how did we at a place where diablo4 is more of an mmo that FF14?

how did we at a place where diablo4 is more of an mmo that FF14?:confused:

By constantly listening to people that dont want to play an mmo (or any game for that matter lol)

Diablo stopped being good after the second one for me.

People want everything without doing anything, so why would people actually play it as an MMO ? If there is anything just a tiny bit challenging, people complain they actually have to play the game and have to "bother" with it while they have an IRL job a wife and kids and that they dont have time

A lot of people who play this game do not want a game at all, but a virtual world to live in, because their real one makes them so unhappy. Any challenge or obstacle to that is met with resentment. Not judging, I love this Eorzean VR chat that we have today.

Because SE has to continue to rework FFXIV to be soloable. They can't make more than 2 new solo FFs in a decade. Smol indie company. Plz understand

Uh,

No amount of content I don't think will resolve the MMO feel or lack thereof. A dungeon is still just 4 random people grouped together that in many cases you never meet again. Raids? That's just bosses on a square or circular platform in 99% of cases. The last 'raid' feel was Baldesion Arsenal, and before that? Coils. - It doesn't feel like anything is being 'raided', just a glorified trial. There's very few select situations where the 'MMO' feel has been there - But then I think this has also just simply changed or has been diluted by time

I love the game personally, but the height limitation, in combination with every zone and nigh on every ounce of the game working through instancing ruins what would actually feel like a 'world' to me. This kills the massively multiplayer part for me.

That said, anyone that thinks the amount of 'content' is an indicator probably ought to go back to the drawing board.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Uh,

No amount of content I don't think will resolve the MMO feel, or lack thereof. A dungeon is still just 4 random people grouped together that in many cases you never meet again. Raids? That's just bosses on a square or circular platform in 99% of cases. The last 'raid' feel was Baldesion Arsenal, and before that? Coils. - It doesn't feel like anything is being 'raided', just a glorified trial.

I love the game personally, but the height limitation, in combination with every zone and nigh on every ounce of the game working through instancing ruins what would actually feel like a 'world' to me. This kills the massively multiplayer part for me.

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I have to agree with the raids not feeling like raids. CLL is my best example of something that felt like a raid to me.

Savage and EX almost feels like super smash bros. You make a lobby and queue into the fight which at that point is pretty much a stage with music.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

Diablo stopped being good after the second one for me.

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yes 3 was not so good. 4 so far is fun and a really nice MMO

How did we arrive at a forum with more trolls than the Blizzard ones?

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I have to agree with the raids not feeling like raids. CLL is my best example of something that felt like a raid to me.

Savage and EX almost feels like super smash bros. You make a lobby and queue into the fight which at that point is pretty much a stage with music.

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Seeing how WoW does its raids, I seriously wish they designed the alliance raids to be like CLL and Dalriada where a mass group of people work together to help progress into the instance while accomplishing side objectives, killing powerful mobs and reuniting together to fight bosses. Im not a big fan of the FFXIII dungeon design where we just walk in a long narrow hallway that looks visually pleasing but has no substance whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

How did we arrive at a forum with more trolls than the Blizzard ones?

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Different opinion = trolling

Good input, you are one of the reasons why this game will never improve in any department, any sort of criticism is trolling and should be ignored, while the only thing that matters is this toxic positivity that this game and its community loves so much

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Originally Posted by Shialan

How did we arrive at a forum with more trolls than the Blizzard ones?

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I don't think we do.

I just think our trolls are thirstier for attention than most others.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

How did we arrive at a forum with more trolls than the Blizzard ones?

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Well to be fair it's not Sunday so the trolls aren't out on the Blizz forums.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

yes 3 was not so good. 4 so far is fun and a really nice MMO

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It's absolutely wild how I got both an oldschool MMO feel from D4, AND my the childhood feeling of D2. It's so weird, and I'm really looking forward to what they do with the living world of Diablo moving forward.
"Wait.. I can have both!?"

Being able to level sync like WoW in Diablo is actually such a fun concept to me. Fuck all the people crying they can't backtrack and insta-kill everything. I want wider coop opportunities now, not endgame. It's an MMO - We have friends and randos we wanna game with. Go play something offline if you're trying to solo shit. It also lets me use my full kit while synced.

There's just so much to do in the open world, I only wish they added MAYBE a party finder? Or LFG markers in your world. Where you can look at the map and see someone looking for people to run a dungeon with. So you request party and run over there.

I don't think many people realize that D4 is trying to compete on a different level in the Live Service market.

I also hated Diablo 3. :l

And what good about Diablo 4 as a MMO?

There is a big talent tree system yet most of it will be irrelevant as early on there will be 1-2 broken builds and later on whatever flavour of the seasonal changes create. It's an illusion of choice. And as a whole it's "easy to get in, hard to master" and this game can't even handle equipping your job stone or cure I spam at max level :)

And I doubt people would be happy wih 6.4 where raid is overtuned, only few/one job per role is "valid" because of 50%+ better performance or very specific ability that trivalizes the encounter.

Yes, with all of that complexity and imbalance you can create a broken powerful character and have some fun, but that's very limited in longevity and not really good for a MMO.

Well the first thing they did was essentially rip out everything tied to the game genre tag "RPG" then make decisions from there to appease or attract people that don't play RPG's or MMO's

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Yes, with all of that complexity and imbalance you can create a broken powerful character and have some fun, but that's very limited in longevity and not really good for a MMO.

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And look where that mentality gets us in XIV in 2023. Nowhere. We're dull and spiraling into nothingness with bloated buttons that all feel the same. Congratulations.

WoW has managed to make it work to some degree, and there are MMO-esque ARPGs that are attempting to do it as well. It can be done. Fun should be priority over strict balance.

XIV devs need to realize that you can't balance everything perfectly and you need to focus on fun combat engagement over everything else.

Also you have no idea what the balance is like in D4, or what it'll be like in end-game. It's just an assumption based on D3.
With other ARPGs managing to pull it off, and D4 looking promising, the gap of complex action combat and MMORPG are closing in.

D4's world and systems feel more like an MMORPG than most MMOs to date. There are so many quests, you don't have to do them in any specific order depending on the region. They're all voice acted. There are.. A LOT.

https://youtu.be/DglGWF4LBnc

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Originally Posted by R041

WoW has managed to make it work to some degree.

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Yes, it's freaking fun to have a M+ season where 80% groups want a resto druid only because there was a MDI tournamend and most pro teams used some cheese OP strat with resto (and you can't change a class). Then it's fun to be a Mistweaver Monk to constantly manage your mana while most other healers will have it much easier while also contributing more DPS... or Disc priest which is pretty much build and tuned around mythic raid progression and tends to fail in random and less skilled groups. If you want to heal mythic prog on a high level you either a disc priest, hpala or depending on fight/tier some other healer that brings that special utility needed. Outside of that your class is discarded as inferior just because of how it's designed.

It can have it merits but then our daily reddit or forum questiosn "what to play?" instead of "what you want to play" sprouts would get very specific few jobs just because last raid tier or general design/balance. If you want to raid in WoW classic as DPS then it's 80% you are a warrior, 18% a rogues and 2% mage or lock. Other specs/builds are way way weaker (even though content is braindead and people parse and speedrun it as the only challenge).

FF14 needs new content but it should not be FOTM Blizzard ideas.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

It can have it merits but then our daily reddit or forum questiosn "what to play?" instead of "what you want to play" sprouts would get very specific few jobs just because last raid tier or general design/balance. If you want to raid in WoW classic as DPS then it's 80% you are a warrior, 18% a rogues and 2% mage or lock. Other specs/builds are way way weaker (even though content is braindead and people parse and speedrun it as the only challenge).

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Nobody cares about WoW Classic. Come back to 2023.

You make it seem like XIV doesn't suffer from those same lockout issues for raid, while also boasting that every class is perfectly balanced.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I just think our trolls are thirstier for attention than most others.

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WoW has quantity, but we have quality!

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

WoW has quantity, but we have quality!

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Honestly, some of our trolls have neither, just downright hunger, really.

Frankly, sometimes I bite because it's genuinely entertaining to see them act.

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Originally Posted by R041

Nobody cares about WoW Classic. Come back to 2023.

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More players played and raided Classic TBC than Shadowlands, that's how well they made the game in 2022, and Dragonflight even though much better sold very low and people just quit... and now there is another vanilla+ private server boom.

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Originally Posted by R041

You make it seem like XIV doesn't suffer from those same lockout issues for raid, while also boasting that every class is perfectly balanced

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At least they care more. Did a Paladin rework just because it could not fit every fight. Not saying the end results are better but at least they are constantly trying. It will never be done, but still, constant effort constantly changes the meta and prevents one meta from imprinting in player perception.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

WoW has quantity, but we have quality!

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Our Trolls just seem way to desperate for attention.....but I cant lie they always get results.
The Dumbest, easiest Bait thread, no matter what gets attention.

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Originally Posted by magitekLuna

how did we at a place where diablo4 is more of an mmo that FF14?:confused:

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Because you claim it to even be one in the 1st place.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

More players played and raided Classic TBC than Shadowlands, that's how well they made the game in 2022, and Dragonflight even though much better sold very low and people just quit... and now there is another vanilla+ private server boom.

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Okay now you're just making shit up. Classic has about 15-20% of the playerbase. We don't sit here and compare raid clears to evaluate average player activity.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

At least they care more. Did a Palading rework just because it could not fit every job fight. Not saying the end results are better but at least they are constantly trying. It will never be done, but still constant effort constantly changes the meta and prevents one meta from imprinting in player perception.

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I like how you bring that up in confidence and WoW Retail just got a Paladin rework today. lool

https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com...notes-now-live

We could only dream of class adjustments like these in XIV. We barely get crumbs.

I like and play both games for different reasons, so I'm not gonna sit here and lie about this shit. The truth is, XIV jobs are getting boring and no amount of "For balance" will ever be reason enough to take away fun. Just as they did with Dungeons. They're balanced, sure.. But they're boring as all shit now.

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Originally Posted by R041

And look where that mentality gets us in XIV in 2023. Nowhere. We're dull and spiraling into nothingness with bloated buttons that all feel the same. Congratulations.

WoW has managed to make it work to some degree, and there are MMO-esque ARPGs that are attempting to do it as well. It can be done. Fun should be priority over strict balance.

XIV devs need to realize that you can't balance everything perfectly and you need to focus on fun combat engagement over everything else.

Also you have no idea what the balance is like in D4, or what it'll be like in end-game. It's just an assumption based on D3.
With other ARPGs managing to pull it off, and D4 looking promising, the gap of complex action combat and MMORPG are closing in.

D4's world and systems feel more like an MMORPG than most MMOs to date. There are so many quests, you don't have to do them in any specific order depending on the region. They're all voice acted. There are.. A LOT.

https://youtu.be/DglGWF4LBnc

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I honestly suggest you watch this video with a guy who actually knows what he's talking about. Diablo 4 looks a'ight but its nowhere near as the "shinin" example of an MMO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l91GoAjkM

Also, why are we even bringing up Diablo? its not even an actual MMO lol

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Originally Posted by Shialan

How did we arrive at a forum with more trolls than the Blizzard ones?

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Because people are foolish enough to respond to them constantly instead of just putting them on ignore. Trolls would stop if people stopped feeding them, but people can't help but take the low hanging fruit...like that Arthars thread, was obvious it was a troll thread the second I read the first post.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I honestly suggest you watch this video with a guy who actually knows what he's talking about. Diablo 4 looks a'ight but its nowhere near as the "shinin" example of an MMO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l91GoAjkM

Also, why are we even bringing up Diablo? its not even an actual MMO lol

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Because the thread? Diablo wasn't traditionally an MMO. But D4 definitely feels like one.

I played the Beta, it felt like a living MMORPG and hit all the marks even from just Lv1-25. I maxed all classes and did all quests, cleared the whole map. It was almost a surreal experience, because it was like playing a living MMO CRPG with ARPG combat. Does that make sense? It's hard to explain. I say CRPG, because it has that same vibe with how all of the quests are setup and how they all kinda interact and work with the map, unlock new things, dungeons, parts of the environment. But ARPG because of the action combat specifically. It's not quite Divinity 2, but it was definitely inching toward it.

Also yeah, KRIPP has some legit criticisms - But these are things I believe can be worked out. But if they aren't? I'm still enjoying my time being able to run around in groups in a living world and doing world events and bosses.

Edit: Also, I'm mostly excited for the overall combination of systems D4 is presenting us. Balancing issues, new items, UI, whatever - That can be adjusted. But the underlying gameplay loop is exciting.
(As long as they don't cash shop the shit out of it)

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People want everything without doing anything

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I am yet to meet a single person who has ever said this, and I defy you to show me otherwise.

Dont exaggerate.

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Originally Posted by R041

Because the thread? Diablo wasn't traditionally an MMO. But D4 definitely feels like one.

I played the Beta, it felt like a living MMORPG and hit all the marks even from just Lv1-25. I maxed all classes and did all quests, cleared the whole map. It was almost a surreal experience, because it was like playing a living MMO CRPG with ARPG combat. Does that make sense? It's hard to explain. I say CRPG, because it has that same vibe with how all of the quests are setup and how they all kinda interact and work with the map, unlock new things, dungeons, parts of the environment. But ARPG because of the action combat specifically. It's not quite Divinity 2, but it was definitely inching toward it.

Also yeah, KRIPP has some legit criticisms - But these are things I believe can be worked out. But if they aren't? I'm still enjoying my time being able to run around in groups in a living world and doing world events and bosses.

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I hope you realize it feels like a living world in that game atm because its the beta, where people are wanting to test out the game since its new. What about say the next couple of years? I wonder if you'll be singing the same tune once the honeymoon phase is over. I cant trust that kind of judgement in games. First impressions are well and good but..

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I hope you realize it feels like a living world in that game atm because its the beta, where people are wanting to test out the game since its new. What about say the next couple of years? I wonder if you'll be singing the same tune once the honeymoon phase is over. I cant trust that kind of judgement in games. First impressions are well and good but..

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It's totally possible. But knowing I can sync all content in coop and run around with ease is good enough for me. Unfortunately XIV makes that difficult and doesn't provide enough open world coop opportunities.

Also considering how the zones are designed in Diablo 4, compared to XIV - They're dynamic and expand/retract depending on activity. So you're likely to see players through the world, unlike XIV where it's separated by individual servers. Also it's encouraged to play through different zones for their unlocks, quests, renown. So there's almost always a reason to go back unless you capped absolutely everything.

It would be AMAZING if XIV could just be 1 NA server, and each zone was only split up whenever it was at max capacity. Unfortunately we still live with an archaic MMO server infrastructure where we have to manually travel to different servers and DCs, so we never know what's actually poppin'.

I praised XIV when it released too. lol

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Originally Posted by R041

It's totally possible. But knowing I can sync all content in coop and run around with ease is good enough for me. Unfortunately XIV makes that difficult and doesn't provide enough open world coop opportunities.

Also considering how the zones are designed in Diablo 4, compared to XIV - They're dynamic and expand/retract depending on activity. So you're likely to see players through the world, unlike XIV where it's separated by individual servers. Also it's encouraged to play through different zones for their unlocks, quests, renown. So there's almost always a reason to go back unless you capped absolutely everything.

It would be AMAZING if XIV could just be 1 NA server, and each zone was only split up whenever it was at max capacity. Unfortunately we still live with an archaic MMO server infrastructure where we have to manually travel to different servers and DCs, so we never know what's actually poppin'.

I praised XIV when it released too. lol

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and even back then, it was only praised at the time in compared to its older 1.0 self. It didnt hold a candle to other MMO's if we're going to be quite honest here. I still think FFXIV isnt the best mmo out there but I think thats absolutely fine. No single MMO will ever be that "perfect MMO" and when people try to make one game be their main game well...we get people who lose perspective and start nitpicking about everything. Im glad Diablo IV is giving you what you're looking for, but its honestly not the game itself, its just you playing another game besides FFXIV thats giving you that satisfaction. Ive recently started getting back playing other games (currently trying out WoW Dragonflight) and this actually helped me enjoy FFXIV even more for what it is. It's giving me some wants for what I would like to see in FFXIV but at the same time, Im not gonna act like a pessimistic butthole about the game either.

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Originally Posted by R041

And look where that mentality gets us in XIV in 2023. Nowhere. We're dull and spiraling into nothingness with bloated buttons that all feel the same. Congratulations.

WoW has managed to make it work to some degree, and there are MMO-esque ARPGs that are attempting to do it as well. It can be done. Fun should be priority over strict balance.

XIV devs need to realize that you can't balance everything perfectly and you need to focus on fun combat engagement over everything else.

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And yet, FFXIV currently has the highest playerbase it's ever had. Perhaps because the devs actually do really know what they're doing and recognize the importance of adapting to the times. People in-game are plentiful and having an absolute blast. Casual gamers generally find being able to pick up a game and feel like they're making progress and contributing sufficiently while being able to make their own choices and play their way to be fun and inviting (aka the idea of balancing/generally homogenizing classes while giving each a bit of distinct flavor is the perfect move in today's gaming society). Balance leads to fun for the casual gamer, rather than a system where the community effectively locks them out of large chunks of content just for not playing the current meta build.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

and even back then, it was only praised at the time in compared to its older 1.0 self. It didnt hold a candle to other MMO's if we're going to be quite honest here. I still think FFXIV isnt the best mmo out there but I think thats absolutely fine. No single MMO will ever be that "perfect MMO" and when people try to make one game be their main game well...we get people who lose perspective and start nitpicking about everything. Im glad Diablo IV is giving you what you're looking for, but its honestly not the game itself, its just you playing another game besides FFXIV thats giving you that satisfaction. Ive recently started getting back playing other games (currently trying out WoW Dragonflight) and this actually helped me enjoy FFXIV even more for what it is. It's giving me some wants for what I would like to see in FFXIV but at the same time, Im not gonna act like a pessimistic butthole about the game because it would feel irrational in a sense if Im just letting my "honeymoon" linger.

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You may be 100% right and it might not work out - But I'm pretty hype, and I like the systems so far. It already has a leg up in how the server, zones, and level sync is structured.

But yeah, I could totally be back here for 7.0, and completely quit Diablo 4. I just can't ignore the MMO evolution is all.

Let's hope maybe down the line XIV can collapse all NA servers and have seamless dynamic scaling zones for everything instead.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

And yet, FFXIV currently has the highest playerbase it's ever had. Perhaps because the devs actually do really know what they're doing and recognize the importance of adapting to the times. People in-game are plentiful and having an absolute blast. Casual gamers generally find being able to pick up a game and feel like they're making progress and contributing sufficiently while being able to make their own choices and play their way to be fun and inviting (aka the idea of balancing/generally homogenizing classes while giving each a bit of distinct flavor is the perfect move in today's gaming society). Balance leads to fun for the casual gamer, rather than a system where the community effectively locks them out of large chunks of content just for not playing the current meta build.

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Okay, and WoW has a more complex class design with personalization with each build, and it still has more players than XIV.

Correlation does not imply causation. Just because class design is vanilla as fuck, doesn't mean it's a better game. XIV popularity is a complicated subject, it doesn't mean it does everything correctly. Nor does it mean WoW does everything correctly.

So...?

I like the fact FFXIV is more of a solo friendly game then alot of MMOs and other games. Its one of the reasons why I play!

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Originally Posted by Striker44

And yet, FFXIV currently has the highest playerbase it's ever had. Perhaps because the devs actually do really know what they're doing and recognize the importance of adapting to the times. People in-game are plentiful and having an absolute blast. Casual gamers generally find being able to pick up a game and feel like they're making progress and contributing sufficiently while being able to make their own choices and play their way to be fun and inviting (aka the idea of balancing/generally homogenizing classes while giving each a bit of distinct flavor is the perfect move in today's gaming society). Balance leads to fun for the casual gamer, rather than a system where the community effectively locks them out of large chunks of content just for not playing the current meta build.

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Thanks to WoW failing in the past for that, and even then, a lot of those people went back to WoW or stopped MMO's all together, if not most of them.

"adapting to the times" you mean giving absolutely no content to those who play this game as their main game ? They sure are, they are adapting to those who can log one time a week or less for an hour.

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People in-game are plentiful and having an absolute blast.

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All afking in Limsa ? They sure are having an absolute blast alright

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aka the idea of balancing/generally homogenizing classes while giving each a bit of distinct flavor is the perfect move in today's gaming society)

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Is that why everything is boring then ? Because it's all homogenized, good going I guess ?

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Balance leads to fun for the casual gamer, rather than a system where the community effectively locks them out of large chunks of content just for not playing the current meta build.

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And makes the game boring for everyone else. Good job

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

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Also, you know I've been crying about wanting these things forever - You've read my bullshit. Then Diablo goes and makes a godamn MMO with the things I've been asking for, AND makes it feel like D2.

So I can't contain my hype. You understand. lol

Is Dragonflight worth trying out if I've never played WoW? I tried out Guild Wars 2 and thought it was pretty bad, but I didn't get beyond level 15.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Balance leads to fun for the casual gamer, rather than a system where the community effectively locks them out of large chunks of content just for not playing the current meta build.

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Why is it always the people who don't do Savage or any content where balance matters spouting this dumb sh*t? lmao

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Is Dragonflight worth trying out if I've never played WoW? I tried out Guild Wars 2 and thought it was pretty bad, but I didn't get beyond level 15.

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Yeah, it's built to basically be a starting point for new WoW players. But I hope you like dragons. 'Cause it's got a lot of godamn dragons everywhere. Still extremely fun. But so many dragons..