Can we please ban advertisements for selling clears from PF?

I'd like to open my party finder just once without being reminded that people actually pay money for this.

If you mean they are paying real money, then yes, that's already a bannable offense. If you see an ad for clear for real money, you can report that player.

If you're talking about gil, then there's nothing against the rules about that. If that's how people want to spend their gil, then that's their choice.

What Kaeden said is absolutely correct.

The ingame economy supports players exchanging goods and services. Buying a clear from a player is no different than buying an item from them, or paying them to overmeld your gear. It's how the gil is obtained that is the biggest point of contention, and the RMT argument is completely separate from the "buying clears" argument.

Whether that makes it fair or right that players should be allowed to be carried through content is a reasonable debate, but as far as terms of service goes, its perfectly valid, and will never be banned.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Whether that makes it fair or right that players should be allowed to be carried through content is a reasonable debate, but as far as terms of service goes, its perfectly valid, and will never be banned.

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As it is long ago, when content, that gets advertised for selling, was doable by 7 man or less, its not a carry, that gets advertised.

The point: account sharing.

So with the T&C in mind, this service is not "perfectly valid".

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

If you mean they are paying real money, then yes, that's already a bannable offense. If you see an ad for clear for real money, you can report that player.

If you're talking about gil, then there's nothing against the rules about that. If that's how people want to spend their gil, then that's their choice.

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I've noticed that every single one of these things says "add on discord for info", which is basically code for "pay us real money".

As long as no real $$$ is involved I could not care less and am actually encouraging of run-selling as it keeps the economy flowing both ways. Once Gil gets involved though, yeah there is a problem. It is, however, impossible to prove this as they handle all money related business through discord.

I'd settle for restricting PF recruiting ilvl settings to have a maximum value no greater than current ilvl cap. Being allowed to set up a recruitment that restricts all players from actually joining is dumb. At least if they're forced to set it to cap, any group of end-game players could just go through joining and filling all the parties so they get removed from the list if they so desired.

Have used PF once in like...4yrs? Recently. Someone needed to clear an old dungeon and it was buried under blankets of advert PFs. I think you can get stuck waiting, if people cant be bothered to scroll past 10 PFs.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I'd settle for restricting PF recruiting ilvl settings to have a maximum value no greater than current ilvl cap. Being allowed to set up a recruitment that restricts all players from actually joining is dumb. At least if they're forced to set it to cap, any group of end-game players could just go through joining and filling all the parties so they get removed from the list if they so desired.

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Or just restrict it to the player’s ilvl

Id say it's bannable if the person asks for your contact or provides theirs in order to discuss terms outside of the game.

This stops account sharing and stops RMT.

If they can sell the content to you, they should be able to do it with 7 people plus a grey percentile player [someone purposefully doing nothing.]

There is another problem with it though, providing a service like this can create situations for even gil scamming, since you aren't using the in game trade for half of the deal [the service.]

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Or just restrict it to the player’s ilvl

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Nah. As a lower level player, it'd kinda suck if I couldn't join any WT parties because everyone had a higher ilvl than me.

It doesn't need to be needlessly restrictive. Just needs to be attainable. Doesn't even need to be easily attainable. Just as long as there's a remote possibility that the PF will actually recruit players. Because if it can't recruit, it doesn't need to exist.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Nah. As a lower level player, it'd kinda suck if I couldn't join any WT parties because everyone had a higher ilvl than me.

It doesn't need to be needlessly restrictive. Just needs to be attainable. Doesn't even need to be easily attainable. Just as long as there's a remote possibility that the PF will actually recruit players. Because if it can't recruit, it doesn't need to exist.

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What I meant was a player can’t set a PF with an ilvl requirement higher than their own

I agree with the notion that it should be banned simply on the basis that discussing terms outside of the game is opening up the potential for people to get scammed without any way of proving it.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

As it is long ago, when content, that gets advertised for selling, was doable by 7 man or less, its not a carry, that gets advertised.

The point: account sharing.

So with the T&C in mind, this service is not "perfectly valid".

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Originally Posted by TheLittlestLala

I've noticed that every single one of these things says "add on discord for info", which is basically code for "pay us real money".

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You aren't going to like the answer, but it all comes down to... Can you prove it?

If you can't its basically assumption and slander, which isn't grounds for a report. Yeah, you are probably right, but if it takes place off of the game, and you cannot see transcripts of conversations talking about real money trading and account sharing then it has no weight in the argument.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I agree with the notion that it should be banned simply on the basis that discussing terms outside of the game is opening up the potential for people to get scammed without any way of proving it.

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thats true about literally anything, though. Square cannot be responsible for peoples actions outside of their game so Square cannot do anything but act on reports of players breaking rules inside of game.

And OP is just complaining about the annoyance of the ads. I also hate ads and install several adblockers on any device I can. however, banning a PF for being annoying is kind of overreacting. Its better to just deal with it and move on.

I'd probably shoot for 2 things.

1) An option to hide an unwanted PF listing from a player that lasts 24 hours. Hidden PFs are moved to a unique tab and won't show on All or their chosen section.
2) Referencing any outside app/program or site within the objective text be further prohibited.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You aren't going to like the answer, but it all comes down to... Can you prove it?

If you can't its basically assumption and slander, which isn't grounds for a report. Yeah, you are probably right, but if it takes place off of the game, and you cannot see transcripts of conversations talking about real money trading and account sharing then it has no weight in the argument.

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I think that’s part of the problem, demanding payment terms be discussed over discord should be enough to qualify as suspicious behavior.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I think that’s part of the problem, demanding payment terms be discussed over discord should be enough to qualify as suspicious behavior.

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Thats a dangerous precident to set. Nothing about asking to talk on discord is directly incriminating. There are many reasons why a player may do this, the use of voice chat and ease of communication between a large group of people being two of those reasons. It is only suspicious behavior if you create a narrative that it is suspicious, which SE rightfully don't do. Should we treat requiring people to use discord in savage PFs as a problem too because there is no way to transcribe the communication?

While I know nothing can be done, what I don't like is how clogged PF is with people miscategorizing with roulette. Especially when I want to use it legitimately.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Should we treat requiring people to use discord in savage PFs as a problem too because there is no way to transcribe the communication?

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Would be nice if they put their ads in the proper category for one.

https://i.imgur.com/ehM2GFY.png

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Originally Posted by Saidosha

I'd probably shoot for 2 things.

2) Referencing any outside app/program or site within the objective text be further prohibited.

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I get what you're going for, but if I'm recruiting for a PUG or to fill a static, I want to make sure that any potential applicant knows they're expected to be active on Discord. Additionally, the RMT'ers will just tell whomever they're selling to to move the discussion to a 3rd party program. This particular solution inconveniences legitimate PF groups while not actually solving any problems.

They aren't doing anything wrong. Selling clears for gil openly is allowed and selling for real money is allowed as long as you keep the particulars out of the game.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

They aren't doing anything wrong. Selling clears for gil openly is allowed and selling for real money is allowed as long as you keep the particulars out of the game.

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Selling for real money is most certainly not allowed if it’s being discussed in the game or not it’s a violation of the terms of service they are just skirting around getting caught

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Originally Posted by Gula

Would be nice if they put their ads in the proper category for one.

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While I'm not advocating it, as yeah it can be annoying, thats simply a misuse of PF and not a legitimate issue. Basically this thread has gone from "Can we ban the purchase of clears as they are a bad thing for the game and questionable" to "presentation of PFs mildly annoys me".

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Thats a dangerous precident to set. Nothing about asking to talk on discord is directly incriminating. There are many reasons why a player may do this, the use of voice chat and ease of communication between a large group of people being two of those reasons. It is only suspicious behavior if you create a narrative that it is suspicious, which SE rightfully don't do. Should we treat requiring people to use discord in savage PFs as a problem too because there is no way to transcribe the communication?

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I mean I don’t know if you intentionally left out the part I said about demanding payment terms on discord which is completely unrelated to people doing savage mechanic callouts over discord voice chat....

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

They aren't doing anything wrong. Selling clears for gil openly is allowed and selling for real money is allowed as long as you keep the particulars out of the game.

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It is not allowed, just impossible to prove.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I mean I don’t know if you intentionally left out the part I said about demanding payment terms on discord which is completely unrelated to people doing savage mechanic callouts over discord voice chat....

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"Please can we discuss payment terms on discord so that we as a group, including people who are not in game can contribute to the sale" - Who are we to say this isn't happening, there is no evidence either way, and if there is then it IS reportable.

Basically your argument comes down to "because they have said this, I assume that they are doing something suspicious. My suspicion is highly subjective, taking into account bias and preconceived ideas of clear purchases, but I don't have any evidence that what I think is happening is actually happening". Of course there is always a chance that you are right, but your solution sets a precident on what people are allowed to say or do within the game.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

It is not allowed, just impossible to prove.

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SE doesn't have to prove anything, it's their service. If it wasn't allowed the ads would be taken down. Like parsing, they can't officially endorse it, but as long as you keep the info to private channels they don't have a problem with it.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

SE doesn't have to prove anything, it's their service. If it wasn't allowed the ads would be taken down. Like parsing, they can't officially endorse it, but as long as you keep the info to private channels they don't have a problem with it.

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So what proof does SE have to take the ads down from pf, SE cannot just go nope you are selling stuff for rl money based on hunches, they get sued, as annoying as they are without hard in game proof of them actively selling runs for rl money(they have to say it within the game so gl with that) SE cannot do anything despite it being against ToS.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

SE doesn't have to prove anything, it's their service. If it wasn't allowed the ads would be taken down. Like parsing, they can't officially endorse it, but as long as you keep the info to private channels they don't have a problem with it.

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Parsing can be openly talked about without repercussion in any setting that does not allow harassment, and is such a complicated topic that it is a bad example to use.

Basically the rule with parsing is that "Third party applications that read data are not allowed", this means parsing is not allowed, but this is only on a technicality. The target of this rule is things like hunt trackers, botting tools, and market trackers, that would give players a fundamental advantage over other players. Yoshi P has publicly acknowledged the value of parsers in high end raiding scene across the entire MMO landscape, and has unofficially deemed parsers fine "so long as you keep it to yourself and don't harass people".

RMT is not allowed, period. thats what selling clears for real money is, it's a Real Money Transaction, and any mention of it ingame will get you banned. The ads however, do not endorse RMT, only the service, and therefore adhere to the terms of service. Programs like discord are completely allowed, and any mention of them is perfectly fine, and people will get away with it if they take it to private channels, in that sense you are right that talking about RMT in these channels is perfectly allowed. The catch is though, while you don't have to adhere to the ToS, you are also not protected by it if you use these channels, and SE will not listen to you if you get burned by your actions.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

So what proof does SE have to take the ads down from pf, SE cannot just go nope you are selling stuff for rl money based on hunches, they get sued, as annoying as they are without hard in game proof of them actively selling runs for rl money(they have to say it within the game so gl with that) SE cannot do anything despite it being against ToS.

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:confused: They can remove whatever they wish from the game. Removing a PF advertisement will not get them sued. What is it with people now adays and trying to file lawsuits over anything and everything.

Go to any lawyer and they will laugh you out of the office for trying to file a law suit cause a game company removed your party listing from their game. The game runs on their servers so they have the right to remove anything on that server including your party listing.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

So what proof does SE have to take the ads down from pf

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They don't need any. GMs and the STF need proof, but that's only because of the rules set for them.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

SE cannot just go nope you are selling stuff for rl money based on hunches

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Yes they can. They can say they've become aware of the loopholes being used for account piloting and real money sales and have decided to no longer allow content selling listings in the PF. They haven't done this so clearly they are allowed.

Remember they had proof of harassment going on in Feast and they would have proof of harassment involve parsing, yet Feast chat was removed and any mention of parsing puts you at risk.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Parsing can be openly talked about without repercussion in any setting that does not allow harassment

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Absolutely not. How do people still not get this? If it's against the ToS, if you get reported for it and if SE has proof, you will be penalized.

Pretend that instead of the current number of ads, there are about 50, all for services that accept real money and worded as they are now. Either nothing changes and RMT is allowed if kept to outside channels, or SE decides to do something, but if they did, what stops them from doing something now?

Well for those wishing to know. I decided to ask one "Ask for details in Discord" here is the result. Green is me, not sure if name shaming counts so to be safe censored it.
https://i.imgur.com/kcPlhA1.png

They blocked me as soon as I said too much. Just to make it 100% clear, I have never bought a clear nor plan too, simply asking for the sake of information.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Well for those wishing to know. I decided to ask one "Ask for details in Discord" here is the result. Green is me, not sure if name shaming counts so to be safe censored it.

They blocked me as soon as I said too much. Just to make it 100% clear, I have never bought a clear nor plan too, simply asking for the sake of information.

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Thank you, brave hero. I suppose when a tier is fresh the price is aimed towards whales and lazy Dubai oil barons.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

"Please can we discuss payment terms on discord so that we as a group, including people who are not in game can contribute to the sale" - Who are we to say this isn't happening, there is no evidence either way, and if there is then it IS reportable.

Basically your argument comes down to "because they have said this, I assume that they are doing something suspicious. My suspicion is highly subjective, taking into account bias and preconceived ideas of clear purchases, but I don't have any evidence that what I think is happening is actually happening". Of course there is always a chance that you are right, but your solution sets a precident on what people are allowed to say or do within the game.

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Yeah no, if a group is selling for gil they would have established prices before putting up a party finder in the first place, you are making excuses for RMT.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Well for those wishing to know. I decided to ask one "Ask for details in Discord" here is the result. Green is me, not sure if name shaming counts so to be safe censored it.
https://i.imgur.com/kcPlhA1.png

They blocked me as soon as I said too much. Just to make it 100% clear, I have never bought a clear nor plan too, simply asking for the sake of information.

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Case in point, thank you, no one saying they have to discuss payment terms on Discord is selling for just gil, there any many other examples of this on Reddit as well. I have a feeling people who don’t want to ban PFs that are demanding people go on Discord to discuss payment are RMT themselves.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

simply asking for the sake of information.

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It's not a matter of whether the sales are for real money, but whether the sales are being advertised in the PF using bots or multiple people with access to the same account.

Virtually all listings are for real money, are for gil but where the gil comes from doesn't matter or involve account piloting. Listings that are strictly carries for clean gil are a minority of a minority. Compare the number of that last group of players that would be affected by a prohibition on all content sales with the number affected by Feast chat removal and the inability to openly discuss parses. Insignificant, no? If SE had a problem with it, they would do something, but they don't so they haven't.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

not sure if name shaming counts so to be safe censored it.

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Yeah you wouldn't be able to post names but at the same time the info would assumed to be fake by the GMs and STF lol.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Yeah no, if a group is selling for gil they would

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Arguments like that always have a response to them and only serve to reinforce that real money sales are allowed if kept to outside channels. In this instance, you wouldn't list gil prices because having interested parties contact you gives you a better chance to convince them into buying and it also prevents competitors from undercutting you, not to mention some groups price match or offer deals on multiple purchases, so listing a price wouldn't do any good.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I have a feeling people who don’t want to ban PFs that are demanding people go on Discord to discuss payment are RMT themselves.

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The beauty of FFXIV's rules is the group contacted in that image can come into this thread, claim they're a group that only sells for gil and groups that sell for real money are a rarity that is being overblown and if Alpha tried to point out they were the ones contacted, Alpha's post would be removed and nothing would happen to any of the members.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Yeah no, if a group is selling for gil they would have established prices before putting up a party finder in the first place, you are making excuses for RMT.

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I'm not making excuses for RMT, I'm explaining why SE will never do anything about it. I have said repeatedly that you are most likely right, but the burden of the proof is still on the accuser no matter what my opinion of your accusation is.

Even the above evidence image isn't absolute proof. It is so easy to falsify an image like that, I would simply have a conversation with a friend and get them to write that out. I am absolutely not saying that, and I am in no way calling AlphaFox a liar, but the point is that it is not absolute proof. That is why SE uses their own ingame chat logs and doesn't accept screenshots in their reports, as only one of those is absolute proof.

As I said, stepping outside of the game also steps outside of the ToS, in both punishment and protection.

But I want to pay 1mill gil for that clear I can't do myself! Why should I be limited in PF for those offering?
That being said, it would be nice if there was a separate "For Sale" category. Maybe when Circles comes in a future patch, it may direct them more to those than Party Finder.

Trust me I had a feeling of the idea that it could be faked, no one really knows if I talked to the person (due to forced censoring) or if I made it up with an alt account or a friend.

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Originally Posted by JWag12787

But I want to pay 1mill gil for that clear I can't do myself! Why should I be limited in PF for those offering?
That being said, it would be nice if there was a separate "For Sale" category. Maybe when Circles comes in a future patch, it may direct them more to those than Party Finder.

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While that would be nice, unless it puts them at the top of the PF search like the Expert or 50/60/70, they won't use it.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Well for those wishing to know. I decided to ask one "Ask for details in Discord" here is the result. Green is me, not sure if name shaming counts so to be safe censored it.
https://i.imgur.com/kcPlhA1.png

They blocked me as soon as I said too much. Just to make it 100% clear, I have never bought a clear nor plan too, simply asking for the sake of information.

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I think the fact that you asked 800 or 8.00 was the thing that got you blocked to be honest as I am 100% certain you were not there to legit buy a run at that point, and so were the seller as well...

But no one here doubts they are selling for IRL currency. However, SE needs to PROVE it, not by necessity because laws enforces it but because of the horrible PR nightmare it would give them if people came out and told stories about them getting banned despite doing nothing that was a banworthy offense in the game, and could back their claim up with proof while SE could not back their ban up because they don't have access to Discord's chatlogs.