Dancer 6.0 Speculation

So outside of the physical ranged DPS damage as a whole being very low, Dancer is largely in an amazing spot with very few areas to complain about for those of us who enjoy the playstyle. There are a few areas that could use some improvement of course, like a way to extend the duration of Flourish buffs so that there's no fear of losing them during our burst window if we get too many Sabre Dance, but otherwise it doesn't feel like we need any major change to what we already have.

The question I have is where could we expand?

I have a strong feeling we'll be getting some kind of single target Sabre Dancer (Dancer Xenoglossy), but what about new elements toward gameplay?

Something I have been thinking about for aesthetics would be something like a Phoenix Dance that upgrades our Fan Dances from peacock feathers into phoenix feathers. I think the fiery dancer would be a cool aesthetic to have. As far as mechanics, I'd like to see that work in a way to give us a phase of guaranteed feather procs. Specifically, I'd like to see this be something we're doing halfway between one Technical Step and the next.

As it stands, we have a very heavy burst window every 2 minutes, but inbetween that can be a little slow at times, especially if you get some bad RNG with procs. Having some kind of mini burst that can somehow trigger between Technical Steps would feel better, I think, then just adding more to technical step burst windows, but that's just my opinion.

I'm curious what other dancers are interested in seeing happen with our kit.

I'd like to see Flourish be a 30 second cooldown.

Now I know what you're thinking. "We're already running into situations where we have to drop procs and you want more procs?" Yes I do.

The reasoning is that I think dancer is one of those jobs, much like other RNG jobs, focused on making right decisions, given the circumstances. One of the main complaint's I have heard about dancer is that outside of the 2 min Technical Finish burst window, there's a lot of 1/2 and sometimes only 1/2 if you get unlucky. Bringing Flourish to 30 seconds would mean that at most, you'd have 4 GCDs of downtime between procs (really just 2 GCDs because standard takes 2 GCDs to use). What this would mean gameplay wise is, you'd certainly always have procs and never really dabble in the combo system unless you get very unlucky with Esprit and even then, you won't be unlucky for long. RNG jobs work well when they can play by quantity to avoid heavy swings towards good or bad RNG, allowing them to average out. So the more procs you can throw, the more you can average out their performance without having massive swings between runs.

This would also put certain emphasis on decision making which is a fun part of current dancer, but is only felt currently, when you get too lucky. For example, with reduced Flourish CD, you might end up in a situation where you might often end up in a situation where you would want to drop procs to use Saber Dance but also end up in situations where you'd want to stay capped on Esprit and get finish using all procs. It also allows for some flexibility with Flourish instead of it being uniquely a 1 minute CD.

Furthermore, it would also add some more complexity into dancer naturally, as you now have twice as many AoE procs to unload every minute than before and that means having to plan its usages or perhaps forgo them for Sabers.

Just this one change would add quite a bit of depth to dancer without making it any harder to pickup, which I think is a good thing.

Aside from that a minor change would be making it so Standard and Tech Finishes either never Crit or Direct Hit, or always do. Having such a high potency hit Direct Hit Crit is equivalent to another use and causes too much variability and thus makes it hard to balance. Other jobs like PLD suffer from this with Confiteor but while the number of jobs are few, the negative effect is still too much.

There's also removing the improv requirement of needing people, because it's silly.

All in all, I'm unsure what they can do to dancer after these proposed changes. The job is complete for the most part as is. I know there's a suggestion to make Saber Dance extend procs, but I feel like that would make dancer too simple. I think having to make a decision is what makes dancer nuanced versus straightforward.

I would like to see a higher proc rate on four fold feathers so the job can be a bit busier in its down time between its major burst phases. Mobility tax has always been a poor execuse for ranged DPS having such low damage, and ranged DPS should be doing much closer to comparable DPS to the other jobs. The way you make it fair is you make them press far more buttons per minute and have to play at a higher tempo than any other job since they are able to keep their rotation going no matter what (Machinist is making good on this and while Bard took a hit on it's APM this expansion it's still one of the higher ones). I would also like to see a third step to the proc of the combo's, one ability that you can proc off either Fountainfall or Reverse Cascade, and if you manage to get that proc, a hit on the boss guarantees a Fourfold Feather. A similar third step to the AOE's would be nice too.

If not a higher proc rate on the feathers then I would mimic Rai's call for a lower cool down timer on Flourish, just something so that the peaks and valleys between Dancers fast and slow moments are so insanely steep. A change to the way Improv gets Espirit is of course still absolutely necessary as it has been since day one. I also know others would disagree but I'd like a single Dot to manage as well, I don't want to turn it into Bard or Summoner, but to me jobs miss out on something without a dot to manage. I really miss lead shot on Mch. Even if it's something longer and simple to put on like Higanbana for Samurai. Outside of that nothing to major Dancer has a very strong concept for a job, much like Red Mage, the foundation is perfectly set, now they just need to give it a few things to really allow for a skilled player to flex their muscles on the job.

I like another dance, a 3 step one that does huge burst dmg like the others but causes debuffs to go on anything hit, I'd think 10% reduction in damage dealt, be on a 180s cd so keeps busy work as low as possible after opener to every 6 mins in a fight.

Sabre Dance to be ogcd.

Closed position available at level 50 at the latest(love if level 15 but May just be even more overkill)

Personally I'd like to lean more on dancer having debuffs but not DoTs going forward I think as a buffer we are very solid

Obviously anything added to dancer would result in Brd and Mch getting an equivalent type of skill or flat out more damage as compensation.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I like another dance, a 3 step one that does huge burst dmg like the others but causes debuffs to go on anything hit, I'd think 10% reduction in damage dealt, be on a 180s cd so keeps busy work as low as possible after opener to every 6 mins in a fight.

Sabre Dance to be ogcd.

Closed position available at level 50 at the latest(love if level 15 but May just be even more overkill)

Personally I'd like to lean more on dancer having debuffs but not DoTs going forward I think as a buffer we are very solid

Obviously anything added to dancer would result in Brd and Mch getting an equivalent type of skill or flat out more damage as compensation.

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Just wanted to mention any new dance would have to have an even number of steps because of the nature of our GCD, if it's an odd number we'll start clipping into it.

Also Saber Dance being a GCD forces choice and that's a good thing. It's also nice because as a GCD you can use it as filler to prevent procs from proccing before using Flourish.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

I would like to see a higher proc rate on four fold feathers so the job can be a bit busier in its down time between its major burst phases. Mobility tax has always been a poor execuse for ranged DPS having such low damage, and ranged DPS should be doing much closer to comparable DPS to the other jobs. The way you make it fair is you make them press far more buttons per minute and have to play at a higher tempo than any other job since they are able to keep their rotation going no matter what (Machinist is making good on this and while Bard took a hit on it's APM this expansion it's still one of the higher ones). I would also like to see a third step to the proc of the combo's, one ability that you can proc off either Fountainfall or Reverse Cascade, and if you manage to get that proc, a hit on the boss guarantees a Fourfold Feather. A similar third step to the AOE's would be nice too.

If not a higher proc rate on the feathers then I would mimic Rai's call for a lower cool down timer on Flourish, just something so that the peaks and valleys between Dancers fast and slow moments are so insanely steep. A change to the way Improv gets Espirit is of course still absolutely necessary as it has been since day one. I also know others would disagree but I'd like a single Dot to manage as well, I don't want to turn it into Bard or Summoner, but to me jobs miss out on something without a dot to manage. I really miss lead shot on Mch. Even if it's something longer and simple to put on like Higanbana for Samurai. Outside of that nothing to major Dancer has a very strong concept for a job, much like Red Mage, the foundation is perfectly set, now they just need to give it a few things to really allow for a skilled player to flex their muscles on the job.

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Given how feathers are lower potency, I think the proc rates are okay? Assuming the base procs themselves are plentiful which is the aim I had with 30 second Flourish. Just a simple change like that would really add more complexity that naturally flows into the job and make it busier but not necessarily busy for the sake of being busy.

I'm unsure on the DoT bit since I think dancer as is flows nicely without one. Reason MCH lost it was because there was little depth with a fire and forget 60 second DoT. With SAM you had setup and you couldn't freely put up your DoT so you had to think ahead about it, so it had a reason to exist. Even jobs like NIN it's also funnily enough fire and forget and kind of lame. I think the better way of adding complexity is to just let us flex our mobility that we have with En Avant and require us to constantly jump back and forth between melee range and not which reduced Flourish accomplishes with more frequent AoE procs.

(I swear I'm not trying to sell the Flourish idea but please, I don't want to go more than 30 seconds with no procs again)

Another thing I've been thinking about is Improvisation. As it stands, it kinda feels like an empty skill. It's not useless per say, but it's a totally unnecessary button. We dancers don't need some kind of phase transition button since we don't manage some kind of important buff prone to falling off. I suppose you could maybe make an argument for Standard Finish, Esprit, and Technical Finish. Maybe Improvisation could put those buffs on all party members in range on hold during a transition, which could be very useful, but I also don't think that's where we really need to go as Dancers, not to mention it could possibly be exploitable with certain timings.

So when I think of the term "Improvisation," what I think of is breaking choreography and improvising based on the circumstances, and something that could be interesting would be to have Improvisation be something that could replace your usage of Standard Finish after beginning Standard Step. Functionally, it would do the same damage, however instead of following the Simon Says minigame, you improvise and do a different combination to yield a different effect for you and your Dance Partner.

This concept would make Improvisation a bit similar to Mudras, but I think it would be best to keep it simple--The first step doesn't matter, but the second step will determine one of 4 effects you'll get instead of the normal Standard Step and Esprit. This wouldn't be bad thing for DPS necessarily because those buffs last for 60 seconds, and we use Standard Step on CD as dancers. There might be a slight issue with Standard Step and Esprit dropping off briefly before the next Standard Step after, but we could also make Improvisation extend those effects by 5-10 seconds for smoothness.

As for the effects themselves, I'm thinking that these would be forms of utility designed when something bad happens, much like why a real Dancer would feel the need to improvise. Here are some ideas.
If your second step was...
Emboite (Red) - You perform Shield Improvisation, decreasing the damage taken by yourself and your dance partner by 20% for 10 seconds
Entrechat (Blue) - You Perform Mana Improvisation, restoring 1000 MP to you and your dance partner
Jete (Green) - You Perform Curing Improvisation, healing you and your dance partner with 400 potency heal
Pirouette (Yellow) - You Perform Cleansing Improvisation, removing a debuff from you and your dance partner

It doesn't have to be this literally, but something like this would I think add a cool layer of complexity and make the Standard Finish and Esprit buff durations actually matter.

Espirit as a whole needs fleshing out I think. It currently has an AOE dump, so it's open to gain a Single Target dump and other actions on longer cooldowns that are more than just filler.

Definitely gotta do something MORE with esprit. Aside from that, perhaps a new dance or something along those lines?
I feel kinda lukewarm on Improvisation. I generally don't like skills that require you to just stand in place and do nothing for X seconds. I LIKE the animation, but being stuck there kinda takes away from the overall feel of dancer.

That said, I... don't really see them changing a whole lot about dancer. Much like red mage, I felt like this was a job that was easy to pick up and play right out the gate, and so I don't really think it'll get anything too out there as far as changes go.

On how DNC works right now, my biggest gripe is having to constantly pool 3 feathers for the next burst phase... I literally have to rely on just 1-point combo system. For that regard, I really wish Flourish would guarantee feathers from its proc'd abilities. This way, you would have a much more flexible Feather usage during your regular phases, and as the TS phase approaches, you'd be able to use Flourish beforehand to 100% fish for feathers you miss.

Another thing is Fan Dance III. I really think that ability stands in a really weird spot. I know it was probably designed to be that bonus feeling, but being the "proc of the proc" feels weirdly unreliable. I don't really have a suggestion for this, just this personal remark.

Improvisation still is a really bad ability. The healing bonus is not impactful, since there is a lot of overhealing. The esprit gains are not big enough to warranty such a long time doing nothing... There are only a couple of situations where you can do this. A fix would be either change the healing bonus to something more useful for everyone like crit or dh AND buff the esprit meter gains.

My expectations for DNC 6.0:
Improved Curing Waltz trait that makes it leave a regen effect on you and your partner;
Emperor's New Chakrams, an invisible weapon for DNC
An actual Bladed Fan as a weapon for DNC (this could happen anytime now tbh)

Three elemental dances in the Astral aspects: Fire, Lightning and Wind . They would be OGCD buttons that are available on your standard or technical step phases and share a cooldown. They add a special effect (and added visuals) to your combo buttons and to your dance partner's attacks:
Burning Polka - Each attack leaves a burning dot that can be stacked.
Bolero of Wind - Increase on movement speed and Direct Hit.
Levin Swing - Each attack can cause paralysis and increases Determination.

Also:
- Saber Dance changed to being a single target Esprit spender
- Pirouette, new weaponskill meant to be a multi-target Esprit spender

Definitely would be nice to see more options behind Esprit, but the trick ultimately is about making something that has a viable use. We're a pretty aggressive community of min/maxers when it comes to end game content, so we would need some kind of damage to come out of Esprit that wouldn't just usurp Sabre Dance. If I'm getting "Not Sabre Dance," then what exactly is going to encourage me to use that and Sabre Dance at different points in the fight. It can be tricky to get the right balance between the actions, and if the option option isn't damage, it would need to have some pretty powerful form of utility that would outperform the Sabre Dance.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Definitely would be nice to see more options behind Esprit, but the trick ultimately is about making something that has a viable use. We're a pretty aggressive community of min/maxers when it comes to end game content, so we would need some kind of damage to come out of Esprit that wouldn't just usurp Sabre Dance. If I'm getting "Not Sabre Dance," then what exactly is going to encourage me to use that and Sabre Dance at different points in the fight. It can be tricky to get the right balance between the actions, and if the option option isn't damage, it would need to have some pretty powerful form of utility that would outperform the Sabre Dance.

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Single target Sabre Dance essentially 800 potency 50 espirit nuke and viola Sabre is for 2 or more targets , new skill is for single target bosses, if give new skill a buff where next Sabre is 850 potency base for 1st target that lasts 60s then both skills will be used regularly in a raid fight.

Playing Dancer It feels too easy, givin the room for error is way to large with the dance steps and the finish buff being 60 second. Its also boring as hell for many many levels until you get flourish or Technic step. But Supporting for it is fun and unique choosing a Mate for close position and raining on all ur support onto them with Finish, Devilment, waltz ect

My issues with Dancer as not only its difficulty as a mindless job but gives me MCH 4.0 Flashbacks of spamming 1 attack praying for RNG to give u a proc, While MCH has 2 skills at that time that guaranteed it being reload (15) and quick reload (30) DNC has only flourish a 60 second CD which results in...well i hope ur a fan of ciara cuz youll do alot of 1-2 Step until flourish procs

DNC desperately needs a other layer of depth, appreciate it if its sooner in the progression rather than 81+ as the core of DNC doesnt change much if at all for 10 levels at a time. But a good start is to do something with Bland ass Shield samba, aka the ranged role action.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Playing Dancer It feels too easy, givin the room for error is way to large with the dance steps and the finish buff being 60 second. Its also boring as hell for many many levels until you get flourish or Technic step. But Supporting for it is fun and unique choosing a Mate for close position and raining on all ur support onto them with Finish, Devilment, waltz ect

My issues with Dancer as not only its difficulty as a mindless job but gives me MCH 4.0 Flashbacks of spamming 1 attack praying for RNG to give u a proc, While MCH has 2 skills at that time that guaranteed it being reload (15) and quick reload (30) DNC has only flourish a 60 second CD which results in...well i hope ur a fan of ciara cuz youll do alot of 1-2 Step until flourish procs

DNC desperately needs a other layer of depth, appreciate it if its sooner in the progression rather than 81+ as the core of DNC doesnt change much if at all for 10 levels at a time. But a good start is to do something with Bland ass Shield samba, aka the ranged role action.

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There is depth for Dancer, about on par, if not more than the other ranged in optimized play. There's a lot of nuance, much like other jobs, but it is definitely an easy job to pickup. The problem is, it's also RNG dependent, so even if you do everything right, having better RNG will win, always, unless you play right AND have better RNG.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

There is depth for Dancer, about on par, if not more than the other ranged in optimized play. There's a lot of nuance, much like other jobs, but it is definitely an easy job to pickup. The problem is, it's also RNG dependent, so even if you do everything right, having better RNG will win, always, unless you play right AND have better RNG.

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I wouldnt say its on par with BRD and saying it has more depth than MCH really isnt saying much. But what are these nuances? Ive leveled my alt to 80 as DNC and it feels very one note even more so if your running solo supporting as a DNC is neat which puts it above BRD automatic nature

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I wouldnt say its on par with BRD and saying it has more depth than MCH really isnt saying much. But what are these nuances? Ive leveled my alt to 80 as DNC and it feels very one note even more so if your running solo supporting as a DNC is neat which puts it above BRD automatic nature

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Most of it, naturally, comes with optimizations with your fellow party members. Syncing your buffs up with your partner to the GCD, dumping resources into raid buffs, prioritizing the right GCD (whether saber, proc, combo), weaving improv, maximizing curing on party, and so on. It shares a bit with BRD but for the most part BRD can ignore what other people are doing and just focus on proc RNG while rotating songs, which is similar to standard refreshes. However, since BRD is an 80 job and RNG on when it has resources it kinda ignores the party and does its own thing which takes away from the depth. MCH of course falls into that trap but it also doesn't help that it's a simple combo system so no variation whatsoever.

DNC has a high skill floor so it's hard to really do terrible on dancer and playing with parties that don't optimize means it can feel very boring, especially if there are no other buff jobs to throw resources into. But start bringing in optimized groups and buff jobs and all of a sudden DNC becomes a lot more fun with increased decision making and depth. On average, this would put it about on par imo, but with potential to have more depth the more you optimize.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

Most of it, naturally, comes with optimizations with your fellow party members. Syncing your buffs up with your partner to the GCD, dumping resources into raid buffs, prioritizing the right GCD (whether saber, proc, combo), weaving improv, maximizing curing on party, and so on. It shares a bit with BRD but for the most part BRD can ignore what other people are doing and just focus on proc RNG while rotating songs, which is similar to standard refreshes. However, since BRD is an 80 job and RNG on when it has resources it kinda ignores the party and does its own thing which takes away from the depth. MCH of course falls into that trap but it also doesn't help that it's a simple combo system so no variation whatsoever.

DNC has a high skill floor so it's hard to really do terrible on dancer and playing with parties that don't optimize means it can feel very boring, especially if there are no other buff jobs to throw resources into. But start bringing in optimized groups and buff jobs and all of a sudden DNC becomes a lot more fun with increased decision making and depth. On average, this would put it about on par imo, but with potential to have more depth the more you optimize.

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....I feel your drawing straws on most of this, i mean maximixing curing on party? DNC isnt a healer. But ill give you the Optimizing part if abit token as ive never optimized but also never really had issues with the content DPS wise but i dont think thats dancer fault.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

....I feel your drawing straws on most of this, i mean maximixing curing on party? DNC isnt a healer. But ill give you the Optimizing part if abit token as ive never optimized but also never really had issues with the content DPS wise but i dont think thats dancer fault.

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If it saves a healer a GCD, then it's a gain. In high end optimizations, curing optimization is planned to the point that not using it will wipe the party. While DNC isn't a healer, it still has healing and mitigation tools like one and should use it. But like I said, if the group isn't optimizing, then it doesn't matter and the depth vanishes.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

If it saves a healer a GCD, then it's a gain. In high end optimizations, curing optimization is planned to the point that not using it will wipe the party. While DNC isn't a healer, it still has healing and mitigation tools like one and should use it. But like I said, if the group isn't optimizing, then it doesn't matter and the depth vanishes.

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If this nuance is only found in the hardest of content and not basic performance, its token which again I dont think its DNC fault but "In high end blah blah blah" thiers 4 maybe 5 instances where that applies everything else its a non issue or a non nuance. Even said that this is one skill one 60 second skill. I remain unconvinced of DNC depth and if "high end optimizing" is a must to see it shine

I don't really see the need for a single target Saber Dance. In the interest of saving on button bloat I'd rather see Saber Dance have a higher potency if no other targets are hit by it.

More Esprit usage would be nice. Maybe a move inspired by Quick/Box/Stutter Steps in FFXI could use it. 180s recast that applies a debuff to the enemy. Maybe it could even start at an earlier level and start the Esprit part of the job earlier than 80 - perhaps right when you can use Closed Position or shortly thereafter. It could apply a Blind effect and later gain a trait that adds increased damage taken similar to Trick/Chain - maybe a mid-way point could add a Slow effect. Or maybe it could echo an old dancer move in the series and randomly apply Blind or Slow and maybe even the increased damage taken could be random between a flat damage taken boost, a crit rate boost, or a direct rate boost once it's added via trait.

Dancers always had some form of debuffing which is absent in XIV. It would be nice to see that present hete even if it's nothing major (like Blind/Slow).

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Originally Posted by Jirah

If this nuance is only found in the hardest of content and not basic performance, its token which again I dont think its DNC fault but "In high end blah blah blah" thiers 4 maybe 5 instances where that applies everything else its a non issue or a non nuance. Even said that this is one skill one 60 second skill. I remain unconvinced of DNC depth and if "high end optimizing" is a must to see it shine

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Basic performance of every job lacks nuance. If you don't optimize your job, then every job in the game is brain dead easy. Of the Physical Ranged, DNC is the easiest to pickup, assuming you are comfortable with RNG, but that varies per person. In terms of optimization, with DNC and BRD there's more to optimize than say MCH and with DNC a little moreso than BRD. Until you get to that level of play, none of the physical ranged are going to have much depth.

It's fine if you remain unconvinced, but if you don't push your job to the limit or put it in hard content, then you won't get the most out of it and DNC is one of those jobs that shines at the top end and not so much at the casual/midcore end.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

I don't really see the need for a single target Saber Dance. In the interest of saving on button bloat I'd rather see Saber Dance have a higher potency if no other targets are hit by it.

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To be fair, Dancer doesn't have that many buttons compared to other jobs. So we can afford to have another Esprit spender button, if not Saber. Personally, I do agree with you that, I think Saber is fine as is, not because of potential button bloat but because it lends itself to choice between Saber and Procs.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

....I feel your drawing straws on most of this, i mean maximixing curing on party? DNC isnt a healer. But ill give you the Optimizing part if abit token as ive never optimized but also never really had issues with the content DPS wise but i dont think thats dancer fault.

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Working in TEA ATM, we actually have dps stack properly after alpha and beta (and trine obviously ) to save a gcd for the whm. Essentially a 900 extra potency

Also VERY useful at the end of p3 when we move from CC to BJ.

It isn't a healer. But it is a very appreciable heal when you can exploit it. Especially with such a low CD.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Working in TEA ATM, we actually have dps stack properly after alpha and beta (and trine obviously ) to save a gcd for the whm. Essentially a 900 extra potency

Also VERY useful at the end of p3 when we move from CC to BJ.

It isn't a healer. But it is a very appreciable heal when you can exploit it. Especially with such a low CD.

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I think eveyone misread my critique, CW is useful in certain situations but the practice of hitting it every 60 seconds doesnt make DNC complex. DNC needs somthing and if it gets treated like RDM in SHB itll begin to stagnate and people will be upset thier job has no new toys to use

Oh, also another thing that I would really appreciate was if Standard Step became an OGCD skill... At least would be - something - to weave in during the boring feather downtime parts, that happens after the TS phases when you're not lucky enough to get 3 feathers ASAP.

Dancer needs some changes like:

- improvisation is just baaad, almost never a spot to use it, cant move, loads slow, requires a lot of teamates near us. Could be a self buff or add new feature of loading feathers
- rngs procs needs to go up or at least make it so that next round of the skill will increase the rng procentage so if we fail to get a proc/feather next skill will have increased by 10-15% chance to get it and so on till 100%
- potencies needs to go up, at least on the feathers (like fan3) that are covered in huge pile of RNG, so if we are lucky and get it then be worth it.
- sabre dance being just a esprit dump is just bad...we need more skills we can use our esprit on:
* they should add a single target attack with potency of 800-850 that costs 50esprit
* if our damage is the lowest from all classes then why not give a revive skill that costs 100esprit, be it partner revive or a close proximity group revive...kinda we sacrafice a lot of dps for support.
* regen skill to party or partner only
- why not get bleading dot chance from bloodshower
-curring walts increase potency to 600 or lowe CD.

RNGs are the nasty pile since there are times that over 5-10x doing 1-2-3-4 you wont get a feather its frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Nepthys

Dancer needs some changes like:

- improvisation is just baaad, almost never a spot to use it, cant move, loads slow, requires a lot of teamates near us. Could be a self buff or add new feature of loading feathers
- rngs procs needs to go up or at least make it so that next round of the skill will increase the rng procentage so if we fail to get a proc/feather next skill will have increased by 10-15% chance to get it and so on till 100%
- potencies needs to go up, at least on the feathers (like fan3) that are covered in huge pile of RNG, so if we are lucky and get it then be worth it.
- sabre dance being just a esprit dump is just bad...we need more skills we can use our esprit on:
* they should add a single target attack with potency of 800-850 that costs 50esprit
* if our damage is the lowest from all classes then why not give a revive skill that costs 100esprit, be it partner revive or a close proximity group revive...kinda we sacrafice a lot of dps for support.
* regen skill to party or partner only
- why not get bleading dot chance from bloodshower
-curring walts increase potency to 600 or lowe CD.

RNGs are the nasty pile since there are times that over 5-10x doing 1-2-3-4 you wont get a feather its frustrating.

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Me likes allot. I agree with you. I main summoner but dancer is my second go to and I would like curing waltz to have its cooldown lowered significantly. Red mage heals for allot more than we do and they can spam it. We can only use it once every 60 seconds. Kinda ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Nepthys

Dancer needs some changes like:

- improvisation is just baaad, almost never a spot to use it, cant move, loads slow, requires a lot of teamates near us. Could be a self buff or add new feature of loading feathers
- rngs procs needs to go up or at least make it so that next round of the skill will increase the rng procentage so if we fail to get a proc/feather next skill will have increased by 10-15% chance to get it and so on till 100%
- potencies needs to go up, at least on the feathers (like fan3) that are covered in huge pile of RNG, so if we are lucky and get it then be worth it.
- sabre dance being just a esprit dump is just bad...we need more skills we can use our esprit on:
* they should add a single target attack with potency of 800-850 that costs 50esprit
* if our damage is the lowest from all classes then why not give a revive skill that costs 100esprit, be it partner revive or a close proximity group revive...kinda we sacrafice a lot of dps for support.
* regen skill to party or partner only
- why not get bleading dot chance from bloodshower
-curring walts increase potency to 600 or lowe CD.

RNGs are the nasty pile since there are times that over 5-10x doing 1-2-3-4 you wont get a feather its frustrating.

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We dont need non casters getting reses, just feels obtuse abd the logic makes no sense since SMN has a res being highest DPS, not every job needs a dot, the rest i half agree on due to being poorly explained on the "how" DNC needs to be more fun just feels very simple

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Originally Posted by Jirah

We dont need non casters getting reses, just feels obtuse abd the logic makes no sense since SMN has a res being highest DPS, not every job needs a dot, the rest i half agree on due to being poorly explained on the "how" DNC needs to be more fun just feels very simple

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Yes Summoner should lose raise since it has such high dps I agree, RDM has lower potency compared to SMN becouse they have both dual cast and raise. If a Dancer can heal others then why not have raise of its own as a support class and it would explain why its dmg is the lowest from all other classes, at least it would be the first range class that can revive while sacraficing a lot of dps (not jolt-varrise in 3sec), since getting esprit is slow and its heaviliy depending of partner performance.

As for fun, adding 1-2skills wouldnt break the class, but it would lower the frustration on the player becouse they cant proc or get a feather, and even if they do finally get it it doesnt proc fan3. The feeling that even if you did your rotations perfectly with 100% proc, fan3s, sabre dances you still are struggling in the dps metter becouse skill potencies are so low compared to other dps classes, which with 2-3skills out dps you instantly since potencies are higher.

So for me even if they dont want to rework the class/ make some changes, then at least they should add WAY more potencies buffs becouse of all those pilles of rngs on all skills, so if it finally procs would make it at least worth it.

Improvisation should be like meditation, a self buff of gaining esprit and feathers without the need for anyone to be near us. Flourish at other hand besides the skill procs should either fill our feathers instantly to 4 (as a part of opener) or make it that each of the skill procs grants 100% feather, so after 4skills we gain 4feathers.

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Originally Posted by Nepthys

snip .

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Its damage is low because ranged dps overall is low, and no just beacuase it has a basic heal ogcd doesnt mean it requires a res being situational and all and having no MP meaning it doesnt trade off anything and what would this skill be called? Necro tango??

im sorry adding 1-2 skills breaks the job? that confused me. I say leave potency issues away from core design as it has the potential to change within a patch not expansion. id all DNC got was a potnecy buff and nothing else it would be a massive let down for the CORE design which is the point of the topic at hand who cares about numbers those can change in any patch. if thats your only issue than DNC is perfect and should go to a topic regarding ranged potency

I've been playing DNC since I've swapped from healer in my static. I do love the job fantasy (almost wished what it could have been healer wise), though there's room for improvement.

Esprit as it stands has one use and that's for Saber Dance. There should be more options and I do think they'll add a ST version as well (WHM will probably get one too for Misery).

Some additional things they could do to make DNC feel more "support" is to make use of the Esprit meter since sometimes you can get a lot of it. On top of the obvious GCD spenders, I think we could also spare for some OGCD ones.

1. Invigorating Waltz. AoE or small AoE regen perhaps. 10-20 Esprit. 60s CD.

2. Enfeebling Tango. A DoT field (15s) centered around the DNC. 20 Esprit. 30s CD.

That's about it I can think of for now for spenders. I feel that they wouldn't add too many anyway, at least in 1 xpac. I will say that Esprit might need to be adjusted to make some of these possible or realistic.

As for improving or adding general non-esprit abilities, I have a couple.

1. Refreshing Samba. AoE cleanse. (This one might be too much since SCH had its removed). 120s CD.

2. Improvisation (Revised). I have two ideas. How it is now kinda sucks is only really useful in fights with actual downtime.

- a. AoE increased healing (both OGCD and GCD kinda like Asylum for 15s). 180s CD.

- b. Temporarily extends DNC partner to an additional DPS for 30s. 180s CD.

I don't think they'll really change up DNC too much tbh, since there are other jobs that desperately need more love. I think they're satisfied with the current state of it.

I expect a flourish timer trait, to be reduced to 40 seconds. Seems odd but it will either give breathing room or be exactly the sort of slightly off thing the devs are likely to put in since they hate perfection on anything not called black mage.

I also think we should have a full 4 feather dump since on occasion you end up with procs remaining but you've got loads of time to the next technical step. Perhaps a buff/debuff plus attack as compensation for losing possible fan dance 3s in addition to fan dance 1/2

Single target sabre dance maybe? idk I find current sabre dance sufficient for single target, but its aoe damage to be pitiful. 300 potency to aoe? bloodshower does more than that

Curing waltz charges, leaning on the support aspect of dancer or a cd reduction

Something espirit based thats not an attack.

pipe dream: Stunning Salsa- stuns the target (I really miss having a stun on mch way back in 3.0 in addition to silence)

Edit- an ability that jumps straight to your dance partner and give them a cuddle/kiss

Sabre dance oGCD, revamp Improvisation and maybe review te range of some dances.
Then we are good :)

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

I also think we should have a full 4 feather dump since on occasion you end up with procs remaining but you've got loads of time to the next technical step. Perhaps a buff/debuff plus attack as compensation for losing possible fan dance 3s in addition to fan dance 1/2

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My understanding is that you should always aim to be 3 feathers before TS phases, even if it's pretty far away, and use the last feather as an oGCD through your rotation as you obtain them. If you - really - want to, you can just weave or double weave them in between your GCDs and get rid of every feather in a few seconds, there's no need for a 4-feather dump to be created unless they made feather income less random, as it is gated between the proc of the proc.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I think eveyone misread my critique, CW is useful in certain situations but the practice of hitting it every 60 seconds doesnt make DNC complex. DNC needs somthing and if it gets treated like RDM in SHB itll begin to stagnate and people will be upset thier job has no new toys to use

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By definition having extra things to do and think about makes it more complex. It's not hitting it every 60 seconds, it's hitting it where it makes an impact which is seldom on cooldown and instead something you coordinate with your healers. Of course your healers appreciate it more the better players they are as they can take advantage of it instead of overhealing. This doesn't mean it puts dancer up as the harders job period period. Just means it's another layer to the optimization onion. A layer that doesn't exist for the other ranged and by comparison of the three, shows DNC has more nuance and as a result complexity.

Funnily enough RDM is also similar (at least based on SB experience). Since RNG jobs don't have a rotation/script to follow, some can find it hard to play, let alone optimize because it's a different skillset. RNG prioritizes decision making, while rotations prioritize memory. A few friends I helped pick up DNC switched over to MCH because they don't do well decision making and they like rotations.

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Originally Posted by Nepthys

Dancer needs some changes like:

- improvisation is just baaad, almost never a spot to use it, cant move, loads slow, requires a lot of teamates near us. Could be a self buff or add new feature of loading feathers
- rngs procs needs to go up or at least make it so that next round of the skill will increase the rng procentage so if we fail to get a proc/feather next skill will have increased by 10-15% chance to get it and so on till 100%
- potencies needs to go up, at least on the feathers (like fan3) that are covered in huge pile of RNG, so if we are lucky and get it then be worth it.
- sabre dance being just a esprit dump is just bad...we need more skills we can use our esprit on:
* they should add a single target attack with potency of 800-850 that costs 50esprit
* if our damage is the lowest from all classes then why not give a revive skill that costs 100esprit, be it partner revive or a close proximity group revive...kinda we sacrafice a lot of dps for support.
* regen skill to party or partner only
- why not get bleading dot chance from bloodshower
-curring walts increase potency to 600 or lowe CD.

RNGs are the nasty pile since there are times that over 5-10x doing 1-2-3-4 you wont get a feather its frustrating.

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This is why I like lower cd on flourish because it fixes the proc RNG issue by tightening it. You can still have 99% proc rate but you WILL have runs with 1% stacking RNG, so just doing it via 30 second flourish means you can't have a bad rng run by actually really bad.

However I think Saber is fine as is. We could have another esprit dumb that is AoE of our character instead of target that is the same potency as Saber with the same rules. Why? Because sometimes targetting is better and convenient and sometimes it's not and that's when having the option of self AoE is nice.

I do think curing could be a reduced CD so it encourages more uses from dancers to be influential.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

This is why I like lower cd on flourish because it fixes the proc RNG issue by tightening it. You can still have 99% proc rate but you WILL have runs with 1% stacking RNG, so just doing it via 30 second flourish means you can't have a bad rng run by actually really bad.

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It would def. make it better. My suggestion though was to make Flourish have 100% feather chance on its Flourished abilities, this would essentially make Flourish an on-demand feather generator for right before TS phases, even if it meant to increase the cooldown a bit. This would basically make feather usage more reliable and flexible outside of TS phases and the rotation a bit less boring. Sometimes if you're unlucky you can spend a lot of time still getting those 3 feathers, without anything to weave.

If DNCs would get a rez, I think it would be better to have it as something like a "Phoenix Step" 2-move dance that shares a recast with Standard Step. Having a rez being gated on 100 esprit (or even at 4 feathers) would make the raise quite unreliable, because both resources don't come regularly on demand, unless the rezzing situation happened on a burst phase.

I’m predicting DNC will stagnate abit, and get like 2 useless skills and a revamp to a older one.

The jobs simple nature makes it tricky to add onto it

I'd like to see 2nd version of closed position that's another type of dance style completely a la ballroom dancing.

I'd also like to see a free step. Where we can use the dance skills outside of our step routines in non combat.

I'd also like to see a custom step where we can combine both standard and technical step for a dot based attack of the combined damage potency. This would be a six step dance.

I'd also like to see a type of closed position that based on who your partner is you could do like a combined move or a different style of dance. So like Black Mage could do Fire Dancing, Dragoon could be a Dragon or Pole type dance, Samurai could be Sword Dancing ect. The effects could all be different but the damage, and potency wouldn't change.

One of the things that I really wish for it to be addressed in 6.0 is the trainwreck that is Improvisation.

The healing bonus is highly overhealing, especially with a WHM healer. The esprit gain doesn't make up for holding your regular rotation in case you decide to use this outside of the hand-counted situations where the boss is unreachable and the party is perfectly aligned together so you can get the max. benefit.

I just find hard to believe that this was elected to be DNC's level 80 cap skill. Isn't that supposed to be an exciting spell/upgrade of something?

Suggestion:
Reduce the duration to 12s, change healing received to some value of +crit%, and change the Esprit acquisition to a Feather every 3s. You may move while channeling, but any action other than En Avant will cancel it.

Crit instead of raw healing will make it useful for everyone, plus it will be a feather-on-demand generator for every other TS phases, or something that you'd save if by some reason you're close to TS without 4 feathers pooled, and Improvisation would be finally something usable outside of very few moments.

I only thing I see going for dancer in 6.0 is keeping saber dance on the gcd. a single target esprit spender. making flourish 30 secs.

Make improvisation also have a party wide dmg buff for 5% while you are dancing.

I'd kinda want to see the following changes to Flourish

• CD reduction
• More to the point, instead of just proccing the Weaponskills, theywould add something like 5.4 Perfect Balance where you get 4 charges (and Fan dance 2 proc) to use on any weaponskill. that way you can push for slightly more damage by using only Single Target or AoE weaponskills
• Also increase the chances of Feather procs to 100% per applicable weaponskill

For other changes, I kinda want a Regen effect on Waltz (and Nature's Minne), and a 4th Skill that works on you and your partner.