On the recent letter

All I cared for was "we're making revisions to the battle system" cause the current one I hate with a passion, and hope it gets tweaked.

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Originally Posted by shanvhere

snip

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Be careful about how you word your post; if you're in the beta, it could be an NDA breach.

I hate to be NDA police but I really don't want people to get their account ganked over something small and silly.

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Originally Posted by shanvhere

All I cared for was "we're making revisions to the battle system" cause the current one I hate with a passion, and hope it gets tweaked.

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I can't like your post enough.

We need a MMO with engaging, thought provoking combat.

If the core, and beginning of a game isn't fun, what makes anyone think it will magically be fun at endgame?

Positioning, enemy abilities, environmental effects, party makeup, elemental wheel, status effects, a diverse bestiary, thoughtful action use, resource management, diversified encounters and a slew of other things should play a role in making combat enjoyable from beginning to end.

Similar monsters, tank and spank, same 2-5 skills used from 1-50. {no thanks}

(All hypothetical and needed for any game really, not just FFXIV)

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I can't like your post enough.

We need a MMO with engaging, thought provoking combat.

If the core, and beginning of a game isn't fun, what makes anyone think it will magically be fun at endgame?

Positioning, enemy abilities, environmental effects, party makeup, elemental wheel, status effects, a diverse bestiary, thoughtful action use, resource management, diversified encounters and a slew of other things should play a role in making combat enjoyable from beginning to end.

Similar monsters, tank and spank, same 2-5 skills used from 1-50. {no thanks}

(All hypothetical and needed for any game really, not just FFXIV)

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I really like your post Mog!

I know people will probably slay me for saying this, but I did enjoy aspects of FFXI combat, like how technical it could be at times with positioning, stunning attacks and whatnot.
I still hate with a passion how as my RDM I was stuck on haste/refresh duty while everyone got to have fun haha, but I did enjoy the depth that fights had outside of the boring XP grind.

I hope to see more fights that require one to think on their toes (Running from cracks isn't thinking! :( lol ) and adapt. I didn't feel this in 1.0 at all, even the harder fights were kinda tank n' spank.

Take chimera for instance (Not saying he's hard but it's an example):
Tank stood in his spot, everyone else clustered together out of range (this is when they first implemented him and not after they toyed with him) and it was pretty much that for 5~ mins. The only real 'challenge' came from ganking those ants, but with 2 BRDs on the job it was no sweat at all.

This wasn't technical for me, this didn't have us changing our tactics depending on the enemy's actions. And some could say that XI wasn't exactly 'technical either' but it felt more involved there.

I know some are going to want to say "If you want XI go back to XI!" But I don't want XI, I just wish the fights were a little more involved. I don't need a list of 50 bajillion actions, 49 bajillion of which I'll never use because I'e outlevelled them; I don't need a red mage to follow me around to give me haste to make me feel special or a BRD to do nothing but sing marches and minuets so I can feel great about my weapon skills.
I just want something a little more involved @_@.

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Originally Posted by Nix

Be careful about how you word your post; if you're in the beta, it could be an NDA breach.

I hate to be NDA police but I really don't want people to get their account ganked over something small and silly.

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You get a good taste of the battle system from the videos devs posted.

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Originally Posted by Pwnagraphic

You get a good taste of the battle system from the videos devs posted.

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Yar >< You still have to be careful though because there have been some posts in the past where people have tried to be vague but still speak as if they have personal experience. I just really don't want to see people lose their account over silly things D:. It's a really thin line to walk and SE isn't messing around this time><

They're revisions could be just tweaking 'numbers' and minor functions, I doubt they'll try to 'rehaul' it but if they do, kudos.

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Originally Posted by Nayto

They're revisions could be just tweaking 'numbers' and minor functions, I doubt they'll try to 'rehaul' it but if they do, kudos.

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I remember way back in the 1.0 Beta that they removed the XP Gain bases on involvement (gaining bases on damage done/healed) and introducing the stamina bar. That was quite a drastic chance back then.

I'm extremely curious about Beta 3. I wonder what has changed and what it is they've added (and have yet to show us)...

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Originally Posted by Nix

I really like your post Mog!

I know people will probably slay me for saying this, but I did enjoy aspects of FFXI combat, like how technical it could be at times with positioning, stunning attacks and whatnot.
I still hate with a passion how as my RDM I was stuck on haste/refresh duty while everyone got to have fun haha, but I did enjoy the depth that fights had outside of the boring XP grind.

I hope to see more fights that require one to think on their toes (Running from cracks isn't thinking! :( lol ) and adapt. I didn't feel this in 1.0 at all, even the harder fights were kinda tank n' spank.

Take chimera for instance (Not saying he's hard but it's an example):
Tank stood in his spot, everyone else clustered together out of range (this is when they first implemented him and not after they toyed with him) and it was pretty much that for 5~ mins. The only real 'challenge' came from ganking those ants, but with 2 BRDs on the job it was no sweat at all.

This wasn't technical for me, this didn't have us changing our tactics depending on the enemy's actions. And some could say that XI wasn't exactly 'technical either' but it felt more involved there.

I know some are going to want to say "If you want XI go back to XI!" But I don't want XI, I just wish the fights were a little more involved. I don't need a list of 50 bajillion actions, 49 bajillion of which I'll never use because I'e outlevelled them; I don't need a red mage to follow me around to give me haste to make me feel special or a BRD to do nothing but sing marches and minuets so I can feel great about my weapon skills.
I just want something a little more involved @_@.

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You do realize FFXI turned into use windower and who could write the best spellcast script to automate all the gear swaps and what not.

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Originally Posted by PinkamenaDiane

You do realize FFXI turned into use windower and who could write the best spellcast script to automate all the gear swaps and what not.

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Yes I do, I played it for almost 7 years.

You do realize that gear swapping has absolutely nothing to do with this topic?
You can have an involved fight and some really intricate tactics that DON'T revolve around gearswapping.

But you knew that already didn't you...?


...Didn't you...? D:

don't get your hope wrong. They'll not scraping the bs from the ground up again.

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Originally Posted by Pwnagraphic

You get a good taste of the battle system from the videos devs posted.

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No, really you don't, especially since they're all really low level. This is a fig leaf if I ever saw one.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No, really you don't, especially since they're all really low level. This is a fig leaf if I ever saw one.

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Agreed.
They showed characters killing a couple low level mobs - There was no insight into how larger mobs would work, crowd control/clustering and the like :(. Honestly they didn't show enough in the vids for people to say "OMG I hate this" D:

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Originally Posted by Nix

Agreed.
They showed characters killing a couple low level mobs - There was no insight into how larger mobs would work, crowd control/clustering and the like :(. Honestly they didn't show enough in the vids for people to say "OMG I hate this" D:

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Exactly, so maybe we should all move on and pretend that this evident invite to breach the NDA never existed.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I can't like your post enough.

We need a MMO with engaging, thought provoking combat.

If the core, and beginning of a game isn't fun, what makes anyone think it will magically be fun at endgame?

Positioning, enemy abilities, environmental effects, party makeup, elemental wheel, status effects, a diverse bestiary, thoughtful action use, resource management, diversified encounters and a slew of other things should play a role in making combat enjoyable from beginning to end.

Similar monsters, tank and spank, same 2-5 skills used from 1-50. {no thanks}

(All hypothetical and needed for any game really, not just FFXIV)

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This is the greatest problem..

The game atm it's static as it was in 1.0, you can just spam skill faster.. But the monsters still doesn't use skills to avoid (like eruption for example, or 100 tons swipe).

Even the greatest FATE in beta 2 (the golem) it's a mere tank & spank where all you need is a tank, 1-2 healer, and a bunch of mindless dps spamming ws just standing behind him.. 0 movement required, 0 skill required, 0 danger...

DoctorMog, what do you think about the implementation of jump as a combat mechanic ? Look at this new wildstar video for an idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-qo5nrkYYI0

We already know that jump will not be used as a mechanic.. and it's a shame imho... It really brings much more fun and dynamic mechanics if it is well used (sorry for my english btw).

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Exactly, so maybe we should all move on and pretend that this evident invite to breach the NDA never existed.

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Listen to Abriael's wise council here folks, or theres gonna be tears.

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Originally Posted by Dragonheart

DoctorMog, what do you think about the implementation of jump as a combat mechanic ? Look at this new wildstar video for an idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-qo5nrkYYI0

We already know that jump will not be used as a mechanic.. and it's a shame imho... It really brings much more fun and dynamic mechanics if it is well used (sorry for my english btw).

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I think SE needs to watch that video very closely.

Or Wildstar might just have half their subscriptions.

Double jump is meaningless. But the use of the dodge mechanic, and jump mechanic used to avoid enemy attacks adds a TON of emergent gameplay that FFXIV will not have.

Sprint on it's own meter in Wildstar means melee aren't at a disadvantage in pvp. (Why does sprint cost TP in FFXIV?) If it's because mages can't move when casting, then let them move...
(No NDA breaking, shown here: http://youtu.be/_N4G854ANo0?t=2m51s)

Example: Mage vs melee start fight with full TP.
Melee uses TP move on mage.
mage sprints off.
melee has no TP to sprint after mage.
Wat.

And lastly, that combat looks fun, engaging and doesn't appear to hold your hand and treat you like an idiot.

I'm liking the looks of Wildstar. I really hope SE is watching.

ARR needs to do better than the competition, not just meet it. Otherwise it will be outshined as soon as a new game comes out that steps the genre one step further.
(yeah, that needs to be bold)

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Originally Posted by Nix

Be careful about how you word your post; if you're in the beta, it could be an NDA breach.

I hate to be NDA police but I really don't want people to get their account ganked over something small and silly.

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Sense eorzeapedia talk most about this stuff most of it is no longer under NDA lol.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I can't like your post enough.

We need a MMO with engaging, thought provoking combat.

If the core, and beginning of a game isn't fun, what makes anyone think it will magically be fun at endgame?

Positioning, enemy abilities, environmental effects, party makeup, elemental wheel, status effects, a diverse bestiary, thoughtful action use, resource management, diversified encounters and a slew of other things should play a role in making combat enjoyable from beginning to end.

Similar monsters, tank and spank, same 2-5 skills used from 1-50. {no thanks}

(All hypothetical and needed for any game really, not just FFXIV)

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There isn't an MMO alive with "thought provoking" combat. There's a best way to do everything in every game, people find it, execute best strategy, win.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Sense eorzeapedia talk most about this stuff most of it is no longer under NDA lol.

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And here's where you're wrong. Press outlets and some fansites have been specifically authorized by Square Enix to talk about the beta in a preview. The NDA remains for everyone else.

So yeah, all of it is still fully under NDA until SE says it isn't, as the articles should have duly specified.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There isn't an MMO alive with "thought provoking" combat. There's a best way to do everything in every game, people find it, execute best strategy, win.

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Maybe you misunderstood what I mean by thought provoking combat.

Combat efficiency (what you are talking about) and engaging/thought provoking combat (what I mean) are two different things.

Combat effiency
Drakes die fastest from water spells. Only use water spells.
Kill eyes from behind to avoid gaze.

Engaging combat
Manage resources. TP, MP, HP, Cooldowns, Sprint etc.
Observe position for an advantage. Don't stand in front of dragons, don't stand next to healer, watch distance etc.
A diverse skill rotation. Using additional skills for their additional benefits over straight damage. Gravity, DoT, stun etc.
Monster groups and monster types (abilities) change combat dynamically.

What I don't want in 2.0 is
Stationary combat
best dps skill used repeatedly
lack of resource management
Oversimplified monster mechanics / non diverse skills for monsters.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I think SE needs to watch that video very closely.

Or Wildstar might just have half their subscriptions.

Double jump is meaningless. But the use of the dodge mechanic, and jump mechanic used to avoid enemy attacks adds a TON of emergent gameplay that FFXIV will not have.

Sprint on it's own meter in Wildstar means melee aren't at a disadvantage in pvp. (Why does sprint cost TP in FFXIV?) If it's because mages can't move when casting, then let them move...
(No NDA breaking, shown here: http://youtu.be/_N4G854ANo0?t=2m51s)

Example: Mage vs melee start fight with full TP.
Melee uses TP move on mage.
mage sprints off.
melee has no TP to sprint after mage.
Wat.

And lastly, that combat looks fun, engaging and doesn't appear to hold your hand and treat you like an idiot.

I'm liking the looks of Wildstar. I really hope SE is watching.

ARR needs to do better than the competition, not just meet it. Otherwise it will be outshined as soon as a new game comes out that steps the genre one step further.
(yeah, that needs to be bold)

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Thanks for your opinion, that is what i think too.

ARR it's a 2013 game, with old style mechanics (i hope that it will reach at least the WoW encounters speaking of mechanics depth.. it will be already a BIG goal) ... Anyway compared to the new games, it feels old without any doubt. Almost every new game it's more player skill based than gear based (look at GW2) .

Last OT on Wildstar, i'm really looking forward it, it's made by big team where 15-20 members are ex blizzard (till TBC),
also it will be an hardcore game as the devs recently stated. They want to make hard raids where ppl will wipes a lot, class trinity still present (not like GW2..) etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Dragonheart

TARR it's a 2013 game, with old style mechanics (i hope that it will reach at least the WoW encounters speaking of mechanics depth.. it will be already a BIG goal) ... Anyway compared to the new games, it feels old without any doubt.

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NDA.

You don't know how it feels, and if you do know, you can't talk about it.

Also, "old" is nothing more than a meaningless catchword in game development. A mechanic isn't more or less valid or fun depending on its age.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

NDA.

You don't know how it feels, and if you do know, you can't talk about it.

Also, "old" is nothing more than a meaningless catchphrase in game development. A mechanic isn't more or less valid or fun depending on its age.

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Indeed. Go ask Mario if he should stop stomping koopas

Not everyone is going to be satisfied with whatever combat system they release. That's pretty much a given. But there must also be a system that new players can pick up on and use. This won't become DFO, and from the released videos I'm confident it won't become Invictus, at least not without gross game changes delaying release by months.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

And here's where you're wrong. Press outlets and some fansites have been specifically authorized by Square Enix to talk about the beta in a preview. The NDA remains for everyone else.

So yeah, all of it is still fully under NDA until SE says it isn't, as the articles should have duly specified.

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well then the people at eorzeapedia are wrong for saying that then. If a press outlet talk about something that in beta which was under NDA and then people listen to that press outlet then all that information in turn should no longer be under NDA. Because everyone can easy just listen to the press outlet and get that information.

That all i'm saying there still a lot of things under NDA but most of the thing talk by the press outlet should no longer be under NDA. I understand that you need SE to tell us otherwise so it best not to talk about it just in case you talk about something that is under NDA. But really this close to Beta3 with or without SE ok it does not really matter that much.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

well then the people at eorzeapedia are wrong for saying that then. If a press outlet talk about something that in beta which was under NDA and then people listen to that press outlet then all that information in turn should no longer be under NDA. Because everyone can easy just listen to the press outlet and get that information.

That all i'm saying there still a lot of things under NDA but most of the thing talk by the press outlet should no longer be under NDA. I understand that you need SE to tell us otherwise so it best not to talk about it just in case you talk about something that is under NDA. But really this close to Beta3 with or without SE ok it does not really matter that much.

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Those people have been expressly authorized by Square Enix to talk about it despite the NDA (and only within the preview), as was specified by many of the outlets that posted previews. You haven't been authorized to do so, hence you shouldn't.

The NDA on the whole content of beta 1 and beta 2 (and alpha) is still fully in place, and SE was very clear about it. That's all there's to it.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Those people have been expressly authorized by Square Enix to talk about it despite the NDA (and only within the preview), as was specified by many of the outlets that posted previews. You haven't been authorized to do so, hence you shouldn't.

The NDA on the whole content of beta 1 and beta 2 (and alpha) is still fully in place, and SE was very clear about it. That's all there's to it.

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listen to there podcast they said anything they talk about is no longer under NDA. That where i got it from not saying your wrong just thinking who is right now lol.

But yes at the end we still under NDA but should not really matter that much now that my point.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

listen to there podcast they said anything they talk about is no longer under NDA. That where i got it from not saying your wrong just thinking who is right now lol.

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http://gamerescape.com/2013/04/22/ae...e-qa-incoming/

Notice the clear note evidenced at the bottom: *The NDA is still in effect, Gamer Escape has received permission from Square Enix to answer questions regarding the beta test.

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But yes at the end we still under NDA but should not really matter that much now that my point.

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It matters until Square Enix says it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

http://gamerescape.com/2013/04/22/ae...e-qa-incoming/

Notice the clear note evidenced at the bottom: *The NDA is still in effect, Gamer Escape has received permission from Square Enix to answer questions regarding the beta test.



It matters until Square Enix says it doesn't.

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Once again i agree with you i'm just saying does not really matter at this point if SE say it or not "opinion". So let's just end this here ok.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Once again i agree with you i'm just saying does not really matter at this point if SE say it or not.

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It's no opinion. What SE says (or doesn't say) on the issue is the only thing that matters.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

It's no opinion. What SE says (or doesn't say) on the issue is the only thing that matters.

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wow you most be the type of person that have to win a argument by making the person say it your way. Like i said before it's done it's over enough no one cares it's off topic so stop.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

wow your the type of person that have to win a argument by making the person say it your way.

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Nope. I simply don't like the idea of people getting misled into talking about something they can't talk about and suffering the consequences for that.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Nope. I simply don't like the idea of people getting misled into talking about something they can't talk about and suffering the consequences for that.

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ok i get it enough lol.

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Originally Posted by Nix

Agreed.
They showed characters killing a couple low level mobs - There was no insight into how larger mobs would work, crowd control/clustering and the like :(. Honestly they didn't show enough in the vids for people to say "OMG I hate this" D:

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Haven't seen enough for people to rave about it and claim it's going to be awesome, either. But I don't see anyone calling people out when they make those claims.

Funny how that works.

Critical? "You haven't seen enough to form an opinion"

Praising? "You haven't seen any more than the critical people, but that's okay. Your assumptions and hopes of how it's going to be is more than enough to go on"

It's the ultimate double-standard.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The NDA on the whole content of beta 1 and beta 2 (and alpha) is still fully in place, and SE was very clear about it. That's all there's to it.

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Not fully. SE was very clear that the NDA had been lifted for all testers with regards Character Creation, Old Gridania and New Gridania. I'd quote the post, but I think by doing so I'd be in breach of the NDA...

Granted that's not relevant to the thread at hand which is discussing the battle systems, but for the sake of correctness!

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Sprint on it's own meter in Wildstar means melee aren't at a disadvantage in pvp. (Why does sprint cost TP in FFXIV?) If it's because mages can't move when casting, then let them move...
(No NDA breaking, shown here: http://youtu.be/_N4G854ANo0?t=2m51s)

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lol... is this what we have to do now when we choose to criticize something about ARR's direction?

What, is the new tactic to silence opinions people don't like to threaten them with "NDA breach"? We have to start pre-emptively proving we're not breaking NDA because we're voicing an unpopular opinion?

Folks, between the Live Letters, screenshots, videos, articles, interviews and clarifications made via SE community managers, there has been tons of information released about how things are intended to be in ARR, covering a wide spectrum of categories.

That seems to be the new thing on forums, though, from what I'm seeing - here and elsewhere. Someone posts information that has already been officially released, and you see a bunch of self-appointed forum police crying "NDA Breach!!!" trying to shut the person up, even though it isn't.

Dealing with real NDA breaches is the domain of the mods, and they read/monitor these forums. How about we let them do the job they're actually hired/paid to do, and stop using "NDA Breach!" to try and stifle dissenting opinion? It's pretty lame.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

lol... is this what we have to do now when we choose to criticize something about ARR's direction?

What, is the new tactic to silence opinions people don't like to threaten them with "NDA breach"? We have to start pre-emptively proving we're not breaking NDA because we're voicing an unpopular opinion?

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Or maybe people say it's an NDA breach just because it is, and your conspiracy theory doesn't hold much water.

There's a place to discuss NDA-covered mechanics, where it also has a much bigger chance to catch the attention of the developers. It's called "beta forums". They exist for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Or maybe people say it's an NDA breach just because it is, and your conspiracy theory doesn't hold much water.

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No... see... A 'Conspiracy Theory' is when you believe something is happening that actually isn't, outside someone's imagination, due to paranoia, etc.

When I go on various forums and see people crying "NDA Breach!" - and only in response to negative or critical opinions - only to be proven wrong when someone links to the very public article discussing what they're speaking about... that's not conspiracy theory. That's actual fact. And I'm seeing it a lot.

So my "theory" is perfectly sound, thank you.

But I'm sure you'll come back with one of your characteristically condescending/arrogant retorts telling me how I'm wrong. That's fine. I trust my eyes far more than I do the self-righteous rhetoric of someone on a forum.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

No... see... A 'Conspiracy Theory' is when you believe something is happening that actually isn't, outside someone's imagination, due to paranoia, etc.

When I go on various forums and see people crying "NDA Breach!" - and only in response to negative or critical opinions - only to be proven wrong when someone links to the very public article discussing what they're speaking about... that's not conspiracy theory. That's actual fact.

So my "theory" is perfectly sound, thank you.

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"my theory is sound because I say it is" doesn't really hold much water.

Your limited personal experience of "various forums" doesn't hold any statistical value (no matter how much you paint it as "fact"), and in any case doesn't justify breaching the NDA just because you agree or disagree with it. There's a place to talk about NDA-covered mechanics (where it's actually useful), and this isn't that place. The same goes for the other "various forums" that aren't that place.

The fact that "OMG it's old!" is a ridiculous and meaningless way to describe or criticize any game mechanic is completely separate from that point.

You can "trust your eyes" as much as you want, but you're doing exactly what you accuse others of doing: trying to silence a valid statement (there is an NDA in place and should be respected) by artificially associating it with some kind of hidden agenda that you can't in any way prove.