Hotkey Bloat

So I just started playing dance and I feel like this class suffers from this the most out of what I have tried playing, but other classes do too so I decided to post it in general to get opinions or to see if I am alone in thinking this.

I feel like if you have a proc that gives you access to an ability that replaces another ability in a rotation 100% of the time (there is absolutely no situation where you would use the non-proc), the base ability should morph into the proc instead of it being a separate keybind.

For Dancer, this comes into play with their basic 1-2 combo for both single and AoE, as well as Feather Dance.

If you have a proc, you never use the base ability because then you chance wasting a proc. Given that Feather Dance 3 as well as the powered up combo moves are direct replacements and upgrades with no downside to using when procced, I feel like the base abilities should just become them.

It would save 5 hotkey slots, and would not take play complexity away from the class since there is no decision in when to use the proc.

This is different from say Red Mage with Verfire/stone where you may have both procced and have to choose which one to use. Jolt should not change to the proc because a potential choice still exists.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Sealish

It would save 5 hotkey slots, and would not take play complexity away from the class since there is no decision in when to use the proc.

This is different from say Red Mage with Verfire/stone where you may have both procced and have to choose which one to use. Jolt should not change to the proc because a potential choice still exists.

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There is a decision to make: the right one or the wrong one.

Besides, DNC has one of the sparsest bar sets out of all the jobs. Could some consolidation happen? Yes--though it would have an effect on gameplay by eliminating the wrong choices. Does DNC need the extra five spaces? No.

I absolutely support consolidating buttons when one button is 100% unusuable while another button is active, but just because you would be completely wrong to use the un-flourished weaponskill when the flourish is available doesn't mean you can't be bad and make the wrong decision. This isn't like SMN, which does need quite a bit of button consolidation because it basically has three different flavors of super saiyin phases, and it's not like RDM which has so many buttons that it needs to combine Verflare, Verholy, and Scorch with other buttons to avoid overflowing bars.

It's been a while since I played Dancer, but I'd say the reason they can't and shouldn't consolidate the procs is due to the nature of combos. I can't actually recall if Dancer combos are interrupted if you use the proc immediately, but if they are, then the order of using the skills has to be Combo > Proc. If they consolidate the buttons, this doesn't allow you to save procs(and also means they have to set each combo to also combo off the proc skill), and later on you will get a skill that causes you to gain every proc simultaneously, allowing you to do your highest damage GCDs outside of steps back to back in any order.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I can't actually recall if Dancer combos are interrupted if you use the proc immediately, but if they are, then the order of using the skills has to be Combo > Proc.

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The Dancer combo is only interrupted if you start the opposite combo, ie switching from the ranged combo to melee, or melee combo to ranged. Your procs don't interrupt your combo, and neither does Saber Dance.

That said, while there might not be no downside to dropping the weaponskill procs, shoving Fan Dance III into Fan Dance I+II's button would be a bad idea. The reason being that while Fan Dance I and II have a shared cooldown, Fan Dance III does not. If Fan Dance III replaced I+II when it procced, it would also have to go on cooldown at the same time, making it harder to double weave.

Also, considering how tight Dancer's burst phase can be, there may not be any benefit to actually doing this. It's not as if freeing up 4-5 hotkeys will necessarily free up space in your rotation for brand new weaponskills or abilities, since Dancer wants to save their Esprit Gauge and Fan Dance stacks for Technical Step.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It's been a while since I played Dancer, but I'd say the reason they can't and shouldn't consolidate the procs is due to the nature of combos. I can't actually recall if Dancer combos are interrupted if you use the proc immediately, but if they are, then the order of using the skills has to be Combo > Proc. If they consolidate the buttons, this doesn't allow you to save procs(and also means they have to set each combo to also combo off the proc skill), and later on you will get a skill that causes you to gain every proc simultaneously, allowing you to do your highest damage GCDs outside of steps back to back in any order.

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Procs do not interrupt combos, so you could, for example, do something like this:

Cascade (no proc) > Fountain (proc Fountainfall) > Cascade (proc Reverse Cascade) > Reverse Cascade > Fountainfall > Fountain (proc Fountainfall)

which in terms of buttons looks something like this:
https://i.imgur.com/MXGCEhL.png


Here's what that same sequence would look like with button consolidation (excuse the numbers):
https://i.imgur.com/eHwXHJe.png

Knowing the devs, I'd wager they think this looks confusing and consequently consciously chose not to consolidate these buttons. I'm especially inclined to believe this once you take into account Flourish, which instantly procs all flourishes. In the unconsolidated version, it's much easier to tell whether or not you have any procs that will be wasted because there's a clear difference between dimmed buttons and active dashed outlined butons. In the consolidated version, you have to exert more cognitive effort because there are never dimmed buttons. Is the second dashed outlined button a proc or just the base second step in the combo? It would take longer to learn how to screen for Flourish with that system.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

That said, while there might not be no downside to dropping the weaponskill procs, shoving Fan Dance III into Fan Dance I+II's button would be a bad idea. The reason being that while Fan Dance I and II have a shared cooldown, Fan Dance III does not. If Fan Dance III replaced I+II when it procced, it would also have to go on cooldown at the same time, making it harder to double weave.

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This much is not a problem, actually. Actions that share a button need not have the same cooldown. See: Nastrond and Gierskogul

Of all of the jobs that actually have button bloat, you go with Dancer, one of the jobs that has the least amount of buttons.

I was laughing quietly to myself, and then louder when someone else noticed. ^.^

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Originally Posted by Raltar

Of all of the jobs that actually have button bloat, you go with Dancer, one of the jobs that has the least amount of buttons.

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I went with Dancer because while playing it I specifically thought "Huh, I feel like there are 5 keybinds here that could be entirely done away with without changing how the job plays at all", and while there are other classes with this problem too, I felt it immediately upon unlocking the class. It may not be the worst class with button bloat, but the feeling was immediate.

I get what others here have said about how just because there is never a reason to not use the proc, you can still make the choice to not use it or not see it, and making that decision to use it is part of learning to play the class well. That is fair. I guess I just personally like to have my skill bar as optimized as possible and see it as a bit silly that something should take two buttons when the two skills are not only linked, but also mutually exclusive (in that when the upgraded one is available, there is absolutely no situation where you would choose to use the normal one which you will only use when you literally cannot use the upgraded one).

And I think that although this change would make lower skilled players make less mistakes, it is true, those mistakes are ones that they would stop making relatively quickly anyways. I don't think it would make the class any "easier" for a mid-high tier player to play, it would just make it more physically comfortable hand-wise.

As for being able to tell if you have a proc, you know that you get all 5 with flourish and so it is easy to count if you have used one or not. If you need to look, the skill icon will have changed. If you need more than that, they could always just make the outline for a proc and a combo a different colour.

I don't think the class NEEDS this change. It is admittedly pretty easy to play as is... but I do think that it would be a nice QoL change. For other classes with this same situation as well.

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Originally Posted by Sealish

As for being able to tell if you have a proc, you know that you get all 5 with flourish and so it is easy to count if you have used one or not. If you need to look, the skill icon will have changed. If you need more than that, they could always just make the outline for a proc and a combo a different colour.

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I don't mean for after activating Flourish. I mean, you want to use up all your procs before Flourish comes off cooldown so that you don't overwrite them with Flourish. Your goal in the last few seconds before Flourish becomes available should be to make sure you have five dimmed buttons. This would take more concentration if the buttons were consolidated.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

I don't mean for after activating Flourish. I mean, you want to use up all your procs before Flourish comes off cooldown so that you don't overwrite them with Flourish. Your goal in the last few seconds before Flourish becomes available should be to make sure you have five dimmed buttons. This would take more concentration if the buttons were consolidated.

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This could easily be fixed though if they used (for example) a green outline for procs and a yellow for combos. You would just need to make sure that you had no green outlines.

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Originally Posted by Sealish

This could easily be fixed though if they used (for example) a green outline for procs and a yellow for combos. You would just need to make sure that you had no green outlines.

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What becomes of the dance buttons then? Currently the hotkeys for the procs turn into two of the dance steps. Part of dancing is dancing in a randomized order between the four. They're also color coated to match. You could have the AOE skills turn into the other two dance steps, but then they won't be color coated any more for easy learning.

Seems like an awful lot to change just to suit your personal whim.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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The AOE skills are what I was thinking myself. Given that the actual skill icons change when you dance, the colour coding would remain. Yes the base skill icons match the colour of the dance moves, but this is more of a nice optical thing than an actual utility thing. Tinting the Windmill and Bladeshower skill icons Green and Yellow wouldn't be much to do if need be.

It isn't really an awful lot to change. The only Dancer Specific changes would be:
1) Rolling the Procs for AOE and Single Target Combos, plus Feather Dance 3 in to the basic skills. On proc, the skill icon would change to represent the proc. For new Dancers, this would be easier to learn than the current dancer system of separate buttons. It would not reduce decision complexity, but it would reduce mistakes from new players being distracted while learning the job. For current players, this would be easy to adapt to and would not increase their overall proficiency. For everyone though, it would make physical execution of abilities cleaner and more comfortable because you would have five less buttons you would need to place on your keyboard to reach. For anyone with small hands or a physical disability this would be a very welcome change.

2) Changing the colour of two skill icons (if needed). This could very easily and quickly be done, but since the skills actually change anyways while dancing it isn't all that necessary. I'll still put it here though.

This would also require an overall game system change:
1) Procs would have a different outline colour than combos. This would be welcome across the game anyways because it would be nice to be able to see at a quick glance what exactly that lit up border means. Usually a proc is more important to pay attention to than a combo que. I know that combos can be though of as procs themselves, but they are their own class of proc.

This may all be a personal whim, but I still don't really see how anything about it would be a negative change for anyone beyond maybe requiring veteran Dancers to relearn some minor muscle memory, something that they may have to do after any balance patch anyways. It would make new Dancers more effective in Duty Finder without changing the effectiveness of mid to high tier ones (better for the community as a whole), it would reduce the number of keybinds necessary which would make physically playing the class more comfortable and make it more accessible to people that have physical limitations that make having to stretch your hand across the entire keyboard difficult or painful, and it would reduce visual clutter that may lead to confusion by stacking the procs on top of the combo indicators (the fact that you have a combo active doesn't matter if you also have the proc active. You will always want to use the proc so that you don't end up wasting it by refreshing).

Is there any actual downside to this that I am not seeing or have not already addressed?

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Originally Posted by Sealish

Is there any actual downside to this that I am not seeing or have not already addressed?

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Is that level of mind numbing boringness really needed?

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Originally Posted by Shibi

Is that level of mind numbing boringness really needed?

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It isn't really any more or less boring than the class already is. Though I guess that this is definitely a personal opinion.
I look at complexity and how interesting a class is to play by how many decisions you need to make while playing it. With or without this change, the number of button presses and number of decisions doesn't change. You will never be in a situation where choosing to use the base skill is a better decision than using the proc. You loose a lot more potency by not using a proc (or by missing out on having used it by procing it again while you have the proc available) than by not using the combo. So if you have the proc, you will always press that button instead of the other button. When first learning the class, this may be a decision that you have to think about making, but after a day or two it no longer is. It is just automatic.

The decision complexity that keeps the class interesting and which allows you to optimize your play of it is making sure that you are using both dances (and your other cooldowns) on cooldown, making sure you use enough feathers so as not to overcap on them but saving enough for your burst phase, and making sure that you pick the right time to use Saber Dance before hitting 100 Esprit. The physical dexterity component comes from making sure you double weave your feather procs when possible, and managing to keep up with using everything during your burst phase. Occasionally pressing 2 or 4 instead of 1 or 3 on GCD because it is always optimal to do it when you can doesn't really add in any meaningful way to either decision or dexterity complexity once you spend the initial couple days getting used to the pattern and doesn't really make playing the class funner (again, an opinion). Removing that component would let new players focus on learning the fun part sooner and would make them more effective in group play as well.

But I will definitely admit that all of what I just said is a personal opinion. I think though that if you are someone that would find dancer boring with this change, you are also someone who finds dancer boring as-is. It isn't a very big change and doesn't change the rotation at all, it just changes what buttons you have to press to do the exact same thing.

Just play pvp kekw

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Originally Posted by Ruru_Nayu

Just play pvp kekw

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Huh, that's kinda neat. I don't play PvP so I didn't know how the skills changed for it. It's almost like a completely different job from the skill descriptions.

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Originally Posted by Sealish

I think though that if you are someone that would find dancer boring with this change, you are also someone who finds dancer boring as-is.

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Sorry, you think wrong and it's rather presumptuous of you to assume the voice of others.

Get your classes to 80 so you have the full kit, and then put the effort of hotbar bloat removal, possibly into other classes. Some of them really need some simplification - but DNC is very sparse on the hotbars.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

Sorry, you think wrong and it's rather presumptuous of you to assume the voice of others.

Get your classes to 80 so you have the full kit, and then put the effort of hotbar bloat removal, possibly into other classes. Some of them really need some simplification - but DNC is very sparse on the hotbars.

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You're right, it is presumptuous but presumptions are all we have at the moment and no one can really know how anyone would feel about the class and how boring or not boring it would be since the change does not exist and probably never will. I communicated that line poorly though. First, I did not mean the specific version of the word "you" but the general second person usage. I never meant to put words into your mouth specifically and I am sorry that it came off that way. Secondly, although I used the negative version of the phrase to address the negative in your comment, I was meaning to convey the opposite as well. That someone who enjoys and finds the dancer not boring currently would probably still find it enjoyable to play afterwards given how small of a gameplay change this really is.

Although I do not have any Lvl 80s on this account, I have played around on an account with lvl 80 characters (including a Dancer). I agree that there are other classes with much more bar bloat than this one. This just happened to be the class that as soon as I unlocked it for myself (which was before I played around with a lvl 80 version to see if I would still like it at max since I liked it at 60) I immediately felt like having a different physical button for every proc was unnecessary, and since I had the most experience with it and could talk to the points of the class more than other classes, it was the one I decided to use as the example. Some classes are definitely in more need of hotkey consolidation, but that doesn't change the fact that there about 30 action buttons that Dancer uses in combat, with 15+ being used frequently. A reduction of 5 would still make it easier to put all the frequently used ones in comfortable paces to reach easily.

Another upside to doing something like this I had not said before is that it frees up some buttons to allow for more abilities in the upcoming and future expansions without having to remove abilities entirely.

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Originally Posted by Sealish

this is more of a nice optical thing than an actual utility thing.

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For a lot of people, I'm sure it isn't. As rolled up combos are nice for you, "nice optical things" are nice for other people.

Also, stop acting like rolling Fan Dance III into Fan Dance I and II is a good idea. That's a proc for double weaving. and they have completely different attack types. Fan Dance II is centered around the Dancer, like your general AOE, Fan Dance I is single target ranged, and Fan Dance III is AOE radial around the target. Rolling them together creates issues with that, and also for people with high ping, you come into the Geirskogul/Nastrond thing where ping delay causes the action to roll back/not execute properly. For every skill consolidated like you suggest, this becomes an issue.

Most people with disabilities have workarounds already, and many of them play with controller instead. Most jobs in this game were already far more button intensive in years prior, and the game has already been heavily praised for being accessible. If anything, mapping all your skills to the same buttons could also be said to cause repetitive strain, not just on people but on the hardware too.

Again, what's nice for you personally isn't necessarily what is nice for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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You make a very good point about the ping and not one that I had thought of before. That alone is a good reason to not have this sort of change.

I figured that even with ping delay, the server would register the button press and associate it to whatever skill the button would be at the time and thus it wouldn’t be an issue, but if that isn’t how it works then yeah, it could be problematic.

Although I personally do not think that the colour coding of the base skills would be an issue, I did say that if the designers thought it was needed, it wouldn’t be hard to just change the colours of the AoE skill buttons. I was taking into consideration that even though the change did not seem important to me it may be important to others and I addressed that issue.

As for Fan Dance, the reason I included it is because it follows the same decision logic as the other procs. If you have Fan Dance 3 up, you never use Fan Dance 1 or 2. 1 is ranged single target with 150 potency, 2 is AoE with 100, and 3 is ranged 200 on a single with an AoE of 100. In all situations, 3 is better than 1 or 2. Adding to that, if you use 1 of 2 when you have a proc of 3 you may waste the proc of 3 all together if you re-proc it which would lead to lost potential potency. It is because there isn’t a situation where using 1 or 2 is better than 3 if you have 3 that I suggested it being another roll in skill.

This is kinda moot now though if the ping issue exists.

If anything, Dancer needs more buttons to push. You spend half of a fight hoping for procs so you're not just hitting a 1-2 combo the entire time.

It doesn't feel bloated imo, the amount of buttons fits perfectly with feeling just active enough but not overwhelming so, and leaves you slightly hoping/wanting for more buttons to light up when you're not getting as many procs.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Procs do not interrupt combos, so you could, for example, do something like this:

Cascade (no proc) > Fountain (proc Fountainfall) > Cascade (proc Reverse Cascade) > Reverse Cascade > Fountainfall > Fountain (proc Fountainfall)

which in terms of buttons looks something like this:
https://i.imgur.com/MXGCEhL.png


Here's what that same sequence would look like with button consolidation (excuse the numbers):
https://i.imgur.com/eHwXHJe.png

Knowing the devs, I'd wager they think this looks confusing and consequently consciously chose not to consolidate these buttons. I'm especially inclined to believe this once you take into account Flourish, which instantly procs all flourishes. In the unconsolidated version, it's much easier to tell whether or not you have any procs that will be wasted because there's a clear difference between dimmed buttons and active dashed outlined butons. In the consolidated version, you have to exert more cognitive effort because there are never dimmed buttons. Is the second dashed outlined button a proc or just the base second step in the combo? It would take longer to learn how to screen for Flourish with that system.

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And how would they transform into the four dance steps?

Dancer is already one of the jobs with the fewest buttons, and already consolidates four of it's skills into other buttons.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

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Originally Posted by Rongway

[illustrated post explaining why Rongway thinks this is a bad idea]

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And how would they transform into the four dance steps?

Dancer is already one of the jobs with the fewest buttons, and already consolidates four of it's skills into other buttons.

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As my post was arguing that "this is not a change that would be made", I'll decline to answer that question.

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Originally Posted by Sealish

Is there any actual downside to this that I am not seeing or have not already addressed?

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Yes. Besides the points I've already argued, unnecessary changes affect everyone by reducing dev resources available for other things. Time spent modifying DNC to eliminate these five buttons could be spent doing something that's actually needed instead, like consolidating truly mutually exclusive actions. There are a few lists floating around in General history, as we've had this discussion several times. Among them are SMN's trance/demi buttons, BLM's Between the Lines and Enochian-dependent spells, a few buttons in PLD, and GNB's cartridge combo. Those jobs suffer from actual button bloat, and it would be a waste of time to reduce DNC's already small button count instead.

You should play Warrior, you'll be begging for buttons to press.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

If anything, Dancer needs more buttons to push. You spend half of a fight hoping for procs so you're not just hitting a 1-2 combo the entire time.

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Pretty much why I don't like playing rng heavy classes like Bard or Dancer outside of a more casual setting.

It's super annoying for your dps to dip or to get a proc drought simply because bad luck

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

And how would they transform into the four dance steps?

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They could just consolidate the dance steps into 1 button I guess..?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

And how would they transform into the four dance steps?

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Well, Dancer would still have four buttons for weaponskills at the level they gain access to Standard Step and Technical Step: Two single target, and two aoe. It wouldn't be ridiculous to have the aoe buttons turn into Dance steps in place of the missing single target proc buttons.

Sounds like the opposite of QoL to me, DNC is already streamlined, and doesn’t suffer from button bloat, I don’t mind some button consolidation, I can think of a couple examples(other jobs) I’d like to see, but I’d prefer we don’t go the pvp route with the combo actions.