PLEASE update Trusts

Going through alt jobs, I decided to level up DPS classes along with my Trusts in order to get around wait times, and it is agonizing. I don't think I've cleared a single SHB dungeon in under 28 minutes, which is an insanely long amount of time compared to playing with other people.

The reason for this is because the Trust AI only attacks one enemy at a time. Even if I force Thancred to pull multiple groups, it doesn't matter. My DPS partner will still just focus fire one by one. Trust DPS doesn't do a whole lot of damage to begin with, and between their low damage and their one-at-a-time approach, it just slogs on and on and on.

Please just make them AOE trash pulls. Please. For the love of god. I'm suffering.

This is on purpose to make them weaker than playing with actual players.

It's really very slow with the NPCs. But I don't think that they are going to change this. Because for being slow, we have the advantage to get all the loot.

If Trust wouldn't have the disadvantage of beeing slow..., why people should still que with other people? If Trust would be fast, the NPCs do the mechanics correct most of the time and you get all the loot..., then the motivation to que with other people would be very low.

To make Trust slow is maybe the only way to solve this.
But it would be nice, if there would be an opportunity to have stronger Trust buddies when you 1st run a dungeon during the MSQ. : )

That's entirely on purpose, Trusts are designed to be worse than even the average player to encourage playing with other people.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

This is on purpose to make them weaker than playing with actual players.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's entirely on purpose, Trusts are designed to be worse than even the average player to encourage playing with other people.

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Except, the newly added Heavensward Duty Support AIs use AOE attacks. I literally just went into Sohm Al to doublecheck, and Estinien is doing the thing as I'm typing this.

There is absolutely no reason for the SHB Trusts to not work the same way. It's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Except, the newly added Heavensward Duty Support AIs use AOE attacks. I literally just went into Sohm Al to doublecheck, and Estinien is doing the thing as I'm typing this.

There is absolutely no reason for the SHB Trusts to not work the same way. It's ridiculous.

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You are missing the point. They are intentionally slow. By which manner they achieve being slow is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

You are missing the point. They are intentionally slow. By which manner they achieve being slow is irrelevant.

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So why is it okay for the Duty Support to function one way and the Trusts to function another? "Well that's just how it is" isn't a good reason for not changing/fixing something.

I can't imagine how jarring it would be as a new player using Duty Support for ARR and HW and then getting to Shadowbringers and suddenly it sucks to play with the AI when it never did before.

It… really doesn’t matter whether they’re AoEing or not. Trust NPCs damage output behaves like a rubberband, adjusting themselves according to how well you’re performing. They hit harder if you’re playing poorly or afk, but lowers their damage if you’re playing better. This is pretty noticeable in trash pulls where your dps are very likely skyrocketing with that many targets multiplying your total damage output.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

So why is it okay for the Duty Support to function one way and the Trusts to function another? "Well that's just how it is" isn't a good reason for not changing/fixing something.

I can't imagine how jarring it would be as a new player using Duty Support for ARR and HW and then getting to Shadowbringers and suddenly it sucks to play with the AI when it never did before.

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ARR and HW duty supports are also slower than doing those dungeons with actual players. A player going through all of it with duty support will have dungeons that take longer all the way through. It's all listed under duty support now btw. Group up with actual players if you want to go fast.

You can run with Squadron till HW content. Their HP also bigger than Duty Support's HP that you don't have to heal them at all. :)

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

It… really doesn’t matter whether they’re AoEing or not. Trust NPCs damage output behaves like a rubberband, adjusting themselves according to how well you’re performing. They hit harder if you’re playing poorly or afk, but lowers their damage if you’re playing better. This is pretty noticeable in trash pulls where your dps are very likely skyrocketing with that many targets multiplying your total damage output.

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That's just not true. Maybe that's true in the new Duty Supports, but it's not true with SHB Trusts.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

ARR and HW duty supports are also slower than doing those dungeons with actual players. A player going through all of it with duty support will have dungeons that take longer all the way through. It's all listed under duty support now btw. Group up with actual players if you want to go fast.

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I'm not asking for it to be as fast as normal players. I'm not asking for a damage boost. I'm literally only asking for Trust AIs to function like Duty Support.

I have been playing this game for years. I'm not averse to playing with other people lmao

I know that a group of players can breeze through a dungeon in about 13-15 minutes. My average time with the new Duty Supports is 19-23 minutes. SHB Trusts are 28-33 minutes.

I'm asking for the SHB Trusts to be on the same level as the new Duty Supports. That's it. That's all I'm asking for.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

That's just not true. Maybe that's true in the new Duty Supports, but it's not true with SHB Trusts.



I'm not asking for it to be as fast as normal players. I'm not asking for a damage boost. I'm literally only asking for Trust AIs to function like Duty Support.

I have been playing this game for years. I'm not averse to playing with other people lmao

I know that a group of players can breeze through a dungeon in about 13-15 minutes. My average time with the new Duty Supports is 19-23 minutes. SHB Trusts are 28-33 minutes.

I'm asking for the SHB Trusts to be on the same level as the new Duty Supports. That's it. That's all I'm asking for.

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ARR and HW dungeons are by themselves shorter than SHB dungeons therefore shb duty support also takes longer than ARR and HW duty support. You are asking for SE to do slight of hand. Them doing AoE or not is completely unrelated to how fast the run is. Like Rein said, their damage adjusts in an attempt to equalize run length.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

ARR and HW duty supports are also slower than doing those dungeons with actual players. A player going through all of it with duty support will have dungeons that take longer all the way through. It's all listed under duty support now btw. Group up with actual players if you want to go fast.

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Eh depends, the arcanist supports are melting mobs, just wall2wall, pray the healer ai isnt dumb and watch packs melt

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Originally Posted by Saraide

ARR and HW dungeons are by themselves shorter than SHB dungeons therefore shb duty support also takes longer than ARR and HW duty support. You are asking for SE to do slight of hand. Them doing AoE or not is completely unrelated to how fast the run is. Like Rein said, their damage adjusts in an attempt to equalize run length.

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That's not true. The later dungeons have three bosses in them, standard. Some ARR/HW dungeons had four. SHB/EW dungeons almost always have 2-3 groups per W2W pull. ARR/HW dungeons could have a hell of a lot more than that -- ARR especially.

ARR/HW dungeons might seem shorter to you because a group of players leveled down can melt things at ridiculous speeds these days, but in terms of the actual content that you need to get through, ARR dungeons in particular were usually way longer than the expansions. So, there's really no excuse for SHB dungeons to take up to ten minutes longer than them if all of the AI characters are meant to be playing at average ilvl.

I don't know why you're trying so hard to fight me on this. If there really was no difference between the performance of the Duty Support and the Trusts, then why would they have bothered to change the AI at all? Wouldn't the new Duty Supports just have lifted all of the framework from Trusts? Wouldn't that have been easier, faster, and more cost effective?

But they didn't do that. They improved the AI so that the dungeons are handled more efficiently. I don't know why it's so unreasonable to you that I would ask for the systems to be standardized across all expansions. To me, it doesn't make sense that the later game content is actually worse than the early game content.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Except, the newly added Heavensward Duty Support AIs use AOE attacks. I literally just went into Sohm Al to doublecheck, and Estinien is doing the thing as I'm typing this.

There is absolutely no reason for the SHB Trusts to not work the same way. It's ridiculous.

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It's not "actual" AOE though. Every single duty finder/trust AI that uses AOE attacks are just the same potency as their single target moves, but the potency is divided between the targets equally, people have tested it over the years. (with some very minor exceptions, like each trust's "big" skill)
So if they did 600 potency in one attack, they'd only be doing 200 potency if they hit 3 enemies. So an NPC hitting only 1 enemy vs hitting 3 is doing the same damage, just different distribution.

That's also without taking in factors like their hidden damage scaling based on how fast / slow you're taking, where their damage gets nerfed if you're going too fast to make sure you have a general similar clear time as long as you're actually attacking.

The reason it may even remotely feel easier is that the dungeons themselves are way easier due to potency inflation, substat inflation and mechanic/HP nerfs over the years making the player character themselves way stronger in older content contrasted to even content 1 expansion ago. To put it in perspective using Sohm Al for example, the highest potency skill in HW was 500, and most skills hung around 300-350 range. Nowdays half the jobs have 600+ potency skills at that same level, or 400+ potency 1-2-3 combos (RPR) or 1000 potency nukes (DNC) at that same level. Things like Direct hit also didn't exist back then either, leading to even more average damage than back then the dungeon's weren't designed around.

Plus, as others have pointed out, regardless of how fast the trusts/duty support can complete the dungeon, actual players can complete it way faster, which is intentional.

Trusts do aoe but only if the mob they are fighting is taking too long. Doing big pulls can be risky as both Alphinaud and Urianger can both not be on the ball. Then each trust has their own personalities and quirks. Like Alphinaud can become focused on healing Alisaie more than others. Though Alisaie does tend to stand in the bad from time to time. Running with trusts isn't supposed to be as fast or faster than with actual people. Trusts also skill their dps based on yours. Course I did have an Dohn Mehg run where Urianger was fairly impatient as he felt the need to spam gravity over and over before whipping out death.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

This is on purpose to make them weaker than playing with actual players.

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That moment when real players take longer than the trusts would. . .

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

That's not true. The later dungeons have three bosses in them, standard. Some ARR/HW dungeons had four. SHB/EW dungeons almost always have 2-3 groups per W2W pull. ARR/HW dungeons could have a hell of a lot more than that -- ARR especially.

ARR/HW dungeons might seem shorter to you because a group of players leveled down can melt things at ridiculous speeds these days, but in terms of the actual content that you need to get through, ARR dungeons in particular were usually way longer than the expansions. So, there's really no excuse for SHB dungeons to take up to ten minutes longer than them if all of the AI characters are meant to be playing at average ilvl.

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Shorter in terms of time spent, not distance walked or bosses fought. Time is the determining factor of how long an encounter is.

You've fallen for SE's slight of hand. NPCs doing AoEs or not is completely irrelevant because their total dps scales up or down depending on how much time SE wants a dungeon with duty support to take.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That moment when real players take longer than the trusts would. . .

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True despair.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

This is on purpose to make them weaker than playing with actual players.

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By this much though?

They're just way too undertuned.

Squads clear faster than them.

This is by design, if AI was fast than who the f*k will wait on queue and actually play with real players in a MMORPG... honestly the implementation of Trust is already a big NO on my eyes for a MMO

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

By this much though?

They're just way too undertuned.

Squads clear faster than them.

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Squadrons is an ancient mechanic and has very little relevance to their current design philosophy. You also need to level up squadrons by yourself where as duty support is just there for you.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

That's just not true. Maybe that's true in the new Duty Supports, but it's not true with SHB Trusts.

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I am in fact was describing the Shadowbringer/Endwalker's Trust NPCs. Even if they do AoE a wall pull; if you are also AoE'ing together with them, their AoEs will be doing pitiful damage to ensure you will always finish in that 28m-33m duration you've noted yourself.

I don't know enough about Duty Supports on ARR/HW dungeons though, as I could only count on one hand the amount of time I actually used them. I would assume they're using similar formulae.

Trusts are there for when you really want to experience the dungeon and its story without any disturbances from other players. Theyre not designed to be an efficient way to run this content otherwise it would severely undervalue the need for players if the AI can perform much better than them

The reason you mentioned is incorrect.
Trusts take so long because their DPS will adapt to how much dps you're NOT doing, to keep the clear time more or less consistent. They're rubber-banded.

You can compare their kill time and efficiency with Squadrons and notice Squadrons are quite more efficient, specially if you unlock offensive tactics.

So why don't they add the tactic feature to Trusts? Because, like all their watered down efforts into making XIV feel like a 'single player FF', they never fully commit to it in order to not let it get in the way of XIV's "MMOness". In this case, not give the players the opportunity to pass on playing with players in the dungeons due to the difference in clear time.

FFXIV is totally trying to offer a single player FF experience... until it's not, which is every time.

Leveling a SCH alt through ARR, I have literally watched their damage numbers shrink if I am an active participant, but after a couple moments of afking their dps will flare back up. And this is in addition to their aoes. Like if I am active participant, ohno, they can only do 7 or 9 damage. But if I afk oh now they are doing like 79 damage.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

By this much though?

They're just way too undertuned.

Squads clear faster than them.

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Had a Holmester Switch run that took 40 minutes with actual people.
Trust cleared in 25 minutes tops.

There are people that play that badly.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I am in fact was describing the Shadowbringer/Endwalker's Trust NPCs. Even if they do AoE a wall pull; if you are also AoE'ing together with them, their AoEs will be doing pitiful damage to ensure you will always finish in that 28m-33m duration you've noted yourself.

I don't know enough about Duty Supports on ARR/HW dungeons though, as I could only count on one hand the amount of time I actually used them. I would assume they're using similar formulae.

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You can't be talking about SHB Trusts, or your memory is off, because SHB Trusts literally do not perform AOE attacks during trash pulls. Stop trying to tell me they do.

I am actively trying to get an alt to 90 on all jobs. I have spent over a dozen hours in Trusts just in the past week alone because I didn't want to deal with DPS queues. SHB Trust NPCs do not perform AOE attacks. Ever. That's the point of the thread.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Trusts are there for when you really want to experience the dungeon and its story without any disturbances from other players. Theyre not designed to be an efficient way to run this content otherwise it would severely undervalue the need for players if the AI can perform much better than them

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Absolutely no one is asking for Trusts to perform as well as players, let alone better than them. I don't know how people are getting that from my original post. I just want them to do AOE attacks so that the original SHB Trusts are functioning at the same level as the newly added ARR/HW Duty Supports. That's it. I'm not asking for anything else.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Leveling a SCH alt through ARR, I have literally watched their damage numbers shrink if I am an active participant, but after a couple moments of afking their dps will flare back up. And this is in addition to their aoes. Like if I am active participant, ohno, they can only do 7 or 9 damage. But if I afk oh now they are doing like 79 damage.

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The amount of people in this thread who don't understand that Duty Support and Trusts are not the same thing is absolutely staggering to me.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

You can't be talking about SHB Trusts, or your memory is off, because SHB Trusts literally do not perform AOE attacks during trash pulls. Stop trying to tell me they do.

I am actively trying to get an alt to 90 on all jobs. I have spent over a dozen hours in Trusts just in the past week alone because I didn't want to deal with DPS queues. SHB Trust NPCs do not perform AOE attacks. Ever. That's the point of the thread.



Absolutely no one is asking for Trusts to perform as well as players, let alone better than them. I don't know how people are getting that from my original post. I just want them to do AOE attacks so that the original SHB Trusts are functioning at the same level as the newly added ARR/HW Duty Supports. That's it. I'm not asking for anything else.



The amount of people in this thread who don't understand that Duty Support and Trusts are not the same thing is absolutely staggering to me.

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You are still focusing about aoe vs no aoe. That is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

You are still focusing about aoe vs no aoe. That is irrelevant.

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Dude you think that the number of encounters/bosses has no bearing on how long a dungeon is. I can't even with you. Done with your "no you're wrong because I said so" argument.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

You can't be talking about SHB Trusts, or your memory is off, because SHB Trusts literally do not perform AOE attacks during trash pulls. Stop trying to tell me they do.

I am actively trying to get an alt to 90 on all jobs. I have spent over a dozen hours in Trusts just in the past week alone because I didn't want to deal with DPS queues. SHB Trust NPCs do not perform AOE attacks. Ever. That's the point of the thread.



Absolutely no one is asking for Trusts to perform as well as players, let alone better than them. I don't know how people are getting that from my original post. I just want them to do AOE attacks so that the original SHB Trusts are functioning at the same level as the newly added ARR/HW Duty Supports. That's it. I'm not asking for anything else.



The amount of people in this thread who don't understand that Duty Support and Trusts are not the same thing is absolutely staggering to me.

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If you pull enough they do.

I've seen Holy, Bene, Tetra, Superbolide, gravity, and other varying spells with the trusts. If I'm leveling healers I just pull everything and get thancred to grab them.

You know that super spicy pull near the end of Mt Gulg? I've done that multipack pull with a trust.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Dude you think that the number of encounters/bosses has no bearing on how long a dungeon is. I can't even with you. Done with your "no you're wrong because I said so" argument.

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If you have 3 bosses with 15k hp each or one boss with 100k. What is going to take longer?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

If you have 3 bosses with 15k hp each or one boss with 100k. What is going to take longer?

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Well, when you're hitting the 15k hp boss for only 15 dmg each time and the 100k boss with 100 dmg each time, they'll probably take around the same amount of time.

So if there's four 15k hp bosses, it'll take longer for you to get through all four than the three 100k bosses. Unless you really want to sit there and try to say that you're doing different percentages of damage between ARR and SHB dungeons/bosses, in which case lmao and show me the numbers.

And you never answered the question as to why on God's green earth would Square Enix spend extra time, money, and resources on changing the Duty Support AI for ARR & HW if they're functionally no different from SHB Trusts. They put that money and time into updating the AI. That's what they did. And the only thing I'm asking for in this thread is to take that updated AI and put it into Trusts. This whole "Square Enix is trying to fool you" thing you've been trying to push is absurd and makes no sense from a logistical or business standpoint.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Well, when you're hitting the 15k hp boss for only 15 dmg each time and the 100k boss with 100 dmg each time, they'll probably take around the same amount of time.

So if there's four 15k hp bosses, it'll take longer for you to get through all four than the three 100k bosses. Unless you really want to sit there and try to say that you're doing different percentages of damage between ARR and SHB dungeons/bosses, in which case lmao and show me the numbers.

And you never answered the question as to why on God's green earth would Square Enix spend extra time, money, and resources on changing the Duty Support AI for ARR & HW if they're functionally no different from SHB Trusts. They put that money and time into updating the AI. That's what they did. And the only thing I'm asking for in this thread is to take that updated AI and put it into Trusts. This whole "Square Enix is trying to fool you" thing you've been trying to push is absurd and makes no sense from a logistical or business standpoint.

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I see you are just wildly making up extra stuff instead of answering the question, doesnt matter. Every single duty support/trust has be specifically designed for each dungeon. What I call falling for SE's slight of hand is you thinking that aoe vs no aoe matters. It doesnt. NPC damage scales in real time depending on your damage output to ensure an intended dungeon length. They could do all AoE every attack in shb dungeons and that is entirely seperate from how long the dungeon takes.

The simplest solution here is to realize Duty Support/Trusts allow you to basically (in some cases, literally) afk through any dungeon. Stop trying so hard, you're really not getting anywhere much faster. Let the NPCs do all the heavy lifting like they're designed to do. Press any random button every few seconds to pretend like you're contributing. Just keep in mind there's no payoff for extra effort.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I see you are just wildly making up extra stuff instead of answering the question, doesnt matter. Every single duty support/trust has be specifically designed for each dungeon. What I call falling for SE's slight of hand is you thinking that aoe vs no aoe matters. It doesnt. NPC damage scales in real time depending on your damage output to ensure an intended dungeon length. They could do all AoE every attack in shb dungeons and that is entirely seperate from how long the dungeon takes.

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Saying that damage scales with level is "making stuff up." Amazing. Incredible. Flawless.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Saying that damage scales with level is "making stuff up." Amazing. Incredible. Flawless.

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It's meant on the same level, one chain of 3 bosses back to back with 15k each or one singular boss with 100k. No where did I say I was talking about different levels. You just made that up, just like you made up a fourth boss. This was a response to you saying:

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Dude you think that the number of encounters/bosses has no bearing on how long a dungeon is.

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Anyway, you're still missing the point and you are doing so with surgical precision.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

It's meant on the same level, one chain of 3 bosses back to back with 15k each or one singular boss with 100k. No where did I say I was talking about different levels. You just made that up, just like you made up a fourth boss.

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So you're telling me that you do the exact same damage numbers in ARR dungeons that you do in SHB dungeons? You hit a boss for 2000 dmg in SHB dungeons and then you roulette into an ARR dungeon and you're still hitting bosses for 2000 dmg? Because that's the only possible way your 15k vs 100k boss argument works.

And Brayflox has four bosses, so.

I cannot believe the amount of gaslighting that's gone on in this thread. Here are some other things that are bs:

- The SHB Trust NPCs do not do more damage if you stop hitting your buttons. I tried this twice in Holminster Switch. The dungeon took 50% longer to beat.

- The SHB Trust NPCs do not switch to AOE attacks if you pull W2W. I tried this three times in Malikah's Well and once in Mt. Gulg. Thancred died before even one enemy did because Alphinaud couldn't keep up with the healing, and I wiped every single time.

- The SHB Trust NPCs and the ARR/HW Duty Supports are not functionally the same because you CAN pull W2W in ARR/HW dungeons and not die. Ysayle had no problems in Sohm Al when I tried it, and that dungeon is filled with poison at parts.

The new Duty Support AI is better than the SHB Trust AI. Period. And I just want the SHB Trusts to be as good.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Anyway, you're still missing the point and you are doing so with surgical precision.

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That's because your point is just a meaningless theoretical that's backed up by "bro trust me." You haven't given me a single shred of evidence that Trusts attacking one at a time vs Duty Support using AOEs is the same. All you've done is just state it while not so subtly calling me stupid for being "tricked" into thinking otherwise.

I have been actively playing in the Duty Support and the Trusts for the past two months trying to get an alt to all jobs at 90. There is a marked difference between the two. Don't tell me that there's not, because this is literally the bulk of what I've been doing in the game nonstop.

Again: if there was no functional difference between the new Duty Supports and the SHB Trusts, then why would they bother changing the behavior of the AI at all? Seriously. If they produce exactly the same results, why did SE bother spending dev time, resources, and money to make the behaviors different? Especially when the team is already stretched thin thanks to FFXVI.

It's because they don't produce the same result, and the newer content is better tuned. And I certainly would hope so, since SHB came out nearly four years ago now.

If you can come back with an argument with more substance than just "shut up, even" then I'll entertain it. But I've lost my patience with this. I'm not replying to you again.

You are applying player mechanics to NPCs. Our potencies are set in place, you can look them up in tooltips. I'm always casting holy at the same potency regardless of how much everyone else is doing. This does not apply to NPCs. Their potencies are not set in place and will adjust like other people in this thread have correctly pointed out. The goal of duty support is provide a longer dungeon run than the average duty finder run. This is what NPCs are tuned to. For this approach it is entirely irrelevant how NPC actions look or what they are called. A timelength is determined per dungeon by SE, NPCs are scaled to that time.

You are getting it backwards. The design process isnt 'lets decide on which actions and stats we will give the NPCs and see what happens from there' (they did this with squadrons). It's 'we want this dungeon to take this amount of time and are adjusting dps behind the scenes on the fly to ensure that'.

I think the Trust System is well-balanced. Queues are instant. You can force them to double-pull. Generally speaking, the Trust healer/tank seem to play by different rules than standard players. I can't recall a single time the Trust tank died because the pull was too big. It means you have to provide most of the AOE DPS to bring down that group. First few times I ran a dungeon on a job with the Trust System, it probably took around 28-30 minutes. But you are forced to play your job better and then I think many of the EW dungeons could be cleared in 23-24 minutes.

The only thing that bothers me about the AI of the Trust System is that these are supposed to be the Scions of the Seventh Dawn - warriors of great power. And they really don't fit that bill. Y'shtola is supposed to be powerful and wise wizard, yet she just spams Scathe or something. And Alisaie n00bs it up casting the mage LB when the first boss is at 1%. Great job.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Had a Holmester Switch run that took 40 minutes with actual people.
Trust cleared in 25 minutes tops.

There are people that play that badly.

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Especially if you are a healer who is putting out DPS or a BRD/MCH/DNC who is using peloton between pulls to force faster running.

My average runs were generally ~20 min give or take a min or two on either end. And yes, some of my Trusts runs were indeed faster than some of the real players I got put with in the DF.