It makes zero sense for the PLD class to have three different skills for AoE

Circle of Scorn, Flash and Total Eclipse are three skills that can be consolidated into one or two skills.

Give Total Eclipse Flash's enmity gain and give Circle of Scorn Flash's blind for starters.

There's probably better ideas out there, but three 360 degree skills bloats the Paladin's hotbar.

Yo dawg I heard you liked AoE so we gave you AoE with your AoE so you can AoE while you AoE!

(Still has worse AoE than DRK...)

But yeah, Flash being incorporated into Total Eclipse makes sense especially in ShB after TP is gone so there's not even the fringe case of them using 2 different resources to justify their existence.

Circle of Scorn is different though, because it's an oGCD so it gets used even against single targets because it has no cost associated with it. Though, I could totally see it getting Flash's blind and just replacing Flash with Total Eclipse completely (Including the level at which it is learned so that PLD has a damaging AoE at the same level as WAR and DRK)

That said, technically, DRK has 5 AoE skills (Unleash, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain, Salted Earth and Quietus). It's just that most of these are oGCD's or have alternate effects/CD's to make them more justifiable.

PLD's issue is Flash and Total Eclipse fill the same role, which is spammable AoE just arbitrarily one has the enmity boost on and the other has the damage. (Though, it's similar thing for DRK with Unleash/Abyssal Drain where both have enmity boost just one does more damage and can also be used to gain life. While being TAoE instead of PBAoE...)

On a completely unrelated note... I kind of wish WAR had an AoE that could generate Beast Gauge so as to be able to build up for Steel Cyclone/Decimate while AoEing rather than having to decide between Overpower spam for AoE damage/enmity or ST combo's for gauge to use these AoE spenders...

I imagine one of them is going in ShB to be honest.

I hope it's Eclipse personally, and Flash upgrades in to a magic lightning AoE.

I think a lot of this will depend on the aftermath of the removal of TP. Ideally, you'd have a situation where Total Eclipse was a free, but lower damage baseline enmity tool, with a new holy magic styled sword skill that was buffed with Requiescat. Just look at Agrias from FFT for inspiration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

On a completely unrelated note... I kind of wish WAR had an AoE that could generate Beast Gauge so as to be able to build up for Steel Cyclone/Decimate while AoEing rather than having to decide between Overpower spam for AoE damage/enmity or ST combo's for gauge to use these AoE spenders...

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WAR has the best burst AoE out of any of the three tanks by a very large margin, in a game where burst is king. I don't think we need to make the most overpowered tank more overpowered, no pun intended. If the Vegas fanfest Q+A is any indication, it's high time to rein in WAR's damage output, and rightfully so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

WAR has the best burst AoE out of any of the three tanks by a very large margin, in a game where burst is king. I don't think we need to make the most overpowered tank more overpowered, no pun intended. If the Vegas fanfest Q+A is any indication, it's high time to rein in WAR's damage output, and rightfully so.

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*Sigh*

Can we not start this unmitigated anti-WAR bias crap again?

Especially not when we're talking about an aspect of tanking where DRK is literally the best of all 3 tanks, which is AoE damage output?

Yes, WAR has Inner Release which is nuts, but outside of that one specific CD every 90 seconds, DRK > both other tanks for AoE.

Also, when we're heading into a brand new expansion that will be changing all classes in a dramatic way, talking about how "Balanced" a class is or is not currently is moot.

AoE tanking almost always happens in short bursts, unless your dps are asleep. Once you get PLD and DRK to 70, you'll hopefully have a better appreciation of this.

DRK AoE tanking is probably the most interesting of the three (which isn't saying much), but that's just a reflection of the fact that it's one of the few situations in which DRK's resources actually get to syngerize and interact in interesting ways.

Also, if you don't want the discussion to involve WAR, then don't bring WAR buff requests into an unrelated topic, yeah? I've seen too many overpowered requests from the WAR community become reality this expansion, simply because the devs think that if they cater hard enough to you, people might actually want to tank in this game. The reverse is actually true. Let's not repeat the past, this coming expansion.

DRK aoe is consider better for the self-healing and mitigation it offers at the same time if you do it properly not for the damage witch WAR is superior easily specially since the encounters don't live more that 2 min and they have plenty strong CDs, so its mostly an illusion of being extremly good bcs feels and looks strong but they are more comparable that ppl thinks, DRK sustain himself better and WAR burn everything faster before that become a problem, and I don't think WAR need generate gauge when every time they use a gauge skill (except onslaught and upheaval) reduce the cast of infuriate already.

About OP I believe PLD need more aoe options, even a magic one that works with requiem cast like a direct upgrade of flash under requiem or something, his damage and aoe combinations are too basic and low to feel good to play with it at least for me.

I want Flash to get upgraded to Holiest of Holy in sbr.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Also, if you don't want the discussion to involve WAR, then don't bring WAR buff requests into an unrelated topic, yeah? I've seen too many overpowered requests from the WAR community become reality this expansion, simply because the devs think that if they cater hard enough to you, people might actually want to tank in this game. The reverse is actually true. Let's not repeat the past, this coming expansion.

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Whether or not the discussion involves WAR has no bearing on you coming in with your crying about WAR at every single chance you get.

Note that my suggestion had no relevance about damage output, merely asking for fluidity of an AoE rotation for WAR that actually works with the tools it has available.

Yet, because you so biased against WAR you instantly took it as an opportunity to rant about how "Overpowered" WAR is and take it as if I said "I wish they made WAR just instantly delete all other tanks when it used Overpower lelelelelelel"

I personally don’t believe in ability bloat.

But flash is the worst action in the game.

It looks bad, it sounds bad, it has the worst enmity gain, and does 0 damage.

While the blind is a nice aspect, that’s literally all it has going for it.

Please stop trying to play the game with1 hotbar though. I play on gamepad and have many empty slots, I also repeat “shield lob” and other actions on multiple hot bars, use all actions, and yes still have empty slots....

Why do people try to jam actions into just 2 bars and then refuse to limit break will always be beyond my comprehension. But hey I don’t pay your sub.




Edit:

Just to help clarify, If I removed the actions that are on my second hotbar off, that are on my first one... My second hotbar would have 6 empty slots, my third hot bar currently has 7 empty slots if I remove sustaining potions (used in Palace of the dead) and my role ability hot bar has 7 empty slots, which also has on it limit break and sprint.

So please. People. Stop trying to jam all your actions onto just 1-2 hot bars. Its really not dificult to cycle between 3 hot bars.... Then pressing R1+Square to switch to a role/general hot bar.

If you're a keyboard user having issues, try switching to gamepad? I thought keyboard was supposed to be "superior" anyway?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Whether or not the discussion involves WAR has no bearing on you coming in with your crying about WAR at every single chance you get.

Note that my suggestion had no relevance about damage output, merely asking for fluidity of an AoE rotation for WAR that actually works with the tools it has available.

Yet, because you so biased against WAR you instantly took it as an opportunity to rant about how "Overpowered" WAR is and take it as if I said "I wish they made WAR just instantly delete all other tanks when it used Overpower lelelelelelel"

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Asking to generate more gauge with an aoe skill, with you already do by shorten the recast of infuriate with decimate and steel, means increase the number of decimate/steel cyclone per second that have pretty high potency already, so it will increase WAR dps on mass pulling equal of the amount of decimates you will gain on the same window of time and the extra dps gain by using constantly aoe skills instead of combos to generate more gauge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shao32

Asking to generate more gauge with an aoe skill, with you already do by shorten the recast of infuriate with decimate and steel, means increase the number of decimate/steel cyclone per second that have pretty high potency already, so it will increase WAR dps on mass pulling equal of the amount of decimates you will gain on the same window of time and the extra dps gain by using constantly aoe skills instead of combos to generate more gauge.

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Unless there was some sort of new expansion that would reshuffle skills and DPS outputs based on new skills and the like that could increase this functionality without it impacting overall DPS output.

Hmmm... If only there was such a thing coming out soon...

No, better just cry some more about WAR's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

I personally don’t believe in ability bloat.

But flash is the worst action in the game.

It looks bad, it sounds bad, it has the worst enmity gain, and does 0 damage.

While the blind is a nice aspect, that’s literally all it has going for it.

Please stop trying to play the game with1 hotbar though. I play on gamepad and have many empty slots, I also repeat “shield lob” and other actions on multiple hot bars, use all actions, and yes still have empty slots....

Why do people try to jam actions into just 2 bars and then refuse to limit break will always be beyond my comprehension. But hey I don’t pay your sub.




Edit:

Just to help clarify, If I removed the actions that are on my second hotbar off, that are on my first one... My second hotbar would have 6 empty slots, my third hot bar currently has 7 empty slots if I remove sustaining potions (used in Palace of the dead) and my role ability hot bar has 7 empty slots, which also has on it limit break and sprint.

So please. People. Stop trying to jam all your actions onto just 1-2 hot bars. Its really not dificult to cycle between 3 hot bars.... Then pressing R1+Square to switch to a role/general hot bar.

If you're a keyboard user having issues, try switching to gamepad? I thought keyboard was supposed to be "superior" anyway?

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You can actually have up to 48 skills on controller without having to switch hotbars using the L+R buttons and the wCross hotbars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Unless there was some sort of new expansion that would reshuffle skills and DPS outputs based on new skills and the like that could increase this functionality without it impacting overall DPS output.

Hmmm... If only there was such a thing coming out soon...

No, better just cry some more about WAR's.

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*Double post because mobile*

You always seem to come off as being personally attacked when someone mentions WAR needing to be reigned in a bit. I do play WAR and enjoy the heck out of it, but I will agree it does need some reigning in of its skillset.

I think Paladin AoE is too simple. It shouldn't be condensed but expanded. Scorn certainly shouldn't be combined with anything else since it's OGCD. I'd like to see Flash become a damaging attack somehow during AoE to break up the Total Eclipse button mashing, maybe it could use Requiescat in a manner similar to Holy Spirit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Unless there was some sort of new expansion that would reshuffle skills and DPS outputs based on new skills and the like that could increase this functionality without it impacting overall DPS output.

Hmmm... If only there was such a thing coming out soon...

No, better just cry some more about WAR's.

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Dev's show they concerns about tank dps, so you should take this seriously, what are you asking is have more sustained resource generation, thats ok but you have to be aware for a job so heavily build on burst windows will have to get potency reduction for some if not all his aoe skills to compensate that in 5.0, i don't consider WAR/tanks in general need more aoe damage at all since everything dies to quick already, only PLD as much need some extra dps to be more equal to the rest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I imagine one of them is going in ShB to be honest.

I hope it's Eclipse personally, and Flash upgrades in to a magic lightning AoE.

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Hmmm... to me that's a tough one, I like the look of Eclipse but I agree that it would potentially be prudent to consolidate the two abilities into one functionally.

If I were to do that I would just remove Eclipse and provide PLD with a trait that upgrades Flash to give it some damage as well.
I would keep the holy light theme to it and call it White Light as a little nod to the localization in FFII(FFIV) on SNES in the US where they changed the name of Holy to White.
Visually it would keep the visual effects of Flash but add to it where little white circular motes of light crackle in the area of effect, sort of like how some fireworks look. The little circular white motes would be an homage to the visual representation of the Holy spell in early FF games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

You always seem to come off as being personally attacked when someone mentions WAR needing to be reigned in a bit. I do play WAR and enjoy the heck out of it, but I will agree it does need some reigning in of its skillset.

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I also agree that WAR is in need of some reigning in of its skillset.

Most notably, Inner Release in its current incarnation is way too ridiculous in how powerful it is due to condensing 40% of WAR's overall damage output into a 10s window per 90 seconds. Which also has the side effect of making the rest of WAR's damaging kit feel crap in comparison.

As well as other parts of their kit such as how Holmgang interacts with raid designs (Though, part of this can be mitigated via not pushing the majority of dangerous damage from raid bosses into Tankbusters that are spaced out so sparsely)

However, when people critique literally every part of WAR's kit and try and push out any attempts to ask for changes to make the class more interesting to play (Independently of numerical balance changes) because of the sole reason of "WAR is OVERPOWERED!!!!!11!!1!!" then it's just asinine.

Yes, WAR can be considered overtuned in some aspects, some of which have persisted for a long time. But people seem to be so aggressively anti-WAR that they don't seem to accept anything that isn't "NERF WAR UNTIL THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY GARBAGE. DELETE THEM FROM THE GAME!!!! NERF NERF NERF!"

To say nothing about the fact that half the time, the problem isn't even with WAR being too strong in a specific area they complain about, but rather a specific tank they like being weak in said area (I.e. PLD is the only Tank that has crap snap enmity, but these anti-WAR haters claim that WAR is far and above all other Tanks when DRK also has good snap enmity. PLD is the only Tank that hasn't got any mobility but again WAR is the supreme ultra-mobile mega-gosu Tank despite DRK also having mobility (Albeit a little bit more awkward because their mobility skill is also a DPS gain to spam on CD) etc.)

This alone wouldn't be a problem, if they kept to themselves. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However these people see WAR in a post and IMMEDIATELY start crying about how OP OP OP OP WAR is and start derailing a thread in order to discuss how they believe WAR is so OP that the game should be called Final Warrior: A Warrior Reborn, HeavensWarrior, StormWarrior, WarriorBringers because they're the best class in the entire game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shao32

Dev's show they concerns about tank dps, so you can't take this seriously, what are you asking is have more sustained resource generation thats ok but you have to be aware for a job so heavily build on burst windows will have to get potency reduction for some if not all his aoe skills to compensate that in 5.0, i don't consider WAR/tanks in general need more aoe damage at all since everything dies to quick already, only PLD as much need some extra dps to be more equal to the rest.

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Once again, I never posted that I wished for WAR's to have more DPS. At all. Ever.

I merely asked for a more fluid rotation. DRK's get to generate and use their gauge in AoE situations. PLD's get to generate and use their gauge in AoE situations (Though, it's less impactful due to the way Sheltron vs multiple incoming attacks works, however, I wouldn't mind seeing them get another Gauge spender that would work better in AoE). WAR's have to choose between AoE or Gauge generation.

Like, WAR's literally have 2 AoE gauge spenders, but outside of Inner Release, they're not particularly usable, because it's simply better damage and enmity to spam Overpower instead of ST building gauge. Maybe you have an Infuriate to use too... But even then, it's often not worth it to give up on the 5% Crit/Parry you'd have from having a full gauge to use a single AoE spender.

Of course, suggestions I make such as these, take into account that 5.0 suggests to be a significant overhaul of all classes, due to how TP removal will effect things, to say nothing about being tuned for new level 70-80 skills or reworks to existing skills.

Since, at the end of the day, I don't want any class to be OP. I don't play WAR because it's "OP", I play it because back when I made my character in 2.0, WAR is the job that caught my interest. Even though back in 2.0 WAR was garbage balance wise. I want it to continue to be a job that keeps my interest and frankly, SB has been a huge blow to that because they removed a lot of interesting aspects of the job as well as creating the current incarnation of Inner Release, which I hate with a passion.

I honestly think that Inner Release is the biggest mistake made with the WAR job. Since not only is the current iteration just plain not fun because it's just a matter of "Press it then spam Fell Cleave" because it completely takes resources out of the equation (To say nothing on how it nullifies Direct Hit as a stat too) but also it causes balance concerns such as the ones that crop up in threads like these where because it contributes so much of WAR's overall damage and condenses it into such a small timeframe that it gets additional advantages when so many fight designs revolve around burst windows.

Leave Circle of Scorn alone, but I agree about consolidating Flash and Total Eclipse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Once again, I never posted that I wished for WAR's to have more DPS. At all. Ever.

I merely asked for a more fluid rotation. DRK's get to generate and use their gauge in AoE situations. PLD's get to generate and use their gauge in AoE situations (Though, it's less impactful due to the way Sheltron vs multiple incoming attacks works, however, I wouldn't mind seeing them get another Gauge spender that would work better in AoE). WAR's have to choose between AoE or Gauge generation.

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you sugestion was generate more gauge with aoes, aka overpower, to fuel more decimates/steel and don't rely on single target combos in case you need it to gain more gauge.
this cause you get more resources to use more decimates and since decimate/steel have way more potency that overpower (130 vs 200/280) WAR will generate way more dps bcs of that since you will increase the amount tof decimates aviable per encounter outside of inner release.

you didn't ask for a dps increase directly, what you don't notice you ask for a big dps increase indirectly even if ins't was you intention since you didn't add WAR will need potencty ajustment to acomodate you request and don't skyrocket his already big ungabunga dps and that's why some take it like a overpowered sugestion coming from no where, nothing more.

I can see the two being consolidated, but if the spin did something other than just damage then id say keep it around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shao32

you sugestion was generate more gauge with aoes, aka overpower, to fuel more decimates/steel and don't rely on single target combos in case you need it to gain more gauge.
this cause you get more resources to use more decimates and since decimate/steel have way more potency that overpower (130 vs 200/280) WAR will generate way more dps bcs of that since you will increase the amount tof decimates aviable per encounter outside of inner release.

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I said generate gauge with AN AoE skill. Not necessarily Overpower. Said AoE skill with gauge increase need not be as potent as Overpower. It need not be Overpower itself either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shao32

since you didn't add WAR will need potencty ajustment to acomodate you request and don't skyrocket his already big ungabunga dps and that's why some take it like a overpowered sugestion coming from no where, nothing more.

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That was implied, because unlike some people, I'm not an idiot who thinks that anything that is given to a class it literally just going to be slapped on to the class as is with no adjustments at all.

Anyone with half a brain could have thought that maybe, instead of asking WAR to get massive AoE DPS output, that maybe, I kind of wanted Overpower to be tuned down in order to push some of the AoE DPS outside of Inner Release towards the Gauge spenders?

Since, why the hell would I want to make an overpowered suggestion?

I've never done so anywhere else on these forums, nor did I advocate any such massively ovepowering suggestions within that original post in regards to PLD. So what, other than your incredible bias against WAR lead you to believe I was asking for a straight up huge buff to WAR AoE DPS?

Honestly, I've been putting in feedback for various jobs for the past few months and literally, every single one of them has me trying to suggest gameplay improvements that don't directly translate into outright massive buffs to said jobs. Yet, the second I mention anything about WAR, suddenly both you any Lyth jump on me and accuse me of trying to merely add a bunch of crap onto current WAR. Even despite me stating, on multiple occasions, that I fully expect WAR to be rebalanced in 5.0 and hopefully done in a way that tones down the areas where they overperform. Just like I hope that PLD and DRK get rebalanced to get boosts to the areas where they underperform and toned down in areas they overperform.

I don't care much about if WAR is the strongest tank or weakest tank in the game. So long as it can do the content and its fun to play (Which has always been how I've viewed "Metas" and has lead me to main tank in other games as a raid leader on classes that have been considered "Garbage" tier and I've always done fine because playing a class you like > playing a "Meta" class you don't). As such, there's no reason for me to suggest unnecessary buffs trying to overpower the job.

I wouldn't mind seeing flash's enmity baked into TE, either by removing flash and learing TE at flash's level or putting in a trait that turns flash into TE.

I know it's controversial but we could also save three button slots by condensing combos into RoH combo button, goring blade combo button and RA combo button.

There are a few reasons why I brought up the removal of TP from the game. A lot of what happens with our AoE system is going to depend on how this gets implemented.

Right now, every AoE in the game has a resource cost attached. If you bottom out, then you're stuck with single target moves until your resources tick back up. When TP is removed, one of two things could happen: we could see some of these AoE actions become free, or we could see an alternative resource attached in place of TP (i.e. MP).

If TP costs are simply removed, then some odd things happen. PLD's primary dps AoE becomes free (Total Eclipse), and paradoxically cheaper than their zero damage enmity AoE (Flash). WAR's overpower becomes free, giving them better sustain (and bear in mind, Overpower isn't all that far behind Total Eclipse in potency). I think that in order to happen, you'd probably see everyone have a baseline AoE enmity move that was free, with a dps AoE that cost resources to use (i.e. MP for PLD, gauge for WAR, blood for DRK).

If TP costs are replaced with MP costs, then you run into a situation where Flash and Total Eclipse are both competing for the same resource, while the other tanks can spread their resource costs across two different bars. I think this still points to the fact that Flash isn't fun to use, and PLD would benefit from having Total Eclipse moved down to Level 6 as a primary enmity AoE, while gaining a magic-based dps AoE fuelled by MP.

With regards to why WAR can't generate gauge by using AoE moves (be they GCD or oGCD), it's because Decimate provides so much burst, and Steel Cyclone provides so much self-sustain. If you wanted to implement your suggestion fairly, you'd have to give a fairly substantial nerf to both of these abilities, not Overpower. Otherwise, you're running into a situation where you're just buffing WAR's sustained dps without compromising burst at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

[...]the game should be called Final Warrior: A Warrior Reborn, HeavensWarrior, StormWarrior, WarriorBringers because they're the best class in the entire game.

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I was going to suggest "World of WARcraft".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

snip

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I highly suspect that they will just consolidate TP and MP into one single resource. Functionally it will be mostly the same to what we currently have, just no separate TP and MP, just whatever they call the new resource.

If they go this route they will likely remove any resource/tp cost from combo actions while retaining a resource cost for other abilities like Overpower.

As for Total Eclipse and Flash, that's a tough one to predict how it will be handled since the dueling resources and switching off between the two actions was sort of the defining aspect of PLD AoE, but I wouldn't be surprised if they went the much requested route and removed one of them and just consolidated it all into one ability that did enmity and damage in one ability, maybe upgrading Flash with a trait.
If they do keep both abilities they will probably make them similar to Unleash/Abyssal Drain where Flash costs a lot less and Total Eclipse costs more.

In the end we won't know for sure until they reveal the combat changes coming with ShB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I said generate gauge with AN AoE skill. Not necessarily Overpower. Said AoE skill with gauge increase need not be as potent as Overpower. It need not be Overpower itself either.



That was implied, because unlike some people, I'm not an idiot who thinks that anything that is given to a class it literally just going to be slapped on to the class as is with no adjustments at all.

Anyone with half a brain could have thought that maybe, instead of asking WAR to get massive AoE DPS output, that maybe, I kind of wanted Overpower to be tuned down in order to push some of the AoE DPS outside of Inner Release towards the Gauge spenders?

Since, why the hell would I want to make an overpowered suggestion?

I've never done so anywhere else on these forums, nor did I advocate any such massively ovepowering suggestions within that original post in regards to PLD. So what, other than your incredible bias against WAR lead you to believe I was asking for a straight up huge buff to WAR AoE DPS?

Honestly, I've been putting in feedback for various jobs for the past few months and literally, every single one of them has me trying to suggest gameplay improvements that don't directly translate into outright massive buffs to said jobs. Yet, the second I mention anything about WAR, suddenly both you any Lyth jump on me and accuse me of trying to merely add a bunch of crap onto current WAR. Even despite me stating, on multiple occasions, that I fully expect WAR to be rebalanced in 5.0 and hopefully done in a way that tones down the areas where they overperform. Just like I hope that PLD and DRK get rebalanced to get boosts to the areas where they underperform and toned down in areas they overperform.

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well i saw many crazy stuff become reality on WAR during this expansion i don't expect less.

so for being clear i just adding feedback to you suggestion, by desing you can't give WAR better gauge generation to aoes and you suggestion imply a nerf on the potency of certain skills, i just say overpower bcs its the only skill WAR have that don't cost gauge except you expect get a new one this expansion, everything is posible, but again it will imply big potency down to decimate and steel cyclone to add that and i hope you are aware about that, sustain comes at the cost of burst.

despite about WAR current status coments was since you stated DRK have the best dps aoe, and thats not correct, DRK is the best on aoe for desing and gameplay, numbers are another thing, i don't thing anyone want to come again with a endless discusion about current tank status specially since looks like we all want the same and we know we are not agree on some things no matter what.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shao32

sustain comes at the cost of burst.

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Well, clearly this is something I'm willing to take, given that I don't want Inner Release to exist in its current state, which is literally the driving force behind WAR's burst, without IR WAR's burst is nothing spectacular.

Even with Berserk, WAR's burst was limited. Since, at best, you could toss out 3 Fell Cleaves with a full gauge and Infuriate.

Inner Release is just a terribly designed skill. Like, yes, I think WAR should err towards burst damage as a theme but no, I don't think condensing 40% of their total damage output to 10s windows of spamming 1 skill is a particularly good way of doing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shao32

despite about WAR current status coments was since you stated DRK have the best dps aoe, and thats not correct, DRK is the best on aoe for desing and gameplay, numbers are another thing

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WAR has best AoE DPS only when IR is up. Without it, DRK is by far the best AoE DPS due to Salted Earth and Abyssal Drain + Quietus spam even more so when without Grit so can use Blood Weapon and get the full benefit from Darkside.

Unless you're think about when leveling up, in which case, yes, while leveling up WAR is far and away the best AoE Tank in the game and it's not even close. Due to PLD and DRK not getting their spam AoE skills with comparable damage to Overpower until much later (50 for PLD getting Eclipse + Circle and 64 for DRK getting Quietus, Abyssal and Salted)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shao32

i don't thing anyone want to come again with a endless discusion about current tank status specially since looks like we all want the same and we know we are not agree on some things no matter what.

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Then why are you and Lyth so quick to jump onto anyone that suggests anything about WAR?

This is supposed to be a thread about PLD and I make a small aside about wishing for a more interesting AoE rotation for WAR given the topic is about AoE and making changes to PLD's AoE rotation and skill availability and all of a sudden out of nowhere there's people making like 1-1.5 pages of comments about how OP WAR is so they can't have any actually fun skills.

Same as in that other thread which was supposed be about Gunbreaker, but then someone mentioned WAR and then it was like 5-10 pages of "WAR is OP" crying...

Like, I'm almost getting to the point of hoping 5.0 craps on DRK's just to spite you two, even against my own wish that DRK becomes actually really awesome and fun and useful. Just because it's INSANE that it's literally not possible to mention "The Job That Must Not Be Named" without you two coming with your tirade about how WAR is so OP they're not allowed anything.

I just want my class to be fun. I don't want it to be OP, I just want it to be fun. So I would like to be able suggest ideas that could increase the fun of the class without having to deal with the WAR Police whom have a personal vendetta against WAR so that they cannot tolerate the existence of any kind of talking about WAR unless it's a cry for nerfs.

Anyway, trying to get something on topic and somewhat relevant to the thread:

With the consolidation of the resources and all that jazz, in addition to my previous mention of possibly giving PLD a Gauge spender that's useful in AoE...

What if they ended up making Total Eclipse their spam AoE ability and then altered Flash to function as a Gauge spender for AoE situations?

So, you'd Sheltron vs Single Targets and Flash vs Multiple. As opposed to now where you either throw out a mediocre Sheltron or just sit on full gauge because there's little worth in blocking 20% of one of the like 10+ attacks coming in per second...

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Originally Posted by Kalise

PLD's issue is Flash and Total Eclipse fill the same role, which is spammable AoE just arbitrarily one has the enmity boost on and the other has the damage. (Though, it's similar thing for DRK with Unleash/Abyssal Drain where both have enmity boost just one does more damage and can also be used to gain life. While being TAoE instead of PBAoE...)

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Not quite, though. Flash does at least offer mitigation in a way that is wasted if spammed, just as Anticipation would be wasted with, say, Raw Intuition.

I'd have to argue that now that AD's enmity modifier has been greatly increased relative to its initial state, it and Unleash are more redundant than Flash and Total Eclipse.

In any case, though, I do hope we can see them consolidated in a satisfying way, rather than just another trimming of mechanics and/or capacity.

Also, to be fair: Goring Blade has the best AoE animation in PLD's kit. A shame it, like most skills that cleave everything in front of you in their appearance, is single-target...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

AoE tanking almost always happens in short bursts, unless your dps are asleep.

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Yet you don't want to siphon any of Warrior's AoE power from their burst into their sustain?

If you haven't noticed from Kalise's posts you've already responded to by now, there's rarely anything suggested explicitly at no cost to capacity to balance out the adjustment unless a job or some capacity therein is specifically undertuned. We're going into a new expansion; if someone makes a suggestion for gameplay that would increase, say, sustain, the base assumption would be that something else is being rebalanced to compensate (e.g. Warrior's herp-derp spam the Decimate AoE burst).

You've been given a suggestion that would almost certainly favor the same trajectory you apparently prefer (curtailing WAR's insane burst AoE), yet you instead use the opportunity solely to lecture the poster on the evils of Warrior as it stands now (at the brink of an expansion) and to snidely discredit them... Hmm.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

This alone wouldn't be a problem, if they kept to themselves. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However these people see WAR in a post and IMMEDIATELY start crying about how OP OP OP OP WAR is and start derailing a thread in order to discuss how they believe WAR is so OP that the game should be called Final Warrior: A Warrior Reborn, HeavensWarrior, StormWarrior, WarriorBringers because they're the best class in the entire game.

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Meh, Warriors have to take some of the blame for this to be honest.

Not you personally mind, but in general a decent chunk of WAR players have been incredibly obnoxious about their top spot. Busting in to threads about the other tanks, or even other jobs in general, to spam the place up with 'Blue DPS' 'Man mode' & 'Put on your big boy subligar and grab an axe' type rubbish.

I mean, you're not spamming tired half a decade old memes or anything, but you did come in to a thread about Paladin AoE and then end your post talking about Warrior AoE and how Warrior AoE could use some changes to make Warrior play better, and now half the posts in here are about Warrior and you're complaining about how other people derail conversations about your job ;)

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

I personally don’t believe in ability bloat.

But flash is the worst action in the game.

It looks bad, it sounds bad, it has the worst enmity gain, and does 0 damage.

While the blind is a nice aspect, that’s literally all it has going for it.

Please stop trying to play the game with1 hotbar though. I play on gamepad and have many empty slots, I also repeat “shield lob” and other actions on multiple hot bars, use all actions, and yes still have empty slots....

Why do people try to jam actions into just 2 bars and then refuse to limit break will always be beyond my comprehension. But hey I don’t pay your sub.




Edit:

Just to help clarify, If I removed the actions that are on my second hotbar off, that are on my first one... My second hotbar would have 6 empty slots, my third hot bar currently has 7 empty slots if I remove sustaining potions (used in Palace of the dead) and my role ability hot bar has 7 empty slots, which also has on it limit break and sprint.

So please. People. Stop trying to jam all your actions onto just 1-2 hot bars. Its really not dificult to cycle between 3 hot bars.... Then pressing R1+Square to switch to a role/general hot bar.

If you're a keyboard user having issues, try switching to gamepad? I thought keyboard was supposed to be "superior" anyway?

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I actually use every hotbar available, that doesn't change the fact about what I'm addressing in the thread.

Also, what's with the unnecessary rant that ended up coming off as pretentious and presumptuous? Limit Break? Pay my sub? Keyboard being superior? What?

Flash needs to deal damage and that should help going forward. PLD has the highest skill bloat so I expect PLD to get the most cuts this upcoming expansion.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Meh, Warriors have to take some of the blame for this to be honest.

Not you personally mind, but in general a decent chunk of WAR players have been incredibly obnoxious about their top spot. Busting in to threads about the other tanks, or even other jobs in general, to spam the place up with 'Blue DPS' 'Man mode' & 'Put on your big boy subligar and grab an axe' type rubbish.

I mean, you're not spamming tired half a decade old memes or anything, but you did come in to a thread about Paladin AoE and then end your post talking about Warrior AoE and how Warrior AoE could use some changes to make Warrior play better, and now half the posts in here are about Warrior and you're complaining about how other people derail conversations about your job ;)

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It isn't really the warrior players' fault that they picked the job that was actually designed better than its competitors. It also isn't their fault that a clear favoritism on the side of the dev-team exists.

Took all 2 years of complaining for HW PLD to become the beast it is in Stormblood. Took SE less than a patch of complaining about WAR to be COMPLETELY REWORKED, TWICE!! (2.1 and 4.1). But I think it has to do with the attitude of the tanks and how they "complain".

Yes, attitude matters a lot. While warriors have a lot going on for them and their toolkit leaves little to complain about tbh despite there is still some to be desired. There is always something to be improved on after all. Specially in areas that make the job fun to play instead of 10 seconds of fun and 80 of sleeping. But what ends up really happening is warriors either give actual feedback, or just come in to boast how big their... axes are.

On the other hand, you find the other two jobs' complaints are always about what the other jobs have and they don't, completely ignoring what they have on themselves. PLDs cry about no dashing regardless of completely nullifying knockback and the ability to share that with someone else as well via cover. Heck, even DRK managed to complain about WAR's "mobility". Instead of, you know, being mature about discussing the job's actual problems.

Don't get me wrong, the good threads do happen, and a lot of PLD's and DRK's issues are legit. A lot of Lyth's threads about DRK's design are VERY good (you can see them around here on the tank forums). This thread discussing PLD's AoE is another example. But these are, sadly, the minority among the sea of "why do they have it and I don't" cesspool. Maybe that's why WAR gets buffed so quickly while PLD and DRK complaints get ignored. It is very hard to take "give us what they have" seriously because it only looks like jealousy. Just go to the DPS forums and see how well received BLM's requests for Raise are.

As for Kalise, he/she has a point, this is about AoE skills and resource consolidation, it reminded them of WAR and DRK's AoE, and as such, stated what they wish to happen for the other jobs to have their AoE be more fun. Kalise had no intention of hijacking a PLD thread to discuss how OP WAR is. It's other people that did. Just like how I mentioned that stance dancing wasn't something to build on in a game that disfavors stances in the Gunbreaker thread and hell broke loose about how WAR is so OP it doesn't need its tank stance locked ability Inner Beast (which was relegated to "useless status" due to the stance that it is locked behind is "useless") that made a 5 page thread into 25.

I have nothing against their opinions either. If they think a job is OP or UP and have good data to back it up that isn't "I feel it is so" it is fine. And if they do not have said data, then we'll just agree to disagree. I'm not gonna hate them for it. And to be fair, WAR, by design, is at fault of being borderline OP. This is even more exacerbated by the job's popularity, both, for the "meta", the amount of players that enjoy playing it whither for thematic reasons, playstyle or just FotM chasing. When you have twice as many WAR as the other 2 jobs combined, you are bound to find these EXTREMELY good players discovering the shenanigans it can pull off as opposed to certain underplayed jobs *cough*DRK*cough*. But again, this isn't about tank Balance. This is just stating how silly this anti-WAR bias that started in 3.0 is getting at.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

It isn't really the warrior players' fault that they picked the job that was actually designed better than its competitors. It also isn't their fault that a clear favoritism on the side of the dev-team exists.

Took all 2 years of complaining for HW PLD to become the beast it is in Stormblood. Took SE less than a patch of complaining about WAR to be COMPLETELY REWORKED, TWICE!! (2.1 and 4.1). But I think it has to do with the attitude of the tanks and how they "complain".

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Loudly and constantly? lol.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

On the other hand, you find the other two jobs' complaints are always about what the other jobs have and they don't, completely ignoring what they have on themselves. PLDs cry about no dashing regardless of completely nullifying knockback and the ability to share that with someone else as well via cover. Heck, even DRK managed to complain about WAR's "mobility". Instead of, you know, being mature about discussing the job's actual problems.

<snip>

But these are, sadly, the minority among the sea of "why do they have it and I don't" cesspool. Maybe that's why WAR gets buffed so quickly while PLD and DRK complaints get ignored. It is very hard to take "give us what they have" seriously because it only looks like jealousy.

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Dark Knights didn't really complain about the lack of knockback immunity until Warrior got it, before that it was seen as a 'Paladin thing'.

Paladins didn't really complain about lack of gap closer until Warrior got one. Before that having a gap closer was seen as a 'Dark Knight thing'.

Dark Knight didn't really complain about the lack of party shield until, again, Warrior got given one. Before that the party shield was a 'Paladin thing'.

Paladin and Dark Knight had their own unique tools, and Warrior got given versions of those tools, of course it's going to result in complaints about us non-WARs not getting the same access.

It might ease up a bit when Gunbreaker comes out, but right now with three tanks, when just one has something then it's a cool thing that fleshes out their identity, when two have something then the majority of tanks have it and it's seen as a 'tank thing' that their job lacks, and it's always the same job tipping the balance.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

<snip>

But again, this isn't about tank Balance. This is just stating how silly this anti-WAR bias that started in 3.0 is getting at.

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Eh, I was being a bit tongue in cheek, I don't really have a problem with them bringing up Warrior AoE.

it's in part fault of both, 1 side by SE to clear create favoritism over WAR on balance efforts and those who take rude actitudes about his job and others, i saw many threats this years of WAR man mode, WAR one man army, WAR rules,perfect desing baby, PLD never should tank, DRK is trash memes all around here and other places.

at the same time nobody here say a word about WAR mains when we talk about feedback but mostly we complaing about SE prioroties and some just get salty about this.

i don't think PLD or DRK give just worse feedback across the years at all, looking at heavensward PLD feedback was pretty clear pointing PLD problems and SE just ignore it mostly or say it's not necesary like PLD blocking magic to in the end of the expansion recognize WAR was op and PLD needs block magic, at the same time DRK feedback on stormblood, nobody say a word about WARs and his feedback, ppl just focus on give the best feedback about DRK and his innumerable flaws in the best way posible but SE again show favoritism about WAR and that generate a anti-WAR feedback meme we still see today, if WAR say a word they will be buffed again, what buff WAR will get this patch?, another letter another day without DRK mention on it ect ect, action-reaction.

as i will say it never was the "why do they have it and I don't" actitude you spreading non-WAR mains have but more "¿why WAR is getting everything the other 2 have but better?" specially since the "why do they have it and I don't" was more around WAR side when they ask for an aoe shield.

it's dosen't matter, WAR can be cleary the most OP thing on the earth you can't say a word or blood will run, 6 years of 1 job ruling a role it's not what i call balance, and not everything can be show as math proofs since we lack the formulas to calculate like the limit break and the effort/trivialize oportunity-cost and versatility, the balance is about how the kits intereact with the content too not only numbers despite numbers are one of the most important thing, all being said.

so Kalise give a fair feedback, but missing some things to make it looks better when "WAR gets everything" memes are all day around in a forum where you can read the post in many tones it can sounds good or bad depending of the panorama specially if you post that in a threat that is not WAR feedback, we can discuss the WAR coment on the gunbreaker threat but i considering, looking at WAR history, expect that gunbreaker not being overshadow by WAR midgthy perfect desing its a pretty fair expectation in a "what you expect of gunbreaker" threat.

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Originally Posted by shao32

as i will say it never was the "why do they have it and I don't" actitude you spreading non-WAR mains have but more "¿why WAR is getting everything the other 2 have but better?" specially since the "why do they have it and I don't" was more around WAR side when they ask for an aoe shield.

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Wait, WAR's ASKED for an AoE shield?

That sounds bizarre. Especially since before the random Shake it Off implementation, PLD was literally the only Tank with an AoE shield and it wasn't even a particularly major part of their toolkit (It still isn't to this day. It's "Okay" but it is generally overshadowed by their other tools such as Cover, Intervention and Passage of Arms). I would be most confused with WAR's whom actually would have suggested such a thing.

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Originally Posted by shao32

it's dosen't matter, WAR can be cleary the most OP thing on the earth you can't say a word or blood will run

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You can. Just make a thread about it.

Don't just hijack literally every other thread in existence that mentions WAR in the slightest. Actually create a thread for the sole purpose of discussing how OP WAR is and then talk as much as you like about it.

That's the main issue, y'all have these strong feelings that you want to talk about whenever you can but none of you bother to actually make a thread where discussing it in detail is actually topical.

Instead, you wait until you see someone casually reference WAR in a somewhat related way to a different topic (I.e. In this thread about AoE of a Tank I reference both other Tanks AoEs. In that Gunbreaker thread someone reference *Gasp* another Tank that the job will have to compete with, in design as well as balance) and then start to spew out your thoughts on "WAR is OP" irregardless of how relevant it is to the topic.

Since, discussing one of the 3, soon 4 Tanks within a topic on the TANK Subforum is not inherently a faux pas. Especially if one also has wholly on-topic discussion within their post (As my initial post did in fact discuss the topic at hand, which is that of PLD's AoE. I merely also brought up a side note of WAR given that this thread on the whole ends up referring to Tank AoEs in general given that some of the design around PLD's AoE also features in DRK's AoE where they too have a similar case of a more damaging skill just taking place of an AoE they get at the early levels)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Wait, WAR's ASKED for an AoE shield?

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WAR's generally asked for raid utility. They asked for SiO to do something.
SE saw an "easy" fix to address both those points in one. (read: easy == simple/lazy/little work required)

yes they did, one of the comon most request of WAR back in 4.0 is giving utility to WAR in form of a party defensive support skill, the most comon sugestion whas an aoe thrill of battle, expand his iriginal effect to all the party or some kind of defensive mitigation.

here some of the threats thats include a variety of sugestions about party utility, sorry if im not specific with the big one, phone and such.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-potential-fix

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...r-Utility-Idea

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...eedback-Thread

when someone claim we are "balanced" i considering i can disagree and express my opinion about it, and most of the time involves the extremes of why isnt consider balanced since balance perspective comes from 2 or more sides, in this case WAR ruling and DRK gutted.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

WAR's generally asked for raid utility. They asked for SiO to do something.
SE saw an "easy" fix to address both those points in one. (read: easy == simple/lazy/little work required)

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Originally Posted by shao32

yes they did, one of the comon most request of WAR back in 4.0 is giving utility to WAR in form of a party defensive support skill, the most comon sugestion whas an aoe thrill of battle, expand his iriginal effect to all the party or some kind of defensive mitigation.

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Oh, so they merely asked for party utility.

Thus you make it seem like they were saying "We don't have an AoE shield like PLD, we should get one!" to further fuel WAR hate...

In fact, no-one asked for an AoE shield at all from what I can see. Instead looking at things like TBN's single target shield but as a health buff instead. Or otherwise AoE Thrill of Battle, which would have been more thematic than an AoE shield.

It was SE that decided to make SiO into an AoE shield. It was not down to WAR's asking for it.

I personally, don't like SiO. I feel it's out of place in WAR. In the same vein, I'd still like it if WAR and DRK had some party utility so as to not have PLD having literally all of it. However, done so in ways that is thematic to WAR and DRK and won't be just copying a PLD skill.

However this is off-topic here. It would make much more sense for me to discuss it in a WAR 5.0 wishlist thread (Much like other roles subforums have for various classes), but I'm afraid to make one because I know it will inevitably just be drowned out by anti-WAR hate posts from most likely 2 very vocal posters whom neither wish to create wishlist threads about their preferred jobs nor wish to create a thread to complain about WAR.

A shield equaling 10% max HP is functionally the same as a 10% max HP buff that heals that amount, you essentially get a temporary cushion of 10% max HP to soak damage.

Doing it as a shield basically streamlined it by removing the two-step approach of an HP buff and a heal, consolidating it into one effect and removing any other potential complications such as regens/medicas affecting the HP buff ability during it's duration and increasing its potential potency.

While asking for specifically an AoE shield wasn't common, it is pretty easy to see the translation of the asked for ideas and what was provided.

Also context matters. At the time there were a lot of tank complaint threads going on involving DRK and WAR. There was a general consensus among many if not most tanks weighing in on the issues that both WAR and DRK should get some form of AoE/Partywide utility, hence why something like a 10% HP shield didn't seem imbalanced, because all the tanks would have something fairly equivalent.

So yes WAR mains as well as other tanks in the community DID ask for SiO to be changed into an AoE utility skill akin to what we got, as well as asking for DRK to get something too. The problem was that WAR got many of the things and considerations being asked for and quite quickly and comprehensively while DRK did not get an AoE utility ability along with many of the other issues/things asked for addressed. Giving to one and not to others created the imbalance.

EDIT:

Back on the topic of PLD AoE ...
One potential issue that I see with consolidating down the AoE abilities into one that does damage and enmity is in situations there are multiple tanks, like alliance raids, and the OT PLD is spamming their AoE ability and potentially stealing threat from the MT. Then again that is really no different than DRKs and Abyssal which isn't really a problem, that and such situations are rare and the impact is pretty negligible.
Anyways, just mulling over this stuff a little.