Why not make SMN's Bahamut do Megaflare when it's summoned

[Vandso]

Phoenix does Everlasting Flight when summoned and Bahamut doesn't do anything, it seems like a waste. A Megaflare dealing aoe damage around the target would be interesting. It might deal more damage yes but you can just take the damage out of other skills to keep the balance. And yes, I know that the LB (Teraflare) is basically Megaflare but it seems out of place to me. Why not make it another summon like Odin or Alexander do the LB, or even, make it a combined attack of Bahamut of Phoenix?

[remiff]

The reason is simple, just because with the current summoner's mechanics, it wouldn't work.
If Bahamut deals more damage than Phoenix, as it was the case in 6.0, a level 70 summoner would be stronger than a level 80 summoner,
because summoning Phoenix would be a reduction in burst damage.

To implement this, you would need to separate the Bahamut/Phoenix summon buttons to give summoners the choice of whom to summon based on the situation.
For example, by introducing a 1.5-second cast time/2.5s recast for Bahamut and making it stronger than Phoenix in exchange, while keeping Phoenix as an instant cast ability and focused on support.

I don't know what they have in store for the Summoner in 7.0, but many of its mechanics will need a complete overhaul if it is to undergo fundamental changes.
The current rotation has several issues that need to be addressed in order for the future kit to be more refined than it is currently.

If the Summoner remains as it is currently, we'll likely just get different reskins of the existing Legos ''elemental-summon'' and end up with a rotation without real strategic choices, much like it is now.

In my opinion, the best approach without a complete rework would be to separate Phoenix and Bahamut, add three buttons for 3 potentials new summons, and provide three gems that can be spent on three of the six different summons of your choice.

This would involve creating three high-risk, high-damage summons and three medium-damage, mobile summons to allow summoners to consider whether it's worth taking risks to increase their DPS or if it's better to play it safe and avoid a potential KO, even at the cost of some DPS.

I also believe that Energy Drain/Siphon should be removed, and two stacks should be added to Painflare and Fester, which should theoretically be renamed since we no longer use bacteria,
they should, of course, have a shared cooldown, meaning if you use Fester, it consumes 1 stack of Painflare and vice versa.

In return, they could introduce a new resource management system with the Carbuncles, as they currently serve little purpose.
Giving them a real utility and a spell, and removing their role as receptacles for summons would make sense.

Physick should also be removed because its existence no longer makes any sense, as it is entirely useless.

It is time for them to remove useless Arcanist spells that the Summoner still shares with the Scholar because they are fundamentally two distinct jobs, even if they have the same starting foundation.

[Raikai]

Agree with everything, but Physick should just scale with INT and be useful for the same niche situations that Vercure is.

[BaconBits]

Physick should be removed and replaced with absolutely nothing lol.

[Payadopa]

The reason is simple, just because with the current summoner's mechanics, it wouldn't work.
If Bahamut deals more damage than Phoenix, as it was the case in 6.0, a level 70 summoner would be stronger than a level 80 summoner,
because summoning Phoenix would be a reduction in burst damage.

And people wonder why the game is so stale job-wise. Just another prime example. I mean Phoenix was lower in damage because it could also heal. Makes a lot of sense to me. But then min-maxers threw a hissy fit and the potency got changed. Small change but exemplary.

[remiff]

And people wonder why the game is so stale job-wise. Just another prime example. I mean Phoenix was lower in damage because it could also heal. Makes a lot of sense to me. But then min-maxers threw a hissy fit and the potency got changed. Small change but exemplary.

The issue is that Phoenix is part of a 120-second cycle defined with a burst every 60 seconds,
if you force the use of Phoenix within the same burst, it's not normal.

It wasn't normal for Phoenix to be a DPS loss previously, which they corrected, of course.
The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

Certainly, this would make it situational,
but a Phoenix that deals damage equivalent to Bahamut and provides HP regeneration that is useless if it doesn't align with raid damage or on a similar situation,
when Phoenix is a mandatory part in the rotation, is definitely not the healthiest choice the developers made when designing the summoner's rework.

Physick should be removed and replaced with absolutely nothing lol.

Let's say that almost no one will mourn this loss, as it has never been useful beyond level 20.
The most unpleasant part would be losing the resurrection, as Yoshi-P mentioned when discussing the Summoner rework for 6.0, stating that resurrection would probably disappear in 7.0.
If they remove the rez and if Physick stay, it would be a real slap in the face to Summoners.

[BaconBits]

The issue is that Phoenix is part of a 120-second cycle defined with a burst every 60 seconds,
if you force the use of Phoenix within the same burst, it's not normal.

It wasn't normal for Phoenix to be a DPS loss previously, which they corrected, of course.
The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

Certainly, this would make it situational, but a Phoenix that deals damage equivalent to Bahamut and provides HP regeneration that is useless if it doesn't align with raid damage or a similar situation when Phoenix is forced into the rotation is definitely not the healthiest choice the developers made when designing the summoner's rework.



Let's say that almost no one will mourn this loss, as it has never been useful beyond level 20. The most unpleasant part would be losing the resurrection, as Yoshi-P mentioned when discussing the Summoner rework for 6.0, stating that resurrection would probably disappear in 7.0. If they remove the rez and if Physick stay, it would be a real slap in the face to Summoners.

Resurrection belongs to the Nords healers.

[Raikai]

The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

I don't see an issue in equalizing (or nearly doing so) Bahamut and Phoenix's dps. The issue is more like both demis are almost just a reskin of each other - you press the same gcds x6 and fill in the 2 ogcds somewhere, difference is that Phoenix has one of those being a heal. If the 3 gemstones can make their buttons promote somewhat of different playstyles, why not the Demis?

I feel in a game like XIV, if Phoenix was just an opt choice for support healing for less dps, we'd rarely see it in group content as well as rarely seeing Bahamut during solo activities where sustained HP is important (like Deep Dungeons solo).

[remiff]

I don't see an issue in equalizing (or nearly doing so) Bahamut and Phoenix's dps. The issue is more like both demis are almost just a reskin of each other - you press the same gcds x6 and fill in the 2 ogcds somewhere, difference is that Phoenix has one of those being a heal. If the 3 gemstones can make their buttons promote somewhat of different playstyles, why not the Demis?

I feel in a game like XIV, if Phoenix was just an opt choice for support healing for less dps, we'd rarely see it in group content as well as rarely seeing Bahamut during solo activities where sustained HP is important (like Deep Dungeons solo).

Phoenix was cool in Shadowbringers and was relatively different from Bahamut.
Now, Bahamut and Phoenix are essentially the same, except one provides situational regen.

It's not a problem that Phoenix is as strong as Bahamut, but it's a shame that these two summons no longer have their unique mechanics.

Before, Bahamut had a semi-turret phase where you had to use ruin IV for optimization, and Phoenix had a mobile phase with a combo.
However, they managed to erase the distinction that used to exist between the two, personally i don't believe they will revert this change.

I think the Summoner in PvP has more flavor in certain aspects, but unfortunately, it wouldn't fit well in PvE, I'm aware of that.
However, I still believe that having the choice is good if the alternative offers a real advantage, even if it doesn't necessarily result in more DPS,
yes people who seek parsing and optimization might not use it, but they represent a minor percentage of the community.

But of course, they will never go for such a design, and obviously, it wouldn't please everyone.
However, to be honest, I'm not sure how they could make the Summoner better than it is currently while keeping its current mechanics.

Adding three more lego after Phoenix won't fundamentally change its rotation since they would have to align with how Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan work but with a different appearance,
that's why I think the rework needs another rework and several changes in lower level.

[Turtledeluxe]

Phoenix was cool in Shadowbringers and was relatively different from Bahamut.
Now, Bahamut and Phoenix are essentially the same, except one provides situational regen.

It's not a problem that Phoenix is as strong as Bahamut, but it's a shame that these two summons no longer have their unique mechanics.

Before, Bahamut had a semi-turret phase where you had to use ruin IV for optimization, and Phoenix had a mobile phase with a combo.
However, they managed to erase the distinction that used to exist between the two, personally i don't believe they will revert this change.

I think the Summoner in PvP has more flavor in certain aspects, but unfortunately, it wouldn't fit well in PvE, I'm aware of that.
However, I still believe that having the choice is good if the alternative offers a real advantage, even if it doesn't necessarily result in more DPS,
yes people who seek parsing and optimization might not use it, but they represent a minor percentage of the community.

But of course, they will never go for such a design, and obviously, it wouldn't please everyone.
However, to be honest, I'm not sure how they could make the Summoner better than it is currently while keeping its current mechanics.

Adding three more lego after Phoenix won't fundamentally change its rotation since they would have to align with how Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan work but with a different appearance,
that's why I think the rework needs another rework and several changes in lower level.

It's not a problem in and of itself. It's a problem that devs interpret feedback as "just adjust potency". There seems be some implying going on ITT that devs have come up with this idea just out of nowhere and that minmaxers/optimizers have nothing to do with it. I don't really buy that. Maybe "we just want the leveling progression to make sense" is the means but we ultimately know the goal and I very highly doubt it has to do with the average Joe doing MSQ. The average Joe playing a class just wants the solution that makes SMN fun to play-- the minmaxer raider wants Bahamut and Phoenix to be the same. Can we not just be honest here...and to be clear I agree with your quote I'm just asking the general question.