage and never have it touched by an outsider and gain only a rat skin for it.

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Yes with the system you would be able to claim all the aggroed mobs, which if you were able to kill them would grant you all SP/exp from them. Hopefully though the changes to make combat more "engaging" would entail that it would be difficult to beat 4 appropriately leveled mobs at once.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

Yes with the system you would be able to claim all the aggroed mobs, which if you were able to kill them would grant you all SP/exp from them. Hopefully though the changes to make combat more "engaging" would entail that it would be difficult to beat 4 appropriately leveled mobs at once.

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Yeah I agree, in the current state I feel most mobs in x1 star R40 levequest die in 2-3 AoEs as an R38 con give or take resists, which to me is too easy but may be an opinion of my own.

The only change I can see is that one party/player should only be able to have one mob (or one set of mobs, if the mobs are partied in a pair as in leves) claimed at any given time and the unclaimed yellow mobs remain that way. This allows a party on the same leve to focus on the claimed pair first and therefore focus damage into lowering the number of crowd against the party.

Outside of a leve mobs should act the same way. This will help prevent higher level players from 'stealing' lower leveled mobs that could be the target of another party. Keeping the majority of acted upon mobs yellow prevents dominance from others who would just tag and perhaps only DoT kill to aggravate others, or even just to ensure all drops from an area off a mob family (yag necklaces for those who recall). Again these yellow mobs should act in such a manner that if defeated and not interacted by anyone but one player/party the receive full sp/xp/drops. But if these yellow mobs are acted on by another player/party then they can be claimed by that player/party (with sufficient enmity) and will receive a diminished amount of XP/SP dependent on mob HP% and full drops if the mob remained claimed up until 0%. And finally imagine a mob being bounced around between seperate players/parties (i.e. unclaimed > claimed > unclaimed). The final claiming party should get the XP/SP % of when the last claim occurred up until death, along with all its drops.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

Yes with the system you would be able to claim all the aggroed mobs, which if you were able to kill them would grant you all SP/exp from them. Hopefully though the changes to make combat more "engaging" would entail that it would be difficult to beat 4 appropriately leveled mobs at once.

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That would be great. Traditionally the MMO designs often encouraged killing large quantities of weak monsters over killing fewer, stronger ones. Would be nice to see that change.

I think many of the OP's points are moot.

In the new system, linkshells can still operate together with little or no change in the open world. They just work together from separate parties. Same chance of loot and SP.

Now when there are multiple Linkshells fighting over say Dodore, it is uncertain whether all parties will have their own separate chances of getting drops (meaning each group could potentially get their drops from one kill) or they all share a chance to get the one drop and only one party gets it. This, however, still changes nothing except offering everyone an opportunity to participate in the fight instead of having claim wars and watching groups kill. So in EITHER situation I see the new party and claim system better.

For this very reason it does not force the developers into instanced content. But its obvious they intend to make this their primary goal for content. However this still does not change much. If you had 60 people in a linkshell and they were all able to form a 60 man party to fight something. Just like any other game WoW or FFXI as well, all you do is divide the groups and send them into their own instance.

Honestly, I agree. A little bit of instanced stuff is okay. That way dungeons can be interesting. Pieces of ground falling behind you so you're stuck moving forward so you have to think before you move on, and move with your whole party, communicate, coordinate, etc (In non instance this would trap everyone else in other groups behind).

Other than stuff like that, and a few instances (Dynamis style, or even like other MMO instances, this wouild be a cool addition, but shouldn't be the main bulk of content like in most other MMOs)

I don't like too much instanced content. I play MMOs to play with others. Not just my party either. It's the thrill of seeing random people I've never met before run past, to make the world feel more alive. Conversations I have no part in happening on the side. In real life, the world doesn't revolve around you, and neither should it in an MMO (Instances do)

I want to see people who arent as experienced as me fail, or prevail, and I want to see people more experienced than me fail and prevail. Something to strive for.

With instances, you don't get to go in with these advanced groups, you know they go in, win it using the same strategy as always, then pop out and you never get to see them in actions.

I'm totally for more open world content.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

I think many of the OP's points are moot.

In the new system, linkshells can still operate together with little or no change in the open world. They just work together from separate parties. Same chance of loot and SP.

Now when there are multiple Linkshells fighting over say Dodore, it is uncertain whether all parties will have their own separate chances of getting drops (meaning each group could potentially get their drops from one kill) or they all share a chance to get the one drop and only one party gets it. This, however, still changes nothing except offering everyone an opportunity to participate in the fight instead of having claim wars and watching groups kill. So in EITHER situation I see the new party and claim system better.

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I don't honestly see how that is better. Sure perhaps the system will allow everyone fighting a chance for gear but that's not all it should be about. If it would be the case then all open-world NM's would just be a boring zerg. There would be no challenge, and that is the issue here.

call for help like in abyssea should be added.

not saying abyssea invented call for help, but it should be used like how it is currently in abyssea for nms and crap in XIV. a lot of XI's content now fits better in XIV in my mind. :/

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

I don't honestly see how that is better. Sure perhaps the system will allow everyone fighting a chance for gear but that's not all it should be about. If it would be the case then all open-world NM's would just be a boring zerg. There would be no challenge, and that is the issue here.

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I was just trying to point out that Linkshells would be unaffected by these changes. And while Open world NMs would be tackled by much larger groups, I think many people are going to enjoy NOT waiting around for other people to kill things and then spend more time trying to claim something. THAT is a stupid system, I spent 4 years doing this crap in FFXI, you do not want this to stay.

That said, you'll still have instanced battles for your "challenge" Although its arguable whether or not any content in FFXIV has risen, or will rise, to that title.

Edit: I would like to add, not only would linkshells be unaffected, at least negatively, say you had 18 people show up to an event in the current system. Well 3 of them would have to sit out; in the new system that wouldnt happen, no matter how many people you bring everyone can participate.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

I don't honestly see how that is better. Sure perhaps the system will allow everyone fighting a chance for gear but that's not all it should be about. If it would be the case then all open-world NM's would just be a boring zerg. There would be no challenge, and that is the issue here.

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The only thing making Nm's zerg is poor balancing, given a set party and an optimal party make up there is no reason why a fight should be as boring as standing there hitting it with your heaviest attack over and over until its dead.

Just look at WoW encounters, they are very dynamic and anything but a zerg.

One problem I see with claiming is that Japanese players, or players closer to Japan on the map have a higher chance of claiming a NM (or any mob that respawns) because of their shorter ping time to the servers, since they are hosted in JP. They get a huge benefit and can Provoke or attack a NM before you even see it spawn.

What I'd like to see is a "cooldown" whereas a NM would not be able to be hit/targeted for about 1.5-2sec after spawning. That way everyone has an even chance of claiming it. If you can't even see the enemy before someone else pulls it, just because they're closer to the servers, there's no fairness in claiming.

^ that would make little different, the JP players would still be able to cast provoke or claim the monster before EU and NA players.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

^ that would make little different, the JP players would still be able to cast provoke or claim the monster before EU and NA players.

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Well, just trying to throw an idea around. I thought it would work in theory :)

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

One problem with the proposed system: it doesn't allow ad-hoc cooperative play without formal party forming.
More simply: if I ran past you and see you're struggling with a mob, I can't actually help you kill it.

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FFXI (oh dear lord excuse the reference) had "Call for Help!" and nobody gained sp (xp was the term), not the original claimer or the people assisting. The mobs name would turn from red (claim) to yellow (Call For Help a.k.a CFH) and it would also appear on the chat log of anybody nearby (yay for 14 having a mini map).

Also after CFH the mob would remain yellow until full health. PLEASE DON'T ALLOW CFH ON NM/HNM THIS TIME :P