No cleric stance, next should be no tank stance?

So let's have the discussion
If we got rid of cleric stance for healer, what prevents them from removing tank/dps stance for tanks? Would people prefer they remove it like they did for healer or to keep it how it is?

1. They didn't get rid of it, it's still there, under all the dust and cobwebs (I kid)
2. Assuming you're talking about removing dps stance (since tank stance lets them do their primary job), I'd be against it. While it takes a higher level of skill and more group effort, a tank can still perform their duties while in dps stance. Cleric Stance by definition and thanks to latency and lag killed many a party even when the healers were good at their jobs. You can't rightly compare, imo.

The properties of dps and tank stances could be baked into the rotation. The aggro combo could increase threat more and reduce damage or increase HP and healing taken for 10-20 seconds. The damage gain of the dps stance could just be added as potencies to the dps combos. Although I'm not sure how to make it work with some WAR skills.

Would it make tanks simpler? Possibly, but so did the removal of Cleric Stance and I haven't really missed it.

Cleric Stance was just a fluff button that locked you out of healing for 10 seconds once you pressed it for DPS, tank stances add way more to the game than it ever did, so I don't think they should be removed.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

Cleric Stance was just a fluff button that locked you out of healing for 10 seconds once you pressed it for DPS, tank stances add way more to the game than it ever did, so I don't think they should be removed.

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To clarify, the cooldown on Cleric Stance was 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

To clarify, the cooldown on Cleric Stance was 5 seconds.

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Ah right my bad, must have confused it with Warrior stances.
Either way my point still stands, it was an unnecessary ability which added nothing to the class except you're forced to use at least 2 DPS GCDs before you can go back to healing, if anything it made the classes more clunky because you'd have to clip in order to turn it on and off.

Another tank stance thread sigh all this has been covered.

You do realize the whole purpose of Tank stances and Cleric stance right?

Example what is the MAIN purpose of Tank stance?

Here is a hint being this thread was started seems that common sense was lacking or really has no fundamentals about tanking jobs.

ENMITY

IF your remove that advantage what would you think would happen?

Now Same thing for Cleric stance what is the MAIN purpose of it?

Here is a hint INT/MND Swap which in turns does...?

Here is another hint; INT = SPELL DMG MND = HEALING POWER

Tank Stance is what allows MT/OT to even work in the first place. It's a switch you can flip between Tank and "DPS". It's kind of required to make it work.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

The properties of dps and tank stances could be baked into the rotation. The aggro combo could increase threat more and reduce damage or increase HP and healing taken for 10-20 seconds. The damage gain of the dps stance could just be added as potencies to the dps combos. Although I'm not sure how to make it work with some WAR skills.

Would it make tanks simpler? Possibly, but so did the removal of Cleric Stance and I haven't really missed it.

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Agreed. It would simplify things but that doesn't inherently make it worse or less fun. Again with the Cleric Stance comparison, as a SCH main I enjoyed the stance dancing and was sad when heard it was going away in SB, but the reality is that it's been a year now and I haven't missed it at all. I'd be fine with tank stances going away and stats/abilities reworked accordingly.

Honest opinion, they can't without a heavy rework of WAR. Removal of Tank Stance from DRK and PLD does very little whereas WAR would either have its interchangeable abilities taking up extra space again, or gets locked behind a CD.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Tank Stance is what allows MT/OT to even work in the first place. It's a switch you can flip between Tank and "DPS". It's kind of required to make it work.

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But the MT only uses tank stance during the first few skills, if at all on pull. The rest of the time enmity is handled with Provoke and Shirk and both tanks are in dps stance.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Tank Stance is what allows MT/OT to even work in the first place. It's a switch you can flip between Tank and "DPS". It's kind of required to make it work.

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half and half. stances for tanks exist so that it makes 2 tank parties easier to function. i wouldn't say it's required though, you can definitely rework all the abilities to still make them work, it just wouldn't be worth it. it's a good solution.

cleric stance is nothing like tank stances, since cleric stance has nothing to do with the other healer.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

But the MT only uses tank stance during the first few skills, if at all on pull. The rest of the time enmity is handled with Provoke and Shirk and both tanks are in dps stance.

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alliance raids say hi. you also can't rely on shirk in DF.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

alliance raids say hi. you also can't rely on shirk in DF.

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I'm just going to repeat the point in my first post. Instead of passive stances we can easily choose to use the appropriate combo or skill to gain enmity (MT) or do more dps (OT and MT) assuming those skills are modified to account for lost stances.

Having opened the bag of worms in the other thread is say just remove the stances and make tanks use abilities. It will upset a few wars masquerading as dps but that's not a massive loss. Let those who want to tank tank and those who dps dps. Just get rid of stances for warrior and make it a dps and introduce another tank in 5.0

No. They would have to rework enmity completely. Otherwise tank swaps would be difficult

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Tank Stance is what allows MT/OT to even work in the first place. It's a switch you can flip between Tank and "DPS". It's kind of required to make it work.

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actually you don't need it. You have DPS and enmity combos, and its possible not to pull hate even in tank stance solely by using the dps combo. It's not ideal because you lose DPS, but if you're in Eureka and you want to keep tank stance up as an off tank you can through not using your enmity combo and abilities.

As for tank stance, eh. Tank is already ez mode in this game, it doesn't need any more. Tank is one of the best things to play in new content or for unsure players because it generally has the least to do and can survive the most. I kind of wish they made it much harder if anything.

The question is...why remove the stances?!

Cleric stance was removed (turned into a typical buf...) because it interfered with the job a healer is supposed to do. It was a can of worms with no real positives. Only artificial increase in difficulty of playing the class that is further messed up by purely technical issues (lag, ping etc.).

Tank stances have no such drawbacks. You can tank and you can DPS in both (or without any). The difficulty will increase or decrease accordingly...but it's technically possible. That means that tank stances add a VARIETY to the gameplay of a class. Want a more rewarding run at the cost of some difficulty increase?! Use DPS stance for tanking. Want easier, surer run even if it'll be somewhat slower?! Use the tank stance. Want a balance between the two?! Switch between them as necessary.

The only issue with tank stances is their balance that makes them less useful in that gameplay choice. In most cases it's just too easy to hold aggro even without tank stance, and provided your healer is up to the job you can switch it at close to no drawback (especially for a warrior).

They need to be rebalanced giving tank stances more impact and more purpose. Make it valid to switch them back and forth throughout the battle. At that point the stances will be a perfectly fine mechanic that add to the tanks something unique, rather than a "use and forget" skill, for the most part.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

actually you don't need it. You have DPS and enmity combos, and its possible not to pull hate even in tank stance solely by using the dps combo. It's not ideal because you lose DPS, but if you're in Eureka and you want to keep tank stance up as an off tank you can through not using your enmity combo and abilities.

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This is wrong. No tank should EVER use the enmity combo more than necessary to get a little ahead of the second highest hate holder. The main tank SHOULD use DPS combo as much as possible. And it have nothing to do with efficiency. These comboes also reward players with defensive bonuses (heal life, greater increase of the gauge etc.). An off-tank using tank stance interferes with a proper main tanking method by forcing the main tank to do something he never should, simply because someone generates pointless enmity for no reason at all.

They could bake "tank stance" into the job base line and keep the dps stance. I could see that happening in 5.0 to make more room for new skills.
That said, jobs don't need any more dumbing down. I'm hoping 5.0 brings new mechanics and flavor to each of the jobs. The gauges from 4.0 were a start, but jobs need more differentiation.

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Originally Posted by Derio

No. They would have to rework enmity completely. Otherwise tank swaps would be difficult

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Tank swaps are with provoke and shirk, tank stances do nothing there.

They didn't so much remove Cleric Stance as they made it obsolete. Healer DPS is still about the same level it was with it by default as their damage scales Mind rather than Intelligence...

The stances on tanks, I think they could maybe give DRK a proper DPS stance rather than just making theirs be not having Grit on... And maybe rework Sword Oath, as aside from the job gauge building, there's barely a difference to just not having Shield Oath with it...

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Originally Posted by kikix12

This is wrong. No tank should EVER use the enmity combo more than necessary to get a little ahead of the second highest hate holder.

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The point is more you don't hold hate through spamming your dps combo, you do so by enmity combos. If the off tank stays in tank but doesn't use enmity at all, its not as hard as you think not to pull hate. It's not useful to do so in most content, but something like eureka you do not want to be in dps stance sometimes while being a tank in the middle of of a fight. I like eureka in a sense because it breaks down the meta we have and focuses more on the player reacting to sometimes unscripted events.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The point is more you don't hold hate through spamming your dps combo, you do so by enmity combos. If the off tank stays in tank but doesn't use enmity at all, its not as hard as you think not to pull hate. It's not useful to do so in most content, but something like eureka you do not want to be in dps stance sometimes while being a tank in the middle of of a fight. I like eureka in a sense because it breaks down the meta we have and focuses more on the player reacting to sometimes unscripted events.

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I know what your point is. And it's wrong. A tank in tank stance does, indeed, use DPS combo to generate enmity. Depending on party composition and the DPS of the DPS roles it's entirely possible to NEVER lose enmity without using the tank combo even once during the fight. If the DPS are good but don't use enmity mitigation, or are so much better that even with enmity mitigation the tank is hard-pressed to keep up...that's the ONLY time a main tank needs to use the enmity combo in tank stance during battle. Unless there is an off-tank that thinks it's cool to be an off-tank in tank stance.

As I said, in tank stance or out of it you want to use DPS combo as much as humanly possible because it gives superior effects. Its only drawback is lack of enmity bonus, but that is covered by the tank stance. If an off-tank uses their own tank stance then it messes up with the main tank forcing him to use the worse combo when he would not need to use it otherwise.

And sorry but if melee DPS don't need "tank stance" (despite having less HP and defense naturally to boot) in Eureka, then a tank does not need it either. If they will need to actually tank something then they can always enter the tank stance then and there. Going with tank stance as an off-tank is making things harder for the main tank, worse for the party and its only upside is that the off-tank have it easier...at the expense of all others.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The stances on tanks, I think they could maybe give DRK a proper DPS stance rather than just making theirs be not having Grit on... And maybe rework Sword Oath, as aside from the job gauge building, there's barely a difference to just not having Shield Oath with it...

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Dark Knights have an unusual "DPS stance". Unusual in that it can be used WITH tank stance. It's fine. They don't need anything more.

And Sword Oath adds quite a lot of damage actually. Auto-attacks are not nearly as crappy as you seem to think. I think they are 90 potency?! Or something like that. Add 75 to that and it's a bonus skill from early on in the combos.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Tank swaps are with provoke and shirk, tank stances do nothing there.

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Do you even tank? Tank stances improve enmity and reduce damage. Provoke will only put you at top of the list. Shirk diverts enmity towards target. What good would provoke do if they can't keep enmity if it's based on stats or gear? Tanking requires some type of common sense and skill, some people who know their Job can do i ( a very small hand full of players. ) Is everyone else suppose to slow down theirs?

No, they don't. Pure DPS won't hold hate off someone. The DPS combos don't have the huge enmity modifiers the others do. DRK for example uses the enmity combo and DA's the last hit, that's what keeps it. You use enmity combos as much as you need to hold hate when you tank, the goal being to use them as little as possible. But if you were just to do the initial hit and spam dps combos no matter what, you'd watch yourself lose hate.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The point is more you don't hold hate through spamming your dps combo, you do so by enmity combos. If the off tank stays in tank but doesn't use enmity at all, its not as hard as you think not to pull hate. It's not useful to do soin most content, but something like eureka you do not want to be in dps stance sometimes while being a tank in the middle of of a fight. I like eureka in a sense because it breaks down the meta we have and focuses more on the player reacting to sometimes unscripted events.

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Huh? While enmity combos are only part of the equation there is more to it. If it were to it there really would not be a reason why a healer can take enmity away from a tank. Tank stances help make the job easier so that healers don't need to cast high enmity spells and over power enmity generation. On top of that it help healers get some breathing time and focus on other members. As for the DMG ratio? A tank can't over power a BLM /SUM / RDM or any other DPS that is doing more damage then their Enmity combos. Example for every enmity combo most well gear or even decent can do 1.5-3x the damage on average.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

No, they don't. Pure DPS won't hold hate off someone. The DPS combos don't have the huge enmity modifiers the others do. DRK for example uses the enmity combo and DA's the last hit, that's what keeps it. You use enmity combos as much as you need to hold hate when you tank, the goal being to use them as little as possible. But if you were just to do the initial hit and spam dps combos no matter what, you'd watch yourself lose hate.

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False, even as a OT tank I have taken hate away from main tank using OT stance stance, or using non enmity combos. DRG / NIN /MNK and most jobs can easily over power a tanks dmg ratio if they are competent enough with their job and properly geared if tank is not using tank stance.

Even in normal raids some tanks really can't do their job and while DPS uses different enmity values it can tank a mob or two compare to poor tank experience players.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Do you even tank? Tank stances improve enmity and reduce damage. Provoke will only put you at top of the list. Shirk diverts enmity towards target. What good would provoke do if they can't keep enmity if it's based on stats or gear? Tanking requires some type of common sense and skill, some people who know their Job can do i ( a very small hand full of players. ) Is everyone else suppose to slow down theirs?

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Of course i tank, im main Drk actually, so i belive you dont understand how this work or what i mean to say.

If a OT (drk) use provoke on boss he get top on the list +1 so if the MT (pld) use shirk on the drk after the drk use provoke the drk will get on top of the list and get a 25% of extra emity from the pld having a clear lead of emity and no need of tank stance or emity combos at all.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

No, they don't. Pure DPS won't hold hate off someone.

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Please do read carefully. You seem to be just selectively reading and forming your own story of what the other person said from some random words picked that way.

I specifically said that IN TANK STANCE using purely DPS combo MAY be enough depending on the composition of party. When doing dungeons with people that I absolutely do not trust, I just tank with tank stance as long as there's damage going on, switching only temporarily for no-damage steps or when I clearly am constantly at high health and know there is no add in that battle. And I NEVER need to use enmity combo in vast majority of these parties. Not even once, not for the opener or anywhere else. My only enmity+ skill used is the 15yalm skill that all tanks have as the very first hit of the battle. All of the remaining enmity is held simply by the bonus given by tank stance and damage, while I can go gung-ho on the boss that way. Even if I do switch out of tank stance and use DPS combo, it still takes a while before anyone else can take enmity away at that point. The current enmity generation for tanks is insane. Enmity combo is not nearly as needed as you'd think. And that doesn't even account for potential other means of increasing it (or party members decreasing theirs), like the other tank dropping THEIRS on you with Shirk (if it's not needed for a tank swap) or a ninja having a field day with his abilities.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The DPS combos don't have the huge enmity modifiers the others do.

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Irrelevant. You don't need huge enmity modifiers. You just need to hold hate. In regular, duty finder play, tank stance is going to more often than not be enough to hold hate majority of the time no matter what skill you use. Using enmity combo is usually overkill, unless you'll be switching to DPS stance...at which point this part of the discussion doesn't even apply to it.

It would require any fight that uses tank swaps to be reworked, so it's probably more trouble than it'd be worth.

The point i was replying to Maeka with is that you actually could not need a dedicated tank stance/dps stance, because using the dps combos generate much less enmity over time than the modifiers on the enmity combo. If you use tank stance, its still even the case, because your increased damage is still less enmity than your normal damage plus modifiers. We kind of got all over the place because I think the point I'm making isn't coming across well. Even with tank stance up, you can lose hate if you focus solely on dpsing; if the dps are good enough they can pull it off you.

So you could rework it some, because its the moves and whether or not they specifically increase enmity some that matters a lot. Thats how we can tank in dps stance I think, because certain moves themselves still generate a lot of enmity even without the stance. I'm not sure there's much benefit in reworking it as it, because it wouldn't change gameplay that much though.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Do you even tank? Tank stances improve enmity and reduce damage. Provoke will only put you at top of the list. Shirk diverts enmity towards target. What good would provoke do if they can't keep enmity if it's based on stats or gear? Tanking requires some type of common sense and skill, some people who know their Job can do i ( a very small hand full of players. ) Is everyone else suppose to slow down theirs?

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you're not using Shirk right.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

False, even as a OT tank I have taken hate away from main tank using OT stance stance, or using non enmity combos. DRG / NIN /MNK and most jobs can easily over power a tanks dmg ratio if they are competent enough with their job and properly geared if tank is not using tank stance.

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And this makes it sound like you've never played with NINs that do their jobs right either. An OT can't take hate away from the main tank if the OT Shirks most of their hate to the MT every time they come close.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you're not using Shirk right.



And this makes it sound like you've never played with NINs that do their jobs right either. An OT can't take hate away from the main tank if the OT Shirks most of their hate to the MT every time they come close.

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First yes I do use Shirk ( Don't recall if it's still 25% enmity diversion or it has been increased ) just does not help when MT can't do their job properly and you are correct I have not played with a Decent NIN while tanking only helped as NIN to help MT feel more competent -.-; Best solution give them tips, if Not I just take over. Only thing you can do really. It's even dumber when their making the healers job harder by not being properly gear thinking they are helping the situation.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

First yes I do use Shirk ( Don't recall if it's still 25% enmity diversion or it has been increased ) just does not help when MT can't do their job properly and you are correct I have not played with a Decent NIN while tanking only helped as NIN to help MT feel more competent -.-; Best solution give them tips, if Not I just take over. Only thing you can do really. It's even dumber when their making the healers job harder by not being properly gear thinking they are helping the situation.

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actually it can help when the MT can't hold the emity properly, if the OT use provoke and after that shirk on the MT the OT just give a 25% of the total emity MT have for free, thats and removing the request of getting on tank stace or using any emity combos on tank swaps is why shirk is OP.

Solution for warrior could that they could tie Fell cleave and Decimate to Berserk/Inner release, inner beast would be usable with or without berserk/inner release.

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Originally Posted by shao32

actually it can help when the MT can't hold the emity properly, if the OT use provoke and after that shirk on the MT the OT just give a 25% of the total emity MT have for free, thats and removing the request of getting on tank stace or using any emity combos on tank swaps is why shirk is OP.

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great combo if you have a competent tank dual and a healer that can keep up without the 20% def increase and enmity boost. Those would fall under the few handful of people that can tank and heal. For the most players -.- not really. If you notice most tanks don't even use CD's properly no surprise that they can't even keep hate without stance.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

great combo if you have a competent tank dual and a healer that can keep up without the 20% def increase and enmity boost. Those would fall under the few handful of people that can tank and heal. For the most players -.- not really. If you notice most tanks don't even use CD's properly no surprise that they can't even keep hate without stance.

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Well is more about the emity that the defense, no healer Will struggle on that field since 20% dosent change the number of heals you need to top it.
In the end is a problem of desing more that players doing bad they Jobs, play a tank properly go against tank stances thats why they need to be fixed or remove to make tanking learning curve more straightforward and not so troublemaking especially on average skill players.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

First yes I do use Shirk ( Don't recall if it's still 25% enmity diversion or it has been increased ) just does not help when MT can't do their job properly

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there's a difference between using it and using it right. most of your posts is based on players playing poorly.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

there's a difference between using it and using it right. most of your posts is based on players playing poorly.

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Well I did mention, if you were properly reading them, that there are only a handful of players that actually do it right. Yes I am aware and I understand that everyone has their own pace, however these are the results when a game is nerfed when it's easy enough to begin with -.-. They get over confident and forget the basics or mechanics. I'm not a perfect tank, yet I am above average. I know there is a learning curve, however that does not mean tanks should avoid the basic principles of 101 tanking or mechanics.

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Originally Posted by shao32

Well is more about the emity that the defense, no healer Will struggle on that field since 20% dosent change the number of heals you need to top it.
In the end is a problem of desing more that players doing bad they Jobs, play a tank properly go against tank stances thats why they need to be fixed or remove to make tanking learning curve more straightforward and not so troublemaking especially on average skill players.

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True to an extend, however you have to agree, tank stances does help healers whoa re still learning and are not confident. That boost in defense and enmity increase generation comes in handy. I will agree some stances can be a pain and only really useful if no TP or MP is available. Example Shield Oath. 75 to auto attacks? Should be more of a 15% DMG increase to actions rather auto attacks, as a suggestion.