Suggestion for Samurai

I have an idea to help out samurai to be more felxable.
Make it so the Kaiten buff we get with our dash can either boost our Midera and Ogi damage,say by 50% damage boost the same as the monk buff, or enhances our basic combo to aoe.
This would allow Samurai more flexabilty with our dashes and allow us to swap between single target or aoe without wasting kaiten charges for an aoe since the gcd timer makes it a punshing choice to do while chasing or fighting a single person.
Also this could allow samurai some help without really changing much.

>50% damage boost

https://media.tenor.com/IePl7ghqhTkA...ling-spits.gif

Is Chiten not enough?

5 0 %

https://i.redd.it/12crtxen0q461.jpg

I don't think you three have even played samurai in pvp

No, I think all melees, as they currently are, have enough power as it is. You're good.

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

I don't think you three have even played samurai in pvp

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Ok our hyperbole meme reaction aside, you are really leaning yourself far out of the window to claim this.

Samurai is my most played DPS in PvP discounting DRK and GNB (because they are dps-y tanks instead), both in ranked and in casual. Samurai for similar reasons like Warrior or Monk has access to Stun and another CC ability along with additional personal defensives in various forms. And just like those two other jobs, SAM works a little harder for their damage output than perhaps other jobs, to make up for having said CC abilities.

If you gave Midare Setsugekka +50% dmg via Kaiten, it would shoot up to 24000 without the Chiten debuff and to 30000 with it. Please also remember you gain this ability using "Meikyo Shisui", rendering you immune to all CC abilities for a guaranteed cast, with the exception of WHM's "Miracle of Nature". This CC immunity goes a LONG way to secure kills and / or bait out CC from the enemy.

Ogi Namikiri would hit for 18000 for the initial cast and another 12000 (or 18000 if you dashed again) on the second one without Chiten debuff, reaching 22500 per enhanced hit under both effects. Putting that aside, each dash does 4000 dmg by itself, so even on the standard combo you get a 7000, 9000 or 12000 ability + weaponskill combo in, depending on the step ofc. And the bind from Hyosetsu is positively strong to disrupt enemies.

All in all, while SAM isn't "perfect" by any means, it is a healthy all-rounder. It has moderate damage, defensives and access to CC abilities, making him an excellent team fight initiator. If I can recommend something that could be fixed, it is Zantetsuken's 24000 dmg not piercing Guard like the Kuzushi-enhanced Zantetsuken does.

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

I have an idea to help out samurai to be more felxable.
Make it so the Kaiten buff we get with our dash can either boost our Midera and Ogi damage,say by 50% damage boost the same as the monk buff, or enhances our basic combo to aoe.
This would allow Samurai more flexabilty with our dashes and allow us to swap between single target or aoe without wasting kaiten charges for an aoe since the gcd timer makes it a punshing choice to do while chasing or fighting a single person.
Also this could allow samurai some help without really changing much.

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Don't think that this is the best solution but I like the direction your going maybe we can flush this out a bit better since 50% is big
Also don't sweat the responses most of them cry about FL cheeses

excluding Reinhardt_Azureheim they know what they are talking about even if we don't agree on everything I respect their thoughts

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

I don't think you three have even played samurai in pvp

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I have an alt dedicated to grinding on the SAM class. I just dont play at a high level. May as well be a secondary to me.

Now then, you're asking for an additional damage boost for the cast weaponskills...fair. 50% from dashing? I can't agree with it. Chiten already offers a 25% stat bonus if you're using the ability as a defensive tool or a 50% stat bonus if you're using it as a counter burst tool. You already do 20k damage with Midare and 10k?/15k damage with Ogi while your opponent is affected with the debuff, and that isn't even factoring in Chiten's reactive damage or any dashes that you decide to do. Do those numbers really need to be that big?

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

I don't think you three have even played samurai in pvp

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And I don't think you are very good with Samurai if you think it needs a 50% boost.

People really underestimate SAM's stun and the secured kills it provides

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Originally Posted by Geryth

People really underestimate SAM's stun and the secured kills it provides

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They are a pseudo tank with their kit and the sooner Samurai players learn to use their stun and bind correctly the better.

Look if you want to play a pseudo tank you are better off going with a drg or monk. Drg has a 50% damage reduction for 10secs and a 12k life steal. Monk has 16k worth of shields in thunder clap and riddle of earth can heal you for 4k plus 50% of all damage taken over 10 secs. Sam has a 25% damage reduction for 5 secs and the damage buff only applies if they hit you and lasts 3 secs and your last skill on your combo does 100% of damage done as a life steal, which will not help you 9 times out of 10 if you are being focused in any meaningful way, maybe as a way to off set cleave damage at most.
If we still had the 50% chiten yeah maybe we could do it. But with such a nerf we either need to do more damage or get rid of casts for the skills since they don't hit hard enough to warrant a cast time on a melee job (mind you sam cast times are only 0.14 secs faster then a black mage cast)
And yes I have taken Sam to crystal every season including this one, I prefer sam since I play it in pve as well but the other jobs are just better in every way and I can play them just as well.
If sure 50% is a bit much I kinda just was thinking about Fire Resonance when i wrote the original post thats pretty much it.

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

Look if you want to play a pseudo tank you are better off going with a drg

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No. DRG is tanky (maybe tankier than it should be) but it in no way plays like a tank. Dragoon has zero support, zero CC, zero peel. It's a pure damage class with good mobility and that's it.

Monk is slightly a bruiser pseudo tank class that can push enemies away, shield teammates, and charge to both enemies and party members. Peeling for and supporting teammates is something it can do.

SAM has a stun that is huge utility that DRG just doesn't have, and is more powerful than the utility of Monk's kit. Stun denies recuperate and guard or baits purify, but most of the time a well placed stun is just a secured kill since the sustain of PvP has been moved to each individual player responsible for their own health pool. No sustain = dead. Crowd control is king in Crystaline Conflict and the reason DRG performs well without one is because it does insane damage, is insanely mobile, and is insanely tanky, but the reason it's just not blatantly OP is because it doesn't have a stun. SAM is just going to do less damage because of that stun, and that's correct design imo.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

No. DRG is tanky (maybe tankier than it should be) but it in no way plays like a tank. Dragoon has zero support, zero CC, zero peel. It's a pure damage class with good mobility and that's it.

Monk is slightly a bruiser pseudo tank class that can push enemies away, shield teammates, and charge to both enemies and party members. Peeling for and supporting teammates is something it can do.

SAM has a stun that is huge utility that DRG just doesn't have, and is more powerful than the utility of Monk's kit. Stun denies recuperate and guard or baits purify, but most of the time a well placed stun is just a secured kill since the sustain of PvP has been moved to each individual player responsible for their own health pool. No sustain = dead. Crowd control is king in Crystaline Conflict and the reason DRG performs well without one is because it does insane damage, is insanely mobile, and is insanely tanky, but the reason it's just not blatantly OP is because it doesn't have a stun. SAM is just going to do less damage because of that stun, and that's correct design imo.

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Okay if a Sam and a drg are on the same team who do you kill first?

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

Okay if a Sam and a drg are on the same team who do you kill first?

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If we're talking about first engagement, usually neither. After first engagement what matters a whole hell of a lot more than job is LB progress, mana, positioning, guard on CD etc. But, in general, I'd probably target DRG since it has more damage and team fight swing potential (in the extreme unlikelihood that the decision between the two is arbitrary given all variables in any moment in any game).

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

.All in all, while SAM isn't "perfect" by any means, it is a healthy all-rounder. It has moderate damage, defensives and access to CC abilities, making him an excellent team fight initiator.

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If you're initiating on SAM you're either the sole melee and / or the enemy team doesn't have a WHM, BRD, or RDM. As a SAM you want to go in after the fight has been started and play disruption / skirmish with your binds and Mineuchi; then drop tons of aoe damage with Namikiri and Mangetsu. Rinse, repeat. Initiating on SAM in high Crystal is generally not smart.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

They are a pseudo tank with their kit and the sooner Samurai players learn to use their stun and bind correctly the better.

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Compared to the likes of DRG and RPR, they are not a pseudo tank. SAM is an all in melee that has no way to escape outside of poor enemy positioning and a kit then relies on said enemy positioning. But I will agree with you on many players not understanding how SAM's kit works, a few of which are in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

No. DRG is tanky (maybe tankier than it should be) but it in no way plays like a tank. Dragoon has zero support, zero CC, zero peel. It's a pure damage class with good mobility and that's it.
Crowd control is king in Crystaline Conflict and the reason DRG performs well without one is because it does insane damage, is insanely mobile, and is insanely tanky, but the reason it's just not blatantly OP is because it doesn't have a stun. SAM is just going to do less damage because of that stun, and that's correct design imo.

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You mention that DRG does not play like a tank (while mentioning it's 'insanely tanky') but its entire kit allows it to play like one if need be. An AoE damage reduction every 25 seconds without relying on the enemy to hit you and a LB that allows you to be undamaged for 5 seconds. Combine those with Guard and you have a good point staller during OT. As I mentioned to Reinhardt, SAM does not have a kit suited for prolonged and sustained fights. It wants to dash in, disrupt, deal tons of AoE damage, and get out.

Top 100 SAM btw. Started CC near the tail-end of S1 and the only class I play in PvP.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

You mention that DRG does not play like a tank (while mentioning it's 'insanely tanky') but its entire kit allows it to play like one if need be.

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No, having lots of HP and a mitigation ability that is offset by a de-mitigation ability (that you're ideally using on CD) doesn't mean you "play like a tank". You aren't peeling and yanking enemies at you for a party member who's being focused. You aren't stunning and setting up kills. You aren't shielding teammates. You aren't disrupting spell casts. You run around and hit stuff. That's literally all DRG can do. DRG's kit in no way allows it to "play like a tank". Tank in PvP means a hell of a lot more than just soaking damage.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

No, having lots of HP and a mitigation ability that is offset by a de-mitigation ability (that you're ideally using on CD) doesn't mean you "play like a tank". You aren't peeling and yanking enemies at you for a party member who's being focused. You aren't stunning and setting up kills. You aren't shielding teammates. You aren't disrupting spell casts. You run around and hit stuff. That's literally all DRG can do. DRG's kit in no way allows it to "play like a tank". Tank in PvP means a hell of a lot more than just soaking damage.

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So I'm going to assume you have alts right? Because you only have drg unlocked for melee and only warrior high enough to bring into pvp

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Originally Posted by Geryth

No, having lots of HP and a mitigation ability that is offset by a de-mitigation ability (that you're ideally using on CD) doesn't mean you "play like a tank". You aren't peeling and yanking enemies at you for a party member who's being focused. You aren't stunning and setting up kills. You aren't shielding teammates. You aren't disrupting spell casts. You run around and hit stuff. That's literally all DRG can do. DRG's kit in no way allows it to "play like a tank". Tank in PvP means a hell of a lot more than just soaking damage.

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Nice non-argument. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about; your lack of PvP experience matches your lack of reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

So I'm going to assume you have alts right? Because you only have drg unlocked for melee and only warrior high enough to bring into pvp

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Nice non-argument. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about; your lack of PvP experience matches your lack of reading comprehension.

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Nothing of substance and personal attacks. The good ol' FFXIV PvP forum experience at its finest.

How, pray tell, is DRG's playstyle anything remotely similar to GNB/WAR/PAL/DRK? Well, I guess if you had an answer, you would have said as much instead of going for the ad hominem approach. No reason to engage further with either of you.

As it ahs been said drg as no cc or stun adn you can guard our LB. so how is dragon super tanky and op again? now if i had all of my jumps and had multi charges on them and they gave you down for the count statutes for say 5 secs then we could maybe say drg is op and tanky.

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Originally Posted by Latarma

As it ahs been said drg as no cc or stun adn you can guard our LB. so how is dragon super tanky and op again? now if i had all of my jumps and had multi charges on them and they gave you down for the count statutes for say 5 secs then we could maybe say drg is op and tanky.

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Yeah, you don't have CC because you have the Ultimate CC... death. They nerfed the dragoon limit break instead of trying to fix it. The problem wasn't the damage it's that you can't see the damn thing or tell half the time which one is your team or an enemy team. A simple color swap would have done everything it needed.

Dragoon is pretty tanky to be fair. No other dps job can jump into the enemy team basically laugh off their damage then leave and continue to burst them from range.

I do think they should move away from the cast time melee on samurai. All it really does is create a massive gap between the skill floor and ceiling. You can see this when you play with/against good/bad samurai. Really good samurai are a massive threat, but there aren't that many of them running around.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Yeah, you don't have CC because you have the Ultimate CC... death. They nerfed the dragoon limit break instead of trying to fix it. The problem wasn't the damage it's that you can't see the damn thing or tell half the time which one is your team or an enemy team. A simple color swap would have done everything it needed.

Dragoon is pretty tanky to be fair. No other dps job can jump into the enemy team basically laugh off their damage then leave and continue to burst them from range.

I do think they should move away from the cast time melee on samurai. All it really does is create a massive gap between the skill floor and ceiling. You can see this when you play with/against good/bad samurai. Really good samurai are a massive threat, but there aren't that many of them running around.

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The strength of a drg lb is it forces people to either use a guard or take the damage or punishes people who already guarded. If you take a full power drg lb you are pretty much dead if you don't have an escape skill. Also the fact it comes up more often and it's kill potential is better than a samurai's lb Also don't forget you can't be targeted for up to 5 secs and if you hit a horrid roar after coming down you can tank all the damage coming to you

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Originally Posted by Geryth

Nothing of substance and personal attacks. The good ol' FFXIV PvP forum experience at its finest.

How, pray tell, is DRG's playstyle anything remotely similar to GNB/WAR/PAL/DRK? Well, I guess if you had an answer, you would have said as much instead of going for the ad hominem approach. No reason to engage further with either of you.

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I ask because looking at your character you don't even know how those jobs work yourself since you don't have them unlocked to being with. And to answer your question I know how the tanks work I'm actually good with them as the with the other jobs as well. So I'm talking from know how every job plays from in pvp granted I wouldn't bring them all into ranked myself for the benifet I'm not going to be better than someone who plays just that job up in crystal

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

The strength of a drg lb is it forces people to either use a guard or take the damage or punishes people who already guarded. If you take a full power drg lb you are pretty much dead if you don't have an escape skill. Also the fact it comes up more often and it's kill potential is better than a samurai's lb Also don't forget you can't be targeted for up to 5 secs and if you hit a horrid roar after coming down you can tank all the damage coming to you

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Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Dragoon Limit break was cut back pretty substantially which was dumb because it can be guarded or ran from. It doesn't kill anyone at full hp anymore not even black mage. Samurai limit break is a two-step process which counter plays many other two step attacks. It's super easy to land if you are paying attention to what people are pressing. The samurai limit break is fine as is in conflict. You can't always count on escaping after using a dragoon limit break. If I see the marker, I'm already hovering over my crowd control button.

Again, casting bar melee is a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

I ask because looking at your character you don't even know how those jobs work

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You don't need to be in the driver's seat of every single job to have a sense of how they play or to know the basic roles of a job type or what kind of abilities enable certain styles of play. A couple hundred CC games teaches you a lot about the play style of each job both as enemies and teammates.

Notice I'm not the one who asserted that SAM should be played more like a tank, I only chimed in the rebuke the notion that DRG is a choice for a tank-style of play. It decidedly is not. And for that assertion I do in fact have the driver's seat experience. Regardless, access to a stun automatically opens up SAM to use it for a variety of purposes - peeling for a teammate getting focused or chased, securing a kill by denying recuperate/guard, zoning enemies out of pushing the crystal, trapping enemies in environmental hazards etc. That makes SAM way more flexible than DRG as far as how they can enable their teammates, and is a major reason it shouldn't be doing as much damage as some of the other jobs.

Might be a useless suggestion, but I'm going to put it out there anyway.

Mineuchi offers stun. Yet I overlooked the part where even if the stun can be negated the ability itself ignores guard. Why not give it a buff to where it's dealing 10% max hp instead of 10% current hp?

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Might be a useless suggestion, but I'm going to put it out there anyway.

Mineuchi offers stun. Yet I overlooked the part where even if the stun can be negated the ability itself ignores guard. Why not give it a buff to where it's dealing 10% max hp instead of 10% current hp?

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Not a bad start but I think they would just make it a set potency then that if anything. But overall all Sam is an all in job but lacks the defensives and life steal to stay in. It's like a horrible mix of skirmisher without the damage to back it up and a tank without the ability to stick in the fight and do much for long. If they want Sam to be a fake tank it needs life steal with chiten but to be a skirmisher it needs the ability to do massive burst in a short time

While I agree with various points in the thread to the point it may be a bit much to list every single one of them, I'd like to clarify what I meant earlier citing Samurai as a "pseudo tank".

When I define a tank, I define them by their access of crowd control abilities or alternate peeling abilities. In the case of Samurai, this means their access to stun [Mineuchi] and bind [Hyosetsu] as their available interuption/peeling tools. The fact it has [Hissatsu: Chiten] and lifesteal via [Oka] is just some level of tankiness. Jobs in this category for me are:
[Tank] Paladin, Warrior
[DPS] Samurai

Being "tanky" does not automatically define a tank, pseudo or real deal - being "tanky" while being a good DPS means you are essentially a Bruiser. You go in, do the hurt and either hold the ground or bail if you fail, but you have limited or no crowd control/peeling tools. Jobs in this category are:
[DPS] Dragoon, Reaper, Monk
[Tank] Dark Knight, Gunbreaker

Short: tanky =/= Tank, but a Tank generally is tanky.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

While I agree with various points in the thread to the point it may be a bit much to list every single one of them, I'd like to clarify what I meant earlier citing Samurai as a "pseudo tank".

When I define a tank, I define them by their access of crowd control abilities or alternate peeling abilities. In the case of Samurai, this means their access to stun [Mineuchi] and bind [Hyosetsu] as their available interuption/peeling tools. The fact it has [Hissatsu: Chiten] and lifesteal via [Oka] is just some level of tankiness. Jobs in this category for me are:
[Tank] Paladin, Warrior
[DPS] Samurai

Being "tanky" does not automatically define a tank, pseudo or real deal - being "tanky" while being a good DPS means you are essentially a Bruiser. You go in, do the hurt and either hold the ground or bail if you fail, but you have limited or no crowd control/peeling tools. Jobs in this category are:
[DPS] Dragoon, Reaper, Monk
[Tank] Dark Knight, Gunbreaker

Short: tanky =/= Tank, but a Tank generally is tanky.

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What ranking are you if you want to share

Do you really not know what that helmet he's wearing means? xD

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

What ranking are you if you want to share

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https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...or_achievement

But it's pretty asinine to only weigh the opinion of top players in a discussion around PvP design, particularly regarding mechanics and roles that are the basics of every team-based PvP game ranging from MOBAs (LoL) to FPS's (Overwatch) to MMOs like XIV. He's described how PvP tanking works in almost every modern PvP game.

Being good at the game doesn't also mean being good at game design or understanding how it works, though it's clear Reinhardt is good at both.

It's so silly to me you're here stalking player profiles before deciding whether or not what they said has any meaning to you.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...or_achievement

But it's pretty asinine to only weigh the opinion of top players in a discussion around PvP design, particularly regarding mechanics and roles that are the basics of every team-based PvP game ranging from MOBAs (LoL) to FPS's (Overwatch) to MMOs like XIV. He's described how PvP tanking works in almost every modern PvP game.

Being good at the game doesn't also mean being good at game design or understanding how it works, though it's clear Reinhardt is good at both.

It's so silly to me you're here stalking player profiles before deciding whether or not what they said has any meaning to you.

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Would you take someone stuck in bronze seriously when you ask how a job plays?

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

Would you take someone stuck in bronze seriously when you ask how a job plays?

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If they've played enough? Absolutely. Hell even someone who only queues casual has valid insight to share. This entire thread is about a buff to SAM and went a lot into how jobs and job roles play, and you don't even need to have played XIV to know how a tank functions in a team-based PvP game. Anyone who plays online games who's never touched XIV could have had a productive conversation here in this thread.

A vast majority of the XIV PvP experience happens outside of crystal tier. The only valid time to gatekeep the discussion to crystal players is if the topic at hand is about crystal-level games and the meta there, or when the skill ceiling of a job is so high that a successful style of play is vastly different at different ranks. Being that the design philosophy of XIV's PvP has been catering to the lowest common denominator and flattening the skill floor and ceiling as much as possible (there's like maybe 10 buttons to press in XIV PvP) for many many years, that's not really something this game sees a lot of like you commonly see in other games.

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

What ranking are you if you want to share

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Season 19 The Feast, Top 100 (ranked #85), playing WAR DRK
Season 20 The Feast, 2000ish Diamond, playing DRK WAR
Season 1 Crystal Conflict, Crystal below 1000, playing DRK WAR
Season 2 Crystal Conflict, Crystal below 1000, playing DRK PLD
Season 3 Crystal Conflict, a very lazy Plat 1-ish, playing DRK SAM

I am going to be honest, I enjoy PvP heavily, but I have been mostly doing scrims or playing for improving on multiple jobs and trying new techs. But the lack of incentive for Ranked really hits on my mood to play.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Do you really not know what that helmet he's wearing means? xD

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Well, it has been a while since the gear came out, so I don't blame people not knowing.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...or_achievement

But it's pretty asinine to only weigh the opinion of top players in a discussion around PvP design, particularly regarding mechanics and roles that are the basics of every team-based PvP game ranging from MOBAs (LoL) to FPS's (Overwatch) to MMOs like XIV. He's described how PvP tanking works in almost every modern PvP game.

Being good at the game doesn't also mean being good at game design or understanding how it works, though it's clear Reinhardt is good at both.

It's so silly to me you're here stalking player profiles before deciding whether or not what they said has any meaning to you.

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I feel a little flattered, thanks mate.

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

I have an idea to help out samurai to be more felxable.
Make it so the Kaiten buff we get with our dash can either boost our Midera and Ogi damage,say by 50% damage boost the same as the monk buff, or enhances our basic combo to aoe.
This would allow Samurai more flexabilty with our dashes and allow us to swap between single target or aoe without wasting kaiten charges for an aoe since the gcd timer makes it a punshing choice to do while chasing or fighting a single person.
Also this could allow samurai some help without really changing much.

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You have no idea what you are doing, do you?

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Originally Posted by RileyNoxus

I have an idea to help out samurai to be more felxable.
Make it so the Kaiten buff we get with our dash can either boost our Midera and Ogi damage,say by 50% damage boost the same as the monk buff, or enhances our basic combo to aoe.
This would allow Samurai more flexabilty with our dashes and allow us to swap between single target or aoe without wasting kaiten charges for an aoe since the gcd timer makes it a punshing choice to do while chasing or fighting a single person.
Also this could allow samurai some help without really changing much.

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>Flexible
>Adding more damage

Am I missing the punchline or something? If you were aiming to make the job more 'flexible', you'd move around the power budget. Less damage and more utility. Nerfing the LB in favour of adding something into the base kit would be preferable imo, so the LB isn't just a win fight button.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

>Flexible
>Adding more damage

Am I missing the punchline or something? If you were aiming to make the job more 'flexible', you'd move around the power budget. Less damage and more utility. Nerfing the LB in favour of adding something into the base kit would be preferable imo, so the LB isn't just a win fight button.

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yeah samurai is just a meme class at the moment lol.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

yeah samurai is just a meme class at the moment lol.

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Job itself is more or less fine imo, the people who main it are the memes or the ones making it a meme at the very least.

Like, if I wanted to make samurai more flexible, I'd remove the one-shot gimmick from the LB entirely since it encourages non interaction with no counterplay and shift that power around into survivability. 4k shield per person hit with whatever the aoe drain is or whatever else. Not just MOAR DAMAGE!!1