Trying to play MCH with PUG's is pure agony.

"You cannot join the party as your current class/job."
https://i.imgur.com/T3EW97i.png

MCH is weak damagewise compared to DNC/BRD in every group that can press buttons but so is RDM/SMN compared to PCT/BLM and they are not getting locked out.
Please dont come with "but they have a battleraise!" .. yes.. and MCH has the better mitigation for prog with Dismantle. Improvisation is a joke and Minne doesnt prevent you from dying if you get oneshot.

This needs to stop. Rant over.

The issue is that literally all physical ranged classes have been in the gutter for multiple expansions, and MCH is functionally the worst of the lot.

Melee get "rewarded" for maintaining uptime...on bosses you have to try to disengage from.

Casters get "rewarded" for having cast bars... When they all have more mobility than BRD/MCH.

Physical Ranged jobs are taxed about 10% damage for functionally no reason, and the 1% pity buff to damage they provide by existing is lower than the penalty they get for being ranged.

Ergo, there is no reason to bring a physical ranged to a party when you can just bring another Melee, Caster, or a battle rez.

People are seeing this and doing the only logical thing: Denying the worst performing job by a mile party slots

"Look Forward to It "

It's just pointless to complain about it at this point. People have been doing this for 7 tiers and SE has turned deaf. It's not even like MCH has different issues now, they've always been the same since the rework.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

Physical Ranged jobs are taxed about 10% damage for functionally no reason, and the 1% pity buff to damage they provide by existing is lower than the penalty they get for being ranged.

Ergo, there is no reason to bring a physical ranged to a party when you can just bring another Melee, Caster, or a battle rez.

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That's not true. You bring a phys ranged to the party for FFLogs.

You exist purely to pad someone else's numbers.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

"You cannot join the party as your current class/job."
https://i.imgur.com/T3EW97i.png

MCH is weak damagewise compared to DNC/BRD in every group that can press buttons but so is RDM/SMN compared to PCT/BLM and they are not getting locked out.
Please dont come with "but they have a battleraise!" .. yes.. and MCH has the better mitigation for prog with Dismantle. Improvisation is a joke and Minne doesnt prevent you from dying if you get oneshot.

This needs to stop. Rant over.

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Sorry, you aren't there to provide "mitigation" or "utility". You aren't even there to boost raid damage (since it got to the point where it can even be a net loss to bring a phys ranged). You are there to pad someone else's numbers, to give them that 1% so they can go from grey to green.

You’re actually just there to be a body at this point. Physical Ranged has gone from something that’s good to basically “muh 1%” in a couple expansions. The most glaring issue though is Physical Ranged is basically the “I’m bad at the game” role with where I’ve seen it memed. It’s sad to say it this way, but honestly there’s no payoff for playing PRanged in Savage anymore.

It's funny how it took them all of EW of giving machinist tiny buffs until they were almost at a reasonable spot, then they repeated the exact same mistake in DT.

Unfortunately don't expect any physical ranged buffs until 7.21 at earliest, but 7.25 seems more likely (and by more likely I don't mean guaranteed).

M8S has been cleared week 1 with machinists, though. With people upgrading their gear each week, enrage checks become less and less of an issue. If a machinist doing 250 less DPS than a bard or dancer is causing your group to wipe, then the problem is more likely because too many people keep getting damage down debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Espon

It's funny how it took them all of EW of giving machinist tiny buffs until they were almost at a reasonable spot, then they repeated the exact same mistake in DT.

Unfortunately don't expect any physical ranged buffs until 7.21 at earliest, but 7.25 seems more likely (and by more likely I don't mean guaranteed).

M8S has been cleared week 1 with machinists, though. With people upgrading their gear each week, enrage checks become less and less of an issue. If a machinist doing 250 less DPS than a bard or dancer is causing your group to wipe, then the problem is more likely because too many people keep getting damage down debuffs.

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Quite a few prog groups are hitting sub 1% enrage. The loss of damage bringing a MCH can be the deciding factor in early PF for a clear or a wasted lockout.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

Quite a few prog groups are hitting sub 1% enrage. The loss of damage bringing a MCH can be the deciding factor in early PF for a clear or a wasted lockout.

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Not to mention, in the early weeks, meta comps matter that much more because they can make up for damage downs or deaths. For a lot of people, it's just not worth taking Machinist over Bard/Dancer because it quite literally offers nothing. How this job has been in the gutter for so long is almost impressive.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

Casters get "rewarded" for having cast bars... When they all have more mobility than BRD/MCH.

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I'm gonna fight you on that for Black Mage. Yes we have Aetherial Manipulation. It's also ass. Literally a lot of the AoE's and gotcha mechanics are so fast, and safe zones so tight that your average person is either going to be a hair too slow with Manipulation to escape, or worse, you'll pull it off on time, but still get hit because you're put NEXT to your target, not on it. That's far more problematic when targeting a player as opposed to, say, a gap closer.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

Quite a few prog groups are hitting sub 1% enrage. The loss of damage bringing a MCH can be the deciding factor in early PF for a clear or a wasted lockout.

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Same can be said about bringing a PLD over a GNB, a NIN over a SAM/VPR, a WHM over an AST and RDM/SMN over PCT/BLM. The damage discrepancy between BLM compared to SMN/RDM is even higher, almost twice as much and they are not locked out.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

"You cannot join the party as your current class/job."
https://i.imgur.com/T3EW97i.png

MCH is weak damagewise compared to DNC/BRD in every group that can press buttons but so is RDM/SMN compared to PCT/BLM and they are not getting locked out.
Please dont come with "but they have a battleraise!" .. yes.. and MCH has the better mitigation for prog with Dismantle. Improvisation is a joke and Minne doesnt prevent you from dying if you get oneshot.

This needs to stop. Rant over.

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This makes me sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jamini

Physical Ranged jobs are taxed about 10% damage for functionally no reason, and the 1% pity buff to damage they provide by existing is lower than the penalty they get for being ranged.

Ergo, there is no reason to bring a physical ranged to a party when you can just bring another Melee, Caster, or a battle rez.

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The 1% buff is still very much required. No group goes without a p. range in hard content.

This doesn't change the fact that p. range should be brought for more than just that. For starters, the gap should not be more than 5%, if we follow SE's current philosophy on job balance.

MCH should be the lowest of the selfish dps, but not anywhere near as much as it is now
it should be like, 2% lower than viper at the worst. This is awful

Lets ignore the raid issue for a moment, i think the concept of the Machinist Job is just unfun to play, the Aether Transformer is a visual stain on my screen.

The job needs a complete rework, not just a few potency buffs.

All selfish DPS should be somewhat close to each other in terms of damage.

SE should rework how they balance their jobs. Providing support of any kind V.S. Selfish DPS.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

"You cannot join the party as your current class/job."
https://i.imgur.com/T3EW97i.png

MCH is weak damagewise compared to DNC/BRD in every group that can press buttons but so is RDM/SMN compared to PCT/BLM and they are not getting locked out.
Please dont come with "but they have a battleraise!" .. yes.. and MCH has the better mitigation for prog with Dismantle. Improvisation is a joke and Minne doesnt prevent you from dying if you get oneshot.

This needs to stop. Rant over.

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That's because the DNC mit is Shield Samba and they have Curing Waltz. But yes, Improvisation is a joke. The regen is pitiful and you barely ever get to channel it long enough for the mitigation.

That being said, this is incredibly stupid behavior on the part of the community and I really wish people would knock it off. And I also wish MCH was in a better spot.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

The 1% buff is still very much required. No group goes without a p. range in hard content.

This doesn't change the fact that p. range should be brought for more than just that. For starters, the gap should not be more than 5%, if we follow SE's current philosophy on job balance.

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I guess it is now that PCT has been nerfed. In the previous tier, on Zodiark I regularly saw groups skipping a rPHYS in favour of a PCT.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Same can be said about bringing a PLD over a GNB, a NIN over a SAM/VPR, a WHM over an AST and RDM/SMN over PCT/BLM. The damage discrepancy between BLM compared to SMN/RDM is even higher, almost twice as much and they are not locked out.

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SMN and PCT bring battle rezzes, and they should really be doing more damage too.

Battle Rezzes are quite valuable, compared to anything a MCH brings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aco505

The 1% buff is still very much required. No group goes without a p. range in hard content.

This doesn't change the fact that p. range should be brought for more than just that. For starters, the gap should not be more than 5%, if we follow SE's current philosophy on job balance.

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You would think that, but you are wrong! Double caster comps not only are clearing, but are doing so easier than any comp with a prange!

An "Average" group is dealing around 170,000 - 180,000DPS (using M5 as a comparison since it has the most data). 1% of that group DPS is 1,800dps.

Replacing any prange (tops out at 27,000 rdps at 50th percentile) with any Black Mage or Melee (low end of 29,000 rdps, top end of 30,000rdps) gives your group a gain of 2,000-3,000 damage. Even accounting for the 1% lower damage on the new damage output source (200-300 dps loss) you still don't close the gap at all.

The actual numbers I've been running since dawntrail started are a bit more complicated considering group composition, and a small boost in raw HP is also useful for prog purposes... however generally adding a BLM or any melee in the place of your ranged is a net gain. PCT was also a net gain until this patch. RDM and SMN are a minor group DPS loss, in exchange for a battle rez.

If you have a RDM or SMN in your party, yeeting your ranged player and recruiting a black mage or Pictomancer is a strict, substantial gain for your group unless your group is a barse group.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aco505

The 1% buff is still very much required. No group goes without a p. range in hard content.

This doesn't change the fact that p. range should be brought for more than just that. For starters, the gap should not be more than 5%, if we follow SE's current philosophy on job balance.

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As long as it is even just 5%, the only reason to bring them will be the party bonus. Job balanced saw the gap reduced down to 5% ish both in the second half of ShB and EW, and it was no different. Those jobs do not bring a raise, therefore doing less damage means that the only reason they are included in parties is for the party bonus, nothing more.

Melees would cry their eyes out if positions were reversed and rphys players told them that 5% is okay.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

You would think that, but you are wrong! Double caster comps not only are clearing, but are doing so easier than any comp with a prange!

An "Average" group is dealing around 170,000 - 180,000DPS (using M5 as a comparison since it has the most data). 1% of that group DPS is 1,800dps.

Replacing any prange (tops out at 27,000 rdps at 50th percentile) with any Black Mage or Melee (low end of 29,000 rdps, top end of 30,000rdps) gives your group a gain of 2,000-3,000 damage. Even accounting for the 1% lower damage on the new damage output source (200-300 dps loss) you still don't close the gap at all.

The actual numbers I've been running since dawntrail started are a bit more complicated considering group composition, and a small boost in raw HP is also useful for prog purposes... however generally adding a BLM or any melee in the place of your ranged is a net gain. PCT was also a net gain until this patch. RDM and SMN are a minor group DPS loss, in exchange for a battle rez.

If you have a RDM or SMN in your party, yeeting your ranged player and recruiting a black mage or Pictomancer is a strict, substantial gain for your group unless your group is a barse group.

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This is not literally +1% damage.
This is +1% in main stats (STR/DEX/VIT/INT/MND).

I do not remember the exact numbers and they quite frankly keep changing due to many variables, but a job used to be in threat of losing the party bonus protection past 10-15% damage gap iirc (don't quote me on the eyeballed number, could be remembering wrong), which always comes pretty close at expansion releases within the rphys department. It is also possible that double PCT comps broke that barrier, that I haven't looked into.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jamini

SMN and PCT bring battle rezzes, and they should really be doing more damage too.

Battle Rezzes are quite valuable, compared to anything a MCH brings.

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What makes you think that a battleraise is more valueable than dismantle when you are already going for the clear? Dismantle always has value while a battleraise doesnt. The moment both healers die its pretty much over anyway. I dont play casters that much but im pretty sure that the priority when it comes to who has to raise always falls on the healer. A RDM most of the times cant raise without breaking his long ass combo since the 2Min burst lines up with mechanics where ppl tempt to die a lot. A SMN doesnt have swift for like 70% of the time if they play optimally to snapshot slipstream. It hurts your party more to bring a RDM/SMN than a MCH would when it comes to the overall party DPS to meet the dpschecks.

That being said since you took m5s 50% as an example on the quote after this. MCH actually seems quite solid surpassing DNC BRD and SMN in rDPS and DNC,BRD;SMN,RDM,PCT in aDPS. rDPS isnt everything, aDPS matters aswell. DRK as an example is most often the lowest rDPS tank but still considered the best tank when it comes to overall partyDPS and Killtime because of his synergy with raidbuffs. MCH in m5s for example could technically start of with a Drill -1-2-3 to line up all high hitting GCD's and Wildfire with Raidbuffs for even more aDPS since you wont lose a usage of Airanchor, Chainsaw, Wildfire, Queen ect with current killtimes.

Its a shame too, Mch has prolly my favorite single target of any Job currently... Unfortunately even if they finally decided on some potency improvements, likely wont see them till 7.3.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

What makes you think that a battleraise is more valueable than dismantle when you are already going for the clear? Dismantle always has value while a battleraise doesnt. The moment both healers die its pretty much over anyway. I dont play casters that much but im pretty sure that the priority when it comes to who has to raise always falls on the healer. A RDM most of the times cant raise without breaking his long ass combo since the 2Min burst lines up with mechanics where ppl tempt to die a lot. A SMN doesnt have swift for like 70% of the time if they play optimally to snapshot slipstream. It hurts your party more to bring a RDM/SMN than a MCH would when it comes to the overall party DPS to meet the dpschecks.

That being said since you took m5s 50% as an example on the quote after this. MCH actually seems quite solid surpassing DNC BRD and SMN in rDPS and DNC,BRD;SMN,RDM,PCT in aDPS. rDPS isnt everything, aDPS matters aswell. DRK as an example is most often the lowest rDPS tank but still considered the best tank when it comes to overall partyDPS and Killtime because of his synergy with raidbuffs. MCH in m5s for example could technically start of with a Drill -1-2-3 to line up all high hitting GCD's and Wildfire with Raidbuffs for even more aDPS since you wont lose a usage of Airanchor, Chainsaw, Wildfire, Queen ect with current killtimes.

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It's an old debate without a clear cut answer.
Raises are great for progression, but tend to become less appreciated once a group is through, although it's still a safeguard when both healers die outside of a bodycheck mechanic.
Dismantle is great on paper, but in a sea of mitigators, your 10% has a tendency to turn into a 5-7% once stacked. Which is still appreciable, but it's not exactly something to fall over either. It used to have a lot more value back in the days when a lot of mitigators (notably tanks) actually targeted STR/DEX/INT/MND instead of flat % numbers, and there was overall less of them floating all over.

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Originally Posted by Valence

It's an old debate without a clear cut answer.
Raises are great for progression, but tend to become less appreciated once a group is through, although it's still a safeguard when both healers die outside of a bodycheck mechanic.
Dismantle is great on paper, but in a sea of mitigators, your 10% has a tendency to turn into a 5-7% once stacked. Which is still appreciable, but it's not exactly something to fall over either. It used to have a lot more value back in the days when a lot of mitigators (notably tanks) actually targeted STR/DEX/INT/MND instead of flat % numbers, and there was overall less of them floating all over.

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This is true, but i also think it depends on how you handle mit as a group. Thankfully the diminishing returns only apply to mit on the boss like Rep,Addle,Feint and not to Soil,HoL ect.
It really boggles my mind that people say it has no value in a tier where ppl die to the "Ready or Not" Raidwide in m6s more than the squirrel enrage.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

You would think that, but you are wrong! Double caster comps not only are clearing, but are doing so easier than any comp with a prange!

An "Average" group is dealing around 170,000 - 180,000DPS (using M5 as a comparison since it has the most data). 1% of that group DPS is 1,800dps.

Replacing any prange (tops out at 27,000 rdps at 50th percentile) with any Black Mage or Melee (low end of 29,000 rdps, top end of 30,000rdps) gives your group a gain of 2,000-3,000 damage. Even accounting for the 1% lower damage on the new damage output source (200-300 dps loss) you still don't close the gap at all.

The actual numbers I've been running since dawntrail started are a bit more complicated considering group composition, and a small boost in raw HP is also useful for prog purposes... however generally adding a BLM or any melee in the place of your ranged is a net gain. PCT was also a net gain until this patch. RDM and SMN are a minor group DPS loss, in exchange for a battle rez.

If you have a RDM or SMN in your party, yeeting your ranged player and recruiting a black mage or Pictomancer is a strict, substantial gain for your group unless your group is a barse group.

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How many clears of M6S, M7S and M8S in week 1 had no physical range? In week 2? M5S is not the best example for this since the first fight tends to have lenient DPS and mitigation checks.

In the previous tier, BRD was quite close to melee, for instance, so avoiding the bonus was quite detrimental.

FRU has been cleared with four PCT, no healers or no tanks, yet it doesn't mean that it is optimal to do so.

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Originally Posted by Valence

This is not literally +1% damage.
This is +1% in main stats (STR/DEX/VIT/INT/MND).

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Since the damage formula is basically multiplication that is still almost +1% damage. IIRC it's 0.9%.

Double PCT also isn't optimal because of LB. The biggest reason to bring a phys ranged is that their raid buffs make everyone's raid buffs also better. MCH doesn't have raid buffs so it gets left out.

That's why almost all top speedruns do bring a BRD or DNC.

The thing is it probably isn't true for PF or midcore groups who don't coordinate much of anything. You only get maximum mileage out of BRD and especially DNC if the team actually coordinates buffs and knows what they're doing. Sure, buff coordination is now basically braindead but you still see casual players not pressing it on cooldown....

I'm going off of EW knowledge but I doubt this stale game has changed anything.

Not only MCH is suffering, BRD apparently aswell. What kind of plague do people need to have to come up with shit like this?

m6s reclear btw, not prog, not first clear
https://i.imgur.com/qIELRDu.png

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Not only MCH is suffering, BRD apparently aswell. What kind of plague do people need to have to come up with shit like this?

m6s reclear btw, not prog, not first clear
https://i.imgur.com/qIELRDu.png

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Doesnt mean automatic that BRDs are in a bad state or anything, people have prefs even if its PF, i locked as example in P12 always BLMs out of my groups, its just how it is and will never change even if they improve the Balance or anything

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Doesnt mean automatic that BRDs are in a bad state or anything, people have prefs even if its PF, i locked as example in P12 always BLMs out of my groups, its just how it is and will never change even if they improve the Balance or anything

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Then you are part of the problem aswell. Locking out jobs in a public partyfinder, not considering individual playerskill and raid experience only because you think that x-job does his job better makes you in my opinion a really bad player.
When im a partylead I would take a good player on a non meta job over a bad player chasing the meta any day. It's not only the job that does the damage, its the player who is pressing the buttons and I'm not risking getting someone on DNC who has no idea how to play this job because they are a MCH Main being basically forced to play it.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

How many clears of M6S, M7S and M8S in week 1 had no physical range? In week 2? M5S is not the best example for this since the first fight tends to have lenient DPS and mitigation checks.

In the previous tier, BRD was quite close to melee, for instance, so avoiding the bonus was quite detrimental.

FRU has been cleared with four PCT, no healers or no tanks, yet it doesn't mean that it is optimal to do so.

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A casual look at bard from 0-80th percentile will show bard was quite far behind melee. Oddly MCH was above water last tier until the 90th percentile due to how they work as a selfish DPS

Sticking your head in the sand and screaming physical ranged are fine won't make them fine, nor will it encourage people to allow MCH into their parties.

The solution is on CBU3 to actually fix ranged damage - by removing the pointless ranged tax.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

Oddly MCH was above water last tier until the 90th percentile due to how they work as a selfish DPS

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This is the eternal problem in FF14.

Regular players using their buffs randomly think the meta applies to them. Even in HW and SB that was the case. MCH is much stronger for most groups than BRD or DNC because most groups do not coordinate buffs well, even in EW when it's braindead to do so.

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Originally Posted by Soldier76

This is the eternal problem in FF14.

Regular players using their buffs randomly think the meta applies to them. Even in HW and SB that was the case. MCH is much stronger for most groups than BRD or DNC because most groups do not coordinate buffs well, even in EW when it's braindead to do so.

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Be mindful I'm referring to on-content savage clears. Pretty much everyone in that content is syncing up buff windows to some extent.

Generally it's around the 50th percentile (top 50% of clears) where buff classes start to reach parity with MCH.

That said, the total contribution to damage (accounting for buffs)is simply too low in prange. Imo in an ideal setting buff jos should be ahead of selfish jobs in total contributed damage...as simply stacking all buff classes is by its nature not ideal for a buff class (They need people to feed buffs to). MCH should generally be just below melee (around where NIN and PCT currently sits, if memory serves).

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Originally Posted by Jamini

The solution is on CBU3 to actually fix ranged damage - by removing the pointless ranged tax.

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The ranged tax is not pointless, removing it would only result in triple ranged comps in fights designed around 4 melee + 4 ranged jobs.
We have been there already not to long ago in e8s with the already existing ranged-tax.
A melee should always deal more damage with full uptime. SE needs to give us fights that take melee uptime away so they break even with ranged jobs.

E8 also didn't have a hitbox the size of the moon orbit and melees had to worry more about dropping positionals.

Apples to oranges when many people argue MCH/BRD are some of the more complicated jobs in the game to play well and won't touch them.

Let's also not forget that bard and machinst are two less mobile jobs. MCH has zero mobility abilities, and bard has repelling shot- meanwhile smudge and AM both exist and pretty much every melee is loaded with dashes.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Then you are part of the problem aswell. Locking out jobs in a public partyfinder, not considering individual playerskill and raid experience only because you think that x-job does his job better makes you in my opinion a really bad player.
When im a partylead I would take a good player on a non meta job over a bad player chasing the meta any day. It's not only the job that does the damage, its the player who is pressing the buttons and I'm not risking getting someone on DNC who has no idea how to play this job because they are a MCH Main being basically forced to play it.

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Or like i said people have just preferences, you see the first thing you did was yet again to judge meta, but did i say something about "i only take meta player"? I locked blm out because the possibility to find a GOOD blm player is way way waaaaaaaaay lower then to find a actually good one and after getting trapped and trapped over and over again i just locked them out, does that have something to do with meta? no does that something to do with PREFERENCES`? Yes and btw even when the PF is public, the moment i open a group its MY decision what i wanna have in my group and what not, has nothing to do with meta

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Not only MCH is suffering, BRD apparently aswell. What kind of plague do people need to have to come up with shit like this?

m6s reclear btw, not prog, not first clear
https://i.imgur.com/qIELRDu.png

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It's been reported that some groups were locking double VPR, too. It's just the player base mentality of going with the path of least resistance.

Physical ranged jobs just cannot win with SE. Players were asking for more melee downtime, but as a consequence, the ranged tax was increased so much this patch that the taxed jobs feel weaker. On top of that, there's ranged downtime, and ranged jobs are forced to single-target in situations where melees are free to AoE. Machinist suffers the most, of course. The higher the ranged tax, the more this job will suffer due to not being able to buff the relevant DPS jobs.

While it is fair and necessary to have a ranged tax, SE has never designed high-end content that justifies it being 10% or more.

Phys ranged cannot wait until 8.0 for big changes, they need to be fixed now. MCH, and BRD are not doing so hot this tier so it's no wonder that DNC is so popular. BRD lacks the buff power, and personal damage compared to DNC, and MCH doesn't synergize as well, and lacks aoe damage compared to DNC. The role is dying.

If you can't find a PF that will let you join, I highly recommend making your own Party finder
I've been told it dramatically increases the speed at which you clear.

MCH could definitely use a buff though. The Automaton Queen should be able to use Full Metal Field just like you can, and Wildfire should be an AoE just like it is in PVP.
AoE on MCH was BUFFED last patch but its still very awkward to use when the two strongest buttons that you have are both single target.

Esteem does AoE Damage why can't my gundam do that too?

All Square really needs to do to make Phys ranged relevant is just to add more phases with ads who need to be interrupted.
Everyone will shut up the moment the devs make it so you NEED someone other than the tanks to press interject.