Alliance Raid Looting

I will just cut straight to the point here, I have a serious issue with the looting system in Alliance Raids. There are a few pieces of gear I'm missing from the Heavensward Alliance series and would very much like to get them for glam. The problem is as you probably guessed the queue times. Waiting twenty minutes minimum just for a chance to even see the gear I want is unacceptable to me, it's one of the reasons I quit other MMOs.

The Development team for 14 has a great thing going with the totems you receive from Extreme Content where theres that RNG protection. So I would like to see that system implemented in Alliance Raids where you receive a totem for every clear of the raid. You could then use those totems at vendor and buy the gear, triad, minion, whatever you want.

I would like to also say that I would not mind this half as much if the queue times for these raids (besides Crystal Tower) could get up to an hour long. Farming through party finder doesnt seem like much of an option either since its up to the RNG gods you find a group. 24 is a lot more than 8 and I struggle finding 8 people a lot of the time.

I just want my Void Ark Caster gloves :(

Party finder, unsynced. You need like maybe 5 people, just wait until you get 6 and tell them you're starting in 5 minutes regardless of how many players show up. And then do it. You do need at least one in each alliance. Spam untill you got whatever you and everyone else wants.

So like...there's this neat little feature in the game called Party Finder and-

You can do it unsynced with 3. You might need more for certain mechanics, it depends, but 3 is the minimum you need to actually queue into it unsynced.

And good news, the next mogtome event looks like it will have a shadows of mhach focus. That means youll have like a month of much shorter ques. Good luck!

Once again, this is a tragic side effect of individuals dragging the pool of Alliance Raid Roulette participants into CT using item level manipulation (you notice it by checking if someone's HP isn't full when you zone in), reducing how many people are left for 3.X/4.X/5.X series raids since most people will run the roulette once a day.

This isn't just people doing MSQ in Crystal Tower or directly queueing for it and I'd appreciate if we stopped lying to ourselves about this.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Once again, this is a tragic side effect of individuals dragging the pool of Alliance Raid Roulette participants into CT using item level manipulation (you notice it by checking if someone's HP isn't full when you zone in), reducing how many people are left for 3.X/4.X/5.X series raids since most people will run the roulette once a day.

This isn't just people doing MSQ in Crystal Tower or directly queueing for it and I'd appreciate if we stopped lying to ourselves about this.

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And once again, thats an issue thats not as common as you might think.

Do we have to continue bringing up this conversation?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

And once again, thats an issue thats not as common as you might think.

Do we have to continue bringing up this conversation?

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The mere fact that this occurs to begin with is an issue in itself. Frequency doesn't matter as much as the fact that it has been used this way, to dismay to various other players.

So yes, we do have to continue bringing up this conversation. Or should we pretend the issue isn't important because it doesn't happen often enough for certain people?

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

The mere fact that this occurs to begin with is an issue in itself. Frequency doesn't matter as much as the fact that it has been used this way, to dismay to various other players.

So yes, we do have to continue bringing up this conversation. Or should we pretend the issue isn't important because it doesn't happen often enough for certain people?

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The fact that it happens isnt the problem, but the fact that people pretend its frequency without actual data to prove it is what I have issue with.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

The fact that it happens isnt the problem, but the fact that people pretend its frequency without actual data to prove it is what I have issue with.

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I totally get you, which is why my point wasn't about frequency but rather it existing and it being used in the first place. How frequent this is done depends on datacenter, time of day and current patch (like how some patches ask you to complete specific raid series, like Bozja required Ivalice series).

My problem is the existence of it as it is a clear point that can be abused and has been abused. The frequency is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I totally get you, which is why my point wasn't about frequency but rather it existing and it being used in the first place. How frequent this is done depends on datacenter, time of day and current patch (like how some patches ask you to complete specific raid series, like Bozja required Ivalice series).

My problem is the existence of it as it is a clear point that can be abused and has been abused. The frequency is irrelevant.

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The problem is that CT works just like any alliance raid where you do actually need a certain ilv to get into it. Its main gimmick is that CT itself is by the far the fastest alliance raid to clear which is the incentive for those people to force its queue.

If they go back and rework all of the CT raids to be more challenging and the same level of length and quality as the current raids then that would be a win. But then those cheaters would just move on the Void Ark (which I think is the next fastest raid?) and try to manipulate ilv for quicker clears.

Its just like with bots, except youre combating with a very low minority of people whom do what they do because they want to get their daily raids done quickly.

I cant find a good solution to permanently solve it without reworking the level sync/item lv system for all instanced content

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

The problem is that CT works just like any alliance raid where you do actually need a certain ilv to get into it. Its main gimmick is that CT itself is by the far the fastest alliance raid to clear which is the incentive for those people to force its queue.

If they go back and rework all of the CT raids to be more challenging and the same level of length and quality as the current raids then that would be a win. But then those cheaters would just move on the Void Ark (which I think is the next fastest raid?) and try to manipulate ilv for quicker clears.

Its just like with bots, except youre combating with a very low minority of people whom do what they do because they want to get their daily raids done quickly.

I cant find a good solution to permanently solve it without reworking the level sync/item lv system for all instanced content

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There are various options to consider actually.

1.) Rebalancing of the raids (ARR + potentially HW)
While the least likely due to the amount of effort required to rescale the raid, it will have the most profound impact based on the potency-per-second difference from now to back in ARR. Our HP is also a lot more consistent with the addition of Vitality on all gear pieces, making a boss like Bone Dragon and his Platinal adds a minimal threat. This alone may not be enough though, leading to...

2.) Item level CAP
A much easier to implement feature as it exists throughout the entire game already. The minimum item level for the CT raids are 40 item levels below the respective Coil Raid cap that was obtainable since then (LotA min 50, 1st Coil max 90; ST min 70, 2nd Coil max 110; WoD min 90, 3rd Coil max 130).

Considering there is currently no cap, we are essentially doing Labyrinth of the Ancients with 80 item levels above the intended difficulty and Syrcus Tower still by a whopping 60. Higher even, as 135 is the item level maximum for Lv50.

3.) Dynamic item level requirements
Hardly a shocker, these exist as well. While currently statically implemented every major patch with Mentor Roulette, a dynamic version is not out of the question. Essentially lift the item level and unlock requirements based on your job's current level to continue being able to do Alliance Raid roulette on that job. Fundamentally:
- per level backet (50, 60, 70, etc) require minimum 1 of your current level bracket and all previous unlocked
- per unlocked duty, raise minimum required item level based on the highest currently unlocked

This is essentially a small-scale database check on your unlocked content and searching for "max" on "minimum item level" in your available duties.

4.) EXP adjustments
Should all else fail, an adjustment to EXP and/or other rewards are an option. However I wouldn't leave it at "just increase for all other content", I'd go as far as saying "reduce it for LotA and ST" if they remain in the powercrept state they are currently in.
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I'll be honest, it is a hot mess and I won't say it is "easy to just do it'" given I work in a similar work environment, but it is definitely within their scope and within reason to do SOMETHING about it.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

If they go back and rework all of the CT raids to be more challenging and the same level of length and quality as the current raids then that would be a win. But then those cheaters would just move on the Void Ark (which I think is the next fastest raid?) and try to manipulate ilv for quicker clears.

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The ilv cheese would no longer be valid, since any player in the queue below level 60 will thwart their efforts to cheese the roulette. Reworking the CT raids will undoubtedly remove one part of this problem.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The ilv cheese would no longer be valid, since any player in the queue below level 60 will thwart their efforts to cheese the roulette. Reworking the CT raids will undoubtedly remove one part of this problem.

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I do miss co-tanks actually having to do something, like tanking an Iron Giant away from the group on Behemoth or having to consider the adds on Bone Dragon to be staggered - or god forbid, the platinals actually doing dangerous damage again.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Once again, this is a tragic side effect of individuals dragging the pool of Alliance Raid Roulette participants into CT using item level manipulation (you notice it by checking if someone's HP isn't full when you zone in), reducing how many people are left for 3.X/4.X/5.X series raids since most people will run the roulette once a day.

This isn't just people doing MSQ in Crystal Tower or directly queueing for it and I'd appreciate if we stopped lying to ourselves about this.

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Even if that trick didn't work, you're gonna get CT raids in the roulette 90% of the time regardless because its REQUIRED to continue the MSQ now.

make it so your level would reflect the maxmum min ilevel needed for the max level 24 man raid, so you can just cheese it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Once again, this is a tragic side effect of individuals dragging the pool of Alliance Raid Roulette participants into CT using item level manipulation (you notice it by checking if someone's HP isn't full when you zone in), reducing how many people are left for 3.X/4.X/5.X series raids since most people will run the roulette once a day.

This isn't just people doing MSQ in Crystal Tower or directly queueing for it and I'd appreciate if we stopped lying to ourselves about this.

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No one is saying it is? We are saying crystal tower is the ONLY series you HAVE to unlock and that means anyone leveling is probably dragging 23 people into it. Everytime they do the roulette. Everyone sub 69 if pirates isn’t unlocked. Everyone sub 79 if tactics raids aren’t unlocked, and everyone sub 89 if Nier isn’t unlocked.

I myself had three 90s before I unlocked two of those three. Never once Ilvl cheeses and still dragged hundreds of people into crystal towers.

*make the game free to play up to level 60*
*complain about the amount of sub 60 raids that are popping up*
Who. Could. Have. Seen. This. Coming.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

*make the game free to play up to level 60*
*complain about the amount of sub 60 raids that are popping up*
Who. Could. Have. Seen. This. Coming.

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Except the people who complain it (a few players) and the people who make it happen (the dev) are not one and the same?

And to echo other comments, the ilvl-cheese is hardly the issue here. It's very similar to how people talk about the issue of a "few" individual hoarding a lot of house as if it's really make a different. Is it a problem? Yes. But the point is even if the dev re-possess all of those houses, it would not even make a small dent to house availability. The real problem(s) lie somewhere else.


I had said before but I played for almost 10 years now, my main (who have everything unlocked) rarely have a reason to run Alliance anymore. These days I mostly play on my alts, especially when it comes to lvling. And guess what, I don't need to cheese the ilvl to get in ... I simply don't have any other Alliance raid unlocked, so I guarantee to get CT raid regardless of what ilvl or class level I'm on. Meaning, it would render all the suggestions I ever heard about this issue moot. And I can tell, there are a lot of people like me, and we will pull you into CT raid even if there is no one ilevel cheese, ontop of the new players of course.


The people suggesting moving CT to its own story roulette ... yeah, that never gonna happen. SE will not want to give impression to their potential new subscribers (new players or people on free trial) that the games have low pop by having those people wait a long time for CT to pop. Remember the time before the original 8men Castrum/Pre before they got the reward buff? It took a long time for new players to pop them too. What happened after the buff? You can pop it any time you want in less than 5min. Castrrum/Pre went from the things nobody want to run to the next best selling hotcake.


THAT is the root problem. The 3.0 to 5.0 Alliance, especially 5.0 have extremely shit reward ratio to time spent. If you look at it, people want to run CT roulette because when you get it, the Alliance roullete would yield roughly the same reward/time ratio as the other roulettes. But if you queue into a 4.0 ... or heaven forbid, the 5.0 raid, then suddenly the Alliance roulette efficient ratio drop by not just by a factor of 2, but 3, or even 4 times if you get a bad group. It actually would be weird if most players don't try to avoid it.


You want people to queue, or at least not to avoid it, you gotta make it worth their time. Do that, and all other the problems will solve by themselves. Any other method to force people into it will simply be met with resistance and you can bet people will try to find away to get around it.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

make it so your level would reflect the maxmum min ilevel needed for the max level 24 man raid, so you can just cheese it anymore.

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Wouldn’t affect as many as you think; it’s been said on the various other postings already, but some players simply don’t unlock the raids if they aren’t required. New players might not even care to do them since the loot is not useful when compared to, say, tomestone sets or just straight dungeon gear as they level.

Not to mention alts; mine will never unlock raids outside of CT.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

You want people to queue, or at least not to avoid it, you gotta make it worth their time. Do that, and all other the problems will solve by themselves. Any other method to force people into it will simply be met with resistance and you can bet people will try to find away to get around it.

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It will definitely solve people's willingness to do other raids.

It will not solve the problem, that LotA and ST (and probably Void Ark too) are severely undertuned for today's standards and are genuinely boring to play for those who never minded the rewards to begin with.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Wouldn’t affect as many as you think; it’s been said on the various other postings already, but some players simply don’t unlock the raids if they aren’t required. New players might not even care to do them since the loot is not useful when compared to, say, tomestone sets or just straight dungeon gear as they level.

Not to mention alts; mine will never unlock raids outside of CT.

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Could always combine that with requiring to unlock all the raids currently available of a level bracket first to ensure "simply not choosing to unlock xy" is not an option anymore.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Could always combine that with requiring to unlock all the raids currently available of a level bracket first to ensure "simply not choosing to unlock xy" is not an option anymore.

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That goes against what the devs have built the game to be regarding optional content.

They can change when parts become required MSQ content, but otherwise it’s strange to require optional content suddenly.

Like, imagine requiring people to unlock the Alexander raid series before being able to do Eden.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

That goes against what the devs have built the game to be regarding optional content.

They can change when parts become required MSQ content, but otherwise it’s strange to require optional content suddenly.

Like, imagine requiring people to unlock the Alexander raid series before being able to do Eden.

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Alliance Raid Roulette is optional content that you don't need to unlock to progress story. Your point?

You can stick to just having Crystal Tower series, you just don't have access to the roulette then.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

They can change when parts become required MSQ content, but otherwise it’s strange to require optional content suddenly.

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*Looks at guildhests* (which even suffers from a similar issue)

Optional content is not an issue if the optional content actualy does have something in it that is worth it.

And especialy with roulettes ment to aid people into completing content, if you are having a lot of people in those roulettes that lack the available content on a very regular basis, it is actualy a problem. Sure, it makes a bit of the content accessible, but because they constantly enable a full party for that 'weak' content, they are removing potential players for that harder content. Which as a result makes those even less played. By forcing people to unlock such content, you negate that issue.

But it comes with a secondary issue. The queue for those raids can take a very significant wait time (easily 40mins per raid meaning at least 2 hours for the set). And as a result, you are basicly moving from the group that can support others, to a group that needs the support. This can be quite anoying to face.

Still, i think that requirement would be worth it.

Maybe however, the alliance raids need to be splitted up into 50/60 (f2p) and 70/80/90 (p2p), and maybe even make the 50/60 always take all of them anyway. This way players can decide to avoid the f2p raids and force themselve to aid the pool for the later players. This should feel a bit similar to the expert and lvl90 roulette in behaviour then.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Alliance Raid Roulette is optional content that you don't need to unlock to progress story. Your point?

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And? neither does the raid roulette. Or the 50/60/70/80 dungeons. Or the trials. They all have stuff in them that is entirely optional, and none of them require you to 100% complete all duties in the list in order to use them. Want to know why?
Because the devs want roulettes to be fully accessible at all levels and spectrums of the MSQ progression, full stop. Anything that hinders a player's ability to utilize roulettes on the way up through the MSQ is instant disqualification on the idea board for the devs.

Not to mention, its just player hostile. You suddenly ding 60 and now you can no longer do that same roulette you could do literally 2seconds ago? How about someone progging through post ARR, having fun queueing for roulettes with their friends but OOPS, they ding 60 and now they can no longer access the roulette until they complete HW and scrounge the ilvl to queue Void Ark. but wait! Thanks to their 2x exp buff, they now ding 70 before they're even done the HW MSQ! So now they're locked out until they manage to complete the rest of post HW MSQ AND SB. OH BUT WAIT! Now they hit 80 during SB and...(repeat until 90 and they complete EW story for Agalaia)

Any "adjustment" to any roulette that is meant to generate EXP that involves retroactive punishment by locking a player out would be laughed out of the design room by the devs in a fraction of a nanosecond.

Besides, they won't do anything that hurts CT at all. CT is the only raid required by MSQ - it's the only raid they care gets its queues filled for. (It's also why they wouldn't do anything to make it harder either - they don't want it to turn into a roadblock for anyone in the MSQ). The only realistic solution that the devs would have a chance higher than 0% to agree with to the whole Alliance raid problem is to make CT its own roulette with the same large rewards Alliance raid has currently in order to incentivize it.

Another pointless thread about a non-issue. 'working as intended'

Wasnt this thread originally about acquiring raid loot?

How about we create yet another thread about raid roulettes and leave this poor topic alone.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Alliance Raid Roulette is optional content that you don't need to unlock to progress story. Your point?

You can stick to just having Crystal Tower series, you just don't have access to the roulette then.

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I would say burden of proof is on you to prove there is actually a problem beyond "omgz why I gotz CT AGAIINNNZZ on da rouletteeee"

Either
A) People who queue for a specific raid get that raid after some reasonable amount of time (~10-30 minutes)
or B) They can't get the raid to pop at all.

After just right now queueing/doing both Ridorana Lighthouse and Puppet's bunker, I got them both in under 30 minutes (15ish for Ridorana). This is a Tuesday night in Japan on a Japanese server. No idea if that's average, but if it is then it's 100% working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Wasnt this thread originally about acquiring raid loot?

How about we create yet another thread about raid roulettes and leave this poor topic alone.

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Agreed;

@OP: You have a lot of good suggestions- the easiest is get a group of friends together and just raid it hard a couple of times unsync'd. Should be a fun night!

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

3.) Dynamic item level requirements
Hardly a shocker, these exist as well. While currently statically implemented every major patch with Mentor Roulette, a dynamic version is not out of the question. Essentially lift the item level and unlock requirements based on your job's current level to continue being able to do Alliance Raid roulette on that job. Fundamentally:
- per level backet (50, 60, 70, etc) require minimum 1 of your current level bracket and all previous unlocked
- per unlocked duty, raise minimum required item level based on the highest currently unlocked

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I wouldn't be surprised if dynamic requirements aren't possible with the current duty finder overhaul – the fact that they manually update one roulette with a new patch is not proof that they can vary it spontaneously during live gameplay.

I suspect that the current algorithm was designed with only ARR in mind and they didn't put much thought into how it would need to work as the game expanded.

If it's possible for them to update it, I would love to see it set up for better matching of people to duties closer to their level range – perhaps give people the option of fastest queue versus waiting a little longer if it means a higher duty – and also to update the "adventurer in need" bonus to specify a level range and not just a role.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I would say burden of proof is on you to prove there is actually a problem beyond "omgz why I gotz CT AGAIINNNZZ on da rouletteeee"

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While I generally am okay with your response, Im a bit flabbergasted over how you misinterpret my primary issue with this.

Im not sure how much proof I will have to generate to satisfy the burden of proof about the item level cheese being usable and used in the first place (which I have had happen on more than one occasion simply by looking at HP bars of players around me randomly going 60% as we zone in), but I assure you that while I find CT boring, I don't see a problem with it popping in the first place.

So please don't twist what I see as my main issue, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

And to echo other comments, the ilvl-cheese is hardly the issue here. It's very similar to how people talk about the issue of a "few" individual hoarding a lot of house as if it's really make a different. Is it a problem? Yes. But the point is even if the dev re-possess all of those houses, it would not even make a small dent to house availability. The real problem(s) lie somewhere else.

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I agree with most of you post except this one. Sure the multi buyers are a small part of the problem, but SE still needs to act against them. It’s not feasible for them to provide enough space for everyone to have the house they want so they need to do what they CAN do. Repossessing EVERY house owned by multi owners without refunds will send a message preventing the behavior. The entire system is built around one house per person so these are clearly exploiters.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

While I generally am okay with your response, Im a bit flabbergasted over how you misinterpret my primary issue with this.

Im not sure how much proof I will have to generate to satisfy the burden of proof about the item level cheese being usable and used in the first place (which I have had happen on more than one occasion simply by looking at HP bars of players around me randomly going 60% as we zone in), but I assure you that while I find CT boring, I don't see a problem with it popping in the first place.

So please don't twist what I see as my main issue, thank you.

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If that isn’t your main issue, then surely you’ve read countless times in countless other postings that the issue of CT popping up more than others is simply not the problem people are making it out to be. I don’t really care to reiterate it again, but ilvl cheese or not is simply not going to reduce CT’s occurrence that much. If I have otherwise misunderstood you, I apologize for that.

New players are getting the raids they want to pop. It may not be a short 5 minute wait, but they are popping.

Sometimes I keep track for anecdotes to post. :rolleyes: I've done about 5 alliance roulettes since last tuesday and the towers I've raided have not been crystal and I've seen some first clears.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Sometimes I keep track for anecdotes to post. :rolleyes: I've done about 5 alliance roulettes since last tuesday and the towers I've raided have not been crystal and I've seen some first clears.

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YMMV.

Since last week's reset, my roulette on main hasn't been giving him anything but CT raid. Meanwhile on my alt who I queued in as lv60s has been getting 5 Mhach raids, it's a bit mindblowing.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

YMMV.

Since last week's reset, my roulette on main hasn't been giving him anything but CT raid. Meanwhile on my alt who I queued in as lv60s has been getting 5 Mhach raids, it's a bit mindblowing.

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Yep. That's my point. No one will ever be able to put together enough data to pin down an exploit. However, come the 12th, things will surely lean towards the Mhach series.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

After just right now queueing/doing both Ridorana Lighthouse and Puppet's bunker, I got them both in under 30 minutes (15ish for Ridorana). This is a Tuesday night in Japan on a Japanese server. No idea if that's average, but if it is then it's 100% working as intended.



Agreed;

@OP: You have a lot of good suggestions- the easiest is get a group of friends together and just raid it hard a couple of times unsync'd. Should be a fun night!

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Who do I gotta blow to get those queue times? My Ivalice queues were each 40 min or more, and I was on tank lol
And I appreciate your words : )

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

So like...there's this neat little feature in the game called Party Finder and-

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im aware of party finder, as i said, i will concede to never trying to make one and have never ran an alliance raid unsynced so im unsure how the different mechanics would be handles with less that 24 people. but it isnt just an issue for mhach, its an issue for ALL alliance raids past CT. when i want to farm the dark apocalypse items i could make a PF but we'd need a lot more than 7 others id assume. its a problem writ large and pretending like its not doesnt help. many more people use DF than PF. would appreciate a not snarky comment if you disagree with me.

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Originally Posted by SonjaRampage

Another pointless thread about a non-issue. 'working as intended'

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except it is? how hard would it be to impalement a totem system for the raids? thats a band-aid solution that i think would do wonders for loot frustration

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Originally Posted by brokenghost

except it is? how hard would it be to impalement a totem system for the raids? thats a band-aid solution that i think would do wonders for loot frustration

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It's not that it would be hard, but it would be cumbersome, adding more vendors or vendor options. There's already an alliance currency that has a specific purpose. It would also kill the incentive to even run them past a certain point.

I just linked this in another thread... an ambitious player set out to queue each raid specifically. This is the result.