Why not make SMN's Bahamut do Megaflare when it's summoned

Phoenix does Everlasting Flight when summoned and Bahamut doesn't do anything, it seems like a waste. A Megaflare dealing aoe damage around the target would be interesting. It might deal more damage yes but you can just take the damage out of other skills to keep the balance. And yes, I know that the LB (Teraflare) is basically Megaflare but it seems out of place to me. Why not make it another summon like Odin or Alexander do the LB, or even, make it a combined attack of Bahamut of Phoenix?

The reason is simple, just because with the current summoner's mechanics, it wouldn't work.
If Bahamut deals more damage than Phoenix, as it was the case in 6.0, a level 70 summoner would be stronger than a level 80 summoner,
because summoning Phoenix would be a reduction in burst damage.

To implement this, you would need to separate the Bahamut/Phoenix summon buttons to give summoners the choice of whom to summon based on the situation.
For example, by introducing a 1.5-second cast time/2.5s recast for Bahamut and making it stronger than Phoenix in exchange, while keeping Phoenix as an instant cast ability and focused on support.

I don't know what they have in store for the Summoner in 7.0, but many of its mechanics will need a complete overhaul if it is to undergo fundamental changes.
The current rotation has several issues that need to be addressed in order for the future kit to be more refined than it is currently.

If the Summoner remains as it is currently, we'll likely just get different reskins of the existing Legos ''elemental-summon'' and end up with a rotation without real strategic choices, much like it is now.

In my opinion, the best approach without a complete rework would be to separate Phoenix and Bahamut, add three buttons for 3 potentials new summons, and provide three gems that can be spent on three of the six different summons of your choice.

This would involve creating three high-risk, high-damage summons and three medium-damage, mobile summons to allow summoners to consider whether it's worth taking risks to increase their DPS or if it's better to play it safe and avoid a potential KO, even at the cost of some DPS.

I also believe that Energy Drain/Siphon should be removed, and two stacks should be added to Painflare and Fester, which should theoretically be renamed since we no longer use bacteria,
they should, of course, have a shared cooldown, meaning if you use Fester, it consumes 1 stack of Painflare and vice versa.

In return, they could introduce a new resource management system with the Carbuncles, as they currently serve little purpose.
Giving them a real utility and a spell, and removing their role as receptacles for summons would make sense.

Physick should also be removed because its existence no longer makes any sense, as it is entirely useless.

It is time for them to remove useless Arcanist spells that the Summoner still shares with the Scholar because they are fundamentally two distinct jobs, even if they have the same starting foundation.

Agree with everything, but Physick should just scale with INT and be useful for the same niche situations that Vercure is.

Physick should be removed and replaced with absolutely nothing lol.

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Originally Posted by remiff

The reason is simple, just because with the current summoner's mechanics, it wouldn't work.
If Bahamut deals more damage than Phoenix, as it was the case in 6.0, a level 70 summoner would be stronger than a level 80 summoner,
because summoning Phoenix would be a reduction in burst damage.

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And people wonder why the game is so stale job-wise. Just another prime example. I mean Phoenix was lower in damage because it could also heal. Makes a lot of sense to me. But then min-maxers threw a hissy fit and the potency got changed. Small change but exemplary.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

And people wonder why the game is so stale job-wise. Just another prime example. I mean Phoenix was lower in damage because it could also heal. Makes a lot of sense to me. But then min-maxers threw a hissy fit and the potency got changed. Small change but exemplary.

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The issue is that Phoenix is part of a 120-second cycle defined with a burst every 60 seconds,
if you force the use of Phoenix within the same burst, it's not normal.

It wasn't normal for Phoenix to be a DPS loss previously, which they corrected, of course.
The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

Certainly, this would make it situational,
but a Phoenix that deals damage equivalent to Bahamut and provides HP regeneration that is useless if it doesn't align with raid damage or on a similar situation,
when Phoenix is a mandatory part in the rotation, is definitely not the healthiest choice the developers made when designing the summoner's rework.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Physick should be removed and replaced with absolutely nothing lol.

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Let's say that almost no one will mourn this loss, as it has never been useful beyond level 20.
The most unpleasant part would be losing the resurrection, as Yoshi-P mentioned when discussing the Summoner rework for 6.0, stating that resurrection would probably disappear in 7.0.
If they remove the rez and if Physick stay, it would be a real slap in the face to Summoners.

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Originally Posted by remiff

The issue is that Phoenix is part of a 120-second cycle defined with a burst every 60 seconds,
if you force the use of Phoenix within the same burst, it's not normal.

It wasn't normal for Phoenix to be a DPS loss previously, which they corrected, of course.
The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

Certainly, this would make it situational, but a Phoenix that deals damage equivalent to Bahamut and provides HP regeneration that is useless if it doesn't align with raid damage or a similar situation when Phoenix is forced into the rotation is definitely not the healthiest choice the developers made when designing the summoner's rework.



Let's say that almost no one will mourn this loss, as it has never been useful beyond level 20. The most unpleasant part would be losing the resurrection, as Yoshi-P mentioned when discussing the Summoner rework for 6.0, stating that resurrection would probably disappear in 7.0. If they remove the rez and if Physick stay, it would be a real slap in the face to Summoners.

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Resurrection belongs to the Nords healers.

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Originally Posted by remiff

The issue is that Phoenix is part of a 120-second cycle defined with a burst every 60 seconds,
if you force the use of Phoenix within the same burst, it's not normal.

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I know why it happened. My point is to not listen to min-maxers. A slight potency loss doesn't lead to people leaving but balancing the fun out of the combat does. SE should stick to a vision and only listen for feedback in terms of QoL and such.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I know why it happened. My point is to not listen to min-maxers. A slight potency loss doesn't lead to people leaving but balancing the fun out of the combat does. SE should stick to a vision and only listen for feedback in terms of QoL and such.

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It wasn't about min-maxing at all. It's about how upon learning Summon Phoenix you immediately became weaker because Bahamut->Pheonix was objectively weaker than Bahamut->Bahamut, and this isn't a min-maxing issue (because there is no choice involved) but a "leveling up should never make you weaker" issue.

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Originally Posted by remiff

The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

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This is a non solution because then there would be a min-maxing issue in that nobody would ever use Phoenix in a competently played party because there would never be enough incoming damage to require that healing and it would sacrifice dps.

I think you guys kinda have the wrong idea of where the SMN actually needs the work.

And its not 86th and higher, its at lower levels. Once you get to 86th it does start to become more strategic with the added Garuda/Ifrit/Titan Summons powers. Bahamut and Phoenix are the only ones that aren't and those are the ones that haven't changed that much other than the change of the Dreadwyrm Trance timer with Ruin enhancement portion before Bursting.

BUT that was always the part OUTSIDE of your normal SMN rotation.

The strategic portion was all the lower level stuff they removed. You had 5 different DoTs you had to stack which enhanced your Ruin potency, plus pet actions, plus Aetherflow for 3 charges of Painflare/Fester. The second iteration or Stormblood iteration that went down to only 2 or 3 DoTs, and you only got 2 charges of Aetherflow. That was what you normally spent most of your time with in the Previous iterations of SMN... ie... all the Arcanist stuff. That's why sub-86th its mostly just ruin spam now, because that's all that's left were the only portions of it that were an actual Summoner of the original job.

So the actual key to making it more "strategic" is in those lower level abilities. They actually did a really good job with the Ifrit/Garuda/Titan summons with regards to that, but you don't see that until 86th level. They are way more strategic than Bahamut or Phoenix ever were. But what used to keep you occupied while you were waiting for those 2 was all those DoTs, Pet Ablilities, and Aetherflow powers you no longer have.

Nothing you do with the Higher level powers will change any of that. So you need to understand that right off the bat. The work needs to be done at lower levels.

As to the high level stuff in 7.0, I am actually partial to the 3 more Legos under the Phoenix Summon. Hopefully they are just as strategic as the current Ifrit/Garuda/Titan summon powers are. But that again is not where it needs the work... its at the lower levels.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

It wasn't about min-maxing at all. It's about how upon learning Summon Phoenix you immediately became weaker because Bahamut->Pheonix was objectively weaker than Bahamut->Bahamut, and this isn't a min-maxing issue (because there is no choice involved) but a "leveling up should never make you weaker" issue.



This is a non solution because then there would be a min-maxing issue in that nobody would ever use Phoenix in a competently played party because there would never be enough incoming damage to require that healing and it would sacrifice dps.

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Yes, it would be entirely situational, so people who maximize DPS will hardly ever use it, or maybe never use it unless the fight demands a ton of mobility and Bahamut becomes more of a turret-like phase.

The issue is that the current functionality of Phoenix is essentially just a reskin of Bahamut with some regeneration, and it still isn't the best design.
If Phoenix remains as it is today, things will never evolve, and it will always be Bahamut -> Titan, Ifrit, Garuda -> Phoenix > maybe Shiva, Leviathan, Ramuh.

And if the rotation follows this logic, the new elemental summons will simply be reskins of Ifrit, Titan, Garuda.

I know this would favor min-maxing for more experienced players, but isn't it a valid choice for a summoner to have the option to choose their summons based on the situation?
That's how Yoshi-p originally sold the rework and that was actually not the case, the only strategic choice in the current summoner rotation is not to use Ifrit during needing mobility phases; everything else simply doesn't require any thought.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I think you guys kinda have the wrong idea of where the SMN actually needs the work.

And its not 86th and higher, its at lower levels. Once you get to 86th it does start to become more strategic with the added Garuda/Ifrit/Titan Summons powers. Bahamut and Phoenix are the only ones that aren't and those are the ones that haven't changed that much other than the change of the Dreadwyrm Trance timer with Ruin enhancement portion before Bursting.

BUT that was always the part OUTSIDE of your normal SMN rotation.

The strategic portion was all the lower level stuff they removed. You had 5 different DoTs you had to stack which enhanced your Ruin potency, plus pet actions, plus Aetherflow for 3 charges of Painflare/Fester. The second iteration or Stormblood iteration that went down to only 2 or 3 DoTs, and you only got 2 charges of Aetherflow. That was what you normally spent most of your time with in the Previous iterations of SMN... ie... all the Arcanist stuff. That's why sub-86th its mostly just ruin spam now, because that's all that's left those were the only portions of it that were an actual Summoner of the original job.

So the actual key to making it more "strategic" is in those lower level abilities. They actually did a really good job with the Ifrit/Garuda/Titan summons with regards to that, but you don't see that until 86th level. They are way more strategic than Bahamut or Phoenix ever were. But what used to keep you occupied while you were waiting for those 2 was all those DoTs, Pet Ablilities, and Aetherflow powers you no longer have.

Nothing you do with the Higher level powers will change any of that. So you need to understand that right off the bat. The work needs to be done at lower levels.

As to the high level stuff in 7.0, I am actually partial to the 3 more Legos under the Phoenix Summon. Hopefully they are just as strategic as the current Ifrit/Garuda/Titan summon powers are. But that again is not where it needs the work... its at the lower levels.

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I would need you to explain where the strategic aspect of Garuda and Titan is, as everyone uses Swiftcast for Garuda, and Titan is the best of the three while also providing 100% mobility.
Only Ifrit in the mix is a real strategic choice because of its long casts and a gap closer that can lead to a KO if used at the wrong moment or for cast canceling during mobility phases.

But the rest of the rotation is similar to Bahamut and Phoenix, which is why introducing three new légos would simply bring no freshness but only reskin.
And yes, it's clear that they should reduce the level of the 86 trait, but it's not the only issue with the current summoner.

The gameplay seems entirely incomplete, and resource management has become non-existent.

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Originally Posted by remiff

I would need you to explain where the strategic aspect of Garuda and Titan is, as everyone uses Swiftcast for Garuda, and Titan is the best of the three while also providing 100% mobility.
Only Ifrit in the mix is a real strategic choice because of its long casts and a gap closer that can lead to a KO if used at the wrong moment or for cast canceling during mobility phases.

But the rest of the rotation is similar to Bahamut and Phoenix, which is why introducing three new légos would simply bring no freshness but only reskin.
And yes, it's clear that they should reduce the level of the 86 trait, but it's not the only issue with the current summoner.

The gameplay seems entirely incomplete, and resource management has become non-existent.

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Well you can use swiftcast for Garuda/Slipstream, but then you're screwed if you have to Res someone. Which even to this day I have to do in the higher level content.
So that may not be the smartest use of your swiftcast and it can cost you if you do. Not that you can't hard Res someone... but that's way longer cast time than Slipstream.

That said, the strategic use of Slipstream really isn't about the casting time its more about having to strategically use it during a segment where the boss mob won't be moving. The Garuda casts are very short and allow mobility, but they are very low damage comparatively unless you lay down your Slipstream first (DoT) as they're based on increasing the DPS when used on top of that. You do Slipstream at the wrong time, your DPS takes a hit.

This is why I support the 3 new Legos... assuming they have this kind of built in tactical usage.

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Originally Posted by remiff

I know this would favor min-maxing for more experienced players, but isn't it a valid choice for a summoner to have the option to choose their summons based on the situation?

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There is choice and then there is "choice". Being able to "chose" between Bahamut and Phoenix would be "choice" because some people would choose the correct answer and some people would choose Phoenix.

All fights in the game are designed such that that healers can handle all the healing. Pulling out Phoenix to help would lose more dps than just letting the healers do the job themselves, so it wouldn't actually be helping at all.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

There is choice and then there is "choice". Being able to "chose" between Bahamut and Phoenix would be "choice" because some people would choose the correct answer and some people would choose Phoenix.

All fights in the game are designed such that that healers can handle all the healing. Pulling out Phoenix to help would lose more dps than just letting the healers do the job themselves, so it wouldn't actually be helping at all.

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They can always rework phoenix effect,
although I doubt they would since they seem to like giving team heal/hot effects on DPS/TANK jobs.

Personally I am against the effects of heal/regen,
but for pheonix i don't see what devs could do other than give an instant ressurection,
which they probably won't do since they're talking about removing the summoner's rez.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

There is choice and then there is "choice". Being able to "chose" between Bahamut and Phoenix would be "choice" because some people would choose the correct answer and some people would choose Phoenix.

All fights in the game are designed such that that healers can handle all the healing. Pulling out Phoenix to help would lose more dps than just letting the healers do the job themselves, so it wouldn't actually be helping at all.

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By this logic there’s absolutely no point in any kind of dps or rotational / ability variation on Summoner whatsoever. So…it’s perfect the way it is?

I mean, it’s literally straight up impossible for them to make a decision between two abilities without one becoming numerically superior . So using the logic of ‘these decisions must never happen because one will always be better than the other’, just means locking all jobs into the current design they have (no choices, conveyor belt rotations, no utility) for eternity. Why give Summoner a complex rotation with DoTs and oGCDs when people will chose the wrong ones? It can just have a small indistinct set of abilities that are all mostly the exact same. Now nobody will ever make the wrong decision again

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Originally Posted by Rongway

It wasn't about min-maxing at all. It's about how upon learning Summon Phoenix you immediately became weaker because Bahamut->Pheonix was objectively weaker than Bahamut->Bahamut, and this isn't a min-maxing issue (because there is no choice involved) but a "leveling up should never make you weaker" issue.

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That is exactly what min-maxing is. And you didn't get weaker. You got a heal with it. And as I said before, min-maxers throw a tamper tantrum because less DPS bad. That is the issue and one of the reasons why jobs are as bland as they are.

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Originally Posted by Connor

By this logic there’s absolutely no point in any kind of dps or rotational / ability variation on Summoner whatsoever. So…it’s perfect the way it is?

I mean, it’s literally straight up impossible for them to make a decision between two abilities without one becoming numerically superior . So using the logic of ‘these decisions must never happen because one will always be better than the other’, just means locking all jobs into the current design they have (no choices, conveyor belt rotations, no utility) for eternity. Why give Summoner a complex rotation with DoTs and oGCDs when people will chose the wrong ones? It can just have a small indistinct set of abilities that are all mostly the exact same. Now nobody will ever make the wrong decision again

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And then people complain because a job is brain-dead or on autopilot. Yeah, don't listen to min-maxer in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That is exactly what min-maxing is. And you didn't get weaker. You got a heal with it. And as I said before, min-maxers throw a tamper tantrum because less DPS bad. That is the issue and one of the reasons why jobs are as bland as they are.

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No, min maxing means you have a choice. Getting Phoenix doesn't give you a choice, therefore, no min maxing has been done. This is the whole reason Phoenix was buffed fairly quickly, to make it equal to Bahamut, so that you don't do less just by levelling.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

No, min maxing means you have a choice. Getting Phoenix doesn't give you a choice, therefore, no min maxing has been done. This is the whole reason Phoenix was buffed fairly quickly, to make it equal to Bahamut, so that you don't do less just by levelling.

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By complaining about it you influence the design so your numbers get bigger again. It's min-maxing of a different order. And isn't the point of that mindset that there are no options but only one correct way?

What these complaints fail to recognise is that these numbers don't happen in a vacuum. I've already seen people advocating for the removal of raise on certain jobs. The whole discussion boils down to shortsightedness and only seeing one's own DPS not the game as a whole two expansions in a row. Y to the P said so himself when he pointed out that he was only obliging players (like with the 2 minute meta). That's why you should leave the game design to, y'know, game designers.

Gear being equal, a level 79 summoner would be doing more* damage than a level 80 in crown of the immaculate at ew launch. This is an unnegotiatable nerf at no fault to the player, and outside of aethercharge dodginess the only instance of getting weaker as a result of obtaining more levels. It is entirely disconnected to minmaxing, more related to being entirely contrary to their design philosophy.

Minmaxing would be pet jiggling to delay aetherpact/devotion, vengeance under inner release or prepull doton. Except all of those were removed come endwalker.

*fairly certain the 1 level stat increase didn’t outweigh it.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

By complaining about it you influence the design so your numbers get bigger again. It's min-maxing of a different order. And isn't the point of that mindset that there are no options but only one correct way?

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I don't believe someone can miss the mark this much. Levelling up reducing your jobs potential shouldn't be something that happens. This has nothing to do with having a res, this has nothing to do with min maxing, this is just bad job design.

Imagine if, upon hitting 76, Dragoons get access to Raiden Thrust, but it does 200 potency, but it has a heal (True thrust is 230 potency for reference), would that be fine?

If Monk's Phantom Rush done 800 potency (Tornado Kick is 850) but it added a heal for the whole party.

Imagine if, you get to level 80 and get access to Phoenix, but compared to Bahamut, you lose 650 potency, but you get a party wide regen, oh wait, that is exactly what Summoner had.

Again, this isn't min maxing, this is a flaw in the design of the job.

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Originally Posted by remiff

The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

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I don't see an issue in equalizing (or nearly doing so) Bahamut and Phoenix's dps. The issue is more like both demis are almost just a reskin of each other - you press the same gcds x6 and fill in the 2 ogcds somewhere, difference is that Phoenix has one of those being a heal. If the 3 gemstones can make their buttons promote somewhat of different playstyles, why not the Demis?

I feel in a game like XIV, if Phoenix was just an opt choice for support healing for less dps, we'd rarely see it in group content as well as rarely seeing Bahamut during solo activities where sustained HP is important (like Deep Dungeons solo).

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

And people wonder why the game is so stale job-wise. Just another prime example. I mean Phoenix was lower in damage because it could also heal. Makes a lot of sense to me. But then min-maxers threw a hissy fit and the potency got changed. Small change but exemplary.

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FFXIV in a nutshell.

Squabbling over whether this one specific instance was the result of min maxing is dodging the overall issue imo which is that a certain kind of player (whether they are minmaxing in one instance or not) gives feedback that streamlines and steamrolls jobs for high end content.

Also minmaxing does not have all this arbitrary nonsense like "it must have a choice". At this point people just use the term to denote dry and unimaginative job Design that no one outside a tiny % of players enjoys.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I don't see an issue in equalizing (or nearly doing so) Bahamut and Phoenix's dps. The issue is more like both demis are almost just a reskin of each other - you press the same gcds x6 and fill in the 2 ogcds somewhere, difference is that Phoenix has one of those being a heal. If the 3 gemstones can make their buttons promote somewhat of different playstyles, why not the Demis?

I feel in a game like XIV, if Phoenix was just an opt choice for support healing for less dps, we'd rarely see it in group content as well as rarely seeing Bahamut during solo activities where sustained HP is important (like Deep Dungeons solo).

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Phoenix was cool in Shadowbringers and was relatively different from Bahamut.
Now, Bahamut and Phoenix are essentially the same, except one provides situational regen.

It's not a problem that Phoenix is as strong as Bahamut, but it's a shame that these two summons no longer have their unique mechanics.

Before, Bahamut had a semi-turret phase where you had to use ruin IV for optimization, and Phoenix had a mobile phase with a combo.
However, they managed to erase the distinction that used to exist between the two, personally i don't believe they will revert this change.

I think the Summoner in PvP has more flavor in certain aspects, but unfortunately, it wouldn't fit well in PvE, I'm aware of that.
However, I still believe that having the choice is good if the alternative offers a real advantage, even if it doesn't necessarily result in more DPS,
yes people who seek parsing and optimization might not use it, but they represent a minor percentage of the community.

But of course, they will never go for such a design, and obviously, it wouldn't please everyone.
However, to be honest, I'm not sure how they could make the Summoner better than it is currently while keeping its current mechanics.

Adding three more lego after Phoenix won't fundamentally change its rotation since they would have to align with how Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan work but with a different appearance,
that's why I think the rework needs another rework and several changes in lower level.

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Originally Posted by remiff

Phoenix was cool in Shadowbringers and was relatively different from Bahamut.
Now, Bahamut and Phoenix are essentially the same, except one provides situational regen.

It's not a problem that Phoenix is as strong as Bahamut, but it's a shame that these two summons no longer have their unique mechanics.

Before, Bahamut had a semi-turret phase where you had to use ruin IV for optimization, and Phoenix had a mobile phase with a combo.
However, they managed to erase the distinction that used to exist between the two, personally i don't believe they will revert this change.

I think the Summoner in PvP has more flavor in certain aspects, but unfortunately, it wouldn't fit well in PvE, I'm aware of that.
However, I still believe that having the choice is good if the alternative offers a real advantage, even if it doesn't necessarily result in more DPS,
yes people who seek parsing and optimization might not use it, but they represent a minor percentage of the community.

But of course, they will never go for such a design, and obviously, it wouldn't please everyone.
However, to be honest, I'm not sure how they could make the Summoner better than it is currently while keeping its current mechanics.

Adding three more lego after Phoenix won't fundamentally change its rotation since they would have to align with how Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan work but with a different appearance,
that's why I think the rework needs another rework and several changes in lower level.

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It's not a problem in and of itself. It's a problem that devs interpret feedback as "just adjust potency". There seems be some implying going on ITT that devs have come up with this idea just out of nowhere and that minmaxers/optimizers have nothing to do with it. I don't really buy that. Maybe "we just want the leveling progression to make sense" is the means but we ultimately know the goal and I very highly doubt it has to do with the average Joe doing MSQ. The average Joe playing a class just wants the solution that makes SMN fun to play-- the minmaxer raider wants Bahamut and Phoenix to be the same. Can we not just be honest here...and to be clear I agree with your quote I'm just asking the general question.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

words

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And then a new expansion drops and you're weaker again. Big whoop. I really don't care. You fail to see the point I was making. Min-maxers should have no say over design. Period. And, again, you're not weaker, you gained a heal as compensation. If people don't see healing as valuable (I can certainly see where they're coming from) that's ultimately their decision. Even if we exclude SMN, we're still left with enough other cases.

If in dawntrail every other full blood lily gauge instead only let you cast afflatus fishery with 1000 potency but providing the effect of chum I’m certain whm mains would not be thrilled. (Afflatus misery being 1240 potency)

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

And then a new expansion drops and you're weaker again. Big whoop. I really don't care. You fail to see the point I was making. Min-maxers should have no say over design. Period. And, again, you're not weaker, you gained a heal as compensation. If people don't see healing as valuable (I can certainly see where they're coming from) that's ultimately their decision. Even if we exclude SMN, we're still left with enough other cases.

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Again, trying to put this down to min maxing has blinded you to the core issue. So, for the last time, here are the details:

I will look at potency over a time, this is stat and level independent.

On the release of EW, Bahamut's potency profile looked like this for single target:

6x Astral Impulse at 430 potency = 2580 total potency
1x Death Flare at 500 potency = 500 potency
1x Akh Morn at 1300 potency = 1300 potency
Total potency = 4380

For Phoenix:
6x Fountain of Fire at 430 potency = 2580 potency
1x Revelation at 1300 potency = 1300 potency
Total potency = 3880

So, just for levelling to 80, you lost 500 potency worth of damage every 2 minutes just because you levelled up. This is why I used examples of other jobs getting upgrades that do less potency, but have a heal and ask, does that make sense? Because those are the exact same situations that Summoner ended up in. You can either say, yes, that isn't fair or you can say, no, stupid min maxers are complaining for no reason.

If you still fail to see how this wasn't a min max issue then I am sorry for your lack of understanding and I am glad you are not on the job design/balance team.

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Originally Posted by remiff

If Bahamut deals more damage than Phoenix, as it was the case in 6.0, a level 70 summoner would be stronger than a level 80 summoner,
because summoning Phoenix would be a reduction in burst damage.

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OP already addressed this in their original post:

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Originally Posted by Vandso

It might deal more damage yes but you can just take the damage out of other skills to keep the balance.

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