A(nother) Secret of the Lily Rework Thread

TLDR: Convert Secret of the Lily traits to generate resources like heat or inner beast that builds with each GCD / HoT or DoT tick. A Lily is grown every hundred resources generated so WHMs performing their ABCs will gain the benefits of Lilies.

The Core Fault of the Lily System

The core fault of the Lily system is it promotes non-optimized play. The core tenants of optimized play are the following:

• Always be casting (caveat, unless you need MP for something upcoming)
• Use the most effective ability for your current GCD
• Minimize clipping both your GCDs and DoTs
• Do the mechanics successfully while minimizing movement

Unfortunately, Lily generation is a proc off Cure or Cure II. These spells are generally bad choices because of the following:

• Low potency/mp efficiency compared to Regen (also, Regen allows the WHM to use oGCDs without clipping)
• Requires a GCD cast while abilities like Benediction and Tetra are instant and MP-free
• The WHM is dealing with AoE damage and shouldn't be spot healing

Generally speaking, the times WHM should be using Cure or Cure II are times where an individual need a spot heal to survive an upcoming mechanic and no oGCDs are available. Given the myriad of tools at WHMs disposal, you can imagine these occurrences are few and far in between.

Additionally, because of the scripted nature of the battle content in the game, cooldowns being planned and used at specific instances of a fight means healers have optimal GCD uptime over the course of the fight. Spot healing via Cure and Cure II is not required when the cooldowns are managed and implemented to that level and the players are familiar enough with the fight that one generally doesn't need to save cooldowns and/or spot heal mistakes.

Proposal: Rework how Lilies are Generated
Instead of either having Lily generated from Cure or Cure II at a guaranteed chance or having it generated at a random RNG chance as has been previously implemented, Lily's should be a resource that's accumulated via GCD usage. This will be implemented through the following steps.

1. Cast GCD
2. A resource bar is charged (similar to Beast Meter / Heat)
3. When 100 resources is generated, the WHM grows a Lily and the bar resets (WHM can store up to 3 total)

This method of Lily generation means that by playing optimally, the WHM is gaining Lilies that can be used for the fight without needing to make non-optimal choices in their decision making. This also means that the bonuses the Lilies provide can be planned out for the fight and for the highly skilled players, take this foresight and planning to a whole skill ceiling that has opened up for WHM.

In general, here is how I would change the Secret of the Lily traits.

Secrets of the Lily
Adds 10 resources to your Lily Gauge upon the successful execution of a spell while in combat. When 100 resources is accumulated, a Lily is added (maximum 3 can be stored)
Lilies will lower the recast time for Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton by a percentage corresponding to the number of Lilies stacked at time of action execution (at which time the Lilies are removed).

1 Lily: 4%
2 Lilies: 10%
3 Lilies: 20%

Secrets of the Lily II
Upon the successful execution of a HoT tick, add 3 resources to your Lily gauge (this can only occur once per server tick to prevent massive gauge building via Medica II)
Upon the successful execution of a DoT tick, add 3 resources to your Lily gauge (also can only occur once per server tick to prevent massive gain via Aero III)


The first trait would allow a WHM to get a Lily in 25 seconds of dedicated chain casting. The second trait would allow a WHM to get a Lily approximately every 17 seconds of dedicated chain casting and maintain DoTs and HoTs.

The CDR component of the Lilies is frowned upon since the CDR gain is not worth the GCD loss to use Cure or Cure II. The change to Lily generation could make CDR more palatable since it would both be more readily available and thus be able to be planned around.

Alternatively, the bonuses to Lilies can be changed to a unique bonus based on the skill (IE Divine Benison gains a higher %-bonus, Aslyum can gain a potency bonus, etc. to help flesh out the WHM identity with the Lilies.)


Proposal: Increasing the Skill Ceiling

Adjust Secrets of the Lily or a future third tier of the trait could be have the following text:

"Lilies will lower the recast time for Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton by a percentage corresponding to the number of Lilies stacked at time of action execution (at which time only a single Lily are removed)."

The skill ceiling balance would be trying to maintain three lilies to maximize the Lily bonuses while still being able to keep up with healing responsibilities. An added incentive could be tying a passive stacking healing and damage buff of 2% per Lily to further encourage Lily maintenance. The one fault of this style of gameplay is encouraging high risk which is not conducive to responsible healing.

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I guess that's about all I got to say on the matter. I personally feel this is an opportune time to rework Lilies given how healer balance has shifted with 4.3.

If S-E can package a potency increase for our DPS spells, that would be highly appreciated ^_______^

That's an elegant solution and more refined than my previous idea of granting a lily when regen/aero ran it's duration <3

This coupled with your idea of traits each ability when used with Lilys would be a solid fix IMHO.

Good stuff, here's hoping the community team passes it on.

Well I feel silly for only seeing this after it was linked in general discussion, it's a really nice idea!

I particularly enjoy it's plausibility- SE clearly has a vision for WHM even if it isn't one that the playerbase tends to share. This is definitely less disruptive to that vision than a total overhaul of the class, retaining the core ideas they implimented with the lily system but allowing it to function in line with real WHM gameplay.

Overall just a whole lot of yes, yes please.

I love this rework for Lilies but if it was implemented I think the potencies for the cool down reduction would need to be changed. Currently it only takes 3 GCD's to get 3 lillies and with your proposal it would take 30 GCD's by contrast if you don't count Regen Ticks. Even with Regen Ticks it is a much longer process. It's clear from the design of the skill that spot healing was the focus of the trait which is typically a sign of a terrible group being terrible. So the cool down reduction seems to have this intention of being used for wipe correction and not for speed run optimization which is what your Lily proposal lends itself to. A new healer who may actually stand still doing nothing waiting to heal would benefit more from the current Lily system. I do admire the fact that you encourage more active gameplay but I also like that White Mage is built currently to help the extreme novice to healing. I would think that the lilies should be generated by Cure 1 & 2 at Level 52 and then have the trait switch to a GCD fed meter with regen ticks included at 68 to better transition the super novice to a super elite.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I guess that's about all I got to say on the matter. I personally feel this is an opportune time to rework Lilies given how healer balance has shifted with 4.3.

If S-E can package a potency increase for our DPS spells, that would be highly appreciated ^_______^

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This proposal is just an over-designed "make it work off DPS" suggestion. As I've said in maybe a half dozen threads accross GD and here, the gauges are to point players the correct direction of doing their role/job. DPS is not a core part of the healer's job, hence none of their gauges deal with DPS. It's not a limit break button where resources are consumed. You may not like that it promotes, what in your point of view is inefficient play, but it is what the dev's view is the correct role of the healer. Therefor asking for anything related to DPS to be involved with the lilies is promoting the idea that the WHM is a green DPS, and that is simply dredging up the "lazy healer" nonsense again.

Now putting "correct way of healing" aside. This is what I would change in your idea:

1. Cast any healing GCD
2. A resource bar is charged (similar to Beast Meter / Heat)
3. When 100 resources is generated, the WHM grows a Lily and the bar resets (WHM can store up to 3 total)


Secrets of the Lily
Adds 10 resources to your Lily Gauge upon the successful execution of a healing GCD spell that recovers HP. When 100 resources is accumulated, a Lily is added (maximum 3 can be stored)
Lilies will lower the recast time for Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton by a percentage corresponding to the number of Lilies stacked at time of action execution (at which time the Lilies are removed).

1 Lily: 4%
2 Lilies: 10%
3 Lilies: 20%

It's important to keep the function of Lily I independent from Lily II.

Secrets of the Lily II
Any GCD heal that recovers at least 10% HP, removes 5 seconds from all currently ticking oGCD recast timers (including role actions like Largesse, Swiftcast and Lucid Dreaming) until there is 10 seconds remaining. Per player healed. So an efficiently executed Medica/Medica II/Cure III will shave 20 secs off a light party and 40 secs off a full party. Can not recast Asylum while Asylum is still up. (Admittedly this could probably break Swiftcast and POM if there is no floor recast to using either.)

Lily I & II will have no direct positive or negative effect on DPS skills. If you want to instead use Swiftcast and PoM on DPS skills, go right ahead, that's your loophole to exploit.

You need to leave all DPS skills out of the lilies themselves, or you will see the all DPS skills potency cut to balance it (even the your proposal in the first post would certainly result in cutting the DPS potency of Assize, and so would this one.)

Personally I'm expecting SE to nerf the potency of all DPS skills on all jobs in 5.0 relative to the new skills. So where Stone I (140)/ II(200) / III (210) / IV (250) gained 78%. That is far more significant amount of skill creep when the BLM's only gained 55%, and they have to combo to get that largest boom the fastest.

What I would like to see are "combo" skills that work with the co-healer. So instead of some absurd stacked HoT regen mechanics, they create a "shared double potency" version, so now instead of seeing two HoT stacks (and not knowing which one is yours), either healer that casts Medica II while there is still time left on the super-medica II HoT, renews the HoT for half the time, so that overlapping casts don't clip. eg Both healers cast Medica II (Or Diurnal Aspected Helios), result "Super Medica II", 30 secs. Each time Medica II is casted by either healer adds 15 seconds to it instead of a 30 second separate HoT's. WHM+AST(Noct) or WHM+SCH = "Medica Shield" where the Medica II cast recovers HP, and the Shield/Galvanize effect adds a shield, and once the players HP is full, the shield power doubles, and can be renewed by either the WHM or the SCH/AST. And for SCH+SCH or SCH+AST(Noct) you get "Super Galvanize" which doubles the strength, but is extended instead of overwritten by subsequent Aspected Helios/Succor casts. This solves the stacking/overwriting problem by allowing one healer to renew the the effect for 15s even if the other healer has has been taken out of commission. Initiating the "Super" version requires both healers to cast the HoT skill within one server tick of the other, otherwise behaves as normal.

A similar proposal could exist for DPS's that give party buffs, where a combination buff applies to the party as long as one of the DPS keeps renewing it.

Very nice ideas. I 100% agree on lilies needing to be gained through another source outside of CureI/II.
The way I see it, lilies are as useless as Plenary indulgence was back when it only generated from cure spells.

The main problem is, SE is stuck in this idea that WHM should be a pure healer, and designed lilies around that, but why should a pure healer only be limited to hardcasted heals? There should be rewards for healing in general, not only a very specific way. So far they're the only job who's job gauge means absolutely nothing to them, and that simply shouldn't be the case. It should be considered a failure by SE and should be reworked just like WAR or 4.0 SCH was. And this should happen BEFORE 5.0, because I don't want our main addition added in 5.0 being a functional lily system while everyone else gets new things.

I agree with this idea.

I think lillies should be gained by simply playing the job as a whole and not limited to only 2 spells like it is now.

I like a lot your way of gaining the lilies. I just think the usage of lilies is still underwhelming. Cooldown reduction is not enough and this way of gaining them that is a but slow will most likely end up using an ability that use a lily when we just have one.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

snip.

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I committed to people off the forums that I would ignore your post but I just couldn't stick to it. This is awful. This would make WHM so horrendously overpowered even I would have to say something about it and I'm usually the one crying for WHM buffs.

Do you underatand what that massive CD reduction would do to the effective healing potency of WHM? It would take us from being the best by a small margin to being able to recover more HPS than a SCH and an AST combined over the course of a fight. It would be completely gamebreaking, like basically making your party immortal if your WHM didn't die.

Your complete and utter lack of understanding of how this game works and specifically how WHM works never ceases to astound me but this has to be the cherry on top of the of the sundae on top of the cake on top of the pizza on top of the brand new car - it is ridiculous.

Please for the love of WHM stop suggesting things until you understand how literally any of this works.

Your aversion to dps bothers me but not nearly as much as the rest of your proposal.

A bit of math so you understand how this works.

10% HP right now is around 4k for non-tanks. My Medica heals for about 8k. This means every Medica after a raidwide aoe will take 40 seconds off of all my timers. This is 1/3 of Thin Air and Lucid (WHM now has effectively limitless MP), about half of Largresse and Asylum which will mean a crazy amount of Largresse uptime (not that its needed, this WHM doesn't have to care about MP or GCD efficency), 2/3 of the time of Assize, Tetra and PI and SC and means DB is essentially always off of CD. PoM is the least of our worries at that point.

Also, the hate this WHM would generate (and I don't just mean irl from the AST and SCH communities, I mean threat from enemies) would be monumental. You are basically rewarding overhealing at this point (why not cast a Medica when everyone is only missing 5k health, the CD reduction is worth it!) and you will pull off of tanks this way without a doubt.

So no, your idea is literally the opposite of what WHM needs because WHM doesn't need to be able to solo heal Ultimate which is essentially what you're proposing.

Think before you type.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

This proposal is just an over-designed "make it work off DPS" suggestion. As I've said in maybe a half dozen threads accross GD and here, the gauges are to point players the correct direction of doing their role/job. DPS is not a core part of the healer's job, hence none of their gauges deal with DPS.

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Thematically you're correct, but the gameplay at hand simply doesn't pan out that way. Ghislain's solution has one source of lilies from actual DPS (Dots no less), the other is from any ability, it's certainly making it work off DPS, but it's not focused around that at all. Rather it works nicely off your overall work rate, something with should be encouraged anyhow.

At the end of the day, look at a WHM's raw cast numbers on a random EX primal log, you have to go almost to the bottom of the barrel before you find a WHM that's casting more healing than DPS abilities.

I'm not sure why you think that SE are so massively against healers getting any kind of a DPS bump, if this was the case, AST's malefic change would have been addressed by now. I also find it amusing that whilst you're practically terrified of suggesting any kind of DPS increase, yet are willing to put forward a cooldown reduction that's flat out broken. I don't think we're going to see a Lily change until 5.0 frankly, but I will be surprised if WHM doesn't get a potency bump for 4.4 TBH.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm not sure why you think that SE are so massively against healers getting any kind of a DPS bump, if this was the case, AST's malefic change would have been addressed by now. I also find it amusing that whilst you're practically terrified of suggesting any kind of DPS increase, yet are willing to put forward a cooldown reduction that's flat out broken. I don't think we're going to see a Lily change until 5.0 frankly, but I will be surprised if WHM doesn't get a potency bump for 4.4 TBH.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't this be a DPS buff anyways just because of Assize? Single cast could shave off 40 seconds on one of your most potent DPS/Healing abilities, and any sort of raidwide damage would let you repeat it nearly infinitely, yes?

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't this be a DPS buff anyways just because of Assize? Single cast could shave off 40 seconds on one of your most potent DPS/Healing abilities, and any sort of raidwide damage would let you repeat it nearly infinitely, yes?

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Thats not the only potential dps increase (if you aren't dead from yanking off the tank of course) because the amount of healing that could be accomplished via these oGCDs that would always be up would ultimately mean less of a need to cast GCD heals. In trying to buff healing this also buffs dps in terms of potential GCD efficency.

Not that the 'developer' of that proposal intended it to be played that way of course. But, just like in the game, dev intention is meaningless if it conflicts with efficency.

Edit: Also I don't want to detract from the OP's original idea. It really is wonderful and doesn't deserve to be derailed by this other nonsense.

I got the impression that assize wouldn’t get it’s cooldown reduced by lily 2 in Kisa’s suggestion

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Secrets of the Lily II
Any GCD heal that recovers at least 10% HP, removes 5 seconds from all currently ticking oGCD recast timers (including role actions like Largesse, Swiftcast and Lucid Dreaming) until there is 10 seconds remaining.

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Looks like it'd include Assize to me.

Speaking of, I was curious about one part of both of these. They treat Cure/CureII with the same respect as Regen and the normal GCD heals, and they give the same amount. Under this idea, why not let them give a bit more? Also, for the No DPS one, why not let the DPS skills give some, but a lesser amount, if you are so adamant about not allowing it? Your way makes Lilies just as useless solo because you just aren't going to heal yourself that much.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

suggestion

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If I understand well, we would have 3 Lily under 51 secondes ?
And for what ? 20% reduction on one skill among those listed ?

Your first part with "cast GCD", "bar", "100 ressources" is good but in the end it would change nothing if the generation of lilies is too long combined to low rewards.

"Alternatively, the bonuses to Lilies can be changed to a unique bonus based on the skill (IE Divine Benison gains a higher %-bonus, Aslyum can gain a potency bonus, etc. to help flesh out the WHM identity with the Lilies.)"

Yeah it would be better or either 3 lilies generated within 30 sec (and the large problem remain with Divine Benison which is casted every 30 sec, so the other skills can't benefit from Lilies).

Just because the proposed lili would proc of dps skill, this (or anything remotely close) won't happen.

As much as I don't agree entirely with Kisai, the first thing she says is true regarding SE view of what a healer should do.

I don't think it's that they don't want us to dps, but they don't want to force us to dps. In other words, they won't include a mechanic that enhance your healing if you dps.

What you propose is that, if you want more heals, you better spam those rocks. And this definitely goes against healer's design in this game.
There isn't a single mechanic among the 3 healers that rewards dps with more healing. In fact it's usually the contrary, dpsing might reduce your healing output, but never the opposite.

Any lilie proposition involving dps skill is, imo, useless and a waste of time.

I mean they're not dumb, they know that if they'd do something rewarding healer dps (with something else than the dps itself) people would consider this gameplay as mandatory. (even tho it's somewhat already the case)
If you could consume lilies to shoot a dps skill, no one would use lilies on anything else
If you could always draw the king of the crowns, you'd be frowned up for using the lady
If Selene could attack, people would kick you for using Eos

There's a reason healer have no proper dps mechanic or anything rewarding you for dpsing.
The only reason we get new dps skill (usually single target) is to solo content.

Healer dps is seen as optional. (damn even Y.P had to say "I would like to remind people that healer first role is to heal in raid and that boss are deisgned around healer doing no damage at all")
So anytime you propose something for healer, be mindful of that.

The best you could get is a dps mechanic boosting another dps mechanic. But a dps mechanic enhancing your healing capacity, nope. At least not until they change their mind and consider healer should dps.


Personally, if they were to ever do something remotely close to a dps gauge for WHM, it would be separated from the lilies.

Like "thorns" or something.

I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but I strongly encourage people that have questions/worries about the lily system/where it may be going to also post in the questions thread for the upcoming E3 live letter, if you haven't already.

If we bring up the topic often enough, we could see some results, and that thread seems like the best place to get the devs attention and at least get some info about what plans they may or may not have for the system.

Eh. Given the way you stock lilies here, they'd need a more pronounced use.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Good stuff, here's hoping the community team passes it on.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Overall just a whole lot of yes, yes please.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Very nice ideas.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I agree with this idea.

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Thank you for the approval :)

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

I love this rework for Lilies but if it was implemented I think the potencies for the cool down reduction would need to be changed. Currently it only takes 3 GCD's to get 3 lillies and with your proposal it would take 30 GCD's by contrast if you don't count Regen Ticks. Even with Regen Ticks it is a much longer process. It's clear from the design of the skill that spot healing was the focus of the trait which is typically a sign of a terrible group being terrible. So the cool down reduction seems to have this intention of being used for wipe correction and not for speed run optimization which is what your Lily proposal lends itself to. A new healer who may actually stand still doing nothing waiting to heal would benefit more from the current Lily system. I do admire the fact that you encourage more active gameplay but I also like that White Mage is built currently to help the extreme novice to healing. I would think that the lilies should be generated by Cure 1 & 2 at Level 52 and then have the trait switch to a GCD fed meter with regen ticks included at 68 to better transition the super novice to a super elite.

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I don't disagree with your statement - it seems exactly what S-E intended. It's also why many of us take issue to the Lily system - it's a system designed to fix bad parties and thus when you're in a GOOD party, it does nothing for the White Mage as Cure and Cure II become the least useful choice out of all your options.

I don't think your suggestion is a bad suggestion either though~ So thank you for the input :)

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

-Snips-

This proposal is just an over-designed "make it work off DPS" suggestion. As I've said in maybe a half dozen threads accross GD and here, the gauges are to point players the correct direction of doing their role/job. DPS is not a core part of the healer's job, hence none of their gauges deal with DPS. It's not a limit break button where resources are consumed. You may not like that it promotes, what in your point of view is inefficient play, but it is what the dev's view is the correct role of the healer. Therefor asking for anything related to DPS to be involved with the lilies is promoting the idea that the WHM is a green DPS, and that is simply dredging up the "lazy healer" nonsense again.

Now putting "correct way of healing" aside. This is what I would change in your idea:

1. Cast any healing GCD
2. A resource bar is charged (similar to Beast Meter / Heat)
3. When 100 resources is generated, the WHM grows a Lily and the bar resets (WHM can store up to 3 total)


Secrets of the Lily
Adds 10 resources to your Lily Gauge upon the successful execution of a healing GCD spell that recovers HP. When 100 resources is accumulated, a Lily is added (maximum 3 can be stored)
Lilies will lower the recast time for Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton by a percentage corresponding to the number of Lilies stacked at time of action execution (at which time the Lilies are removed).

1 Lily: 4%
2 Lilies: 10%
3 Lilies: 20%

It's important to keep the function of Lily I independent from Lily II.

Secrets of the Lily II
Any GCD heal that recovers at least 10% HP, removes 5 seconds from all currently ticking oGCD recast timers (including role actions like Largesse, Swiftcast and Lucid Dreaming) until there is 10 seconds remaining. Per player healed. So an efficiently executed Medica/Medica II/Cure III will shave 20 secs off a light party and 40 secs off a full party. Can not recast Asylum while Asylum is still up. (Admittedly this could probably break Swiftcast and POM if there is no floor recast to using either.)

Lily I & II will have no direct positive or negative effect on DPS skills. If you want to instead use Swiftcast and PoM on DPS skills, go right ahead, that's your loophole to exploit.

You need to leave all DPS skills out of the lilies themselves, or you will see the all DPS skills potency cut to balance it (even the your proposal in the first post would certainly result in cutting the DPS potency of Assize, and so would this one.)

Personally I'm expecting SE to nerf the potency of all DPS skills on all jobs in 5.0 relative to the new skills. So where Stone I (140)/ II(200) / III (210) / IV (250) gained 78%. That is far more significant amount of skill creep when the BLM's only gained 55%, and they have to combo to get that largest boom the fastest.

What I would like to see are "combo" skills that work with the co-healer. So instead of some absurd stacked HoT regen mechanics, they create a "shared double potency" version, so now instead of seeing two HoT stacks (and not knowing which one is yours), either healer that casts Medica II while there is still time left on the super-medica II HoT, renews the HoT for half the time, so that overlapping casts don't clip. eg Both healers cast Medica II (Or Diurnal Aspected Helios), result "Super Medica II", 30 secs. Each time Medica II is casted by either healer adds 15 seconds to it instead of a 30 second separate HoT's. WHM+AST(Noct) or WHM+SCH = "Medica Shield" where the Medica II cast recovers HP, and the Shield/Galvanize effect adds a shield, and once the players HP is full, the shield power doubles, and can be renewed by either the WHM or the SCH/AST. And for SCH+SCH or SCH+AST(Noct) you get "Super Galvanize" which doubles the strength, but is extended instead of overwritten by subsequent Aspected Helios/Succor casts. This solves the stacking/overwriting problem by allowing one healer to renew the the effect for 15s even if the other healer has has been taken out of commission. Initiating the "Super" version requires both healers to cast the HoT skill within one server tick of the other, otherwise behaves as normal.

A similar proposal could exist for DPS's that give party buffs, where a combination buff applies to the party as long as one of the DPS keeps renewing it.

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No, my proposal is to make Lilies work by remaining active as a White Mage. It doesn't matter if you're healing or DPSing because it builds your Lilies and works if your party is playing well or playing poorly.

As I mentioned in the previous post, the Lily system is designed to fix bad parties and means very little when the White Mages join parties with few to no mechanical mistakes. My proposal changes that to be more active.

And, as many others have noted in the thread, your proposed SotL II trait is very very very overpowered. Being able to essentially Medica + Assize every single raid buster, being able to have Divine Benison + Tetra or Bendiction for every tank buster in the game, maintaining infinite MP via Lucid and Thin Air AND having zero enmity issue by being able to pop Lucid Dreaming at all times means you'll always be bringing 2 Tanks, One White Mage, and Five DPS to every fight if you can get the people and don't get screwed by healer mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

I like a lot your way of gaining the lilies. I just think the usage of lilies is still underwhelming. Cooldown reduction is not enough and this way of gaining them that is a but slow will most likely end up using an ability that use a lily when we just have one.

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Indeed. The foundation for the Lily system needs to be better and once that foundation is set, it'll be important to see what we can do to make the bonuses they give more appealing. We can also adjust the rates too so Lilies can be grown faster.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Edit: Also I don't want to detract from the OP's original idea. It really is wonderful and doesn't deserve to be derailed by this other nonsense.

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I don't mind persay! As long as it doesn't get to ridiculously off rails, lol. The more bumps, the more exposure to the thread and proposal which isn't a bad thing. :)

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

If I understand well, we would have 3 Lily under 51 secondes ?
And for what ? 20% reduction on one skill among those listed ?

Your first part with "cast GCD", "bar", "100 ressources" is good but in the end it would change nothing if the generation of lilies is too long combined to low rewards.

"Alternatively, the bonuses to Lilies can be changed to a unique bonus based on the skill (IE Divine Benison gains a higher %-bonus, Aslyum can gain a potency bonus, etc. to help flesh out the WHM identity with the Lilies.)"

Yeah it would be better or either 3 lilies generated within 30 sec (and the large problem remain with Divine Benison which is casted every 30 sec, so the other skills can't benefit from Lilies).

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The rates can be adjusted relatively easily given the way it works right now. By making the GCD rate be 15 per cast and the ticks be 4 per ticks you'd get a Lily every 16.7s with only SotL and 11.5s with SotL II. It's not difficult to change and so will be reasonably easy to balance.

This way more lillies, more fun with the abilities.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

-Snip-

Just because the proposed lili would proc of dps skill, this (or anything remotely close) won't happen.

As much as I don't agree entirely with Kisai, the first thing she says is true regarding SE view of what a healer should do.

I don't think it's that they don't want us to dps, but they don't want to force us to dps. In other words, they won't include a mechanic that enhance your healing if you dps.

What you propose is that, if you want more heals, you better spam those rocks. And this definitely goes against healer's design in this game.
There isn't a single mechanic among the 3 healers that rewards dps with more healing. In fact it's usually the contrary, dpsing might reduce your healing output, but never the opposite.

Any lilie proposition involving dps skill is, imo, useless and a waste of time.

I mean they're not dumb, they know that if they'd do something rewarding healer dps (with something else than the dps itself) people would consider this gameplay as mandatory. (even tho it's somewhat already the case)
If you could consume lilies to shoot a dps skill, no one would use lilies on anything else
If you could always draw the king of the crowns, you'd be frowned up for using the lady
If Selene could attack, people would kick you for using Eos

There's a reason healer have no proper dps mechanic or anything rewarding you for dpsing.
The only reason we get new dps skill (usually single target) is to solo content.

Healer dps is seen as optional. (damn even Y.P had to say "I would like to remind people that healer first role is to heal in raid and that boss are deisgned around healer doing no damage at all")
So anytime you propose something for healer, be mindful of that.

The best you could get is a dps mechanic boosting another dps mechanic. But a dps mechanic enhancing your healing capacity, nope. At least not until they change their mind and consider healer should dps.


Personally, if they were to ever do something remotely close to a dps gauge for WHM, it would be separated from the lilies.

Like "thorns" or something.

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There is one healing ability in the game that can be enhanced by your DPS: Fey Union. While the Aetherflow can be used for healing abilities, they can also be used for both Bane and Energy Drain - both being DPS abilities. Since Fey Union is a short term single target boost to your pet's healing output, it does enhance the fairy's healing.

Additionally, while not directly enhancing a healer's ability to heal, both AST and WHM have abilities that both heal and damage at the same time in the form of Earthly Star and Assize respectively.

While I do know Yoshi-P has gone on record for saying healer DPS is optional, he can changes his mind as well. We have abilities that you should be using for both healing and DPS so time will tell if we continue to get more of those types of tools.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but I strongly encourage people that have questions/worries about the lily system/where it may be going to also post in the questions thread for the upcoming E3 live letter, if you haven't already.

If we bring up the topic often enough, we could see some results, and that thread seems like the best place to get the devs attention and at least get some info about what plans they may or may not have for the system.

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To add to this, I'm going to recommend anyone who wants to attempt to make an impact look at this post in particular in the E3 question thread.

S-E seems to enjoy having things go via their like count so, the more posters who like it, the better chance it'll have at being asked.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Eh. Given the way you stock lilies here, they'd need a more pronounced use.

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Entirely possible to do~ I didn't go into much details in the OP but it would be nice if there were potency buffs, enmity dumps, MP recovery, etc.. I feel the sky is the limit in terms of what bonus the Lilies can supply, it's just a matter of being creative and remaining thematic as well.

I absolutely love this post and everyone in it. I know this may be slightly off topic but I definitely want to thank everyone for taking time away from the game itself as infinitely enjoyable as it is to come here and share opinions and ideas. I have learned more from this forum than I could ever hope to. I never realized how small my perspective and understanding were until I saw the viewpoints from the famous healers that hang out here. It actually encouraged me to branch into the Savage content that honestly terrified me and now I have way more fun. I really can't wait to see what changes are gonna come in the future for all Healers and WHM especially. The game just keeps getting better. (Still miss Stone Skin and Leeches tho)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Secrets of the Lily
Adds 10 resources to your Lily Gauge upon the successful execution of a spell while in combat. When 100 resources is accumulated, a Lily is added (maximum 3 can be stored)
Lilies will lower the recast time for Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton by a percentage corresponding to the number of Lilies stacked at time of action execution (at which time the Lilies are removed).

1 Lily: 4%
2 Lilies: 10%
3 Lilies: 20%

Secrets of the Lily II
Upon the successful execution of a HoT tick, add 3 resources to your Lily gauge (this can only occur once per server tick to prevent massive gauge building via Medica II)
Upon the successful execution of a DoT tick, add 3 resources to your Lily gauge (also can only occur once per server tick to prevent massive gain via Aero III)

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This part is great. :)

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Adjust Secrets of the Lily or a future third tier of the trait could be have the following text:

"Lilies will lower the recast time for Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton by a percentage corresponding to the number of Lilies stacked at time of action execution (at which time only a single Lily are removed)."

The skill ceiling balance would be trying to maintain three lilies to maximize the Lily bonuses while still being able to keep up with healing responsibilities. An added incentive could be tying a passive stacking healing and damage buff of 2% per Lily to further encourage Lily maintenance. The one fault of this style of gameplay is encouraging high risk which is not conducive to responsible healing.

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This would be better. Aside from CDR still not being interesting, not wiping out all the lilies every time you blink would help make it feel like a resource that you're supposed to manage and care about instead of "if it does something, okay, if not, whatever", which is what it is right now.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

This proposal is just an over-designed "make it work off DPS" suggestion. As I've said in maybe a half dozen threads accross GD and here, the gauges are to point players the correct direction of doing their role/job.

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The lily gauge completely fails at this goal right now. It encourages you to play the job badly.

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DPS is not a core part of the healer's job

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Yes it is. Why do you think healer DPS was made easier in Stormblood? Hint: Developers don't make it easier to do something they don't want people to do.

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hence none of their gauges deal with DPS.

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Energy Drain, Bane, Balance, Spear, Arrow, and Lord of Crowns all may disagree with your assessment. The WHM gauge has nothing to do with DPS, but the WHM gauge is also functionally irrelevant when playing WHM.

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It's not a limit break button where resources are consumed. You may not like that it promotes, what in your point of view is inefficient play, but it is what the dev's view is the correct role of the healer. Therefor asking for anything related to DPS to be involved with the lilies is promoting the idea that the WHM is a green DPS, and that is simply dredging up the "lazy healer" nonsense again.

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No it's not. It's recognizing how the game is actually played, because that's the game the devs gave us. If they want people to focus on healing, maybe they shouldn't give us content like Swallows Compass where there isn't enough damage to ever require casting Cure II.

You seem to be mistaking your opinion of what healers should be with developer intent. They haven't told us what their intent with healer design in SB was. All we know for sure is their actions changed the game to make it easier to do across the board. They continued to do that with the recent AST changes.

These are not the actions of people who don't want healers to press DPS buttons.

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Now putting "correct way of healing" aside. This is what I would change in your idea:

1. Cast any healing GCD
2. A resource bar is charged (similar to Beast Meter / Heat)
3. When 100 resources is generated, the WHM grows a Lily and the bar resets (WHM can store up to 3 total)


Secrets of the Lily
Adds 10 resources to your Lily Gauge upon the successful execution of a healing GCD spell that recovers HP. When 100 resources is accumulated, a Lily is added (maximum 3 can be stored)
Lilies will lower the recast time for Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton by a percentage corresponding to the number of Lilies stacked at time of action execution (at which time the Lilies are removed).

1 Lily: 4%
2 Lilies: 10%
3 Lilies: 20%

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This is strictly worse than it is now, because instead of getting 1 lily per 1 cast of certain GCDs, you need TEN casts of a slightly wider selection of GCDs. This would simply cause people to get fewer lilies. And the effect of the lilies is still junk.

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Secrets of the Lily II
Any GCD heal that recovers at least 10% HP, removes 5 seconds from all currently ticking oGCD recast timers (including role actions like Largesse, Swiftcast and Lucid Dreaming) until there is 10 seconds remaining. Per player healed. So an efficiently executed Medica/Medica II/Cure III will shave 20 secs off a light party and 40 secs off a full party. Can not recast Asylum while Asylum is still up. (Admittedly this could probably break Swiftcast and POM if there is no floor recast to using either.)

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As everyone else has already said, comically overpowered. 40 seconds of a CD is a huge amount when WHM has so many 30-120 second cooldowns.

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Lily I & II will have no direct positive or negative effect on DPS skills. If you want to instead use Swiftcast and PoM on DPS skills, go right ahead, that's your loophole to exploit.

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Umm, 40 seconds off the cooldown of Assize is a DPS skill.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

This proposal is just an over-designed "make it work off DPS" suggestion. As I've said in maybe a half dozen threads accross GD and here, the gauges are to point players the correct direction of doing their role/job.

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I know its completely unrelated to the topic but MNK is a job who's gauge(s) doesn't direct them in anything other than telling them their GL "levels" and "stack" and both come from just pressing buttons which you can only do "orderly" because of forms.

And like everyone else has said, the fact that you can DPS as a healer without stance dancing as of SB clearly means DPS is part of the job now. #respectingcontent

Besides, lilies are not the only "useless" resource; PI is also pretty weak for a "signature patch" skill imo.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Besides, lilies are not the only "useless" resource; PI is also pretty weak for a "signature patch" skill imo.

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They want to maintain this identity for WHM as a pure healer, but they're simply running out of different ways to heal.
I mean, there's only so many ways a single healer can get HP up, eventually it all just starts to look like silly gimmicks that are not worth your time.

Now, I'm not saying Plenary Indulgence is useless, because it is pretty nice in O8s and Ultimate, but you're right in that it's an extremely disappointing level 70 ability, to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

They want to maintain this identity for WHM as a pure healer, but they're simply running out of different ways to heal.
I mean, there's only so many ways a single healer can get HP up, eventually it all just starts to look like silly gimmicks that are not worth your time.

Now, I'm not saying Plenary Indulgence is useless, because it is pretty nice in O8s and Ultimate, but you're right in that it's an extremely disappointing level 70 ability, to say the least.

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What they could have done, is make it a kind of aoe mini shield. You throw it on someone and the nearby people get a "splash" of it on them. Less powerful than the original target but still protected. We have water skill, it can be a water shield!

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Now, I'm not saying Plenary Indulgence is useless, because it is pretty nice in O8s and Ultimate, but you're right in that it's an extremely disappointing level 70 ability, to say the least.

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Oh I know it is not useless, hence the quotes. To add clarity, I mean how the skill doesn't actually have a UI element even though it has a resource (regardless of how convoluted af it is) that requires management and it was an additional quip at Kisai's "The UI points the way" silly point.

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Originally Posted by dejiko_san

What they could have done, is make it a kind of aoe mini shield. You throw it on someone and the nearby people get a "splash" of it on them. Less powerful than the original target but still protected. We have water skill, it can be a water shield!

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I imagine putting Divine Benison on a player and then doing Fluid Aura on him to "splash" the shield over the team lol.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

This part is great. :)

This would be better. Aside from CDR still not being interesting, not wiping out all the lilies every time you blink would help make it feel like a resource that you're supposed to manage and care about instead of "if it does something, okay, if not, whatever", which is what it is right now.

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Glad you approve :)

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Originally Posted by dejiko_san

What they could have done, is make it a kind of aoe mini shield. You throw it on someone and the nearby people get a "splash" of it on them. Less powerful than the original target but still protected. We have water skill, it can be a water shield!

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I wouldn't mind this. Heck, I wouldn't mind just more... Water things in general. The CNJ/WHM kit is very lacking in the Water department >>; I think the only spells / abilities I know that are considered Water affinity is Esuna and Fluid Aura (and heck, Esuna is now a cross role..).

Benison feels water like but I dunno if it counts as a subset of the "Holy" power that WHM gives.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Benison feels water like but I dunno if it counts as a subset of the "Holy" power that WHM gives.

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For Fluid Aura, Divine Benison and Thin Air, you can hear Water sound effect.
The others as Assize, Asylum, for me it's Light sound effect.

As a casual healer I can't find more than extremely situational use for Fluid Aura and Repose outside of sometimes when I'm soloing in Eureka and get too close to an extra mob. They need to be changed up or shuffled around.

Fluid Aura: Would it be too OP if Fluid Aura was replaced by Divine Benison's effect? Would it break the game if Fluid Aura put a 15% HP shield on our selves/target every 30s? It could upgrade and be replaced by Divine Benison which could have either an extended duration or maybe absorb a higher percentage of HP.

Or, if that would be too powerful, what about turning it into a small splash cure? Just a 100 potency instant heal that would hit the primary and maybe targets in close proximity to it? It could even tie into the Lily system later on like Asylum, Assize, Tetra, and the other OGCD heals.

Repose: Instead of being a sleep spell could it possibly become an aggro dump? We could really use another one of those that's not tied to our mana.

Just spitballing here I'm not sure how these might impact endgame.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

Or, if that would be too powerful, what about turning it into a small splash cure? Just a 100 potency instant heal that would hit the primary and maybe targets in close proximity to it? It could even tie into the Lily system later on like Asylum, Assize, Tetra, and the other OGCD heals.

Repose: Instead of being a sleep spell could it possibly become an aggro dump? We could really use another one of those that's not tied to our mana.

Just spitballing here I'm not sure how these might impact endgame.

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In my opinion WHM doesn't need any more potential healing, if anything our already amazing effective HPS could be why we see such a lack of literally anything else on the dps/utility side. Making Fluid Aura a heal is redundant but making it an early game DB could be interesting to start teaching new healers to weave an oGCD.

As for Repose - yes please! Or a threat queller like Diversion. Either would be really handy. We are the only healer without some sort of innate enmity management. I would prefer it at least go oGCD though then, seeing as AST and SCH don't need to do anything for their threat reductions.

Edit: I realize now this doesn't really tie in much to the OP but I still thought they were cool rehashes of otherwise unappreciated skills.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

For Fluid Aura, Divine Benison and Thin Air, you can hear Water sound effect.

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I figured as much for Benison, I never realized that for Thin Air until I examined it closer when prompted by this post. I guess with the name Thin "Air" I had assumed it to be of wind element. How wrong I was, heh.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

As a casual healer I can't find more than extremely situational use for Fluid Aura and Repose outside of sometimes when I'm soloing in Eureka and get too close to an extra mob. They need to be changed up or shuffled around.

Fluid Aura: Would it be too OP if Fluid Aura was replaced by Divine Benison's effect? Would it break the game if Fluid Aura put a 15% HP shield on our selves/target every 30s? It could upgrade and be replaced by Divine Benison which could have either an extended duration or maybe absorb a higher percentage of HP.

Or, if that would be too powerful, what about turning it into a small splash cure? Just a 100 potency instant heal that would hit the primary and maybe targets in close proximity to it? It could even tie into the Lily system later on like Asylum, Assize, Tetra, and the other OGCD heals.

Repose: Instead of being a sleep spell could it possibly become an aggro dump? We could really use another one of those that's not tied to our mana.

Just spitballing here I'm not sure how these might impact endgame.

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@Fluid Aura - Just expanding on this, it would be neat if Fluid Aura was a 10% shield and Divine Benison was a trait for Fluid Aura, giving it the current 15% and the ability to be augmented by Lilies. If we can change the effect of the Lilies around it would be a neat and thematic upgrade at that point.

Though I will admit I would miss the Knock Back as I've found some remote use for it on occasion, heh.

@Repose - A threat modifier would be nice, but I sorta enjoy the challenge of attempting to balance enmity on WHM so I might be biased against this, lol. Still, I'm in agreement with Moro about it being more of a enmity suppressant than an enmity dump if there were to be a change in that capacity.

Do Fluid Aura and Repose see a lot of action in upper floors of PotD? If so, I may be a bit less inclined to make changes as it would shift some of WHMs utility in that type of content.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Edit: I realize now this doesn't really tie in much to the OP but I still thought they were cool rehashes of otherwise unappreciated skills.

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I don't mind at all. Heck for all we know some comment like this might inspire S-E to have Repose and Fluid Aura changed and get some additional bonuses from Lilies as well.

My post was pretty hasty but mostly because I didn't know if changes to either if those would break upper level content.

Fluid Aura: The reason I suggested a splash heal wasn't because I thought we needed more heals but because it could have been tied into the Lily system if it were and only if the shield idea was too busted. I would much rather it became a shield and I really like the idea of it turning into Benison. You can then tie it into the lilies with things like extended duration per lily or improved defense % per lily.

Repose: A dampener or even a shifter but I have seen plenty of folks around the forums mentioning WHM lacks in this area so I figured some sort of threat reduction button would see more use. It fits as an oGCD and if the Lilies continue to effect oGCDs then it could benefit from the buffs and reductiins they bring.

You raise a good point with PoTD. I imagine they do indeed see use for high level solo play but if that's their only use...I would rather see them removed and the class otherwise tuned to compensate for their loss.

Honestly, if they prioritize diversifying the healers and tanks more, I think many of the DPS don't need much baseline changes moving forward into Not-Garlemald.

But god damn, do the tanks and healers need a facelift.

In order to fix the Lily system without encouraging improper play I think adding RNG to the Cure spells again is necessary. Making Cure 1 proc a Lily 90% of the time, Cure 2 proc 70%, and add Cure 3 at 50% for Secret of the Lillies without any changes to the ability recast reduction. This way a struggling White Mage will still see a lot of them but it isn't guaranteed. Secret of the Lily 2 would add the ability to attain a Lily from 10 Seconds of cumulative cast time. Stand still casting for 10 Secs and you get a Lily with no RNG to fuss over. Instant Cast spells wouldn't apply to this though. It encourages you to cast anything and Cure Spells would give you an extra chance for a Lily. At 68 I would have an Ability called "Full Bloom" (duration 10 secs and recast 20 secs) that sacrifices all held Lilies to reduce the Cast Time and Recast Time of your next spell by 15% per Lily consumed. At 3 Lilies you get a 45% reduction and this would be more beneficial the longer the cast time of the spell so Raise is an obvious choice. It could be weaved to increase the speed of anything and it would make Lilies apply to the entire toolkit for the WHM which is great since these 2 new Traits would spawn a lot more Lilies and subtly allow for an increase to the pDPS of WHM. Presence of Mind combined with Full Bloom would be amazing. It would still call for clipping occasionally unlike AST but the increased spell speed is a win overall. It would help separate WHM and AST into more distinct healers.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

In order to fix the Lily system without encouraging improper play I think adding RNG to the Cure spells again is necessary. Making Cure 1 proc a Lily 90% of the time, Cure 2 proc 70%, and add Cure 3 at 50% for Secret of the Lillies without any changes to the ability recast reduction. This way a struggling White Mage will still see a lot of them but it isn't guaranteed. Secret of the Lily 2 would add the ability to attain a Lily from 10 Seconds of cumulative cast time. Stand still casting for 10 Secs and you get a Lily with no RNG to fuss over. Instant Cast spells wouldn't apply to this though. It encourages you to cast anything and Cure Spells would give you an extra chance for a Lily. At 68 I would have an Ability called "Full Bloom" (duration 10 secs and recast 20 secs) that sacrifices all held Lilies to reduce the Cast Time and Recast Time of your next spell by 15% per Lily consumed. At 3 Lilies you could reduce a single spell's cast time by 45% and this would be more beneficial the longer the cast time of the spell so Raise is an obvious choice. It could be weaved to increase the speed of anything and it would make Lilies apply to the entire toolkit for the WHM which is great since these 2 new Traits would spawn a lot more Lilies and subtly allow for an increase to the pDPS of WHM. Presence of Mind combined with Full Bloom would be amazing. It would still call for clipping occasionally unlike AST but the increased spell speed is a win overall. It would help separate WHM and AST into more distinct healers.

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The generation of your lillies here is still reliant on casting two spells no one wants to cast and one spell that's very situational. The WHM kit revolving around Cure and Cure II is like an AST needing to cast Benefic/Benefic II in order to access card actions - silly gating for no good reason.

Plus we've been down the RNG road before - RNG CD reduction is useless, just like the old Spear card.

I appreciate the ides of the 62 trait but I don't know that it could work in practice. With the way these servers perform I would worry that continuous casting would often be missed due to latency or gaps would be created by latency.

Full Bloom would kind of help clipping but would just create it's own clipping - you would likely clip to use it then not clip your second GCD if you had an oGCD to use in that window. If this reduced cast and recast (like PoM) it could have an appreciable pDPS increase (though I don't think it does based on your points about it helping clipping) but without that I don't think WHM clips enough now (or would see enough reduction in clipping with this ability) for it to be a meaningful change.

Overall, in my opinion, a step in the wrong direction though another interesting idea.

I mentioned specifically that "Full Bloom" would reduce both Cast and Recast Time. It isn't meant to function like the Ast Malefic spells and solve clipping but instead give WHM a way to pinch out a single spell faster. Optimally, you would squeeze Full Bloom behind any instant spell since you could go over 30 seconds stacking 3 lilies without using any Cure spells and either Aero or Regen should wear off in that time frame. The Lily generating cast time would probably only come from completed spells and not interrupted ones tho since the time spent casting in these is undisputable. The RNG bit is to discourage needlessly spamming Cure because it won't be 100% effective and the cool down on Full Bloom would make it pointless to stack Lilies rapidly as well. All in all it's meant to reward the way top tier players play while giving a struggling WHM a little help too. Single target heal spells naturally leave enough space to slide in Full Bloom so it would make panic healing easier.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

My post was pretty hasty but mostly because I didn't know if changes to either if those would break upper level content.

Fluid Aura: The reason I suggested a splash heal wasn't because I thought we needed more heals but because it could have been tied into the Lily system if it were and only if the shield idea was too busted. I would much rather it became a shield and I really like the idea of it turning into Benison. You can then tie it into the lilies with things like extended duration per lily or improved defense % per lily.

Repose: A dampener or even a shifter but I have seen plenty of folks around the forums mentioning WHM lacks in this area so I figured some sort of threat reduction button would see more use. It fits as an oGCD and if the Lilies continue to effect oGCDs then it could benefit from the buffs and reductiins they bring.

You raise a good point with PoTD. I imagine they do indeed see use for high level solo play but if that's their only use...I would rather see them removed and the class otherwise tuned to compensate for their loss.

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I only bring up the PotD thing because it's the only content I can think of off hand that may be affected by your changes. I don't think they're bad persay but I feel like we need something... more.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Honestly, if they prioritize diversifying the healers and tanks more, I think many of the DPS don't need much baseline changes moving forward into Not-Garlemald.

But god damn, do the tanks and healers need a facelift.

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I feel some of us healers would be less worried about balance as long as each job was unique and fit a specific niche. We wouldn't want gulfs in the balance, but having small gaps would be okay and can easily be patched up here or there.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

In order to fix the Lily system without encouraging improper play I think adding RNG to the Cure spells again is necessary. Making Cure 1 proc a Lily 90% of the time, Cure 2 proc 70%, and add Cure 3 at 50% for Secret of the Lillies without any changes to the ability recast reduction. This way a struggling White Mage will still see a lot of them but it isn't guaranteed. Secret of the Lily 2 would add the ability to attain a Lily from 10 Seconds of cumulative cast time. Stand still casting for 10 Secs and you get a Lily with no RNG to fuss over. Instant Cast spells wouldn't apply to this though. It encourages you to cast anything and Cure Spells would give you an extra chance for a Lily. At 68 I would have an Ability called "Full Bloom" (duration 10 secs and recast 20 secs) that sacrifices all held Lilies to reduce the Cast Time and Recast Time of your next spell by 15% per Lily consumed. At 3 Lilies you get a 45% reduction and this would be more beneficial the longer the cast time of the spell so Raise is an obvious choice. It could be weaved to increase the speed of anything and it would make Lilies apply to the entire toolkit for the WHM which is great since these 2 new Traits would spawn a lot more Lilies and subtly allow for an increase to the pDPS of WHM. Presence of Mind combined with Full Bloom would be amazing. It would still call for clipping occasionally unlike AST but the increased spell speed is a win overall. It would help separate WHM and AST into more distinct healers.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

I mentioned specifically that "Full Bloom" would reduce both Cast and Recast Time. It isn't meant to function like the Ast Malefic spells and solve clipping but instead give WHM a way to pinch out a single spell faster. Optimally, you would squeeze Full Bloom behind any instant spell since you could go over 30 seconds stacking 3 lilies without using any Cure spells and either Aero or Regen should wear off in that time frame. The Lily generating cast time would probably only come from completed spells and not interrupted ones tho since the time spent casting in these is undisputable. The RNG bit is to discourage needlessly spamming Cure because it won't be 100% effective and the cool down on Full Bloom would make it pointless to stack Lilies rapidly as well. All in all it's meant to reward the way top tier players play while giving a struggling WHM a little help too. Single target heal spells naturally leave enough space to slide in Full Bloom so it would make panic healing easier.

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I am in agreement with Moro about their assessment. I do like the idea of it and find it interesting but it still feels somewhat counter intuitive to optimized healer play. The "full bloom" ability itself can be useful for a "burn all the lilies" mechanic if we see a Lily rework that's more conducive to ABC-thought process that revolves around growing and burning lilies in a planned way.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

I mentioned specifically that "Full Bloom" would reduce both Cast and Recast Time. It isn't meant to function like the Ast Malefic spells and solve clipping but instead give WHM a way to pinch out a single spell faster. Optimally, you would squeeze Full Bloom behind any instant spell since you could go over 30 seconds stacking 3 lilies without using any Cure spells and either Aero or Regen should wear off in that time frame. The Lily generating cast time would probably only come from completed spells and not interrupted ones tho since the time spent casting in these is undisputable. The RNG bit is to discourage needlessly spamming Cure because it won't be 100% effective and the cool down on Full Bloom would make it pointless to stack Lilies rapidly as well. All in all it's meant to reward the way top tier players play while giving a struggling WHM a little help too. Single target heal spells naturally leave enough space to slide in Full Bloom so it would make panic healing easier.

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I'm sorry, I just don't see how this helps. In my opinion it's doomed from the start based solely on the spells it procs from and the fact that latency would either make it abusable (if it counted slidecasted spells) or unusable (if minor lag could cause the 10sec timer to reset because your spell didn't queue properly) plus using any instant or oGCD in there (which would clip and halt lily generation) would punish you specifically for playing correctly.

I just don't like it. There's potential there for sure but this in it's current iteration wouldn't really help WHM in my opinion.