We didn't get a deep dungeon this expansion because of Bozja

How is this remotely OK? I'd take a deep dungeon over Bozja any day.

I wouldn't.

And as i see it something else is responsible for Deep dungeon/hildibrand quest (dying inside)/halloween event/whatever was scheduled for not being there.

Players: SE needs to experiment and take risks! They need to get out of their comfort zone! Stop being predictable!

SE: Okay.

Players: Wait no!

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Originally Posted by MPK

How is this remotely OK? I'd take a deep dungeon over Bozja any day.

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I take Bozja over deep dungeon unfortunately, I actually quite enjoy it since a lot of critical engagements are really interesting and challenging.
Are you hating Bozja because of the Red Comet? lol

Bozja would be better if they didn't choke the implementation 1v1 CEs. I'm neutral on the feeling. But this whole thing of giving flak for lack of risks, and then giving flak when they do is just... Comedic.

Bozja for me is proof, that if they so desired they could do some really creative things with the general open world. Here's to hoping they do with 6.0

From what I can dig up the production costs available to make a new Deep Dungeon were no longer available when they sat down to outline what they wanted to do with this expansion. Which then further ballooned when COVID happened and they couldn't focus on making the best use out of the resources they had available. Honestly had COVID not happened I imagine we'd have gotten something comparable and Bozja likely would have been less of a mess. However you can't exactly will away a highly contagious pandemic.

Source: https://dengekionline.com/articles/26085/

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――I would like to ask you some questions about future contents. Are there plans to implement “deep dungeon” content that was well received in 3.X and 4.X in patch 5.X?

Yoshida: I 'm sorry, because I'm making a lot of new content, the production cost to go here has disappeared. Actually, I wanted to have a place for leveling in case the next extension package came out ... Even though the project has been completed, the cost of making it is not currently available, so I'm thinking of taking a day off in the deep dungeon. I'm preparing for ranch-like play that I've been talking about for a long time, and since patch 5.3, I'm going to have a lot of content mainly for living.

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Note, this article was from February and SE had to go remote not long after that. We also know that recently SE's CEO came out and stated outright that COVID all but shut down their production pipeline on many games until they could adequately make their teams work remotely. So would I have liked for there to be a Deep Dungeon? Yes, I find them boring as hell and a waste of my personal time but I know a lot of people prefer them and more content is never a bad thing. That said I don't think it's fair to fully blame Bozja in it's current state because based on what we've seen Yoshi-P did have plans for a soft replacement. It just seems like it never came together due to the pandemic and what content they already had on the table also suffered for it.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I take Bozja over deep dungeon unfortunately, I actually quite enjoy it since a lot of critical engagements are really interesting and challenging.
Are you hating Bozja because of the Red Comet? lol

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Critical engagement mechanics are a complete joke and are on the same level as story mode trials. None of it engaging at all it's just mindless grinding. You think doing castrum over 100 times for a single piece of gear is engaging?

meha honestly I don't even like deep dungeons, they are kinda stupid honestly

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Originally Posted by MPK

Critical engagement mechanics are a complete joke and are on the same level as story mode trials. None of it engaging at all it's just mindless grinding. You think doing castrum over 100 times for a single piece of gear is engaging?

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How is this any different from doing the same Hunts/dungeons hundreds of time for tomes? And you don't do castrum 100 times for a single piece of gear. You do it once or twice for a single piece of gear, and maybe 20 or so times to upgrade it but that will likely be nerfed in the near future :) There's no need to upgrade it atm anyway

Eureka and Bozja are instances designed for different types of gamers, and I think they're a breath of fresh air. Yoshi P said (if the translation/summaries are accurate) that deep dungeons will be back next expansion.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Critical engagement mechanics are a complete joke and are on the same level as story mode trials. None of it engaging at all it's just mindless grinding. You think doing castrum over 100 times for a single piece of gear is engaging?

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No once force you to be there like no one force me to be in a deep dungeon as I don't like it
However, trying to blame Bozja over absence of Deep Dungeon is another

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Originally Posted by Rae88

How is this any different from doing the same Hunts/dungeons hundreds of time for tomes? And you don't do castrum 100 times for a single piece of gear. You do it once or twice for a single piece of gear, and maybe 20 or so times to upgrade it but that will likely be nerfed in the near future :) There's no need to upgrade it atm anyway

Eureka and Bozja are instances designed for different types of gamers, and I think they're a breath of fresh air. Yoshi P said (if the translation/summaries are accurate) that deep dungeons will be back next expansion.

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Those pieces of content aren't a breath of fresh air they're going back on years of progress the gaming industry has taken to move away from grindy content. SE is going backwards not forwards.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Those pieces of content aren't a breath of fresh air they're going back on years of progress the gaming industry has taken to move away from grindy content. SE is going backwards not forwards.

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The gaming industry is moving away from MMOs in general, so I guess that means to follow trends SE should make the game more like League

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Originally Posted by Rae88

The gaming industry is moving away from MMOs in general, so I guess that means to follow trends SE should make the game more like League

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They've taken a step in the right direction by removing all the trash pulls in their raids.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Those pieces of content aren't a breath of fresh air they're going back on years of progress the gaming industry has taken to move away from grindy content. SE is going backwards not forwards.

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I mean... To be entirely fair you are kind of complaining that one kind of grindy content has supplanted another kind of grindy content. While Bozja isn't my cup of tea necessarily I don't think we should pretend that the Deep Dungeons weren't equally as grind driven. The only difference between the two is how they deliver their particular grind experience and the 'extra' content that got tacked onto them to further stretch out their lives. With Deep Dungeons having Scoreboards and Savage 4 man parties, and Bozja having Castrum and it's eventually Savage counterpart.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Those pieces of content aren't a breath of fresh air they're going back on years of progress the gaming industry has taken to move away from grindy content. SE is going backwards not forwards.

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I mean Heaven on High, nor Palace of the dead are exactly engaging or miraculous pieces of content in itself. If Deep Dungeon has anything over Bozja it is the replay value you get from it. But let's not kid, it's not exactly engaging.

Doing it solo in PotD you have floors 1-150 which may as well be handouts if you're committed to it, beyond that you're looking at monsters just being harder-hitting, and some having an enrage, with some. If you want to make any progress after a wipe in PotD it's nothing but an extra 3-4 hours burned on doing unengaging floors. Heaven-on-High is better in this regard, but let's face it, if we had a different Deep Dungeon it only would've just been more of the same-old. Many hours of clearing square rooms, then going onto a square room to fight a boss who is no more difficult than any other dungeon boss, mechanically, that is.

I'm fine with it. Don't get me wrong. Bozja ain't perfect, but I'll take it over Deep Dungeons which are boring to me, aesthetically and gameplay-wise. Rooms look the same for the most part. Can't even properly zone out in Deep Dungeons, either, since you gotta have at least one functioning brain cell dedicated to being on the lookout or reacting to traps.

I cannot fathom how someone could possibly derive any sort of entertainment out of it, but hey, different strokes for different folks.

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Originally Posted by Enla

I mean... To be entirely fair you are kind of complaining that one kind of grindy content has supplanted another kind of grindy content. While Bozja isn't my cup of tea necessarily I don't think we should pretend that the Deep Dungeons weren't equally as grind driven. The only difference between the two is how they deliver their particular grind experience and the 'extra' content that got tacked onto them to further stretch out their lives. With Deep Dungeons having Scoreboards and Savage 4 man parties, and Bozja having Castrum and it's eventually Savage counterpart.

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Castrum `savage` mode is prob just going to be a complete joke like BA

On the other hand, it gave us a "not Eureka" way of getting a relic weapon again, so on balance I think we came out ahead.

I mean, what more could they do with Deep Dungeon? HoH wasn't all that different from PotD from what I can recall (defeat X amount of mobs on floor, get silver chests to upgrade, progress, beat boss on X0th floor). It introduced some new Pomanders, but...

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I mean, what more could they do with Deep Dungeon? HoH wasn't all that different from PotD from what I can recall (defeat X amount of mobs on floor, get silver chests to upgrade, progress, beat boss on X0th floor). It introduced some new Pomanders, but...

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Was nothing distinctive... New pomanders, magicite, otherwise no different. I suppose if they tried, they could perhaps try to introduce a dungeoneering concept, something similar to how it is in Runescape. Could incorporate DoH/L too. If they tried, but that's probably a monumental undertaking of sorts

I'm of the opinion that Deep Dungeon-style content is one of the largest factors behind the considerably diminished quality of the player base's understanding of, and performance in, the game. It allowed people to level without ever learning a rotation, how to manage CDs, Etc. because 90% of the instance was killing mobs in seconds. At least Bozjan requires players to focus on single bosses for several minutes at a time, and require them to also AoE for chunks of time as well.

If you do not agree, please look at Shiva Unreal and YoshiP commenting that it was "too difficult" in spite of being a simple, easy Extreme. To the point where it was considered the easiest extreme in ARR.

Deep dungeon not returning is the best combat content-related decision Square has made with this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

I'm of the opinion that Deep Dungeon-style content is one of the largest factors behind the considerably diminished quality of the player base's understanding of, and performance in, the game. It allowed people to level without ever learning a rotation, how to manage CDs, Etc. because 90% of the instance was killing mobs in seconds. At least Bozjan requires players to focus on single bosses for several minutes at a time, and require them to also AoE for chunks of time as well.

.........

Deep dungeon not returning is the best combat content-related decision Square has made with this expansion.

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All of this. Bozja is not only less mind numbingly boring, but also promotes actual practice and skill development. Deep Dungeons are a terrible leveling design/choice. I like the idea of making a pre made and trying to make it to the top with it getting progressively harder as you go, but for leveling to max level? Nah fam. Big yikes.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Castrum `savage` mode is prob just going to be a complete joke like BA

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Mechanically yes the fights are a joke as they aren't that much more difficult than a normal Alliance Raid. But getting everybody on the same page, the coordination required, the knowledge that 1 wipe = complete failure for the entire alliance? That's no joke, and is what makes BA hard.

I think deep dungeons are cool, but I think it's fine (and good) they experiment (some experiments wont work out- speaking generally, and naturally you hope they'll get good at it so the experiments that go wrong are easy to fix, and few go wrong), and as long as the content can have staying power in the future (nerfs that make sense when less and less people are doing it) then I don't see any concern (for myself) that they made this their sort of deep dungeon.

Breaking up the consistency is nice, plus I bet the team enjoys getting to try something different occasionally. A bit earlier in the game might have been nice since I already hit 80 on everything before this thing came out. . . but uh "not having COVID would have been nice" is a fair rebuttal lol.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

I'm of the opinion that Deep Dungeon-style content is one of the largest factors behind the considerably diminished quality of the player base's understanding of, and performance in, the game. It allowed people to level without ever learning a rotation, how to manage CDs, Etc. because 90% of the instance was killing mobs in seconds. At least Bozjan requires players to focus on single bosses for several minutes at a time, and require them to also AoE for chunks of time as well.

If you do not agree, please look at Shiva Unreal and YoshiP commenting that it was "too difficult" in spite of being a simple, easy Extreme. To the point where it was considered the easiest extreme in ARR.

Deep dungeon not returning is the best combat content-related decision Square has made with this expansion.

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Originally Posted by ThatGuySaysHi

All of this. Bozja is not only less mind numbingly boring, but also promotes actual practice and skill development. Deep Dungeons are a terrible leveling design/choice. I like the idea of making a pre made and trying to make it to the top with it getting progressively harder as you go, but for leveling to max level? Nah fam. Big yikes.

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How about going to farm mobs that are not part of CE just so your Lost Finds Cache is stocked with what you need to actually do stuff? Is that suddenly less boring?

Is running Castrum over and over for the hope to get augmentation chest (which only offers haste to your gear and nothing else) while losing mettle in the process for each death that much more engaging?

Is basically doing fate trains with a few bosses sprinkled in, that once you understand them are dirt simple to do, that much more fun?

Is getting denied to a duel boss because of rng OR dying at any point in that duel something that: Promotes a healthy and social cooperation environment amongst the others in the instance who weren't picked?

We get it, you have a raging hate-on for Bozja. It's a bloody good thing no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do it.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

How about going to farm mobs that are not part of CE just so your Lost Finds Cache is stocked with what you need to actually do stuff? Is that suddenly less boring?

Is running Castrum over and over for the hope to get augmentation chest (which only offers haste to your gear and nothing else) while losing mettle in the process for each death that much more engaging?

Is basically doing fate trains with a few bosses sprinkled in, that once you understand them are dirt simple to do, that much more fun?

Is getting denied to a duel boss because of rng OR dying at any point in that duel something that: Promotes a healthy and social cooperation environment amongst the others in the instance who weren't picked?

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Oh right. Because spamming Floors 51-60 is so much more fun.

200IQ reply.

After playing Bozja a bit more and getting a feel for the place, its not as bad as I originally thought and was quite enjoyable.

I like that you can't just roflstomp everything in there, including bosses and that its actually challenging.

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Originally Posted by KayRadley

We get it, you have a raging hate-on for Bozja. It's a bloody good thing no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do it.

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Two recollection relics so far.
Got caster bozja gear, almost finished on aiming.
Got the bozja earrings.
Got the orchestrion rolls from multiple runs of castrum.
Already got everything but the hairstyle from bozja clusters.
Already halfway done to finishing 'No Need for Triage III' which requires rezzing 500 people.

Tell me how much I hate bozja again.

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Originally Posted by ThatGuySaysHi

Oh right. Because spamming Floors 51-60 is so much more fun.

200IQ reply.

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And fate spamming is just so much more fun. Your point?

Someone need Red Comet injection

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Originally Posted by Ashpd

Someone need Red Comet injection

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You activated my trap card: Lost Reflect.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

And fate spamming is just so much more fun. Your point?

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My point is with my original statement, Bozja has been great for fostering and nurturing a competent player base, and helping us level alt classes, all while aslo giving us Relic weapons. We don't need a Deep Dungeon because Bozja *is* the deep dungeon with more bells and whistles.

The last two Deep Dungeons have been copy and pastes of each other with a handful of room and monster variations, most of which melt until the last quarter of the tower/dungeon. You're saying that a Third one would be more fun than getting a area that offers multiple World Boss Encounters, and a Dungeon that's a somewhat more difficult than the 24-Man Raids. Those, combined with the FATEs, are on par if not better for Leveling than any Deep Dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

How about going to farm mobs that are not part of CE just so your Lost Finds Cache is stocked with what you need to actually do stuff? Is that suddenly less boring?

Is running Castrum over and over for the hope to get augmentation chest (which only offers haste to your gear and nothing else) while losing mettle in the process for each death that much more engaging?

Is basically doing fate trains with a few bosses sprinkled in, that once you understand them are dirt simple to do, that much more fun?

Is getting denied to a duel boss because of rng OR dying at any point in that duel something that: Promotes a healthy and social cooperation environment amongst the others in the instance who weren't picked?

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You've missed my point entirely. It isn't about how "fun" the content is. It's about how engaging the content is and how it forces the player to play the game. Compare to HoH/DD, which are a set of 10 second engagements for most players who run the content, it's pretty definitive that, for the purpose of player improvement and development, Bozjan is a much healthier option than HoH/DD.

Regardless of how fun/engaging you feel the content is, or your personal feelings towards the content, it's very clear which is the better leveling option for the overall health of the playerbase and the game.

To put it simply, HoH/DD encounters simply do not last long enough for good habits to be formed. Everything on Bozjan, however, typically last long enough to allow for one to get a grasp on Single Target/AoE rotations. Even farming Fragments/Clusters can take a bit of time, and fast to complete fates quickly scale to last long enough. CEs also allow most players a good few minutes to practice their Single Target rotations, and Castrum allows for solid practice in Multi-Target situations as well.

Again, it isn't about the fun factor or if one is the lesser of 2 evils (because both aren't the best). It's about allowing people who play the game to learn how to play it, even at a basic level. This is something that HoH/DD fails to do at even the most basic levels.

Ehh, it's probably a good thing we didn't get a new deep dungeon. It'll make the third one we get feel fresh by the time we do get it, maybe sometime in 7.0 :P

i like deep dungeons but Potd and HoH are enough
Bozja is fine replacement for leveling and its not bad from what i heard
too bad these always come late so all my jobs are capped anyway same goes with ishagrd/Diadem and DoH/L

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Originally Posted by ThatGuySaysHi

My point is with my original statement, Bozja has been great for fostering and nurturing a competent player base, and helping us level alt classes, all while aslo giving us Relic weapons. We don't need a Deep Dungeon because Bozja *is* the deep dungeon with more bells and whistles.

The last two Deep Dungeons have been copy and pastes of each other with a handful of room and monster variations, most of which melt until the last quarter of the tower/dungeon. You're saying that a Third one would be more fun than getting a area that offers multiple World Boss Encounters, and a Dungeon that's a somewhat more difficult than the 24-Man Raids. Those, combined with the FATEs, are on par if not better for Leveling than any Deep Dungeon.

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To level an alt class it needs to be 71 min. So if you start fresh with anything, you can't touch bozja with that class until you reach the min level for it. Once inside, you would want to get earrings from it (if you don't have the preorder from shadowbringers) otherwise its a slower leveling pace. And the fastest way to do that is bring at least a level 71 tank with an essence of the irregular, a lost reflect, and taking off all your gear so you deal more reflected damage back at sprites.

Which to get the Lost Reflects and Essence of the Irregulars requires farming mobs. Once you turned in 1000 appraised items you get the earrings that makes leveling 10% faster while also stocking up your Lost Cache with potions, phoenix downs, lost reflects, auto items (reraise/potion/ether).

And your encouraged to farm items instead of doing CE (including Castrum) anyway if you want things like Essence of the Ordained (or Profane), Lost Death, Lost Focus, Lost Slash, etc. Which if doing a bunch of prep work sounds familiar to Eureka, its not too far off.

As for the Castrum itself, most of the difficulty behind castrum is figuring out who goes top or bottom, then who goes where to free the 6 prisoners, then figuring out who is the 8-man party that goes fight the mini-boss. Its about as hard as normal Alexander otherwise, well except for Refurbisher honestly from the Alexander raid as if you don't have everyone understanding how to handle the Full-Metal Faust, then prepare for many wipes.

I was having fun with Bozja at first, but now I can't help but notice there is a very weird aversion to making parties inside it unless you want to do Castrum.

I want to get all of the Field Notes now that I'm Rank 15, but I might as well be the only person in the instance when I ask for a party. And that really sucks when Skirmishes scale to the number of people who do them, making them difficult to solo and basically requiring me to compete with full parties to get Gold rank. It hasn't been too bad, I'll admit, but it's a pain in the butt needing to race to a Skirmish before it's killed and do enough damage to it to get the Rank I need before larger groups kill it, only to wind up being disappointed by the abysmal drop rate that follows. I can't tell you how many times I've had to beat on Dyunbu and Sartauvoir by now.

They're just lore notes about the characters; why is the drop rate equivalent to the Gabriel mount?

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

To level an alt class it needs to be 71 min. So if you start fresh with anything, you can't touch bozja with that class until you reach the min level for it. Once inside, you would want to get earrings from it (if you don't have the preorder from shadowbringers) otherwise its a slower leveling pace. And the fastest way to do that is bring at least a level 71 tank with an essence of the irregular, a lost reflect, and taking off all your gear so you deal more reflected damage back at sprites.

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The min level for it is just like the min lvl for HoH, but I don't know why you're bringing that up when you're apparently fine with HoH having it. HoH is also a slower leveling pace without the proper earrings, so again, why are you bringing that up? Fastest doesn't always mean most fun. The best way to level in PotD was to spam floors 51-60, and that was boring as hell.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Which to get the Lost Reflects and Essence of the Irregulars requires farming mobs. Once you turned in 1000 appraised items you get the earrings that makes leveling 10% faster while also stocking up your Lost Cache with potions, phoenix downs, lost reflects, auto items (reraise/potion/ether).

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You can buy fragments from the market board, for really cheap I may add. Or you can exchange 1 Bozjan Cluster for 5 or 4 forgotten fragments.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

And your encouraged to farm items instead of doing CE (including Castrum) anyway if you want things like Essence of the Ordained (or Profane), Lost Death, Lost Focus, Lost Slash, etc. Which if doing a bunch of prep work sounds familiar to Eureka, its not too far off.

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All you really need is an Essence of the Bloodsucker/Beast/Templar and you're good to go for a lot of the place, including Castrum, since they'll help you survive easily. You're not really expected to bring anything if you're new. Lost Death isn't required for Castrum, it just makes saving the prisoners easier and faster due to the possibility of 1-shotting the guards/executioners. The prep work for Castrum is significantly less than Baldesian Arsenal as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

You've missed my point entirely. It isn't about how "fun" the content is. It's about how engaging the content is and how it forces the player to play the game. Compare to HoH/DD, which are a set of 10 second engagements for most players who run the content, it's pretty definitive that, for the purpose of player improvement and development, Bozjan is a much healthier option than HoH/DD.

Regardless of how fun/engaging you feel the content is, or your personal feelings towards the content, it's very clear which is the better leveling option for the overall health of the playerbase and the game.

To put it simply, HoH/DD encounters simply do not last long enough for good habits to be formed. Everything on Bozjan, however, typically last long enough to allow for one to get a grasp on Single Target/AoE rotations. Even farming Fragments/Clusters can take a bit of time, and fast to complete fates quickly scale to last long enough. CEs also allow most players a good few minutes to practice their Single Target rotations, and Castrum allows for solid practice in Multi-Target situations as well.

Again, it isn't about the fun factor or if one is the lesser of 2 evils (because both aren't the best). It's about allowing people who play the game to learn how to play it, even at a basic level. This is something that HoH/DD fails to do at even the most basic levels.

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Dunno about you, but when I think engaging, I think of content I want to do for fun, even if its on a checklist. The 'means' if you will. Not because I simply want to get better as the primary reason as getting better is sort of the 'ends' to the 'means' of enjoying that content. If I didn't find it 'fun' I wouldn't be finding it that 'engaging' to do and would do something else instead.

Also, if its to get people to learn how to play at a basic level for their class while utilizing single target rotations and multi-target, isn't that what Trusts do while also providing a way to level your alts while in the 71-80 range?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The min level for it is just like the min lvl for HoH, but I don't know why you're bringing that up when you're apparently fine with HoH having it. HoH is also a slower leveling pace without the proper earrings, so again, why are you bringing that up? Fastest doesn't always mean most fun. The best way to level in PotD was to spam floors 51-60, and that was boring as hell.

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I bring it up as lets say you unlock any class today, how long does it take you to level that class from either level 1, 30, 50, or 60 to 71 so you can access the content to help level your alts? Sure it might seem like a no brainer if you already have your classes leveled or mostly leveled, but for newcomers the real alternative is roulettes.

With bringing up the earrings, you want even the brand-new ring if you are trying to level a class 1-30.

Sure the fast method isn't always the fun method, but have you grinded blue mage levels by yourself? I have, its absolutely more boring than doing even PotD or HoH. Its much more fun when you have someone else around.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You can buy fragments from the market board, for really cheap I may add. Or you can exchange 1 Bozjan Cluster for 5 or 4 forgotten fragments.

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Really cheap huh? So spending around 47,000 to 48,000 gil for a stack of 35 Fragments of Preperation on the marketboard (1200ish gil for each fragment w/o tax) is cheaper than just grouping up Tier 5 Lightning Sprites (or Tier 4 Water Sprites) over in the southern part of the map, and getting like 40 Fragments with Lightning or 30 with Water per pull? Oh and in general I am not just poking at Preparation on Mateus, the fragments in general are easily in the 800-6000 gil range per fragment here. Better off just saving up to buy a gabriel tbh if your gonna throw easily around a million gil minimum at the market board for earrings at least here on Mateus. Who knows, might be cheaper on another world but its still just cheaper and faster to do it yourself if you come prepared.

EDITED: It literally is 1000 to 2000 gil per fragment of preparation on all of crystal (w/o tax). And this is the easiest to farm fragment when your getting 30-40 of these. So we are looking at spending 1 million to 2 million (w/o tax) gil on a pair of earrings. Nevermind the others which do actually run the gambit for higher costs like 4000 or 6000 gil per fragment.