I know how to make living dead better while still retaining it's flavor.

Make walking dead status also convert damage you take into healing instead, this way it's easier to get back to 100% without eating all the healers resources but they would still probably need to heal you for some hp. Not only is this flavor approriate (you turn into a zombie kind of status where damage heals you) but it makes the ability much better and gives it unique interaction with some tankbusters. For example during triple titan tankbuster if you survive the first hit, the second would turn you to walking dead and third would heal you up, making it probably the best immunity cd for that fight while still requiring some healing in other fights. Cooldown could be adjusted appropriately if needed.

This very idea has been discussed ever since the job was released over 4 years ago - Its not a new idea, and it doesn't look like SE want to implement it. With good reason as well might i add.
Converting damage you take in to healing requires calculations on the server side - these take time, even if its only a micro second. Factor in ping...and well, a hit that would normally oneshot you would...Still oneshot you, because the server would declare you dead mere nanoseconds before realising you should of been healed, by which point its too late to correct.


It looks like SE doesn't want to change Tank super's at all, considering the only one that's ever been changed is Holmgang.

I don't think the suggestion is to take damage and heal at the same time (i.e. dreadspikes).

We're talking about something in-between Holmgang and Hallowed Ground. Drop down to 1 HP with Living Dead, and Walking Dead triggers. You're now invulnerable for the next 10 seconds, but can't be healed directly. Instead, any damage that you would have taken (and/or perhaps dealt) counts as healing. You'd have to be fairly selective in terms of when you use it. In places where there's a tankbuster followed by little to no outgoing damage (because of AoEs, etc.) or an untargetable boss, you'd potentially run the risk of sitting at 1 HP while being unable to be healed. But it would still be a significant improvement on the present ability. And it would actually give Living Dead a reason to be on a longer recast than Holmgang.

I suspect that the devs are evading a discussion on the subject because they don't know how to balance/rework the invulns. You could make an argument for removing them altogether.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I suspect that the devs are evading a discussion on the subject because they don't know how to balance/rework the invulns. You could make an argument for removing them altogether.

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The more I think about it, the more I want them to be removed. These tools are too powerful and essentially make tank busters trivial. You either have all your CDs or your invuln, everything is way too easy to survive because of that. Mitigating TBs would be much more interesting without these (Like E4S Stonecrusher with two tank swaps in a row for example, completely trivialized right now with invulns). If they want to keep it as an "oh shit" button then instead of removing them they could also make TBs go through them just like some mechanic damage or boss enrage damage do. That way they'd only be used in case of extreme emergency like a healer dying or something like that, instead of being used as a cheese. Either that or change encounter design and make TBs much much more frequent so that cheesing one with invuln wouldn't be so impactful over the course of an entire fight.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

The more I think about it, the more I want them to be removed. These tools are too powerful and essentially make tank busters trivial. You either have all your CDs or your invuln, everything is way too easy to survive because of that. Mitigating TBs would be much more interesting without these (Like E4S Stonecrusher with two tank swaps in a row for example, completely trivialized right now with invulns). If they want to keep it as an "oh shit" button then instead of removing them they could also make TBs go through them just like some mechanic damage or boss enrage damage do. That way they'd only be used in case of extreme emergency like a healer dying or something like that, instead of being used as a cheese. Either that or change encounter design and make TBs much much more frequent so that cheesing one with invuln wouldn't be so impactful over the course of an entire fight.

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Easiest solution would just be making tankbusters more frequent, I have no idea why they are not. In E4S there are 3 TB's

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Easiest solution would just be making tankbusters more frequent, I have no idea why they are not. In E4S there are 3 TB's

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Actually there are 3 stonecrushers but 10 busters in total. Every blue pushback puddle is also a buster and there is three shared busters and faultline, in his car form when he charges the tank.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Actually there are 3 stonecrushers but 10 busters in total. Every blue pushback puddle is also a buster and there is three shared busters and faultline, in his car form when he charges the tank.

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meh I guess it depends what you count as buster, the only ability that actually gives invuln and requires more than just mitigation is stonecrusher, I guess you can say the earthen anguishes and megaliths are too but faultline doesn't even hit that hard. The point is the only ability that would require some more intricate tank gameplay (double tankswap) is made completely irrelevant by immunities, they should have added more of those, they must have known that people are never gonna do that mechanic if they can just immunity it.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

meh I guess it depends what you count as buster, the only ability that actually gives invuln and requires more than just mitigation is stonecrusher, I guess you can say the earthen anguishes and megaliths are too but faultline doesn't even hit that hard. The point is the only ability that would require some more intricate tank gameplay (double tankswap) is made completely irrelevant by immunities, they should have added more of those, they must have known that people are never gonna do that mechanic if they can just immunity it.

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doesn't hit that hard if you adhere to the prox mechanic of faultline, but some groups actually tank invuln up close, and handle the second stonecrusher properly. As for busters, they're the heavy damage that requires you to pop cooldowns otherwise your dead casted or uncasted.

The problem with this idea is that you effectively nerf the 'invuln' part of walking dead.

In the case that Walking dead can block a ton of super high damaging hits normally, you'd die almost instantly into the 'invuln' section.

For example, Ahk Morn in Ultimate. Living Dead can currently take all 5-6 ahk morn blasts in a row due to its duration, but if you make it so that subsequent hits heal, you'd reduce it to only being able to take 2. (get killed by first hit -> get healed -> die to third)

Or any buster that inflicts a vuln then receives auto attacks after. A DRK can hold the boss for an extra 2-3 autos after a buster that would kill them, whereas you'd nerf that ability and require basically an instant swap due to the first vuln'd auto immediately dispelling walking dead. All I think walking dead needs is a global +50-100% to healing received on its duration to help solo healers/panic restores when Bene isn't available. LD is still one of, if not the strongest Immunity in a controlled setting since you can pre-pop it and still get the full 10s immunity due to it being divided into two parts, whereas Hallowed/Bolide/Holm need to be timed.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

I guess you can say the earthen anguishes and megaliths are too.

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They both are, without CDs they're guaranteed to bust pretty much any tank. Tank busters don't always have to have a vuln, they just have to do enough damage to more often than not one-shot a tank who's not mitigating properly.
(Flatten from Bahamut doesn't inflict a vuln, but with no mitigation you're eating a whole cup serving of insta-death, for example.)

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

The problem with this idea is that you effectively nerf the 'invuln' part of walking dead.

In the case that Walking dead can block a ton of super high damaging hits normally, you'd die almost instantly into the 'invuln' section.

For example, Ahk Morn in Ultimate. Living Dead can currently take all 5-6 ahk morn blasts in a row due to its duration, but if you make it so that subsequent hits heal, you'd reduce it to only being able to take 2. (get killed by first hit -> get healed -> die to third)

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You can't really say it's a nerf, in some cases yes, it would perform better now but there are other cases where it would perform better after my proposal. And in those cases now where it performs better it's still a massive black hole for resources, yeah you can bene it, but that's precisely my point, you have to save your bene for it, otherwise it's a pain in the ass to heal and even bigger resource waster. We are not trying to make it perfect here, just better and getting rid of the huge resource wasting component. I have a drk in my static, you know what I don't particularly like? Having to save bene for ld every fight we decide to use it, if I do accidentally use it for some other fuck up then my god me and my co-healer have to waste so much stuff on it.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

You can't really say it's a nerf, in some cases yes, it would perform better now but there are other cases where it would perform better after my proposal. And in those cases now where it performs better it's still a massive black hole for resources, yeah you can bene it, but that's precisely my point, you have to save your bene for it, otherwise it's a pain in the ass to heal and even bigger resource waster. We are not trying to make it perfect here, just better and getting rid of the huge resource wasting component. I have a drk in my static, you know what I don't particularly like? Having to save bene for ld every fight we decide to use it, if I do accidentally use it for some other fuck up then my god me and my co-healer have to waste so much stuff on it.

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When an ability that could previously ignore 9ss worth of fatal damage (factoring in latency for the bene press) can suddenly only ignore potentially 3-4s (depending on circumstance), it is a direct nerf, straight up.
Rather than nerf the invuln part of it, buff the part that makes you have to sink resources into it. I also have a DRK in my static, and my group's ultimate strats would be butchered with your idea. (Even our E4S strat, where we use LD to cover all three stonecrusher hits + megalith in the final phase due to the sheer OPness that is LD's duration.)

Like I said, buff it so the DRK receives 2x as much healing during walking dead from all sources and the downside much more reasonable. It'll be much easier for solo healers to get rid of, practically trivial for dual-healers to dispel, and everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

When an ability that could previously ignore 9ss worth of fatal damage (factoring in latency for the bene press) can suddenly only ignore potentially 3-4s (depending on circumstance), it is a direct nerf, straight up.

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No it is not, now it's better for shorter high damage windows like titan triple tankbusters. Worse for extremely long high damage parts and better for shorter ones, it is even better for normal double tankbusters since auto-attacks afterwards would heal you. It's really only worse for situations where the full 15-20 seconds of invuln is required and let's be real there aren't that many of those.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

No it is not, now it's better for shorter high damage windows like titan triple tankbusters. Worse for extremely long high damage parts and better for shorter ones, it is even better for normal double tankbusters since auto-attacks afterwards would heal you. It's really only worse for situations where the full 15-20 seconds of invuln is required and let's be real there aren't that many of those.

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We'd have to agree to disagree. Nerfing theoretical durations is a very bad move when Holmgang and Bolide are already incapable of performing the same feats as Hallowed & LD can due to durations alone, You essentially gut LD's full usefulness to make it more selectively useful, when its easily fixed by targetting the actual weak point of the ability with a more rational, objective buff all around. When all three of the other Immunities let you survive and absorb as much fatal damage as possible within their durations, making one where absorbing that fatal damage is an active detriment to the intended effect of the ability is a very odd thought process.

Also funnily enough, if your DRK died to the first hit on stonecrusher, then your new LD wouldn't save them either where the old one would. Just saying. (dead (WD) -> healed -> dead)

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

We'd have to agree to disagree. Nerfing theoretical durations is a very bad move when Holmgang and Bolide are already incapable of performing the same feats as Hallowed & LD can due to durations alone, You essentially gut LD's full usefulness to make it more selectively useful, when its easily fixed by targetting the actual weak point of the ability with a more rational, objective buff all around. When all three of the other Immunities let you survive and absorb as much fatal damage as possible within their durations, making one where absorbing that fatal damage is an active detriment to the intended effect of the ability is a very odd thought process.

Also funnily enough, if your DRK died to the first hit on stonecrusher, then your new LD wouldn't save them either where the old one would. Just saying. (dead (WD) -> healed -> dead)

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Yeah it would make it different by not letting it absorb as much damage as possible for it's entire duration, but it would essentially turn it to hallowed ground in some situations where no healer resources are needed to bring the tank back from the brink unlike holmgang and bolide. It's ok if you think it's worse but calling it a direct nerf is just lying, that would mean it would be similar as it is now but worse, when in fact it's very different and whether it's better on not is completely subjective.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Yeah it would make it different by not letting it absorb as much damage as possible for it's entire duration, but it would essentially turn it to hallowed ground in some situations where no healer resources are needed to bring the tank back from the brink unlike holmgang and bolide. It's ok if you think it's worse but calling it a direct nerf is just lying, that would mean it would be similar as it is now but worse, when in fact it's very different and whether it's better on not is completely subjective.

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To be fair, it is a direct nerf if it's duration has been hindered as Maria states, if the damage that killed you and for the 10second duration of Walking Dead converted ALL damage into heals, then it would be fine but would need a 6 minute recast minimim if not 7minutes.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

To be fair, it is a direct nerf if it's duration has been hindered as Maria states, if the damage that killed you and for the 10second duration of Walking Dead converted ALL damage into heals, then it would be fine but would need a 6 minute recast minimim if not 7minutes.

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No, stop misusing the word, it's not a direct nerf since it's completely different. Tell me in how many current savage encounters you would actually need that full duration of ld? Right, none. And now think in how many the proposed one would actually be better? Right, in pretty much all of them. Immunities are extremely rarely used for anything other than tankbusters that last like 5 seconds, whether you can immune some autoattacks after that is irrelevant if you still have to heal drk to full wasting resources like hell. In E4S for example the proposed one would be godlike for both tankbusters since earthen anguish will kill you if you don't use any cooldowns and megalith would heal you up. Stop looking at the duration, it's irrelevant in 95% of cases.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

No, stop misusing the word, it's not a direct nerf since it's completely different. Tell me in how many current savage encounters you would actually need that full duration of ld? Right, none. And now think in how many the proposed one would actually be better? Right, in pretty much all of them. Immunities are extremely rarely used for anything other than tankbusters that last like 5 seconds, whether you can immune some autoattacks after that is irrelevant if you still have to heal drk to full wasting resources like hell. In E4S for example the proposed one would be godlike for both tankbusters since earthen anguish will kill you if you don't use any cooldowns and megalith would heal you up. Stop looking at the duration, it's irrelevant in 95% of cases.

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Actually, for Stonecrusher, you would be dead on the third hit 9 times outta 10 without the extended duration of 10seconds, because LD is popped, no healer will want to use any heals before the first hit if they're gonna top you up in Walking Dead. Secondly in current WD, if you have a AST/SCH comp, after stonecrusher, you would need all 10seconds to soak the damage, and get the DRK topped to full again, so yes your proposed WD would be a DIRECT NERF. Also worth pointing out, current Eden is the baby level tier, while difficulty will increase next tier and the tier after, where invulns will be used more often. So basing your argument off of one tier is a pretty bad way to assess a skill.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Actually, for Stonecrusher, you would be dead on the third hit 9 times outta 10 without the extended duration of 10seconds, because LD is popped, no healer will want to use any heals before the first hit

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I would use heals to top the drk off before the first stonecrusher much more gladly than having to heal him afterwards. It's much more easier to top him off before that first hit when he has only taken a couple of autoattacks compared to having to heal 100% of his hp afterwards. I don't know why that would be a problem but wasting stuff to heal 100% of his hp isn't.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Secondly in current WD, if you have a AST/SCH comp, after stonecrusher, you would need all 10seconds to soak the damage, and get the DRK topped to full again, so yes your proposed WD would be a DIRECT NERF.

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I don't even understand what you mean by this, maybe I did not make myself clear. The duration of living dead and walking dead would stay the same, you would only receive extra healing from all the damage, so walking dead would end sooner in some cases. The only way it is worse is if there is a long period of high damage and drk gets healed by damage earlier.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Also worth pointing out, current Eden is the baby level tier, while difficulty will increase next tier and the tier after, where invulns will be used more often. So basing your argument off of one tier is a pretty bad way to assess a skill.

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Fine, look at the previous tiers. In how many encounters there actually are long high damage periods where immunity is used where the proposed ld would be worse? The fact is the most common way to use immunities is to prevent simple tankbusters, since long high damage periods are usually aimed at the whole group, which in turn means that tanks take them much more easier and no immunities are needed. I have had one example in here where it is worse and I give you that, but I can think 10 other instances where it is better.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

I would use heals to top the drk off before the first stonecrusher much more gladly than having to heal him afterwards. It's much more easier to top him off before that first hit when he has only taken a couple of autoattacks compared to having to heal 100% of his hp afterwards. I don't know why that would be a problem but wasting stuff to heal 100% of his hp isn't.



I don't even understand what you mean by this, maybe I did not make myself clear. The duration of living dead and walking dead would stay the same, you would only receive extra healing from all the damage, so walking dead would end sooner in some cases. The only way it is worse is if there is a long period of high damage and drk gets healed by damage earlier.



Fine, look at the previous tiers. In how many encounters there actually are long high damage periods where immunity is used where the proposed ld would be worse? The fact is the most common way to use immunities is to prevent simple tankbusters, since long high damage periods are usually aimed at the whole group, which in turn means that tanks take them much more easier and no immunities are needed. I have had one example in here where it is worse and I give you that, but I can think 10 other instances where it is better.

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I mean Benediction says hello, which means more uptime in glare casts. And not every situation will allow to make sure the DRK is topped off before the hit which is wasted resource if you have Benediction in LD current form.

Just because you repeat it, doesn't make it any less of a DIRECT NERF, because it is effectively shorter in duration than holmgang in many cases. Tankbusters such as Akh Morns, Bahamut's flatten + Flare breaths, triple Incinerate from Ifrit in uwu, Alexander prime's cleave, TB, Cleave, will be a, you guessed it, a dIRECT NERF with your proposed LD.
Honestly, the only time LD is an actual problem, is when in pug content with randoms that dunno what they're doing. If you use LD as a planned CD like all others, it's just as effective as all other invulns, but this proposed LD is not good design.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I mean Benediction says hello, which means more uptime in glare casts. And not every situation will allow to make sure the DRK is topped off before the hit which is wasted resource if you have Benediction in LD current form.

Just because you repeat it, doesn't make it any less of a DIRECT NERF, because it is effectively shorter in duration than holmgang in many cases. Tankbusters such as Akh Morns, God kefka, with share + Hyperdrive, triple Incinerate from Ifrit in uwu, will be a, you guessed it, a dIRECT NERF.
Honestly, the only time LD is an actual problem, is when in pug content with randoms that dunno what they're doing. If you use LD as a planned CD like all others, it's just as effective as all other invulns, but this proposed LD is not good design.

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Ah, here comes the "just bene it lol". You can just bene it before the tankbuster also and it's the same thing so null point there. The original point was that the current ld is a blackhole for resources counting bene, it's not good that I have to save bene for ld, I don't have to do that for any other immunities. This basically means that if we decide to use ld, I lose one of my cooldowns since I absolutely have to save it for ld. Just because you bold the text doesn't make it a direct nerf, it's a nerf in those situations, not overall. The problem with current ld is not that pugs don't know what they are doing, it's that it requires so much more from the healers than any other immunity, yeah it works, but that doesn't make it good. But you have obviously made your mind, I dunno why you value the duration so much since it's irrelevant in most cases, ironically in the god kefka case you listed my version is better, since the walking dead pops from the stack and the hyperdrive heals it. Just continue to deny the fact that immunities are rarely used for prolonged damage where there are 3 or more heave hits.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Ah, here comes the "just bene it lol". You can just bene it before the tankbuster also and it's the same thing so null point there. The original point was that the current ld is a blackhole for resources counting bene, it's not good that I have to save bene for ld, I don't have to do that for any other immunities. This basically means that if we decide to use ld, I lose one of my cooldowns since I absolutely have to save it for ld. Just because you bold the text doesn't make it a direct nerf, it's a nerf in those situations, not overall. The problem with current ld is not that pugs don't know what they are doing, it's that it requires so much more from the healers than any other immunity, yeah it works, but that doesn't make it good. But you have obviously made your mind, I dunno why you value the duration so much since it's irrelevant in most cases, ironically in the god kefka case you listed my version is better, since the walking dead pops from the stack and the hyperdrive heals it. Just continue to deny the fact that immunities are rarely used for prolonged damage where there are 3 or more heave hits.

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I did change God kekfa example as it was only a double hit and while yes it would work in that situation, but on multiple hitting busters it is a death sentence, it would be impossible to change targets for akh morn, and same will be said for flare breaths. Even Holmgang at 6seconds can work through some multi-hit damage bursts. But this effectively neutures the skill and takes the consistency away from the skills that ALL currently have. Pop x skill everyone knows it's up for y seconds, where as with your suggestion, it could wear off earlier than expected and not be noticed, and dead DRK.

I gotta laugh though you say more or less you have have to plan bene around LD, but that exactly what you're supposed to with oGCD lmfao you're literally taking a planned use from point A and moving it to point B, hell bene is often paired up with Holmgang in the same fashion as LD, when there is no DRK with planned LD uses, which effectively is the same thing you're complaining about. Damage is predictable in this game, to optimise damage output, you plan when and where to use your oGCDs. and blowing bene at the start seems wasteful as you'll probably have half of it go to overheal, as opposed to current LD.

I did highlight direct nerf, more so because in my eyes, it is, but you tried to repeat your suggestion in some disillusion that it would make me think otherwise.

DRKs new invuln:
Sacrifice all but 1 HP, become invincible.

GNBs new invuln:
Can't go below 1 hp.

WARs new invuln:
Cant go below 1 hp, once at 1 hp, needs to be healed to full, to sooth their fury. If not healed to full, they go into an uncontrollable fury, spamming random GCDs. (the WSs wont combo)

there, I fixed the invulns.

How about simply reducing the need to heal DRK up to 100% of their max HP to just 50%. Make it a level 71 trait.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

How about simply reducing the need to heal DRK up to 100% of their max HP to just 50%. Make it a level 71 trait.

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It used to be 80% when DRK had convalescence.
And back when DRK had blood bath from WAR, that was "probably" nearly 5% taken off. (pure guessing)

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I gotta laugh though you say more or less you have have to plan bene around LD, but that exactly what you're supposed to with oGCD lmfao you're literally taking a planned use from point A and moving it to point B, hell bene is often paired up with Holmgang in the same fashion as LD, when there is no DRK with planned LD uses, which effectively is the same thing you're complaining about. Damage is predictable in this game, to optimise damage output, you plan when and where to use your oGCDs. and blowing bene at the start seems wasteful as you'll probably have half of it go to overheal, as opposed to current LD.

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Other immunities don't require bene to be not shit, I can use it for other things as I like. Bene overhealing is irrelevant, I don't want to hold it, it's wasteful. And have you taken into consideration the fact that the ld is barely worth using if there is no whm in the party?

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I did highlight direct nerf, more so because in my eyes, it is, but you tried to repeat your suggestion in some disillusion that it would make me think otherwise.

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yes my disillusion was that you would actually think about all the other situations where it is not worse, hence not making the ability overall a direct nerf. But it seems that you can't.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Yeah it would make it different by not letting it absorb as much damage as possible for it's entire duration, but it would essentially turn it to hallowed ground in some situations where no healer resources are needed to bring the tank back from the brink unlike holmgang and bolide. It's ok if you think it's worse but calling it a direct nerf is just lying, that would mean it would be similar as it is now but worse, when in fact it's very different and whether it's better on not is completely subjective.

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Your new LD would only be effective against single hit tank busters, or TB's that don't have more than 2 instances of fatal damage within their duration. Its a small (arguably, since most healers plan their uses of Bene anyway in static situations) buff to healers to not have to heal it, but a direct nerf on what LD itself can achieve. If you want to think that's not a nerf that's your choice, but given that your new LD idea literally cannot accomplish all the same things as current LD can, I see it as a direct nerf to functionality. Because factually, your idea is a nerf to LD itself.

The real buff to do here is to separate the doom part of WD into its own separate debuff and make it not remove the immunity aspect of WD when its cleansed. Keeps the same functionality, but now you're allowed to heal the DRK gradually over the course of 10s instead of pushing Bene or super healing them at the end. Maybe toss in the extra healing power to make the downside even easier to manage.

Don't nerf functionality, buff the downside.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Other immunities don't require bene to be not shit, I can use it for other things as I like. Bene overhealing is irrelevant, I don't want to hold it, it's wasteful. And have you taken into consideration the fact that the ld is barely worth using if there is no whm in the party?



yes my disillusion was that you would actually think about all the other situations where it is not worse, hence not making the ability overall a direct nerf. But it seems that you can't.

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Yea, other Immunities do not require Bene, and the devs could actually look into alternatives that eases the burden on the healers, that isn't this awful suggestion that is a DIRECT NERF to LD. Yes of course I'm gonna focus on where its flaws are, because duh, how else are we gonna find out if a skill is actually worth it or not, which this change has a massive glaring problem, it's longevity in it's duration being more unpredictable than the damage in this game, so no it's not a good change.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Yea, other Immunities do not require Bene, and the devs could actually look into alternatives that eases the burden on the healers, that isn't this awful suggestion that is a DIRECT NERF to LD. Yes of course I'm gonna focus on where its flaws are, because duh, how else are we gonna find out if a skill is actually worth it or not, which this change has a massive glaring problem, it's longevity in it's duration being more unpredictable than the damage in this game, so no it's not a good change.

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If you had a rational thought process you would look at the flaws and pros of the immunity if you want to determine whether it's good or not, now you are just ignoring the pros. But keep bolding that text and ignoring everything I say, you got this.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

If you had a rational thought process you would look at the flaws and pros of the immunity if you want to determine whether it's good or not, now you are just ignoring the pros. But keep bolding that text and ignoring everything I say, you got this.

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I know what the pros are, it take one hit to enter WD second hit heals the DRK to max health (pro, only at this point), the next hit makes the DRK falls flat on his arse (con).

either side of your pro there is an issue, you still have to heal the DRK up if there isn't any significant subsequent damage, and on the other side of it, if the effect is cancelled earlier than you need it to end, then you have a dead tank.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

Your new LD would only be effective against single hit tank busters, or TB's that don't have more than 2 instances of fatal damage within their duration. Its a small (arguably, since most healers plan their uses of Bene anyway in static situations) buff to healers to not have to heal it, but a direct nerf on what LD itself can achieve. If you want to think that's not a nerf that's your choice, but given that your new LD idea literally cannot accomplish all the same things as current LD can, I see it as a direct nerf to functionality. Because factually, your idea is a nerf to LD itself.

The real buff to do here is to separate the doom part of WD into its own separate debuff and make it not remove the immunity aspect of WD when its cleansed. Keeps the same functionality, but now you're allowed to heal the DRK gradually over the course of 10s instead of pushing Bene or super healing them at the end. Maybe toss in the extra healing power to make the downside even easier to manage.

Don't nerf functionality, buff the downside.

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Those kinds of tankbusters are the majority though, so that's why I think it would be better. At least you acknowledge it has both pros and cons. Yeah it's not the only way to make it better but I think it would be an interesting way to make it better. Your proposal is not bad either and I would be fine with both, I just like to add little more spice to it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't think the suggestion is to take damage and heal at the same time (i.e. dreadspikes).

We're talking about something in-between Holmgang and Hallowed Ground. Drop down to 1 HP with Living Dead, and Walking Dead triggers. You're now invulnerable for the next 10 seconds, but can't be healed directly. Instead, any damage that you would have taken (and/or perhaps dealt) counts as healing. You'd have to be fairly selective in terms of when you use it. In places where there's a tankbuster followed by little to no outgoing damage (because of AoEs, etc.) or an untargetable boss, you'd potentially run the risk of sitting at 1 HP while being unable to be healed. But it would still be a significant improvement on the present ability. And it would actually give Living Dead a reason to be on a longer recast than Holmgang.

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Yeah, this is the best one I think.

Walking dead doesn't require healing to 100% or you die, instead the 'messing it up' potential comes from not getting hit enough.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Yeah, this is the best one I think.

Walking dead doesn't require healing to 100% or you die, instead the 'messing it up' potential comes from not getting hit enough.

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It would actually make more sense to have a temp HP shield on DRK, if their invuln was like this. (Rather than being "better" for a GNB.)

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Make walking dead status also convert damage you take into healing instead, this way it's easier to get back to 100% without eating all the healers resources but they would still probably need to heal you for some hp. Not only is this flavor approriate (you turn into a zombie kind of status where damage heals you) but it makes the ability much better and gives it unique interaction with some tankbusters. For example during triple titan tankbuster if you survive the first hit, the second would turn you to walking dead and third would heal you up, making it probably the best immunity cd for that fight while still requiring some healing in other fights. Cooldown could be adjusted appropriately if needed.

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I like it but the devil would be in the details. For multi hit tb it would be unfortunate to get into WD status then be healed/cleansed just to take the next leg of it and die. It would still need some guaranteed invincibility window. Maybe a guaranteed invincibilty window of 8-10 seconds but WD effect must be cleansed within 10 seconds.

It all really depends on how the healing would be calculated.

It really would fill a niche for DRK considering its gutted self sustain this expansion. LD mechanic would have been bettered paired with a high snap self-sustain job like pld or war (although I wouldn't wish this invulv on anyone).

Better idea, remove the “get healed or die” on it and the “reduce to 1 hp” of superbolide. The tank ultimates shouldn’t have weaknesses or drawbacks.

Let Fray became a sacrificial lamb to walking dead debuff!

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Better idea, remove the “get healed or die” on it and the “reduce to 1 hp” of superbolide. The tank ultimates shouldn’t have weaknesses or drawbacks.

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Then they would likely have to make them all exactly the same ability with the same effect, same duration and same recast since all of those differences are themselves weaknesses and/or strengths.

Just looking at Superbolide, if you were to remove the "drop to 1 hp" effect from it, it would just be a better Hallowed Ground since the 60s lower recast more than makes up for a 2s shorter duration in the vast majority of use cases.

Furthermore, the "drop to 1hp" effect of Superbolide is not exactly a "weakness" and more of an equalizer between it and Holmgang and Living Dead. Both of those abilities only mitigate damage when the tank is at 1hp. Before hitting 1hp, the tank is in no different position than if they hadn't used their ability. Superbolide basically just forcibly has the tank activate that condition of "only starts really doing anything at 1hp" and makes them immune to virtually all damage, which is still effectively a stronger immunity than Living Dead or Holmgang which still need to hit 1hp to get the "invulnerability" aspect of their abilities but can still take damage but just not die, hence the shorter recast on those abilities as a counter-balance.

Also, keep in mind that the "drop to 1hp" effect can managed quite easily in a similar way to maximizing up-time on Holmgang.
In the instance of a buster that would kill you right out, it is no different than popping Holmgang right before the buster since you would pretty immediately reduced to 1hp with either ability, you just get the benefit of not taking damage for the duration with Superbolide.
In the instance of a stream of high incoming damage, like in a wall-to-wall pull, you do the same thing as you would with Holmgang where you wait until you hp has gotten very low before popping your invuln, therefore maximizing uptime with Holmgang and minimizing the hp lost when dropping to 1hp with Superbolide.

Built in "weaknesses" are not by themselves bad, they provide the differences and flavours for abilities and tend to actually make the usage of these abilities more fun since they require some level of thought in their usage.
The problems arise when this idea is taken too far and you end up with situations like too many "weaknesses" are layered together making the ability convoluted, the "weaknesses" result in an overly harsh punishment, and the player using the ability having no real control over managing the "weaknesses" of the ability. That's when you end up with something like Living Dead.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Better idea, remove the “get healed or die” on it and the “reduce to 1 hp” of superbolide. The tank ultimates shouldn’t have weaknesses or drawbacks.

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I doubt it would be viable in anything other than group content (it would be nice to be usable in solo challenges) with that change since DRK has a lack luster self sustain kit. BUT it’s still better than what we have currently. If they’re going to change it I doubt they’d clone a invulv.