Specific Paladin Buff/Change Suggestion

Greetings.


As many have noticed, Paladin's offense is roughly 9% weaker than the damage output of other tanks right now.

But this post isn't about just raising potencies. Patch 6.0 made Paladin a bit more boring to play.
What I'm referring to is the loss of significant GCD manipulation and a satisfying finisher.

I will explain in four steps. The past, the present, why the present is less fun, then suggested changes.

Reminder: Paladin can get 11 GCDs into Fight or Flight


1. What was back then:

- The Fight or Flight opener starts with Riot Blade and ends with Goring Blade.

- Every rotation after the opener puts instead 4 Atonements into Fight of Flight, replacing a buffed Riot Blade, to gain a bit more damage.

- Because buffed Atonement was higher damage than Holy Spirit, Paladins would ideally end fights with 3 Atonements, then use Requiescat, Confiteor, and the boss dies.


2. What is now:

- The Fight of Flight opener starts with Riot Blade and ends with Goring Blade.

- Atonement potency is too low. Due to how the new Blade of Valor applies its DoT effect, shifting your combo to gain 4 Atonements is not a DPS gain anymore.

- Because Holy Spirit is higher damage than Atonement, we don't adjust anything in our rotation. The boss ideally dies after 4 Holy Spirits into one Confiteor.


3. Why what we have now is less fun:

- GCD manipulation is mostly gone. We do not adjust out combo to go from 3 buffed Atonements into one Confiteor anymore. This felt great because Paladins felt like they skipped a part of their combo in order to explode on the boss. Now we either follow our normal rotation and hope the boss dies at the right moment, after 4 monotone Holy Spirits and the Confiteor.

- Paladin's Blade of Valor combo deals so little initial damage, that we don't want the fight to end with it used. This is very sad since it looks and feels so satisfying.


4. Which changes would make Paladin more fun?

- Buffed Atonements should deal more damage than Holy Spirits. This would reward Paladins for being close and timing their rotation right. It would make jumping from Atonements to Confiteor and Blade of Valour much more explosive.

- The new Blade of Valor combo must have more initial potency than buffed Atonements or Holy Spirits. Not necessarily the first two hits, but the last one has to explode. This would make it feel great to end fights with it again.

- Circle of Scorn should have a cooldown of 25 seconds again. It meant that no matter when you press it, you can get one use of it inside of Fight or Flight. It also meant that Paladins don't always press Spirits Within (now Expiacion) and Circle of Scorn together, which made it feel a bit less boring. Right now these two buttons might as well be one.

These are my proposed changes. They would not affect casual Paladins, but bring great joy to top level Paladins.

Also please revert Clemency to what it was in Shadowbringers. Thank you for reading!

I mostly agree to your three suggestions; with PLD lagging behind, we'd mostly be able to warrant the added potency. Even if not, though, I'd correct for that internal balance (or, "dynamics") first and adjust overall potency thereafter as needed.

Are they lagging that much behind all tanks or is it just darks?

I think they may lower dark dps a bit. Paladin plays well and that's the most important thing

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

Are they lagging that much behind all tanks or is it just darks?

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We don't have a full tier worth of data yet - but when everyone plays well, Paladin is about 6% lower than Warrior, and 7% below GNB. DRK is close to GNB but a slight cut above.

I would like to keep the discussion about where the potency should be attributed to PLD.

SE knows Paladin deals a bit too little damage right now, and I am not worried they will get the balance right. What matters to me is how they do it. Targetting the suggested areas would make the job a bit deeper, as it was in Shadowbringers, and more fun to casual players, too, because the big Blade of Valor combo would have bigger numbers attached to it.

I think PLD just need a potency buff to at least be on par with warrior, nothing more and nothing less.

I just want my 50% increased heals while under Requiescat back. There was no reason to remove that effect since if we have to use Clemency for any reason while we are in our MP rotation, we have just wasted a good Holy Spirit/Circle for nothing now. Instant cast doesn't make up for using one of the stacks. I used to be able to plan around the healer dying and saving my Requiescat for all super heals for myself and the party to live at the loss of my own DPS. For tanks at 82+ I can see you trying to argue that since we have Holy Sheltron/Spirit/Circle, we don't need those super heals. However, what about PLD that aren't 82 yet? We have lost a huge utility that was unique to us and we should get it back.

Also, they should increase the heal potency of Holy Circle from 400 to 600. Makes no sense that it heals the same as Holy Spirit when it should heal more due to being an aoe skill and having lower damage. WAR gets healed per enemy they hit, yet PLD's is static so a potency increase is valid.

PLD GCD now has low GCD manipulation? i dont get it, thanks to Atones and Req realying on 30secs stacks you can shift your rotation easily w/o losing uptime at all.You may break a combo but never loss a GCD.

Lack of damage is easily solved with some balance and having the most versatile kit between all tanks, having it deal more damage than most of them would be unfair to say the least.
I do believe the discrepancy rn is a bit too much but also this is an easy fix

4 atonements was clearly not intended, it was just something that ppl figured out trough out the expansion. PLD has ever have been a tank that dont relies on big bursts but on consistency, this a reality since ARR.


Rotation wise with only 2 primals to experiment and few normal raids for now we can already see that the real problem is that, due to the downtime the optimal rotation starts with a -16 secs FoF.
BoV starter combo feels underwhelming for sure, but it's not a big problem for me at least since is just a filler to replace the buffless Goring.

To wrap it up i realize most of the point you bring are related to the ability to raise your damage, and its fine to want that, but if damage is what you're focusing on there's a role for that. The QoL aspect that PLD and WAR received are extremely good compared to ShB, but of course you're free to disagree.

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Originally Posted by NeoDivinity

PLD GCD now has low GCD manipulation? i dont get it, thanks to Atones and Req realying on 30secs stacks you can shift your rotation easily w/o losing uptime at all. You may break a combo but never loss a GCD.

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I think the OP's point was that there's now little to no potency value in rearranging one's GCDs in 100% uptime situations.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

no potency value in rearranging one's GCDs in 100% uptime situations.

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than i really dont get it, on 100% gcd situation you would not need to rearrange anything unless you messed up combos, right now you can choose to use the 2nd or 3rd, atonement stack skiping 3 to 4 seconds of the rotation to gain damage out of the FoF window, based on how the party is aligning its buffs to fit the next window with goring+Req combo perfectly. My point is that on Endwalker we do have more options to control our GCDs and how to use it w/o losing uptime if we need to step away from the boss, situations that as a PLD you'll face for exemple on Trial 2 Chackrams phase if youre using the in/out strat as a Group 2 member.

the gap between the floor and the ceiling of the job is already quite due to this flexibility

Personally, I think blade of faith/truth/valor are very satisfying finishers to use. I mean, you drop giant swords on the enemy. Low key I like this as much as I like the summoner effects. It feels great.

As far as DPS goes, I wonder if PLD is intentionally tuned a bit lower because of all the defensive options it has, and the improved MP economy and that clemency is much less punishing to use. I know everything is weighted by damage, but I really like the defensive options PLD has now and so if there's any damage buff, I hope it won't come at a cost of said defensive options.

Also of note is that PLD is currently very popular - only a tiny bit behind warrior - so maybe the strength of PLD's utility is worth considering in the face of its slightly lower DPS.

You say defensive options but you do realise, Paladin still has the least amount of personal mitigation out of all four tanks, right?

You state "the strength of PLD's utility" but:

Passage of Arms is at the expense of one additional personal cooldown, compared to the other three tanks.

Divine Veil is equivalent to Shake it Off, Dark Missionary and Heart of Light, but a degree worse off, as it does not affect the Paladin that used it (while people like to make excuse to deny Paladin have Veil affect them, "but you're a tank you don't need it," fine, remove the others affecting the tank using it instead?)

Cover costs gauge, and has a 120 second cooldown, that's cost enough for "utility" when it has little to no use outside of niche scenarios. Animation delay for the skill activating, the fact a lot of raid wides either ignore Cover, or are potent enough will just one shot you, makes it useless in most cases. Once upon a time, Cover was good, not anymore.

Clemency costs both MP and GCDs to use, it's not infinite usage and its usage is at the expense of DPS and desyncing rotation.

These are aspects people never factor in, they sheepishly utter but utility without any forethought in the job's process of said utility, when Paladin's ask for any kind of buff, it's actually stupid Paladin's aren't seemingly allowed to ask for a buff anymore.

Paladin has already paid its price for the utility it has, damage should not be a further cost, otherwise you step into realms of double jeopardy, punishing something twice for the same thing.

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Originally Posted by NeoDivinity

but if damage is what you're focusing on there's a role for that.

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In fact, there are three roles for that. You've got blue DPS, green DPS, and red DPS. The kind of damage a job outputs, regardless of which color of DPS it is, factors heavily into how it will be regarded by the community at large. Jobs with poorer performance are less likely to be given spots.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Once upon a time, Cover was good, not anymore.

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The diminishment of Cover to something so niche it is basically non-existent as part of the kit has rankled me for a while. Asides from the ability to use white magic, Cover is the iconic ability of the classic Knight/Paladin job in the Final Fantasy series and it is sad that it has essentially been tossed in the corner and forgotten instead of being a discernible part of PLDs' kit.

I think they should remove the Oath cost on it, reduce the cooldown to 90s and increase it's range slightly to 12y like other proximity tether buffs or potentially even more since abilities like Intervention have ranges like 30y. Maybe even add back some mitigation to it now that Intervention and the defensive utility abilities of the other tanks were made so strong in Endwalker. It really should be an ability that you want to use when you can in place of Intervention, paired with Holy Sheltron and/or other defensives to greater effect.

Along with the Cover changes I would also like to see Passage of Arms have its recast changed to 90s. It would make very little difference in usage of the ability due to the way it functions but it would then have all 3 of the more "unique"/"quirky" PLD abilities on the same 90s recast which would match with the 90s recast of the other tanks unique extra defensive abilities (Thrill of Battle, Camouflage) and partywide defensives.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

The diminishment of Cover to something so niche it is basically non-existent as part of the kit has rankled me for a while. Asides from the ability to use white magic, Cover is the iconic ability of the classic Knight/Paladin job in the Final Fantasy series and it is sad that it has essentially been tossed in the corner and forgotten instead of being a discernible part of PLDs' kit.

I think they should remove the Oath cost on it, reduce the cooldown to 90s and increase it's range slightly to 12y like other proximity tether buffs or potentially even more since abilities like Intervention have ranges like 30y. Maybe even add back some mitigation to it now that Intervention and the defensive utility abilities of the other tanks were made so strong in Endwalker. It really should be an ability that you want to use when you can in place of Intervention, paired with Holy Sheltron and/or other defensives to greater effect.

Along with the Cover changes I would also like to see Passage of Arms have its recast changed to 90s. It would make very little difference in usage of the ability due to the way it functions but it would then have all 3 of the more "unique"/"quirky" PLD abilities on the same 90s recast which would match with the 90s recast of the other tanks unique extra defensive abilities (Thrill of Battle, Camouflage) and partywide defensives.

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It truly is disappointing Cover has become what it is now, I genuinely miss using it in SB, it was so versatile in it's usage, and I would like to see something done with Cover. I personally find it's range to be more than fine, as more often than not, no one should be so far spread apart that it's range becomes an issue, but of course randoms in DF aren't always so aware. But as of now, Intervention is just too strong compared to Cover to even consider spending 50 gauge on anything other than Intervention in a situation you could use Cover, outside of niche circumstances, none of which exist in 90 content presently that I am aware of.

As for Passage, I agree with your assessment that it wouldn't really make a difference in it's usage it adjust it's recast, it's somewhat particular in how it's used effectively, so you might get an extra use on a savage fight over current 120 second cooldown, but only if the fight lines up to allow it. Passage can be very fight dependent, in organised groups it use will be better used compared to a random DF/ PF group, but at no point will it ever be a mandatory ability, only due to the fact that it very optional due to no other tank having it. Simply because comps can comprise of no Paladin present, and fights are designed to be cleared with any comp, so at best it will always be a nice to have skill but nothing more.

As of right now though, I do agree with OP that Paladin does need a potency buff more than it needs anything else, preferably on Royal Authority and Atonement primarily, to allow 4 Atonement Fight or Flights to be a gain once more. This separated Paladin from the other tanks in GCD manipulation that made it fun to play, while the barrier in difficulty to execute has dropped a tad due to the extended stack duration, the Fight or Flight duration would be the only difficult part in it's execution. Any extra potency that may need be added should be given to the on hit potencies of the Blades combo. Overall, just tired of seeing people use the utility of the job as an excuse to have Paladin be bottom of the pack or deny any pleas for buffs.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

In fact, there are three roles for that. You've got blue DPS, green DPS, and red DPS. The kind of damage a job outputs, regardless of which color of DPS it is, factors heavily into how it will be regarded by the community at large. Jobs with poorer performance are less likely to be given spots.

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cummunity at large ? more like the top 1-5% lol
for DPS there is 1 role... the role is called DPS...
blue DPS and green DPS is more of a meme. its nice to have and can be fun but not that important if your not someking of Elitist top player or something... and your talking about "less likely to be given spots" confirms this.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

You say defensive options but you do realise, Paladin still has the least amount of personal mitigation out of all four tanks, right?

You state "the strength of PLD's utility" but:

Passage of Arms is at the expense of one additional personal cooldown, compared to the other three tanks.

Divine Veil is equivalent to Shake it Off, Dark Missionary and Heart of Light, but a degree worse off, as it does not affect the Paladin that used it (while people like to make excuse to deny Paladin have Veil affect them, "but you're a tank you don't need it," fine, remove the others affecting the tank using it instead?)

Cover costs gauge, and has a 120 second cooldown, that's cost enough for "utility" when it has little to no use outside of niche scenarios. Animation delay for the skill activating, the fact a lot of raid wides either ignore Cover, or are potent enough will just one shot you, makes it useless in most cases. Once upon a time, Cover was good, not anymore.

Clemency costs both MP and GCDs to use, it's not infinite usage and its usage is at the expense of DPS and desyncing rotation.

These are aspects people never factor in, they sheepishly utter but utility without any forethought in the job's process of said utility, when Paladin's ask for any kind of buff, it's actually stupid Paladin's aren't seemingly allowed to ask for a buff anymore.

Paladin has already paid its price for the utility it has, damage should not be a further cost, otherwise you step into realms of double jeopardy, punishing something twice for the same thing.

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You're out of date - you're still thinking of PLD in shadowbringers.

PLD's MP economy has never been better, and clemency no longer desyncs the overall rotation. It still costs a GCD which is not good, but it's easier than ever to use.

But also, shelltron and requiescat self heal at no cost so you get a lot of sustainability without ever needing to fear losing a GCD to clemency. But if you do need even more, you can use it with far less penalty now.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Just blind tinted sunglasses, Warriors utility is far above.

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Warrior gets disproportionate attention because its crazy good in dungeons. In a raid/single target setting, however, PLD really shines.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Overall, just tired of seeing people use the utility of the job as an excuse to have Paladin be bottom of the pack or deny any pleas for buffs.

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Just blind tinted sunglasses, Warriors utility is far above.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

You're out of date - you're still thinking of PLD in shadowbringers.

PLD's MP economy has never been better, and clemency no longer desyncs the overall rotation. It still costs a GCD which is not good, but it's easier than ever to use.

But also, shelltron and requiescat self heal at no cost so you get a lot of sustainability without ever needing to fear losing a GCD to clemency. But if you do need even more, you can use it with far less penalty now.

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Shelltron spam is crazy good.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Just blind tinted sunglasses, Warriors utility is far above.

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Warriors are broken and need some serious tuning down.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Warrior gets disproportionate attention because its crazy good in dungeons. In a raid/single target setting, however, PLD really shines.

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Holmgang, on demand super heal, on demand counter part Veil, Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash are crazy stronger than Sheltron/Intervention. Sheltron/Intervention can soak more damage, BW/NS heal far more in value.

Holmgang is more broken than ever, 10s buff, 4 mins cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Holmgang, on demand super heal, on demand counter part Veil, Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash are crazy stronger than Sheltron/Intervention. Sheltron/Intervention can soak more damage, BW/NS heal far more in value.

Holmgang is more broken than ever, 10s buff, 4 mins cooldown.

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You're just showing, once more, that you don't know the jobs very well.

Warrior super heal is not a super heal unless it has multiple targets.

In fact, in a raid setting, nascent is the exact same strength as holy spirit's self heal. And if you have a 2.4 GCD, you can use holy shelltron every 24s - very similar to that warrior 25s CD - which makes up for the parts of nascent/bloodwhetting that holy spirit doesn't have, and that you "only" get to spam holy spirit every minute.

Jeez, and here I thought only the healer forums got into this kind of stuff...

(Yeah, holmgang is good in its way, but has a higher healing requirement, and PLD has other stuff to compensate)

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

You're out of date - you're still thinking of PLD in shadowbringers.

PLD's MP economy has never been better, and clemency no longer desyncs the overall rotation. It still costs a GCD which is not good, but it's easier than ever to use.

But also, shelltron and requiescat self heal at no cost so you get a lot of sustainability without ever needing to fear losing a GCD to clemency. But if you do need even more, you can use it with far less penalty now.

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I assure you I am not out dated with my assessment, PLD was technically 2 cooldowns behind the others in ShB, due to Sheltron not actually mitigating any damage it just removed the RNG element from blocking, now Holy Sheltron does actually provide mitigation. Still one cooldown behind the other tanks.

MP economy isn't necessarily the issue but doesn't change the fact Clemency Still uses MP as a resource without it you ain't casting anything, and once you run dry, it's gonna be a struggle just like in ShB to get MP back. Sure Holy Spirit/ Circle and Confiteor cost less but that doesn't mean you can't run into MP issues in prog or if you run into crappy situations.

"clemency no longer desyncs the overall rotation." what are you smoking? any deviation away from the standard rotation with Clemency after Requiescat desyncs the rest of the rotation from raid buffs, Paladin is the most strict rotation out of the four tanks. Paladin cannot delay it's rotation like the other 3 without incurring pretty substantial DPS loss. Even if you use Clemency inside of Requiescat you're gimping your DPS even more than it already is due to Paladin being under-tuned.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

You're just showing, once more, that you don't know the jobs very well.

Warrior super heal is not a super heal unless it has multiple targets.

In fact, in a raid setting, nascent is the exact same strength as holy spirit's self heal. And if you have a 2.4 GCD, you can use holy shelltron every 24s - very similar to that warrior 25s CD - which makes up for the parts of nascent/bloodwhetting that holy spirit doesn't have, and that you "only" get to spam holy spirit every minute.

Jeez, and here I thought only the healer forums got into this kind of stuff...

(Yeah, holmgang is good in its way, but has a higher healing requirement, and PLD has other stuff to compensate)

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Bruh....

Equilibrium is so strong Thrill buffs it, now Equilibrium has Regen.

Doesn't matter if Paladin has Holy Sheltron/Holy Spirit healing.

Thrill is a cure, Equlibrium is a super heal + Regen, Storm Path heals. BW/NS feeds heal, damage reduction + barrier.

Holmgang can be popped 2-3x in a fight, HG is only 1-2x a fight.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

MP economy isn't necessarily the issue but doesn't change the fact Clemency Still uses MP as a resource without it you ain't casting anything, and once you run dry, it's gonna be a struggle just like in ShB to get MP back. Sure Holy Spirit/ Circle and Confiteor cost less but that doesn't mean you can't run into MP issues in prog or if you run into crappy situations.

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But you get to nearly full MP at the end of Requiescat. Yes, you still need a chunk going into it. But not nearly as much as used to be needed. Yes, Clemency isn't unlimited - but you can use it with far less penalty.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

"clemency no longer desyncs the overall rotation." what are you smoking? any deviation away from the standard rotation with Clemency after Requiescat desyncs the rest of the rotation from raid buffs, Paladin is the most strict rotation out of the four tanks. Paladin cannot delay it's rotation like the other 3 without incurring pretty substantial DPS loss. Even if you use Clemency inside of Requiescat you're gimping your DPS even more than it already is due to Paladin being under-tuned.

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Because Requiescat and Sword Oath have windows within which you can do their actions. The timer limits that somewhat but you have flexibility on when to execute those actions. It's not the end of the world to lose a GCD.

But as I've said repeatedly, I still realize that losing a GCD is very bad, particularly in a highly optimized raid scenario. So my emphasis on those other things was that it can be done without losing a GCD anymore. I mean, why spend for clemency when Requiescat is spamming self heals on you anyways and holy shelltron comes up so often?

The GCD option is there. And more usable than ever. But not ideal and anything that takes a GCD never will be ideal, I'm not disputing that part. But in less than ideal situations, it's more healing with the tons of healing PLD already has.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Bruh....

Equilibrium is so strong Thrill buffs it, now Equilibrium has Regen.

Doesn't matter if Paladin has Holy Sheltron/Holy Spirit healing.

Thrill is a cure, Equlibrium is a super heal + Regen, Storm Path heals. BW/NS feeds heal, damage reduction + barrier.

Holmgang can be popped 2-3x in a fight, HG is only 1-2x a fight.

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And if we're going apples to oranges, Shelltron also gives guaranteed block (19% damage reduction whenever I use it, not sure if it varies based on stats), +15% flat damage reduction, independent of the standard tank CDs of course, and can heal the whole party (minus oneself, which is an odd quirk yes) even if it can't increase the barrier strength... and so on.

And, honestly, speaking as someone that plays healers too - if you're on warrior, your healers might still prefer you use regular mitigations on tankbusters, because a lot of warriors try to use holmgang where it isn't absolutely needed and it just increases the healing requirements (which translates into less party DPS by increasing the healing load). But, yes, warrior can cheese tankbusters/tank swaps slightly more often.

And then DRK over there doesn't have nearly so much, and has the highest invuln heal requirement, but has high damage.

And maybe warrior does need to be toned down a bit, especially in dungeons. But PLD is strong. Maybe not in damage, but overall, it is strong.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

But you get to nearly full MP at the end of Requiescat. Yes, you still need a chunk going into it. But not nearly as much as used to be needed. Yes, Clemency isn't unlimited - but you can use it with far less penalty.

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Emphasis on the word penalty, it is nonetheless punished for its use, the point I was making in my first post, Clemency requires 2 resources to use, and you can still overspend in the improved MP economy.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Because Requiescat and Sword Oath have windows within which you can do their actions. The timer limits that somewhat but you have flexibility on when to execute those actions. It's not the end of the world to lose a GCD.

But as I've said repeatedly, I still realize that losing a GCD is very bad, particularly in a highly optimized raid scenario. So my emphasis on those other things was that it can be done without losing a GCD anymore. I mean, why spend for clemency when Requiescat is spamming self heals on you anyways and holy shelltron comes up so often?

The GCD option is there. And more usable than ever. But not ideal and anything that takes a GCD never will be ideal, I'm not disputing that part. But in less than ideal situations, it's more healing with the tons of healing PLD already has.

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It's not even remotely close to what you have stated here, making use of Atonement or Requiescat stacks outside of their set place in the rotation should only be done where downtime will occur to reset Fight or Flight so as when the boss returns you can keep your rotation flowing as normal, or the boss is about to die and you want to dump as many hard hitting abilities in the remainder of the time left of the fight. Certain optimisations can be done like in the accessory EX trial, during meteor phase, you can pop Requiescat before he jumps to make a "Fight or Flight sandwich" Requiescat into Fight or Flight back into Requiescat. Outside of niche fight optimisations, you will force Paladin's rotation to desync.

They really should just make Cover a personal CD with a different name, and rename Intervention to Cover. That way PLD still "has" Cover while also actually use it.