Using BLU to end the war

My ideas are bad anyway.

It sounds like you want a job that has 90% downtime. What problem does this "solve"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

It sounds like you want a job that has 90% downtime. What problem does this "solve"?

---

Giving a healer to the people who have championed the current healer model something even more appealing to their tastes while freeing up the existing healers to move away from that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Giving a healer to the people who have championed the current healer model something even more appealing to their tastes while freeing up the existing healers to move away from that.

---

Still don't understand what you're trying to say. Am I missing some element of sarcasm?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

Still don't understand what you're trying to say. Am I missing some element of sarcasm?

---

There's a large subset of players unhappy with healers and want them to have more inactivity in their kits, more options for DPS spells, and more emphasis on rewarding good healing rather than punishing it. There has been a constant battle against a numbered few fighting that every step of the way because they don't want more engagement, interactivity, or DPS abilities, with the only solution from group B being reiterated over and over that as long as one healer has a low-engagement factor like the current healer model or less, then changing the other three would be fine, but no one in group A wants their favorite healer to be the one who takes the L.

We already have BLU as a resource in this game, why not use it? Some people would appreciate playing a real BLU and not a limited BLU, so curating a selection of its spellbook into a fixed DPS toolkit with reworked effects that are balanced alongside the other caster DPS is already something people have mentioned wanting in different places. Doing the same and created alternative builds for a tank BLU and healer BLU could allow us an opportunity to create the low-engagement healer without actually sacrificing BLU, because DPS BLU will still exist. Then you get a healer who doesn't have to spend time spamming DPS buttons since they have a permanent DoT that covers all their DPS responsibilities, and they can instead focus on just healing. That's my point. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need a solution like that, but I keep trying to find different bargaining chips that everyone can get behind so that we can move on, and perhaps provide united feedback that the current four healers can be adjusted with a singular caveat, rather than constant friction which leaves conflicting feedback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

a healer who doesn't have to spend time spamming DPS buttons since they have a permanent DoT that covers all their DPS responsibilities, and they can instead focus on just healing. That's my point. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need a solution like that, but I keep trying to find different bargaining chips that everyone can get behind so that we can move on, and perhaps provide united feedback that the current four healers can be adjusted with a singular caveat, rather than constant friction which leaves conflicting feedback.

---

The very idea is absurd. Giving someone an action set such that they would sit there and literally not press anything for the vast majority of the fight is not a solution to anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

The very idea is absurd. Giving someone an action set such that they would sit there and literally not press anything for the vast majority of the fight is not a solution to anything.

---

You're right, but it's what stands in the way of the healers being allowed to improve. We can't fix the state of healers out of fear of running out the players who want that experience. It's like the 5 stages of grief. Most here are either in the Anger stage or the Depression stage. I'm in the Bargaining stage. I really don't care what compromise needs to be made in order to allow all 4 healers to get fixed, even if that means promoting something like this that we shouldn't need.

Setting aside the obligatory "Why not just WHM"...who is this for again?

I'm not sure if this is frustrated sarcasm or if you actually think this is appealing to the people you disagree with. If the latter, then I have to inform you (yet again?) you REALLY don't understand the position of people you disagree with. I would think by now you would having talked to me so much, but if this was a serious proposal, clearly you do not.

If the former, then it's not helpful or constructive at all and I'll leave it in the bin where it belongs.

EDIT:

Ty, you aren't in the bargaining stage.

If you were, I've already given you the answer to that: The 4 Healers Model. That's the bargain/compromise solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Setting aside the obligatory "Why not just WHM"...who is this for again?

---

Setting aside the obligatory 'Why does it always have to be WHM?', especially when this is 'WHM but with even less room to 'do it wrong''

Think you missed the forest for the trees, this conforms to the 4 healers model you are so adamant about. One job keeps the current gameplay healers 'enjoy', the others get to have more active/interesting (to some) gameplay and decisionmaking. The fact that the healer that gets to remain 'as is' does not currently exist is not a stipulation previously raised for your garbo model. There was even that argument about reworking CNJ into either upgrading to Druid (a job which retains the current level of simplicity/ease of use, so WHM could grow into something more complex), vs 'CNJ is given traits to make it (as a class) competitive in the endgame content'. This would mean a 5th class/job/spec whatever in the 4 healers model, but that was not the issue back then, it was the method by which the 5th classjobspec was implemented, not it's implementation at all that you took issues with

Also, I note that there's a distinct lack of healing throughput for this proposed job. That is, if something like Styx or Harrowing Hell comes along, you're relying on the permanent regen effect, and a Medica copy. This means having to cast more healing spells to make up for the lack of OGCDs that other healers can 'supplement' their healing with, which means more overall GCDs are spent on healing as this job, compared to others. Thus, it also fulfills (kind of) the request that 'we should be using GCDs on healing more'

I like the 5 stages of grief analogy. I think I'll just stay on 'Anger' and complain on the forums until the role doesn't make me want to commit Grade 4 Skybuilder's Rope (even if that does take the rest of the game's lifespan) thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Ty, you aren't in the bargaining stage.

If you were, I've already given you the answer to that: The 4 Healers Model. That's the bargain/compromise solution.

---

Last I checked, "My way or the highway" isn't a compromise. For the record, your 4 Healers Model™ would more accurately be the 3 Healers Model™ because your proposal is that one healer must be sacrificed. It's the stance I and others have taken that is more accurately about respecting all 4 healers equally.

I was thinking about something similar with integrating Blu skills into all classes, not just healer. So sorry this is only tangentially related but I think it would be cool if for DT if let us crossclass 2 maybe 3 blu spells into our normal kit. This could give healers the option to take a few more offensive skills, get their dots back, magic hammer to regain mp etc.

Auto-Regen and 350 potency/tic for free. Sir, put the paint down, don't sniff it.


So what? It's a job with forced downtime that can't DPS besides the mentioned skills? Or are they having that DoT on top of more Dps? Someone who knows better can probably give you a better number, but 350potency/tic is likely very close to personal optimal healer DPS.

Imagine playing a job in which your entire DPS number is fixed, the best you can do is cast it with a pot during a burst phase and then basically pray to the crit god.

If anything, SE should soft release BLU, have it on the same level as the current patch, and have them always 1 patch behind in terms of what they can sign up for, and if 8 blues want to find a easier way to now solve 12s, then so what? The thing is over, everyone who wanted to clear has now, so let Blue do whatever they want. Just make things immune to the death moves if the expansion is current, that would streamline into dungeons that could be abused.

Instead, we get this class that nobody cares about, except for once every 2 years when they're updated, and you see them for 2 weeks. Blu is fucked, just embrace that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Setting aside the obligatory 'Why does it always have to be WHM?'

---

It doesn't. I've said before SGE would work, just slightly less well.

And no, this doesn't. THIS isn't like any of the healers today. Not ONE healer today has two DoTs it puts on targets then sits on its hands for the next 5 minutes. None. What healer plays like this proposal right now? Oh right: NONE OF THEM. Never mind it's all DoT based, something you and he already know I dislike.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Last I checked, "My way or the highway" isn't a compromise.

---

And yet, that's your consistent position. You get what you want and you are adamant not to actually give someone arguing against your position what they do in any way except on the most narrow of "your terms" which is you not actually giving up anything. And you do it in ways like this that show you clearly don't understand what is being asked for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

For the record, your 4 Healers Model™ would more accurately be the 3 Healers Model™ because your proposal is that one healer must be sacrificed.

---

No:

1) Because there would be 4 of them and they'd play differently with different levels of complexity, which is how the idea is defined.

2) No, it's sacrificing 3 of them and only saving 1.

Your stance isn't about "respecting" the healers. Your stance is about getting what you want and not giving up anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Auto-Regen and 350 potency/tic for free. Sir, put the paint down, don't sniff it.


So what? It's a job with forced downtime that can't DPS besides the mentioned skills? Or are they having that DoT on top of more Dps? Someone who knows better can probably give you a better number, but 350potency/tic is likely very close to personal optimal healer DPS.

Imagine playing a job in which your entire DPS number is fixed, the best you can do is cast it with a pot during a burst phase and then basically pray to the crit god.

If anything, SE should soft release BLU, have it on the same level as the current patch, and have them always 1 patch behind in terms of what they can sign up for, and if 8 blues want to find a easier way to now solve 12s, then so what? The thing is over, everyone who wanted to clear has now, so let Blue do whatever they want. Just make things immune to the death moves if the expansion is current, that would streamline into dungeons that could be abused.

Instead, we get this class that nobody cares about, except for once every 2 years when they're updated, and you see them for 2 weeks. Blu is fucked, just embrace that.

---

/agree

.

EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I can't tell if it's funny or sad how delusional this statement is.

---

/sigh

Yeah, we're done here.

When I tell you how the model is defined and you call A DEFINITION delusion, there's no reason there. Ty, you're beyond reason.

But, that's why your proposals aren't acceptable. You don't care to understand the side opposed to you, so you're not offering something said side actually wants. And instead of understanding what you are clearly intelligent enough to understand if you actually wanted to, you choose to ridicule instead. I'm not going to entertain it anymore here, though.

.

To answer your OP:

No, that is not acceptable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

No:

1) Because there would be 4 of them and they'd play differently with different levels of complexity, which is how the idea is defined.

2) No, it's sacrificing 3 of them and only saving 1.

Your stance isn't about "respecting" the healers. Your stance is about getting what you want and not giving up anything.

---

I can't tell if it's funny or sad how delusional this statement is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

So what? It's a job with forced downtime that can't DPS besides the mentioned skills? Or are they having that DoT on top of more Dps? Someone who knows better can probably give you a better number, but 350potency/tic is likely very close to personal optimal healer DPS.

---

Yeh, that's kinda the point, there's this constant argument of 'healers should be focused on healing, not doing damage', so while it may have a bit of sarcasm included, this 'pitch' would indeed allow a player to 'focus on healing', because their damage is entirely autopilot. I'm seeing posts over in general about how some people are having issues with the latest trial, that it's got too much visual clutter and it's hard to do the heal check in the last phase? But if the damage and HOT are 100% uptime, this would allow the player to focus on casting not-Medica, which as we all know, is the peak gameplay experience for healers /s

The issue of 'what if the casual player doesn't do damage and it causes enrage', fallacious as it is, would not be an issue at all on this one because they press their one damage button at the start of the fight and then the game handles their damage contribution completely. It might need a buff though. SGE is the 'personal damage' healer, with no POM to make damage calculations harder, and it does 330 per 2.5s, and 75 per 3s from it's DOT. By my quick 'just woke up' maths, that's 19320 potency per 2mins (factoring in 3 Phlegmas). To keep up with that number, this idea would need it's damage per DOT tick to be 483. Might also be hard to balance if it works as a regular DOT instead of like Variant Spirit Dart, cos it'd snapshot raidbuffs for the entire fight duration

BLU being what it is now, is an entirely separate issue unfortunately

ren moment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

And no, this doesn't. THIS isn't like any of the healers today. Not ONE healer today has two DoTs it puts on targets then sits on its hands for the next 5 minutes. None. What healer plays like this proposal right now? Oh right: NONE OF THEM. Never mind it's all DoT based, something you and he already know I dislike.

---

Firstly, it's one DOT, with potency based on if you apply it for ST or AOE, not two. Secondly, the healer that 'plays like this proposal right now' would be like, classic WOW healers. It doesn't exist in FFXIV now, sure, but that is because SE learned that this kind of design is bad. Blizzard did too, that's why you see Druids using up to 4 DOTs in M+ runs, and HPaladins donking things with a big hammer. So what, one damage button to spam like Glare is required because 'sit on hands' is not gameplay, but more than that is 'busywork for the sake of it'?

Also, there's a very large difference between DOT based and DOT centric gameplay. You don't like DOTs because of DOT management (ie staggered timers etc), no? Yes, the source of your damage is one single DOT here. No, that does not mean it's a DOT-centric gameplay loop. You'd press it once and then ignore it. No timers, no 'pool resources so you can refresh at right time', just press it and then spam only healing moves like you're fighting a classic WOW boss like Patchwerk or something

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

And yet, that's your consistent position.

---

Might be theirs, but it is not mine. I've compromised on so much, that it's almost impossible to do bad damage on my WHM pitch. You'd have to purposely stop casting damage abilities full stop. The difference between attack A and B is so marginal that Crit Variance would cause your enrage 5 times over before 'WHM didn't press the right buttons in the right order' ever even thought about being an issue. The compromise happened in the design phase, not post-pitch. I figured that by getting the obvious 'we can't have Banish be a massive gain over Glare because what if casuals don't press it at the right time', and other such points of contention, out of the way before they even have a chance to be an issue, then the criticisms can be levied against parts that need criticism. Instead the arguments are attacking a phantom limb, something that was already addressed. Which just makes it look petulant, and makes it seem like 'any change is bad'.

You do know that the 'complexity' of WHM jumped far more thanks to an SE change (making Misery damage neutral) than anything I suggested right?

[/QUOTE]
But, that's why your proposals aren't acceptable. You don't care to understand the side opposed to you, so you're not offering something said side actually wants.[/QUOTE]

Because what 'said side wants' is effectively to be given the rewards of participating in a piece of content, at a fraction of the effort of any other role, by making one of the members of said role have zero depth, with no recourse for those who want to put more effort into said job. SMN is catching an alarming amount of flak over the same issue, because 'why would I want to learn an ultimate on RDM/BLM when I could brain-off and do it as SMN?' And they're right in a sense, the challenge of the Ultimate is in learning the fight, not in the job rotation. So it makes complete sense to use the more forgiving SMN with it's 6 total seconds of cast times per minute to learn something with as much movement and precise timings as an Ult, and then go back to try your 'actual class' once you know the fight mechanics.

Keeping one healer 'as it is now' means seeing the SMN argument again, but with healers. Everyone already asks 'why play AST for prog when WHM exists'. We did not need SMN to be the 'easy job of the role'. We had one already, it was RDM. And everyone was fine with the level of complexity RDM had, even in SB. SMN went far below that level, and set the skill floor bar to the lowest we've ever seen for a DPS class. We shouldn't be looking at the results of SMN and going 'let's do that again'

I understand what 'the other side wants'. I disagree with giving them 'what they want', because it is antithetical to 'competent game design'. There are some people who want to see positionals removed from Melee. I disagree with giving them that, too, because then Melee loses the final thing it has that justifies it dealing so much more damage than the Ranged/Casters

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I can't tell if it's funny or sad how delusional this statement is.

---

I find it pretty hilarious. Man's on about 'saving' one healer from the damnation we'd visit upon the role. I'm sure the general playerbase will thank him for his tireless work in saving them from having an extra damage button on WHM

/s, if it wasn't painfully obvious

Re RDM: They screwed it up by making its cap higher not lower. So it ceased to be that level of gameplay. ShB RDM > EW RDM. So with that seat vacated, they filled it with SMN.

Vanilla WoW was a mess, I think more BC and Wrath, personally. The difference is there was a lot of GCD healing.

Even so, all healers, even Holy Paladin, had a more expansive kit than this joke of a BLU "proposal" that we all know isn't happening since SE isn't going to lock BLU to any roles or static builds or put in current content. You'd have to add a new Job to the game. This is one thing about Ty's proposals going back to the brewhaha over CNJ, they all are designed so he doesn't give up anything. He doesn't have BLU as a healer know (in max level content) and knows he won't, so has written it off and is okay with giving it to the plebs. Same with CNJ back when that discussion happened. As proven by me suggesting adding a new Job, and no matter the Job I suggested for "the simple one" - Druid, Shaman, Chemist, etc - he opposed the idea since he didn't want something he might want to play to not be his level of complexity.

That was why I said it was selfish since it's rooted in a desire to have everything and not give up anything, and his other proposals like this one - in addition to being an absolute joke, even he can't have intended this seriously - is based on not giving up anything other than what he's already written off as either not wanting or never getting.

It's one thing to want old versions of Jobs back, but it's quite another to resist even a new one being added to appeal to the people not like you.

.

And I'm not even going to deign to address your "fraction of the effort" BS other than to say, yet again: You're wrong and insulting. Be better.

.

The simple answer, btw, would be to take WHM, trade the oGCD heals for GCD healing throughput, and leverage Misery for damage neutrality. This BLU "proposal" doesn't do that.

Again, the issue here is a total lack of understanding what people are asking for, and thus a proposal that totally misses the mark. And insulting/disparaging isn't understanding.

In life, sometimes you have to realize that other people think and believe things differently than you. AND, as much as you may think you understand them, you often don't. And when you tell them what you think they think, that's rude. When you ask "Is this what you think?", and they say no, then it's offensive to keep insisting "Yes it is", and leads to animosity and inability to reach consensus since you're basing your bargaining on a lie.

"Oh, you won't take 1 million dollars for your daughter? How about 3 million?"
"What you seem not to be understanding, sir, is that my daughter is not for sale at any price."
"Oh, you drive a hard bargain. So, 5 million, then? You do just want money, right?"

Another day, another bizarre analogy that involves something not-morally-acceptable by most western civilizations (in this case, arranged marriages and/or slavery)

Very strange. I miss the curry/hot wings days

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Giving a healer to the people who have championed the current healer model something even more appealing to their tastes while freeing up the existing healers to move away from that.

---

I for one am already disappointed that BLU (my absolute favorite class in the series) was relegated to minigame-only-at-gunpoint as a class by design, and would see it as an even greater slap in the face to see it then offered up as a 'sacrifice' to people who effectively want to play the role and game as little as possible.

just make all healers Fun™ individually, people who want a 111111111-spam class can go pound sand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OgruMogru

I was thinking about something similar with integrating Blu skills into all classes, not just healer. So sorry this is only tangentially related but I think it would be cool if for DT if let us crossclass 2 maybe 3 blu spells into our normal kit. This could give healers the option to take a few more offensive skills, get their dots back, magic hammer to regain mp etc.

---

this is more-or-less already the case as far as i've seen, in that a lot of the weirder BLU skill mechanics then went on to inform skill design changes for the "real" classes in the following expansion (BLU getting swap-skills like chelonian gate/cold fog, etc, then SMN and such having their summons swap to the big finisher attacks in their rework, etc)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpiralMask

this is more-or-less already the case as far as i've seen, in that a lot of the weirder BLU skill mechanics then went on to inform skill design changes for the "real" classes in the following expansion (BLU getting swap-skills like chelonian gate/cold fog, etc, then SMN and such having their summons swap to the big finisher attacks in their rework, etc)

---

I would love to see that design ethos implemented in a meaningful way. Like the lost actions, maybe utilizing the duty action slots in regular battle content to give a little bit of flavour to the pared-down job design we have currently. Healer's that prioritize healing and support have more options, as would healers that want to be aggressive. Granted it would make Blu Mage mandatory to a degree but hey, that's more engagement right? But anyways, I don't wanna derail too much by sneaking my own pet-want into Ty's thread ^^;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Another day, another bizarre analogy that involves something not-morally-acceptable by most western civilizations (in this case, arranged marriages and/or slavery)

Very strange. I miss the curry/hot wings days

---

It's a simple point and easy to understand - offering someone something but not realizing it isn't what they want or even in the same type of thing that they want.

Do you really not understand that?

I mean, genuinely, because it's the crux of the disagreement. Do you really not understand what people are asking for isn't what you're offering, which is why your proposals are rejected?

Are you really sure the cap is higher on red mage now than in shadowbringers?
Embolden? doesn’t have the decaying stack aspect, displacement isn’t a dps gain over stand-still-and-stab, manafication and the red button both changed too iirc. It’s pretty easy to argue that red mage was made simpler entering endwalker, even with the addition of an additional finisher.
This only shows just to what extent obliterated any and all vestiges of nuance and gameplay in summoner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Do you really not understand that?

---

I understand what you were aiming for. I do not understand why so many of your repertoire of metaphors/analogies involve morally dubious actions

And the same could be said for you. Do you really not understand that it's going to feel absolutely god awful to any WHM main if they are told 'the other healers get cool new things, and you get to have the same gameplay as you currently have'? Getting cool new things is one of the biggest hype-generators of the pre-expansion cycle. Everyone waits with bated breath to see what cool new thing their main gets in the job actions trailer. We analyze the heck out of every frame of the Benchmark to see if there's a sneak peek of a new action in there. Do you not remember how ecstatic people were getting (incorrectly, it turns out) over SGE's showing, because it used SIX different attack animations? So imagine that each healer gets 5 or 6 attack animations shown in the new job action trailer, and WHM shows Glare 4, Dia 2, Assize and Misery, same as we have now. People gave SCH hell for Expedience looking so whelming, how would this be different? I saw the usefulness immediately in Expedience's effects but the playerbase at large laughed it off, how do you expect 'cool new healing spell/mit spell' to persuade the playerbase, when it's competing against the aforementioned 'there's more damage buttons'?

If the announcement was 'SCH gets it's DOTs back, AST gets it's cards back, SGE is now a proper damage>healing healer, WHM remains mostly as it is with the standard potency upgrades', most of the playerbase would immediately pronounce WHM dead on arrival. Whether it is DOA or not is not the point. Community perception matters, DRK suffered a constant 'it's trash' in SB despite being serviceable enough to claim both ultimate worldfirsts. The parroting of opinions carries far more weight than any amount of facts about potency or relative outputs

And by all metrics we have available (aka, an unofficial survey with sub-1000 respondents), I AM offering what people are asking for, to a degree. They just aren't you and people like you, is the issue you're seeing. I could absolutely go and make a design that puts more focus on healing being the challenging thing to optimize on healers. MP management, HOT juggling, resource rationing, etc. I started to dip into it with the SGE idea, even. But as mentioned time and time again, I made the ideas I did, having considered key factors in implementation, such as 'knockon effects to old content', 'effect on less skilled/practicing players, and how intuitive new system would be to learn/relearn', and of course 'devtime cost to implement/test the rebalancing'.

Picture: I am a WHM player, and I have played WHM for every raid. I have cleared some Ultimates. I do not have any other healers levelled. Only WHM. How does your idea let me find some enjoyment and challenge in EX trials, or EX roulette, or Maps, as a WHM? How do we fulfill this, without burdening casual players too much, without making massive sweeping changes that destroy the balance of older content (eg Ultimates), and without causing a massive devtime requirement?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fulminating

Are you really sure the cap is higher on red mage now than in shadowbringers?

---

The cap is entirely down to 'SE made the melee combo even longer', I guess? Acceleration is also a pseudo swiftcast, whereas before it was just 'guarantees proc 3 times' iirc, so now that allows for a bit more mobility compared to previous

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I understand what you were aiming for.

---

Good.

As for why: Because they're simple. They're easy to understand. The people who decry them at least understand them (and just try to get off the topic/not address the shared understanding).

As to your "do you not understand":

1) not "any WHM main": I am a WHM main.

2) No, I understand that. The issue is (a) no matter what we do that's going to be the case. People are going to be upset because their Job didn't end up on the side of the fence they wanted. (b) But if we change all of them then no one against the changes is happy, which is just as bad as changing none of them would be. The answer of changing some is the only one that does address everyone's needs. That is, the contra position is just as true. If we change all the healers, what do you say to all the people now upset that THEIR healer doesn't play the same - because NONE of them do anymore? What do you say to the SCH that doesn't like DoTs? What do you say to the SGE that doesn't like a real DPS gameplay? Your own position fails this test.

3) You also still are spreading disinformation about the whole idea: No one is saying nothing at all changes. People are saying not more DPS buttons. There are still "flashy new changes" possible that aren't new DPS rotational buttons. An upgrade to Holy, some new utility button, etc. Moreover, the playerbase always says something is dead on arrival and are wrong. "What is with SCH? It has no new flashy abilities, just some swirly faerie thing" was the word of the day after the EW media tour. Then EW hits. SCH: Meta the ENTIRE EXPANSION and regarded as one of the most fun healers, with Expedience so useful it had to have its sprint duration nerfed by 50%.

In any case, no part of that works with this BLU idea, which doesn't work for anyone. Ty's BLU idea here wasn't (I don't think, anyway - he's more intelligent than to think it would be) a serious proposal. No healer right now is "Press DoT at the start of encounter, then do nothing for the next 10 minutes", so I'm not sure what part of proposing that as an idea would be serious.

That said, I'm fine with - and have said before - a new Healer Job being added that plays exactly like WHM does now, shares CNJ leveling, etc so that people can pick the one they want. I was told that wasn't allowed, either, if you recall. And I've also said it could be any healer other than WHM as long as it played like WHM does now. So you can't really use that as a rebuttal at this point.

.

RE: RDM:

RDM's cap is higher now, yes.

Enchanted Reprise is really bad now since it proportionally costs more (and prevents getting a potential 3rd combo in longer burst/buff windows), and this has slashed RDM's movement capabilities by a good chunk. Timing the rotation right to try and line up the "2 melee comboes with change" into the burst is also tigher than it was before when it just wasn't possible to do in ShB in the first place. I'd have to pull up old logs to see, but I think RDM's bar is wider (between 25% and 75% as well as 0% and 100%) which generally means that a Job has had its skill ceiling raised. RDM's skill floor is also slightly higher now as a result, too. And there's also some weird drift you have to adjust for to realign things due to timers.

But yeah, the cap for RDM is higher now than in ShB. How much higher is an open question, but that it is higher is pretty much certainty as far as I can tell. The skill floor is also a bit higher due to the mobility changes, though I will say Acceleration's change somewhat counters that, but then you get into a lot of optimization issues related to that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

1) not "any WHM main": I am a WHM main.

2) What do you say to the SCH that doesn't like DoTs? What do you say to the SGE that doesn't like a real DPS gameplay? Your own position fails this test.

3) There are still "flashy new changes" possible that aren't new DPS rotational buttons. An upgrade to Holy, some new utility button, etc. (and the sch/meta bit)

That said, I'm fine with - and have said before - a new Healer Job being added that plays exactly like WHM does now

---

1: Yes, I would have said 'the vast majority of WHM mains', but then chances are I'd have got hit with 'actually the majority is satisfied with the current gameplay' or something, because we have little to zero data beyond these unofficial surveys to see what the playerbase actually thinks about this stuff. The fact remains that, should the events described re: the job action trailer actually play out, WHM would get several weeks of being the punching bag for reddit to laugh at. It could be absolute godmode strong on release, but for that pre-release period it'd get ripped to shreds. And that would set the perception for a while. WHM could have gotten the SHB lily fixes in 4.3 alongside the DRK changes that made DRK 'actually pretty good' back then and it wouldn't have mattered because people had already decided what was good and what was bad. Going further back, I've heard on the grapevine that AST was very viable for 3.2 (Midas) but everyone was so stuck in their ways of using WHM, they carried on using WHM and saying 'AST bad', resulting in SE going 'sod it' and buffing AST to the stratosphere to persuade people to try it. And instead of going 'oh AST good now' they all swapped to saying 'lol WHM trash now' because there's only room for two on the winner's podium

2: It did not seem to be an issue for SE when, despite the people who DO like DOTs settling into maining SCH, then removed all of the DOTs in SHB. Beyond that, I do feel somewhat for those who would have a new playstyle (possibly one they don't enjoy) thrust on them, but I think it's an unfotunate necessity of making the jobs feel distinct from one another again. We cannot just lock DOTs off of SCH because 'what if someone does not like DOTs', because we can apply that thinking to all four healers, and then DOTs as a playstyle are just off the table entirely. Then we do the same with say, MP management. Or CD management. And then we get to where we are now: one single uninspired filler spell, because everything else was ruled out because 'what if player doesn't like that playstyle, but wants to keep maining this job'. Which all goes back to 'if SE hadn't done the SHB prune, we would not be in this mess', because SCH would have always been the DOT focused healer, and nobody would have gotten used to BroilMage

3: We just got one, called Holy 3. It's 10p more than Holy 1. It's the perfect example of 'all flash and no substance'. Utility buttons are only as useful as based on the situations that demand them. Lilybell is cool, only when the fight actually hits hard, and in quick succession (eg Harrowing). Without that, eg if you're fighting EX roulette bosses, it's nothing more than 'plant it and instant-detonate for 1000p', which makes it pretty bland in most content, because most content does not demand it's true potential. Macrocosmos was an interesting one because it got such incredible use because of an oversight. Most other 'utilities' are very forgettable. Looking at DPS, Mantra/Minne/other heal increasers are hardly ever used correctly outside of tough content. The Warden's Paean gets popped by Bards on themselves much more often than it does on allies as a cleanse, such that I'm already casting Esuna by the time they use it on the ally, rendering it's 'gain' of saving the healers a GCD moot. Ranged and Tanks have interrupts and half the time they don't even get used, you can see Dohn Mheg's first pull for that. I'm not sure what 'utility' you are thinking of, that would be somehow super impactful and appreciated, yet also not impactful enough to mean 'this is locked slot, we NEED that utility'. Expedience is cool, but you don't need the additional movespeed for anything. In fact, it could lose the movespeed entirely and I'd still call it 'strong move', the Mit is the reason I think it's strong

4: Yes, this is the part that keeps confusing me. You previously described the model as '3 healers change, one stays as it is for those who enjoy current gameplay', and then when AST was suggested as the non-changing one, that was ruled out because 'its the least played' or something. So, to me, it seems less that 'one stays the same' and more 'either WHM or SGE stays the same because those are the ones I play'. It seemed very goalpost-shifty. If SE wants to add a new healer which branches off of CNJ, and is explicitly stated by SE that 'we are adding this for people who enjoy current WHM, so that we can evolve WHM's kit while allowing those players to keep the playstyle they enjoy', I have no issue with that. The issue is if they add a new healer and DON'T make that explicit statement, because then the perception by default is that the new healer will have potential for growth like SCH or AST would be getting. Which would lead to complaints from people when it turns out that it does not get to grow.

Ty you wanted to use BLU to end the war but you have merely fanned the flames and the war rages more than ever before, it seems. And yes the proposal is not serious, because as Ren rightly states, no healer puts up a DOT and then stands AFK for 10 minutes. Well, some do, but they have their reasons, I'm sure. So, I think you need to change the DOT potency to 480 (to better match SGE's per-2-min output), and then add Water Cannon, with a potency of 10, so that there is a filler GCD to press. It's completely 'wow who cares' on potency so people don't feel as bad for missing one or two because of movement, but it's there so that people have something to press when there's nothing else to do. Or make it Flying Sardine with it's instantcast, so they don't need to worry about movement blocking their GCD usage

Only part of that was serious and it is up to the reader to work out which part

lmao at calling this dumb forum slap fight a war

Putting the uh, other stuff aside, wouldn’t White Wind be pretty cool for a healer ability? ‘Heals party in proportion to current max HP’ could be a kinda fun limitation to work around, since it’d actually get weaker the more damage you took, like a reverse Essential Dignity.

White wind is only remotely interesting when it's a substantial aggro generator and mp drain, which is to say on synced blu content. Otherwise it just turns into pre-excog + ww for cleansing strike type mechanics and an either it kills you or it's meaningless dichotomy elsewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

...

---

1. I think it would have been better to say "WHM mains who want major changes". Since we don't know how many they are nor their percentage of the whole, using any such terms doesn't work. WHM is already the punching bag and has been for 6 years. That ship has sailed and is irrelevant anyway if people playing the Job are having fun with it. So no, that's not a great argument.

2. And this is why you should oppose them doing what you're pitching now - you know how bad it is when SE does things taking Jobs and playstyles (in the SB case, DPS/support healers) out from under people. But setting that aside: WHM in ShB - as discussed in the Healers: Then And Now thread - didn't lose much in the transition and gained more than they lost, ending up in a better state in ShB and (other than 6.0 itself) EW. So making WHM go back to that makes no sense, and even advocates for change aren't suggesting going back to SB WHM other than "readd Aero 3", which is a position I've come to support myself anyway. If you see something that harmed people, your first thought shouldn't be "So this justifies harming the people I don't like who had nothing to do with that decision anyway."

3. THE POINT remains - no one is saying no change ever to anything. It's just the supported changes not being DPS rotational.

4. I've made it clear enough times, you still being unclear is a willful decision. I'm not sure how to explain it to you better since you're so resistant to understanding it. And "room for growth" does not require "DPS rotation expansion". Not giving WHM a damage rotation has plenty of "room for growth".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Not giving WHM a damage rotation has plenty of "room for growth".

---

A cancerous growth...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

A cancerous growth...

---

A growth you dislike.

This sort of comment of yours, btw, is the kind of thing that isn't helpful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

...

---

Btw, so you know, I'm fine with WHM, SCH, and SGE right now. Each of them I find pretty fun and enjoyable to play. The only thing I really really hate about SCH is Dissipation. But I'd be fine with literally any of them keeping the DPS setup they have now. Yes, even the Energy Drain weirdness on SCH.

First time in memory that someone's actually trolling Ren and it's the one time he doesn't call it out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vetch

First time in memory that someone's actually trolling Ren and it's the one time he doesn't call it out.

---

Believe it or not, I give people the benefit of the doubt quite often.

Which should tell you how bad it is when I do call it out.

But this is a derail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

I've made it clear enough times, you still being unclear is a willful decision. I'm not sure how to explain it to you better since you're so resistant to understanding it. And "room for growth" does not require "DPS rotation expansion". Not giving WHM a damage rotation has plenty of "room for growth".

---

Please give two examples, a 96 skill and a 100 skill, that you're thinking of that would make WHM gameplay more fun for both casual and veteran alike, because I'm like 99% sure we'd be back to business as usual faster than with Aquaveil

As for Aero 3, sure let's add Aero 3 again, I don't think anyone has an issue with that. 24s DOT though, and you don't like DOTs. So instead, we could have it be a 24s CD burst damage CD. Oh, now it's functionally identical to what I've previously suggested with Banish, just with a longer CD. Which is the point of contention it seems: My suggestions would be agreeable by the looks of it, if I wasn't so adamant on how many Glare's they remove. if I had left Dia at 30s and Banish was a 24s CD, that'd be completely fine, because that's functionally identical to 'return Aero 3', it's specifically because the timers were lower, meaning pressing not-Glare more often, that was the contentious part. Which is what I find so weird about it all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Believe it or not, I give people the benefit of the doubt quite often.

Which should tell you how bad it is when I do call it out.

But this is a derail.

---

I'm honestly so done with you that I legitimately don't care anymore. I'm so done that this is my new stance:

I want Sage to be reworked into a hyper-offensive fun healer that adequately responds to all the criticism that the healing role receives, and I want the other three healers to rot. I want them stripped down as much as they can possibly be and be left like that for the rest of the game's lifespan and that the only fun healer is Sage. The others will never change from this point. They'll only get more and more healing cooldowns they don't need and that's it.

You get to have White Mage, Scholar, and Astrologian, and we get Sage. That work for you, Ren?

No, I'm not trolling. I'm not being sarcastic. I genuinely want this now because I'm sick and tired of you and arguing with you. To everyone else who recognizes what good and bad job design looks like who will complain about my stance, you have my permission to cry about it.

Peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

No, I'm not trolling. I'm not being sarcastic. I genuinely want this now because I'm sick and tired of you and arguing with you.

---

'Yes, time circles endlessly
The hands of fate trained ahead
(pointing, to the edge)

All things change,
Drawn to the flame,
To rise from the ashes

To begin, we first must see the end (whoa)'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

'Yes, time circles endlessly
The hands of fate trained ahead
(pointing, to the edge)

All things change,
Drawn to the flame,
To rise from the ashes

To begin, we first must see the end (whoa)'

---

I'm sorry, you have a good sense of what makes good game design. But I can't continue or I will lose my mind and run away to a coven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

No, I'm not trolling. I'm not being sarcastic. I genuinely want this now because I'm sick and tired of you and arguing with you. To everyone else who recognizes what good and bad job design looks like who will complain about my stance, you have my permission to cry about it.

Peace.

---

Will miss bouncing ideas off you, but do what you have to do for your mental health.

For the 96 skill I think some kind of party wide pain split style effect. Potentially in % so as to be gear agnostic. Everyone can donate some hp to the clueless tank in dungeons to bring it up to 75% or in more advanced content perhaps it would be helpful if they put tank autos back as more than a gimmick.

For 100 a button that gives everyone a silly hat. No other combat effect.

Also bye ty, hope you feel better

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fulminating

For the 96 skill I think some kind of party wide pain split style effect. Potentially in % so as to be gear agnostic. Everyone can donate some hp to the clueless tank in dungeons to bring it up to 75% or in more advanced content perhaps it would be helpful if they put tank autos back as more than a gimmick.

For 100 a button that gives everyone a silly hat. No other combat effect.

---

Spirit Link Totem? I wouldn't be completely against the idea as a whole, but I feel like it's more of an AST thing (Collective Unconscious for example would probably fit as a name). Or maybe a SCH one. Either way, the flaw in the idea is that Spirit Link allows for an uncapped number of party members to have their HP percentages equalized, in a game where only a certain number of players can be hit by AOE heals. Effectively, it allows the team to turn a strong 'this affects 5 out of 20 players' HOT, into a weaker one that is affecting everyone in the ring. Here, we have non-limited AOE healing (well, there's a limit, but it's far beyond what the party of 8 allows for, like 32 or 36 something) so we don't need to worry as much. The only thing we'd get out of this would be like, effectively turning a hard hitting prey or Tankbuster into a stack marker. Which isn't terrible per se, but it's also not going to see 'wow that's cool' moments in lower content really. I think if anything, the idea of 'turns not-AOE into actually-AOE' is best used as a Eukrasia style toggle for saving hotbar space, perhaps. Reminiscent of using the right button on DPAD to change your cure spells from 'hits one' to 'hits whole party but is weaker'. So instead of having Cure, Cure2, Medica, Medica2, Regen, we could have Cure 2 (cure1 upgrades), Regen, and the 'make it AOE' button, which changes Cure 2 to Cure 3, and Regen into Medica 2 (with different names, probably). Something like that, but on a new healer probably

I'll support the 100 skill though, I want a silly hat. Oh wait, we can't have that either, because SE probably wouldn't remember to make it work with Hrothgar heads

edit: thinking about it a bit more, I'd say it fits way more with AST. Consider, P10S stomps (the ones that apply a bleed), have the link hit the party and both tanks (or just one), and split the bleed from like 18k per tick on each tank across the whole party, to make it like, 2.5k per tick. And then use one of AST's several 60s OGCDs (of which two are currently HOTs) to counteract that bleed

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised they haven't said they're going to do a SCH rework. They announce reworks when a Job either doesn't fit current design (PLD, probably AST), or when it's "perfect" and they don't know where to go with it/what to add to it (SMN, DRG). SCH is really solid overall right now, which makes me wonder what they're planning to do with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Please give two examples, a 96 skill and a 100 skill, that you're thinking of that would make WHM gameplay more fun for both casual and veteran alike, because I'm like 99% sure we'd be back to business as usual faster than with Aquaveil

---

I CAN, the issue is to whom are we appealing? People like you or people like me? I doubt you'd be happy with anything short of a total rework, so there likely aren't a mere 2 abilities that could be added to make you see the gameplay as more fun (without changing anything else, of course).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

As for Aero 3, sure let's add Aero 3 again, I don't think anyone has an issue with that.

---

I should hope not, at this point, considering how many people have asked for it. I don't like DoTs. I deal with them in moderation. Though I suspect it won't make the people asking for it happy, since I suspect they want something more than what it offers and it's a proxy for their general dissatisfaction. Meaning if it was given, they'd probably realize it doesn't actually address their needs. Conversely, there are some people that want Elemental magics back, and as soon as it upgraded to Banish, would suddenly find it unsatisfying. But at least we'd know one way or the other, and some people might be happy with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I'm honestly so done with you that I legitimately don't care anymore. I'm so done that this is my new stance:

---

To be fair, this is how I've felt towards you since that one major incident. I just treat you a lot more cordially and actually respect you. I've noticed over time that you seem to drift between two main moods, one being reasonable and rational where you do a lot of good things like your surveys and make interesting proposals I can give fair analysis of and provide fair analysis to suggestions others make...and then the other end of the spectrum where you basically become an internet troll and heckler. And it seems contingent on nothing that happens here (e.g. not me) which led me to think it was just irl stuff that you go through sometimes, sometimes in the middle of a conversation unbidden and unprovoked. Once I recognized this pattern, it's why I stopped harping on you (and sometimes engaging with you at all) when you were in those moods since I figured it was something personal going on and to leave it be. Regardless:

1) I've never opposed SGE being reworked into a hyper-offensive healer model. I've directly suggested this dozens of times, and it's a core aspect to my model. So why would I be opposed to it?

2) The other part of your "suggestion" is borne of pettiness and won't happen anyway, so I won't bother addressing it.

3) Honestly, no, it doesn't work. Since that isn't what I've suggested. My own suggestion has long been the same; WHM to have its EW form with a few modifications (Pro-shell, Aero 3, and some way to make some GCD healing damage neutral, something like Acceleration on RDM where it's not unlimited but allows use of those other buttons collecting dust), SCH to be restored to its SB version while retaining the improvements made in ShB and EW, and AST to be...something that AST players like. But you already know this, so I'm wasting my breath saying it yet again.

4) Strange how you fight so hard for something, refuse every offer of compromise, no matter how generous to you and reasonable it is, then you just decide one day to blow up the baby and the bathwater all at once.

If you had, at any point prior, actually read and considered seriously - as opposed to writing off automatically - what I've proposed over the last two years or so, it's far more moderate and equitable than what you're saying here is.

.

For what it's worth, I like a lot of your ideas and consider you an intelligent person, which is why I like engaging with you when you're in the constructive of your two modes. And for what it's worth, I want a lot of the things you do. Just not all of them. Hence: Compromise. It's not a dirty word.

Though I do know how you feel. It's why I left the healer forum for a while earlier in the year. I just got tired of dealing with the CONSTANT attacks and harassment and inability of people to engage in good faith discussions.

Anyway, wish you the best, whether you stay here or not.