With all this DRK feedback, can we get Scourge back please?

I really miss it. There was just something about its animation that felt so incredibly satisfying to use and the duration was perfect with our kit at 60. Please return it like Miasma 2 came back for SCH.

It was just a DoT. The animation was basic, at best, and the last thing DRK needs is a DoT that doesn't branch off of anything. What it needs is the old Delirium combo ender as an additional combo ender that builds MP.

The animation absolutely needs to come back; it was one of the most satisfying GCDs to hit in the entire game from an aesthetic standpoint.

In the absence of a drastic overhaul to DRK's entire toolkit, I think that bringing back Scourge would at least put a reasonable dent in the performance deficit DRK is currently in, as long as it's actually Scourge, the 1-GCD non-combo DoT, and not a cut-rate Goring Blade combo finisher.

It wouldn't fit into 4.x DRK's toolkit nearly as cleanly as it did in 3.x, given the addition of Bloodspiller, but it wouldn't necessarily need to.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

It was just a DoT. The animation was basic, at best, and the last thing DRK needs is a DoT that doesn't branch off of anything. What it needs is the old Delirium combo ender as an additional combo ender that builds MP.

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- Scourge was our most powerful skill (550 potency)
- the animation was GREAT. Even the sfx was great. It was like a meme of the DRK.

Same for the Delirium animation, was far better than SE one...

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Originally Posted by Crater

The animation absolutely needs to come back; it was one of the most satisfying GCDs to hit in the entire game from an aesthetic standpoint.

In the absence of a drastic overhaul to DRK's entire toolkit, I think that bringing back Scourge would at least put a reasonable dent in the performance deficit DRK is currently in, as long as it's actually Scourge, the 1-GCD non-combo DoT, and not a cut-rate Goring Blade combo finisher.

It wouldn't fit into 4.x DRK's toolkit nearly as cleanly as it did in 3.x, given the addition of Bloodspiller, but it wouldn't necessarily need to.

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Thank you.

So many folks keep asking for Scourge to be added as a ghetto Goring Blade because they want more complexity without realizing that a combo ender DOT would be absolutely awful on DRK because their rotation is not predictable due to Bloodspiller.

If they do add Scourge back (which I wouldn't necessarily mind), it needs to be like old Touch of Death on MNK: Single hit, and NOT break combo.

Both blood spilled and skin should be on off as a 3 sec cd

SE needed to consolidate DoT's due to raid bosses only being able to handle 60 debuffs on the target. Which is why we saw removal of DoT's across the board. I can tell you that as a SMN in VA or even Diadem it was incredibly frustrating to only get Bio up as Bio 2 and Miasma wouldn't get registered due to the cap and a SMN using Fester with 1 dot is just ..... While I don't care if the animation comes back the DoT removal is my biggest concern.

DRG, MNK, NIN, SMN, SCH, WHM, and War all saw the same removal of DoT's as DRK did. And since Fracture was a cross skill PLD did as well.

Bring it back as a second dps combo finisher that way it's led into rather than a set it and forget it DOT.

Machinist, too. Lead Shot.
What if Scourge was back as another ability that consumed the blood gauge and had twice the duration, like Higenbana? People keep using Dark Knight's supposed high uptime DPS as a reason it doesn't need more damage, well in that case go all out with the DPS uptime, screw it.

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

Bring it back as a second dps combo finisher that way it's led into rather than a set it and forget it DOT.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

Thank you.

So many folks keep asking for Scourge to be added as a ghetto Goring Blade because they want more complexity without realizing that a combo ender DOT would be absolutely awful on DRK because their rotation is not predictable due to Bloodspiller.

If they do add Scourge back (which I wouldn't necessarily mind), it needs to be like old Touch of Death on MNK: Single hit, and NOT break combo.

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Uh...yeah. You'd drop Scourge or clip it due to random 4th GCDs because of Bloodspiller or Quietus. It can't be a combo finisher unless they change those skills to oGCD, which then means they have to adjust the potency to accommodate that and...that becomes a lot of hassle instead of making it a standalone DOT.

Why not make Scourge combo off of Syphon Strike and use 3.xx Delirium animation? I've been suggesting it since after Stormblood launch... can still call it Scourge... could also have DoT generate 2 blood gauge per tick,have the usual combo potency with DA Potency of 440(990 potency and gives 50 blood if Dot is still active)... I'm just not a big fan of the 3.xx Scourge animation... and que flame war...

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

Thank you.

So many folks keep asking for Scourge to be added as a ghetto Goring Blade because they want more complexity without realizing that a combo ender DOT would be absolutely awful on DRK because their rotation is not predictable due to Bloodspiller.

If they do add Scourge back (which I wouldn't necessarily mind), it needs to be like old Touch of Death on MNK: Single hit, and NOT break combo.

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It was already not only the strongest open DoT in the game, but the outright strongest single-target skill in the game in its time. As much as I'd like to see it returned in some form (I was honestly hoping to see it be returned in a conal AoE via Quietus, preferably inflicting a leeching DoT that stacks, but alas that is too advanced for our code -- if any skill looks "Blood"-y, it's Scourge, after all), it doesn't need to be both open AND combo-noninterruptive.

What if they added Scourges DoT effect to DA DP. DP 150 potency to all enemies in a cone before you +blind 15s. DA potency 200 + DoT of 40 for 30s. (600 potency for half MP isn't bad at all and could be used for single target) the DoT could have fall off if necessary for balance.

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Originally Posted by kashi11

What if they added Scourges DoT effect to DA DP. DP 150 potency to all enemies in a cone before you +blind 15s. DA potency 200 + DoT of 40 for 30s. (600 potency for half MP isn't bad at all and could be used for single target) the DoT could have fall off if necessary for balance.

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I would like the DRK becomes more original.
For exemple, make Scourge back, but instead of the classical dot, make this skill like: every tick of dmg (not a lot), bring back the same amount of mana, or something like that.
A new way to recover mana, and so, make more damages. I think that could make the DRK very very more interresting and the equivalent of the others tanks.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

I would like the DRK becomes more original.
For exemple, make Scourge back, but instead of the classical dot, make this skill like: every tick of dmg (not a lot), bring back the same amount of mana, or something like that.
A new way to recover mana, and so, make more damages. I think that could make the DRK very very more interresting and the equivalent of the others tanks.

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I really like this idea, but maybe instead of MP, make it where if you use Dark Arts Scourge, it returns Blood per tick much like Salted Earth.

I would like my blood skill to have some tanking utility (outside of dmg) under grit. Quiets giving mana is nice as is allow an easy chain of skills, but the other one sucks' it's just damage

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

the other one sucks' it's just damage

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It's your hardest hitting ability.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I really like this idea, but maybe instead of MP, make it where if you use Dark Arts Scourge, it returns Blood per tick much like Salted Earth.

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Could be good too, but I prefer MP.
Currently, MP is used for: enmity generation, dps, shield... And some other thing. We almost have Salted Earth, TBN and our main combo for Blood generation, but almost nothing for mp (Syphon Strike w/o Grit is very weak and w/ Grit Blood Price is... Meh with only one or two targets.)

I think doing that will make the DRK better: in gameplay term and dps too.

How about:

Scourge:
Weapon Skill
Blood Cost: 50

100 (175 in Grit) potency + 300 potency over 6 seconds
Enemy STR/DEX/INT/MND is reduced by 10% for 6 seconds

DRKS weakness is downtime. While the other 2 tanks can plan heavy burst around it, DRKS high sustain damage takes a big hit during windows of downtime.
Bringing scourge back on ts original form would help close this gap in most scenarios.
The only time it would not is during long downtime where the boss is invulnerable.
Even so, I'm all for this change.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

DRKS weakness is downtime. While the other 2 tanks can plan heavy burst around it, DRKS high sustain damage takes a big hit during windows of downtime.
Bringing scourge back on ts original form would help close this gap in most scenarios.
The only time it would not is during long downtime where the boss is invulnerable.
Even so, I'm all for this change.

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Before SB, the idea was like DRK don't really has a burst but it deals good damages during the whole fight, very constent. I would like to go back to that, that was the reason I played DRK over WAR in HW.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

Before SB, the idea was like DRK don't really has a burst but it deals good damages during the whole fight, very constent. I would like to go back to that, that was the reason I played DRK over WAR in HW.

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That aspect of the job hasn't changed much. We're still heavy flat lined sustain damage. Scourge would only compliment the current playstyle and allow our damage to stay sustained while we can't reach the boss. Our potencies are higher than the other 2 tanks, which is exactly why the downtime kills our dps so much.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

SE needed to consolidate DoT's due to raid bosses only being able to handle 60 debuffs on the target. Which is why we saw removal of DoT's across the board. I can tell you that as a SMN in VA or even Diadem it was incredibly frustrating to only get Bio up as Bio 2 and Miasma wouldn't get registered due to the cap and a SMN using Fester with 1 dot is just ..... While I don't care if the animation comes back the DoT removal is my biggest concern.

DRG, MNK, NIN, SMN, SCH, WHM, and War all saw the same removal of DoT's as DRK did. And since Fracture was a cross skill PLD did as well.

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This post really deserves more attention. There's more going on than just taking your toys away when se makes decisions like this. They cleaned house on dots for a VERY good reason across the board. Bringing back dots literally isn't good for the game on a technical level. Never mind 1 hit dot maintenance is terribly bland gameplay and other reasons.

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Originally Posted by Aana

This post really deserves more attention. There's more going on than just taking your toys away when se makes decisions like this. They cleaned house on dots for a VERY good reason across the board.

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Incredibly, the game did not fall apart and they didn't need to drop another Dalamud on it when SE reintroduced Miasma II into Scholar rotations.

SE deciding to get rid of DoTs "across the board" was not some wise, sage decision that was made after very carefully considering every single repercussion and determining that there was just no other way forward. It was a sweeping, heavy-handed "Get rid of ALL X" blunder that created at least as many problems as it solved, because they didn't think it through, and they didn't consider that not all of those DoTs were of equal importance to every class they were taken away from.

Scourge was not Aero, Combust, or Bio; weak DoTs that produce less (or essential equal) damage to the filler direct-damage attacks that healers have. It wasn't Fracture; a skill that was used to manipulate your GCD order more than it was used for its damage; or even a Mutilate; a skill that needed to tick for 18-21+ seconds and avoid replacing a combo finisher before it became worthwhile to use.

Not all DoTs are equal, not all DoTs contribute equally to class performance and playstyle. Scourge, Touch of Death, and Lead Shot were all extremely valuable to their respective classes and should not have been thrown away in some overreaching blanket DoT ban without being given substantial compensatory buffs and large class redesigns to mitigate that damage.

Machinist got substantial buffs and a total class overhaul to compensate for the loss of Lead Shot - now Machinist is in a very good place.
Monk did not get substantial buffs or a class overhaul to compensate for the loss of Touch of Death - now Monk is in the dumpster.

Dark Knight got more nerfs than buffs, and a stripped down version of its former toolkit rather than a class overhaul. Two guesses where it is right now. Actually, no, I don't trust you to get that one right: It's in the dumpster, right alongside MNK, SAM, and BLM.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury

That aspect of the job hasn't changed much. We're still heavy flat lined sustain damage. Scourge would only compliment the current playstyle and allow our damage to stay sustained while we can't reach the boss. Our potencies are higher than the other 2 tanks, which is exactly why the downtime kills our dps so much.

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And it results to the worst dps of the three tanks.

I mean, SE clearly wants to make a burst with Bloodspiller, but it doesn't works at all, and it just feel like a low-cost PLD burst. Why not remake the DRK like it really was in HW? That's why the DRK was played a lot. He was different from the others tanks.

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Originally Posted by Aana

This post really deserves more attention. There's more going on than just taking your toys away when se makes decisions like this. They cleaned house on dots for a VERY good reason across the board. Bringing back dots literally isn't good for the game on a technical level. Never mind 1 hit dot maintenance is terribly bland gameplay and other reasons.

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If this is really an issue to add back one more dot to the game they could always modify it to be a personal buff rather than a dot on the boss. For example make Scourge oGCD with a 30 second cooldown that enhances our dark side to deal damage temporarily. This doesn't have to be an on off decision in terms of dots, isn't 1 push game play, and adds an oGCD to a class that saw the removal of so many.

I'm also not convinced one more dot would break the game, nor am I convinced that Scourage was the best move to remove. If anything I would think they would have removed Paladin's Circle of Scorn as a dot, give them the damage of upfront rather than deal it as dot damage, then there is room for 1 more dot in the game.

My real question is why it seems like so little care was taken to balance and design Dark Knight, but other classes saw so much care put into their design. At release, Dark Knight *apparently* needed all these nerfs and then got a 5% boost to its darkside. There are just so many questionable and poor choices that were made with this class IMO, and I just cannot explain why.

1, People didn't like the two rotation life of Paladin. Why not try it on dark knight?

2. People play Dark knight because it has all these oGCD moves that make the class feel fast paced. Why not remove most of them and add almost no oGCD skills back? To add to this: Let's double down and remove one of dark knights hardest hitting moves and replace it with another hard hitting move that doesn't make up the difference between Scourge and oGCD skills! The follow up I imagine was Dark Knight being undertuned, so lets just buff darkside and call it a day.

3. People don't like that 3.x Dark Knight has some anti-synergy in its kit. Why don't we remove the synergy that is there (dark dance + reprisal or dark dance + low blow) and leave the anti-synergy (blind + blood price, stun + blood price)?

4. Lets standardize Dark Arts as a damaging buffing move, but lets keep it as a cost for tank defense as well!

5. People look at Dark knight as a Paladin clone, lets remove some of its enfeeblement identity to help make it stand out.

6. Dark Knight has strong AOE game, better nerf Dark Passenger! Oh better add more AOE, lets give an AOE move using Blood!

I get that things needed to change, there would be no room on our hot bars if they didn't remove abilities, I get that they needed to accommodate their servers so some instances would work as intended. What I don't get is why they took so little care with some classes. I don't see how it is good design to ignore why your player base plays a certain class and then radically change the class from one expansion to the next. If your hands were tied and you needed to gut one class in particular, at least put in the time to make sure that the spirit of the class was maintained or even improved. Right now Paladin feels more like 3.x Dark Knight, more than 4.x Dark Knight feels like 3.x dark knight, and that is just a weird thing to happen in an expansion.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

5. People look at Dark knight as a Paladin clone, lets remove some of its enfeeblement identity to help make it stand out.

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All tanks had to lose their enfeeblements, as those were being used as reason to not bring PLD.

Even if we still had debuffs on Delirium, Rage of Halone, and Storm's Path, DRK would be at the bottom because the majority of Tankbusters are physical, and DRK has the least to contribute to raidwide damage.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

snip

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PLD uses the most buttons in the game right now... 3 of which are ability bloat because 4 player party dungeons (Flash, AoE spin attack, and GCD stun), which just so happens to work better with gamepad users who use the WXHB feature(somehow...) and they basically the exception to this rule of cutting ability bloat... REALLY GREAT BALANCING DECISION!!!

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

All tanks had to lose their enfeeblements, as those were being used as reason to not bring PLD.

Even if we still had debuffs on Delirium, Rage of Halone, and Storm's Path, DRK would be at the bottom because the majority of Tankbusters are physical, and DRK has the least to contribute to raidwide damage.

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Would have made more sense to make DRK the enfeeblement tank that specializes in lifesteal for tanking and would give DRK a better identity than it already has right or even during Heavensward! But instead we got a "tank" that hates everything including themselves... que the Linkin Park playlists going on until 5.0 because things are going to get even cringier... And if DRK start sparkling in bright light like those "vampires" from... "Twilight Saga" of all things.... *bleugh* then we will know something went HORRIBLY WRONG...

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

All tanks had to lose their enfeeblements, as those were being used as reason to not bring PLD.

Even if we still had debuffs on Delirium, Rage of Halone, and Storm's Path, DRK would be at the bottom because the majority of Tankbusters are physical, and DRK has the least to contribute to raidwide damage.

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Far more busters are magical in my experience actually. Giving both warrior and dark a 100% uptime on raid mitigation is clearly a reason against bringing paladin, having 1 tank which provides this is not, it then becomes something unique which only one tank brings. Really it is ok to think to yourself hmm, I wish I was tank x right now it could handle this so much better. Its not ok to feel like a job brings nothing of value in most situations.

For example, it is fine for Paladin to have a raid wide shield. It is fine for Warrior to have a raid wide shield. It isn't fine that two tanks bring a raid wide shield and the third option doesn't, as you noted, this is just a reason to not run that third tank.

I don't think that the jobs should be homogenized, but I do think they need to be able to bring something that is valuable to the group as a whole and is unique. If one tank shields, while another tank lowers damage, while yet another tank provides life/resource steal, that gives three ways of handling raid damage in three unique ways each of which has its own down side.

(option 1 scales off player HP but provides static reductions, option 2 mitigates variable damage but requires a target, and option 3 requires a target and for the party members to live through the attack but has great synergy with the first two options)

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Originally Posted by Crater

Incredibly, the game did not fall apart and they didn't need to drop another Dalamud on it when SE reintroduced Miasma II into Scholar rotations.

SE deciding to get rid of DoTs "across the board" was not some wise, sage decision that was made after very carefully considering every single repercussion and determining that there was just no other way forward. It was a sweeping, heavy-handed "Get rid of ALL X" blunder that created at least as many problems as it solved, because they didn't think it through, and they didn't consider that not all of those DoTs were of equal importance to every class they were taken away from.

Scourge was not Aero, Combust, or Bio; weak DoTs that produce less (or essential equal) damage to the filler direct-damage attacks that healers have. It wasn't Fracture; a skill that was used to manipulate your GCD order more than it was used for its damage; or even a Mutilate; a skill that needed to tick for 18-21+ seconds and avoid replacing a combo finisher before it became worthwhile to use.

Not all DoTs are equal, not all DoTs contribute equally to class performance and playstyle. Scourge, Touch of Death, and Lead Shot were all extremely valuable to their respective classes and should not have been thrown away in some overreaching blanket DoT ban without being given substantial compensatory buffs and large class redesigns to mitigate that damage.

Machinist got substantial buffs and a total class overhaul to compensate for the loss of Lead Shot - now Machinist is in a very good place.
Monk did not get substantial buffs or a class overhaul to compensate for the loss of Touch of Death - now Monk is in the dumpster.

Dark Knight got more nerfs than buffs, and a stripped down version of its former toolkit rather than a class overhaul. Two guesses where it is right now. Actually, no, I don't trust you to get that one right: It's in the dumpster, right alongside MNK, SAM, and BLM.

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They removed non combo dots. You can make the exact same argument for phlebotomize. It was the single biggest potency gcd on the class whos only purpose is to deal damage. Scourge is the exact same thing as fracture, but because fracture had shit potency and scourge didn't it's somehow God's gift to tanks. Combo oriented classes that had 1 bitton, apply 30 sec dot got killed. Its a core part of drk? At least fracture was used on 3 different jobs strategically to manipulate the rotation. Thats more engaging than scourge ever was.

The only reason people want scourgr back is because it looked cool. If damage is your primary concern there is no reason it needs to be through a 1 button gcd on a combo class.

1 dot won't kill the game? Let's see how long it takes SMN to notice getting cred in eureka to make their relics is harder on dot classes in open world trying to grind out the best weapon in the tier. 5, 4, 3, 2,....

Scourge is a flat skill that provides damage in the most passive way possible. That's not iconic for a class known for its a pm. You like the animation? Drgs miss their poledance too.

Scourge objectively offered nothing but a damage boost. If se wants you to do more damage they would just type a different number in any number of potency boxes. It's the exact same as fracture and phleb. Nothing iconic. Nothing job specific. Just dots to make smns cry in open world content.

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Originally Posted by Aana

They removed non combo dots. You can make the exact same argument for phlebotomize. It was the single biggest potency gcd on the class whos only purpose is to deal damage. Scourge is the exact same thing as fracture, but because fracture had shit potency and scourge didn't it's somehow God's gift to tanks. Combo oriented classes that had 1 bitton, apply 30 sec dot got killed. Its a core part of drk? At least fracture was used on 3 different jobs strategically to manipulate the rotation. Thats more engaging than scourge ever was.

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Except on Samurai and Paladin. SAM clearly didn't retain its dot being a new class, but if the reason for not having non-combo dots is entirely for SMN benefit I don't see why SAM would be designed with one or why Paladin would retain its dot on Circle of Scorn. I'm a bit sketchy on an argument that all combo based classes needed to lose non-combo dots when 2/7's of them have one. Also I'm relatively certain Chaos Thrust was HW Dragoon's highest ppgcd, but my memory is weak and my knowledge of Dragoon is questionable.

As far as Fracture, I know 1 non-warrior tank in the top 10 in Alexander (on only 1 fight to be very clear) who actually used fracture, and even there the other 9 out of 10 did not use fracture. Not exactly engaging for other tanks (except I guess in that very very small percentage of cases where it might be a consideration), but certainly had its uses for warrior.

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Originally Posted by Aana

1 dot won't kill the game? Let's see how long it takes SMN to notice getting cred in eureka to make their relics is harder on dot classes in open world trying to grind out the best weapon in the tier. 5, 4, 3, 2,....

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I would like to point for a second time that there is no reason that Scourge needs to come back as a dot. I imagine it could be redesigned as an oGCD selfbuff like salted earth and avoid the issue of there being a cap on dots entirely. It could retain its animation, but be oGCD and that avoids all the issues which have been raised. I for one would love to see some more oGCD on DRK that isn't Dark Arts spam.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Scourge objectively offered nothing but a damage boost. If se wants you to do more damage they would just type a different number in any number of potency boxes. It's the exact same as fracture and phleb. Nothing iconic. Nothing job specific.

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As someone who played dark knight all through HW I actually liked the dot management that came with the DRK, and was rewarding because better uptime was rewarded. People are asking for it back, apparently they liked the way that it interacted with the game play of dark knight too. Thats despite what you have pointed out. Personally I think it would be great for the class since they decided to make it a two combo class (and really effectively 1 combo class), it would go a long way in breaking up the soul eater spam DRK currently has.

This whole argument that the reason DoTs were nixed was because 24 person groups, hunts, and Diadem rings rather hollow to me, since, although frustrating, when did a DoT make or break such incredibly difficult, critical hardcore encounters? I personally believe SE just removed (most) of them because they figured it was too many more buttons to press, not realizing it wasn't that simple for some jobs. All sentiments that have already been said, of course.

It's just frustrating for a lot of players I think, that Dark Knight has lost a lot of outgoing sources of its damage that needed to be combined together to feel like a fully functioning class.
We used to have to juggle Low Blow and Reprisal along with using Salted Earth, Carve & Spit, Plunge and Dark Passenger on cooldown, all while timing dark arts between and the balance between Scourge and Delirium.
Now holding onto dark arts has become much more restrictive, there is no more Low Blow/Reprisal, and Dark Passenger is useless, so you're really only looking at Salted Earth, Plunge and Carve and Spit as alternatives besides Bloodspiller/Souleater to...well...be an entire Dark Knight, frankly. 5 ways to do damage.

For comparison, Warrior has Onslaught, Upheaval, Fell Cleave, Vengeance, Storm's Path and Eye, 7, while Paladin has...gosh, let's see, Shield Swipe, Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn, Holy Spirit, Requiescat, Goring Blade, Royal Authority, also 7, if you don't want to count Sword Oath uptime as its own source of damage.

Even Plunge also feels like a punishment to use, with its reduced range and animation lock, while Dragoon and Ninja have been getting quicker animations and Warrior and Monk can just zip right at anything with no care in the world. There's a fat chance of getting Reprisal and Low Blow back in any recognizable form, and SE has been notably stubborn on wanting Dark Passenger to be an absolute joke.

Scholars getting Miasma II back gives just the smallest flame of hope that we can get some form of differentiating damage besides just being the Salted Bloodspiller class with a Carve and Spit once in a while. It's weird, Dark Knight feels almost more like a healer with its rotation now.

i said it again somewhere but i am glad that they removed the dot. sure, the animation was cool and DRK lacks damage right now and it seems that scourge could fill that dps gap - but however, there are other ways to bring DRK on par dps wise and i like the fact that i finally can play a class without a dot (ok, salted earth technically IS a dot...). it was so annoying that every single class had to manage dots until the 4.0 change... more variety please! (and yeah, dark arts spam isn't really what i consider better than keeping a dot running, but i don't want the dot back anyway).

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Originally Posted by Aana

They removed non combo dots.

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Thunder
Bio I/II/III
Miasma
Miasma II
Windbite/Stormbite
Venomous Bite/Caustic Bite
Aero III
Aero I/II
Higanbana
Circle of Scorn

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You can make the exact same argument for phlebotomize.

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You can, and it was okay because Dragoon received a huge overhaul to its core class gameplay.

Full Thrust got bumped up from 360 potency to 450 potency since 3.x. If Souleater had gone from 280 base potency to 370, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Power Surge was removed, and was instead built into each and every Jump that a Dragoon does, while the other parameters of Jump were unchanged. If Dark Passenger had kept its HW MP cost and potency and had simply had the Dark Arts Blind and 100 potency built in, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Dragoon went from 4 GCDs per combo to 5 GCDs per combo, with the 4th and 5th GCDs bumped up to 300 and 400 potency respectively. If Delirium were a 4th combo GCD on Dark Knight with a potency of 350+, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The Heavensward class mechanic of Dragoon consuming their BotD timer to use Geirskogul was removed and replaced with a powerful second-stage upgrade to BotD that gives the class a huge burst of damage under LotD. The Heavensward class mechanic of Dark Knight gaining tons of potency from Parrying and taking damage in general was removed and replaced with absolutely nothing.

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1 dot won't kill the game? Let's see how long it takes SMN to notice getting cred in eureka to make their relics is harder on dot classes in open world trying to grind out the best weapon in the tier. 5, 4, 3, 2,....

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No it won't kill the game, don't be dense.

In Heavensward, every class could apply 3-4 DoTs or other high-uptime debuffs except for BRD (2 DoTs), BLM, and MCH (1 DoT each). In Stormblood, no class except SCH (after the restoration of Miasma II) can apply more than 2 high-uptime debuffs. Dark Knight can apply zero. Restoring Scourge is not going to cause a single problem. Period.

Scourge had its faults. It was probably one of the biggest places where players lost dps in HW outside of pure uptime/autos and it forced rotational structure on a job which was freeform in all other respects. But the one nice thing about Scourge was that people didn't see it as Fell Cleave. It could be a 500 potency dot and nobody would complain about it. There is a strict upper cap on how powerful Bloodspiller can be, simply because there's an expectation that it "must" be weaker than Fell Cleave (since WAR is the "offensive tank".)

The solution is not to bring back Scourge, but to ensure that DRK is adequately compensated for its loss.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There is a strict upper cap on how powerful Bloodspiller can be, simply because there's an expectation that it "must" be weaker than Fell Cleave (since WAR is the "offensive tank".)

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Which is a really weird thought to me, as someone who has mained WAR and DRK.

It takes more time to build up enough blood to use bloodspiller than to build up BG to use Fell Cleave, unless you count the 50 blood you get from TBN. Which can be used far more frequently than Infuriate can, but Infuriate has a long cooldown time instead of a massive resource cost. Fell Cleave is saved to be spammed during WAR's burst phases... I don't know whether there's any proper strategy to be used for bloodspiller.

I really don't like comparing the two. With all these factors on each side, just a minor adjustment could have unintended consequences.

You're absolutely correct. In terms of raw damage, Bloodspiller doesn't compare to Fell Cleave (even comparing it as a 540 potency attack under DA to a 650 potency one under Berserk). In terms of frequency, if you look at the best DRK performances on a given fight, Bloodspiller gets used less frequently than either Holy Spirit or Fell Cleave. As a result, you'll see both HS and FC have a significantly larger contribution to PLD and WAR's dps (more than autos), while Bloodspiller has a lower contribution to total dps than autos. Ideally you want to fit in more Bloodspillers under raid buffs (TA/Embolden/Hypercharge) and infusions, but there's no simple way to queue them up and spam it like you can on the other two jobs, and there's no fixed personal buff window in which you can do so.

It just doesn't offer up enough to offset what we lost.

Balance arguments aside, it's really a crime that Bloodspiller, with its incredibly dramatic animation that ends in a giant black Ahk Morn beam shooting up into the sky is a less powerful attack than Fell Cleave with it's wussy little axe lovetap.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Balance arguments aside, it's really a crime that Bloodspiller, with its incredibly dramatic animation that ends in a giant black Ahk Morn beam shooting up into the sky is a less powerful attack than Fell Cleave with it's wussy little axe lovetap.

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Yep, Bloodspiller is one of the coolest looking attacks in the whole game, you spiral through the air like something out of Metal Gear Rising and dunk the unfortunate target, on top of the black beam blasting into the air.

It's one of the most satisfying attacks in an MMO I've played, apart from needing to be stronger IMO.