Rework Riase

Raise is a doom spell for SMN and RDM and I believe this spell caused tons of balance issue for DPS jobs.

Here is my suggestion:

• If someone died, it will have respawn timer, this timer will increase based on how much player died starting from 60s,120s,240s,can't be revived unless healers raise them.
• Remove raise completely from DPS jobs and have some alternatives for SMN,RDM to reduce their respawn timers.
• Remove death debuff for first 2 deaths at least.

Respawn timer will let players have room to recover and DPS jobs will not be doomed because of this feature

this is a lot of needless complexity you're trying to shoehorn into the game, all to remove a lot of the identity behind RDM and SMN, two of the more well received jobs in the current design philosophy dumpster fire

no thanks, cool story tho

Or you could just standardize Raise as a 'Phoenix Down' ranged role action (with a fixed number of uses, contingent on content difficulty, and no MP cost) and have it no longer count against a job's DPS output.

I think it would just be easier to replace Verraise with like Vermedica or something, and buff RDM's damage. I have Thoughts™ on why Verraise is actually hurting RDM's identity that because of it, RDM is basically forced to play permanently 'white shifted' when RDM is all about balance.

And then rework Summon Phoenix, make it like a 3 minute cool down separate from SMN's damage rotation, and lock a couple of instant rez charges behind the summon while also buffing it's regen capabilities. Should water down SMN rezzes enough to also warrant some damage buffs, and gives SMN a pretty cool, and thematic situational summon.

And finally reduce the cast time on healer rezzes down to 3 seconds. If we're removing rez responsibilities from DPS, then it needs to be made easier on healers.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Or you could just standardize Raise as a 'Phoenix Down' ranged role action (with a fixed number of uses, contingent on content difficulty, and no MP cost) and have it no longer count against a job's DPS output.

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I have though of this before and I think it will have an issue regarding the balance.

So I suggest there is a raise mages which is healers,
and support dps which cannot raise, but they can lower death timer by 50% or 25% which is a mid between having a raise and not having raise at all.

it will keep their identity of having utility to reduce death timer and also removing the idea of nerfing them to the ground because they have raise

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I think it would just be easier to replace Verraise with like Vermedica or something, and buff RDM's damage. I have Thoughts™ on why Verraise is actually hurting RDM's identity that because of it, RDM is basically forced to play permanently 'white shifted' when RDM is all about balance.

And then rework Summon Phoenix, make it like a 3 minute cool down separate from SMN's damage rotation, and lock a couple of instant rez charges behind the summon while also buffing it's regen capabilities. Should water down SMN rezzes enough to also warrant some damage buffs, and gives SMN a pretty cool, and thematic situational summon.

And finally reduce the cast time on healer rezzes down to 3 seconds. If we're removing rez responsibilities from DPS, then it needs to be made easier on healers.

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well, your suggestion is valid, but I don't think Vermedica would be enough of an identity,

Increasing summoner raise to 3 min is also a solution but raise is a raise, it will still an issue and if SMN and PCT have same damage SMN will be superior because they has a game-changing too powerful of a spell.

Instant cast raise for healer is actually healthy for the game,you can balance it by having higher cooldowns

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

I have though of this before and I think it will have an issue regarding the balance.

So I suggest there is a raise mages which is healers,
and support dps which cannot raise, but they can lower death timer by 50% or 25% which is a mid between having a raise and not having raise at all.

it will keep their identity of having utility to reduce death timer and also removing the idea of nerfing them to the ground because they have raise

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

this is a lot of needless complexity you're trying to shoehorn into the game, all to remove a lot of the identity behind RDM and SMN, two of the more well received jobs in the current design philosophy dumpster fire

no thanks, cool story tho

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if an identity is causing a balance issue then the identity do not need to be removed, but reworked an adjusted

Raise is not an issue, it's an excuse. Just like party utility and everything else.

Main change it needs is to prevent itself from being overwritten so auto-pilot healers/casters stop wasting GCDs/MP reviving everyone twice. But even then, it might not stop two from snapping at the same time.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

this is a lot of needless complexity you're trying to shoehorn into the game, all to remove a lot of the identity behind RDM and SMN, two of the more well received jobs in the current design philosophy dumpster fire

no thanks, cool story tho

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Since when is SMN well received, it was dumped like yesterdays kitty litter as soon as another caster came out

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Or you could just standardize Raise as a 'Phoenix Down' ranged role action (with a fixed number of uses, contingent on content difficulty, and no MP cost) and have it no longer count against a job's DPS output.

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What about if someone wants to play a purely selfish ranged class and doesn’t want to deal with raise

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Raise is not an issue, it's an excuse. Just like party utility and everything else.

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but it is an issue,

if SMN and BLM do the same damage,, why do someone play BLM?

having the strongest healer spell in the game in DPS jobs will cause a balance issue

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

well, your suggestion is valid, but I don't think Vermedica would be enough of an identity,

Increasing summoner raise to 3 min is also a solution but raise is a raise, it will still an issue and if SMN and PCT have same damage SMN will be superior because they has a game-changing too powerful of a spell.

Instant cast raise for healer is actually healthy for the game,you can balance it by having higher cooldowns

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RDM's core mechanical identity is actually Dual Cast. The job fundamentally cannot exist with out Dual Cast, but I think it can survive pretty easily with out Verraise. Vermedica would just be a simple AOE heal spell, and would have more general uses, and interacts quite nicely with Dual Cast whereas Verraise is only useful when party members have been KO'd. The clutch play would become about keeping people alive, and preventing deaths versus scraping them off the floor after the fact like how it's played now.

Here is why locking rezzes behind Phoenix might work. Phoenix would have other things it can do like deal some damage, dish out some heals, the excog, and the rezzes. By presenting so many other choices to players, the rezzes lose a lot of weight. Phoenix would also have a limited time for when you can actually use everything. Maybe you use it during down time for the heals or maybe you found some sweaty spot to squeeze out some extra damage. The ability, and SMN gets balance around the possibility of the rezzes not being used. Compared to RDM where Verraise's only use is to raise, and why I think it's a little more problematic that SMN's rez.

Heck, Phoenix rezzes could even work like re-raisers where you put a buff on someone, and they only rez if they get KO'd making it even trickier to use it as rez tool.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Raise is not an issue, it's an excuse. Just like party utility and everything else.

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in fact, if the rdm does less damage than the blm, it is mainly because
- it doesnt have 2 timers to take into account to maintain the damage
- it doesnt have procs,
- has 1.5s of slidecastable casts + dual cast + instant non positional melee combo.

It's always been like this. With an old smn that did practically the same damage as the blm even if it had raise.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

if SMN and BLM do the same damage,, why do someone play BLM?

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They don't however, so this discussion is hypothetical and meaningless.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

RDM's core mechanical identity is actually Dual Cast. The job fundamentally cannot exist with out Dual Cast, but I think it can survive pretty easily with out Verraise. Vermedica would just be a simple AOE heal spell, and would have more general uses, and interacts quite nicely with Dual Cast whereas Verraise is only useful when party members have been KO'd. The clutch play would become about keeping people alive, and preventing deaths versus scraping them off the floor after the fact like how it's played now.

Here is why locking rezzes behind Phoenix might work. Phoenix would have other things it can do like deal some damage, dish out some heals, the excog, and the rezzes. By presenting so many other choices to players, the rezzes lose a lot of weight. Phoenix would also have a limited time for when you can actually use everything. Maybe you use it during down time for the heals or maybe you found some sweaty spot to squeeze out some extra damage. The ability, and SMN gets balance around the possibility of the rezzes not being used. Compared to RDM where Verraise's only use is to raise, and why I think it's a little more problematic that SMN's rez.

Heck, Phoenix rezzes could even work like re-raisers where you put a buff on someone, and they only rez if they get KO'd making it even trickier to use as a rez tool.

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Dual cast is mechanically its core identity, and essentially RDM kit is mix between WHM and BLM.. they can take spells from both kits, but not all like Xeno from BLM and your suggestion that Raise also.

While I see that AOE healing is a great addition to RDM kit, but RDM got introduced with insta cast raise in 4.0, that was a huge mistake, people now attach raise with RDM.

the idea of summoner could give living dead buff to party is appealing NGL, but it to balance it is so hard,

like if we are imagining SMN do same damage as BLM why do someone want to play BLM?

this is the idea that I feel rezz fall apart, it is the strongest ability in the game more than Homegang and hollowed ground.

giving it free for DPS is a mistake even if it 1 time per party,

in the end we will reach to the point where SMN have lower damage than other DPS because of phenix rezz

Raise is fine.

"Raise is an identity" lolwut, since when.

SMN is about summoning things and perform actions involving summons. That box has been clearly checked and the main issue is that it is a bit too simon-says.

RDM's identities are dualcast (across almost every single iteration to my knowledge, at least older titles and Bravely), melee techs and a degree of offensive and defensive/restorative balance in the spells - in the case of FFXIV it's more about the Black Magic + White Magic balance instead.

Having "okay" heals were definitely part of every Red Mage iteration - Raise was not always existing however as depending on the game it was considered too high in spell tiers to be put in Red Mage toolkits.

Raise is not an identity, it is a tool that could be replaced easily with something else like an oGCD Vermedica, which by the way would synergize with Magick Barrier.

But if we really insist on keeping Raises, I personally would recommend looking at BLU's raise since it has a cooldown.

Eh. One thing they could do is giving us some small build choices I guess. Swap between Raise or an extra damage/support skill as you want outside of duty.

Then done, you don't have to carry Raise's dead weight in easier content.

Why do I feel like you guys gonna complain about this at some point if they do remove raise from smn and rdm

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

"Raise is an identity" lolwut, since when.

SMN is about summoning things and perform actions involving summons. That box has been clearly checked and the main issue is that it is a bit too simon-says.

RDM's identities are dualcast (across almost every single iteration to my knowledge, at least older titles and Bravely), melee techs and a degree of offensive and defensive/restorative balance in the spells - in the case of FFXIV it's more about the Black Magic + White Magic balance instead.

Having "okay" heals were definitely part of every Red Mage iteration - Raise was not always existing however as depending on the game it was considered too high in spell tiers to be put in Red Mage toolkits.

Raise is not an identity, it is a tool that could be replaced easily with something else like an oGCD Vermedica, which by the way would synergize with Magick Barrier.

But if we really insist on keeping Raises, I personally would recommend looking at BLU's raise since it has a cooldown.

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if we consider BLU's mage solution then it is still a raise, raise is strongest skill in RDM and SMN, they will be OP even with 60,90,120,240 or even per encounter.

if we want to have same damage as BLM and PCT then they will be a better option.

let's say RDM can have only 1 raise per encounter and they can do heals too even if it was at high cooldowns, then how much RDM can do of BLM? 80%? 90%? same damage? let's consider balance in this question

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Why do I feel like you guys gonna complain about this at some point if they do remove raise from smn and rdm

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but people will not complain about RDM/SMN damage no?

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

but people will not complain about RDM/SMN damage no?

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Well most people don't erroneously believe that raise is a reason to deal less damage, but then hey, who am I to speak for everybody else? :P

even if you removed raise from summoner putting it in the same damage category as black mage is a joke with it's current design (apart from just removing rez).

I'm not 100% against removing rez on Smn/Rdm but with how bland class design currently is it feels like we're just removing more things unique about jobs, without actually suggesting anything to make jobs fundamentally play better, this is the issue with current balance as if something doesn't fit in it gets removed then people complain about jobs being samey ect.

Even if we hypothetically removed rez now people will still just pick whatever caster is A: Does the most damage B: Whatever is most fun, Balancing for the top 1% while ignoring the rest of the player base has been shown not to really work out well, because the game gets hyper DPS balanced with no job doing something unique now the meta is to just pick a job based off damage rather then also other things that a job brings to the table, such as rez, rez casters have always had a niche, but now they have to compete with other casters, which imo causes more issues with balance and complaints, because if smn is far behind lets say in 8.0 well now you don't even bring rez so why would you even want Summoner in your group at all.

I might be contrary to say this but I think FF14's "hyper balance" doesn't actually work, If nothing stands out then the meta is solely just based on the slight damage advantages jobs have, but it also makes very boring and static jobs as a side effect.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I might be contrary to say this but I think FF14's "hyper balance" doesn't actually work, If nothing stands out then the meta is solely just based on the slight damage advantages jobs have, but it also makes very boring and static jobs as a side effect.

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Very much agreed. Over the years FFXIV has sanded too many aspects of jobs off, resulting in quite tight balance, but also extremely bland job design. Look at Black Mages having all-instant-cast rotations now, being ~fully mobile. That's just wild.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Very much agreed. Over the years FFXIV has sanded too many aspects of jobs off, resulting in quite tight balance, but also extremely bland job design. Look at Black Mages having all-instant-cast rotations now, being ~fully mobile. That's just wild.

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Yeah pretty much, when you have job design that loses what made the jobs special and feel different from another job in the same category it becomes easy to see at least from a gameplay perspective that jobs will lose out, even if you somehow make a job more viable at the cost of losing things that made it feel different, isn't always actually worth it.

Point is as well and I cannot stress this enough purely looking "meta" wise the only reason why you'd want a Black mage (over Pictomancer) is because your running a double caster comp that wants to maximise damage, but you can't also just buff black mage to be above Pictomancer or the issue will just reverse itself, which introducing Summoner/red mage to be up with BLM/Picto is going to cause a lot of people complaining that now that rdm/smn don't even have a niche or inversely if rdm/smn push blm/picto below it people will complain that blm/picto aren't doing enough, it's a constant cycle of number tuning complaints, which you can get close to "fixing" but at the end of the day a job will always be meta.

I'm not advocating for heavensward or even stormblood design here, because that's had it's issues in the past but surely we've had enough to see that the shadowbringers design doesn't properly work in a lot of ways, static and high end groups are always going to want you playing what's meta and what does top damage, while PF usually isn't against you running anything.

Not fully against the idea of removing rez, if people feel like its needed because more damage will be nice on rdm in particular for me but I also worry if a lot of the changes in 8.0 is just removing stuff that made jobs more unique which we've seen patch after patch, expansion after expansion, I think we need to have a look at seeing if jobs can bring more to the table and gain stuff that is more unique in 8.0.

I agree. I have always been a strong believer that the caster rise is the reason why caster balance has always been bad in ff14. Back in the day smn had close to BLM levels of dps and had a rise leading to ppl wanting smn over blm all time. In EW smn was reworked and dps lowered closer to rdm but ppl still picked them over blm bc they both had a rise and rise is more valuable to most ppl than having a big dps numbers. Now we have picto who is doing really big numbers and does need a nerf but if it is nerfed to smn/rdm levels it become the next blm where it be left to the side and never be picked over a caster who has a rez. Caster balance has never been good bc of this button and its time for it to either be nerfed(make it a role action with a long CD) or completely removed all together so the casters can be more like the melee and be closer in balance. Also, add more complexity to smn plz!!! The job sucks and needs to be harder...the only ppl who like smn are the ppl who just want to turn off their brains...

[QUOTE=MrJPtheAssassin;6636235]I agree. I have always been a strong believer that the caster rise is the reason why caster balance has always been bad in ff14. Back in the day smn had close to BLM levels of dps and had a rise leading to ppl wanting smn over blm all time. In EW smn was reworked and dps lowered closer to rdm but ppl still picked them over blm bc they both had a rise and rise is more valuable to most ppl than having a big dps numbers. /QUOTE]

Interesting game you played there. Which one was it, since it clearly wasn't FF14?

While I’m well aware that ‘just buff everything else’ is 90% of the reason balance is even in it’s current mess, I don’t see why Raise capabilities should be removed because Black Mage is underperforming. I mean, with the logic I’m seeing you’d think Black Mage was literally locked out of every raid tier purely because it didn’t have a Raise spell. Which, I’m pretty sure has (almost) never been a thing, even when during the times it’s been really bad lol

Maybe instead of removing Raise and punishing newer / less experienced players for something they likely don’t even have an understanding of yet (‘Sorry you’re dead but Raise is on its 120s cool-down so I can have an extra 10 potency on my filler attack’) they should look into why Black Mage sucks and actually address those issues? *cough* Pictomancer *cough*

Also what’s this obsession with somehow having all 22 jobs become completely identical perfectly balanced jobs that somehow all have identical maximum/minimum dps ranges? Why is it a bad thing if Red Mage and Summoner do less damage but have additional support capabilities like resurrection and healing? Because they won’t be as high dps as Black Mage? Isn’t that just more homogenisation?

Raise should be a cross class with a 3 mins cooldown. With this case caster should be more easy to balance

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

Raise should be a cross class with a 3 mins cooldown. With this case caster should be more easy to balance

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How to make healer even more useles in one sentence....

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Originally Posted by Lorika

How to make healer even more useles in one sentence....

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Delete healers, give everyone healing spells and a raise/Phoenix down. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

Raise should be a cross class with a 3 mins cooldown. With this case caster should be more easy to balance

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What about people who want to play high damage casters who explicitly don’t want to raise or be secondary support

Ignoring PCT being overpowered in ultimates which is a different problem I don’t want PCT to gain raise as a role action and use that as an excuse to nerf it down to SMN level because of the rezz tax. If I wanted to play a rezzing DPS I’d play RDM

The whole raise-as-a-role-action would only work if we go hard WoW-style:

* Raise is now a healer-only thing.
* Maximum number of uses over a whole combat encounter is capped based on the size, say 1 use for every 4 people in the instance. So 1 in a dungeon, 2 in a raid/trial, 6 in an alliance.

There is a lot of merit in this approach, WoW didn't get to it for no reason after all. They didn't start that way! But I don't think it'd work in FFXIV, because a lot of its design assumes spammable in-combat rezzes.

Dare I say...the swiftraise meta has ran its course entirely. Swiftcast was mandatory on healers in ARR before it became a role action. Every time someone dies in any content the healer(s) instantly, nonchalantly swift-target them, disregarding any duplicate raises in the process (even better when a caster joins in). It might as well be instant-cast if not for the exception being when additional raises are needed beyond that, which is both less common than it used to be and ironically crippled by the duplication scenarios.

It doesn't help that healers have nothing crucial in their one-dimensional kits to use Swiftcast on. If it became a caster role action (with or without a caster role action raise) and healer raises had their cast time reduced to ~5 seconds, it would require a bit more preparation and thinking to use. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

I always found it weird that RDM is better at reviving people than an actual healer with a kit that clearly has Swiftcast baked into it. I don't think RDM should be changed at all tho. Mechanically I like the way the class plays. Instead, I think healers should be prioritized for reviving party members by changing two things.

First, I would alter how 'Weakness' is applied by making it a debuff received from DPS Casters only. The usual 25% for the first death and 50% for the second would still be there like we have now. Healers would instead cause a debuff called 'Fatigue' which would apply a 10% reduction in stats that grows by 10% each time a person is revived to a maximum of 30% after the third revival. I would make 'Fatigue' and 'Weakness' stacking Debuffs so that both could apply simultaneously too. This would make a player benefit more from a healer revive since 'Fatigue' is the lesser punishment. The option to help as a Caster would still exist but healers would definitely bare the primary responsibility. This shift in importance would be a great opportunity to reduce the Rez tax placed on SMN and RDM.

My second change is to reduce the baseline cast time on Revive for all Healers to 3 seconds. This cast time would increase by 1 second for each revive a healer casts while in battle as a permanent stacking penalty up to a maximum of 8 seconds. This would mean it would take a healer casting revive 5 times to reach the 8 second cast time we have now.

These changes would make reviving party members a more tactical decision. They would also support removing the Rez tax from casters and add relevance to healers who have had their responsibilities shaved down to almost nothing in recent expansions.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I think it would just be easier to replace Verraise with like Vermedica or something, and buff RDM's damage. I have Thoughts™ on why Verraise is actually hurting RDM's identity that because of it, RDM is basically forced to play permanently 'white shifted' when RDM is all about balance.

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It'd be less abusable if we just had Dualcast and Acceleration reduce cast times by just 4 or 5 seconds. That would still allow for all the other casts to be instant, but you wouldn't have nigh-infinite truly instant rezzes limited only by your MP.

Apart from that, I'd rather see Phoenix Down as a duty action with a 5s or 8s melee-range cast with 2 charges shared across the party (~3 minute recast), or even a healer self-revive as part of healer LB, with each instance of healing and MP recovery from said LB being halved if the rez is necessary, and the penalty duration being halved on LB2 and of course nullified on LB3. Doing so would deemphasize SMN/RDM without wholly removing their utility.

I do not want to see Raise made an action specific to any particular role. As a BLM or PCT, I wouldn't particularly want it, yet outside a given role, I may nonetheless want it, though with limitations.

I feel like this discussion contributes to a much bigger one that has been slipping since the introduction of RDM. What even is DPS role identity anymore?

What are casters? They used to be damage-dealing turrets with low mobility and higher damage. BLM was the pure turret, and SMN was a more supportive turret with a hard to use raise (based on its link with SCH).
What are phys ranged? They used to be supportive damage dealers with a lot of party utility and movement, while dealing less damage.

Now we have casters with as much mobility as a phys ranged, and the phys ranged have far less interesting and useful utility than they ever have. The "ranged tax" is still in effect for phys ranged despite SMN have almost as much mobility while also having the most useful utility you can get, and that's without talking about how RDMs raise utility is better than healers. We are in a situation right now where half the casters are what Phys ranged should be, and phys ranged are questioning their purpose.

People here screaming that removing raise from casters would affect their identity don't realise that role identity has already been eroded and requires fixing.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

People here screaming that removing raise from casters would affect their identity don't realise that role identity has already been eroded and requires fixing.

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Sure, but you got to start earlier than that, then.

DPS still, primarily, deal damage.

Healers however don't primarily heal, and tanks don't actively tank.

Got to fix the more basic stuff first before arriving at per-job reworks.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Sure, but you got to start earlier than that, then.

DPS still, primarily, deal damage.

Healers however don't primarily heal, and tanks don't actively tank.

Got to fix the more basic stuff first before arriving at per-job reworks.

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Oh I 100% agree. As a tank main I miss tank mechanics, but that is a completely different conversation. I just wanted to identify that the balance between what specific DPS architypes are for (particularly the ranged roles) has slowly been lost.

you really need to use spell checker to correct your spelling

This is a recurring topic that comes up every time, and rather than removing the rez, they should simply give it to all casters as part of their role actions,
with a counter effect for pure DPS-based jobs when using the rez, or with a significant sacrifice.

Alternatively, they could allow the option to activate or deactivate the rez outside of combat, with a power bonus or penalty.
To me, removing the rez rather than standardizing it is completely silly; at least all DPS casters could have utility in both progression and for the weekly clear."