SE, can you fix RDM's aggro?

I really tired about horrible happen this....

I played DRK as tank.
Many times runs in dungeons. Used my aggro to enemies first.
But, RDM always get aggro so faster. Enemies start ignored me....

That's entirely on the RDM for opening too early or just not using diversion/lucid dreaming.

Nothing wrong with RDM's aggro- their burst is just really, really high. If RDM steal aggro from you, ask them to pick up diversion or use lucid dream early. With all cooldowns up, RDM bursts around 6k worth of enmity on a single enemy. AoE shouldn't be running into issues. If they're still stealing after pull, like on a boss, consider doing another rotation of enmity gaining skills before dropping into DPS.

Maybe if the tanks were in tank stance and not dps stance it wouldn't be an issue. I find too many tanks forget why they're there. I'm not saying using diversion is bad but it often happens with a tank is in dps stance.

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Originally Posted by Lumina

You've had shitty RDMs that don't know how to use Diversion then. The sad reality is that many DPS players find validation in being able to rip the enemy off their tank, as they think it somehow validates their ability to do their job well. Just another consequence of not having a parser or any kind.

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Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.
But if the tank can't hold the trash/boss even after that, they are either bad or too stuck up in being in dps stance.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Maybe if the tanks were in tank stance and not dps stance it wouldn't be an issue. I find too many tanks forget why they're there. I'm not saying using diversion is bad but it often happens with a tank is in dps stance.

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If there's an item level disparity where the RDM has a higher ilvl than the tank, this can happen regardless if the tank is in tank stance or not. Also most tanks with any amount of sense start off pulls in tank stance.

Also OP, on bosses, start off with a DA + PS and you should never lose aggro on bosses, and on trash pulls try to get out a DA + Abyssal Drain as quickly as possible.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.
But if the tank can't hold the trash/boss even after that, they are either bad or too stuck up in being in dps stance.

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I had one the other day pull the boss in DPS stance in Kugane Castle and i ended up having to run before he finally managed to get aggro back. This obsession with stance dancing gets to be a bit much when they can't hold aggro and then want to blame the dps for not performing correctly.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.
But if the tank can't hold the trash/boss even after that, they are either bad or too stuck up in being in dps stance.

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If you're doing normal dungeons i wouldn't say it's a wasted job action, It'll prevent you a lot of headache. Even if the tank is bad, if you can adjust and have a smooth run that is awesome.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I had one the other day pull the boss in DPS stance in Kugane Castle and i ended up having to run before he finally managed to get aggro back. This obsession with stance dancing gets to be a bit much when they can't hold aggro and then want to blame the dps for not performing correctly.

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Did you use diversion?

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.
But if the tank can't hold the trash/boss even after that, they are either bad or too stuck up in being in dps stance.

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Nothing a tank can do will net them nearly as much enmity as a bursting RDM; maybe if the enmity is being diverted by a NIN using smokescreen, but that's still not anything the tank can do on its own. For dungeon runs, not much else is such a 'make-or-break' difference in role skill choice. Raiding, yes, but not normal dungeons. Might as well pick up diversion and avoid needless destruction to team play.

I static with a RDM as a drk, it is a git gud issue. Sure I would lose hate sometimes in AoE situations but any high burst on single target DPS that needs to before going to AoE can do that. It is also a bit of an issue if they are releasing FULL burst on single target too soon, and having Lucid Dreaming can help with that. (and provoke) It would also help if instant = instant, it takes too long for monster start hitting you again after inputting provoke because the game takes too long to process animation.

For single target used your emitiy combo twice, then hard slash > drop grit > blood weapon syphon strike > dark arts soul eater. Then weave in DA/soul eater as you do the DPS combo again and different defense CDs at different points, put grit back up if you find your self taking too much damage.

Personally I found aoe hate harder on pld, but then again I find flash botting boring. (I am not sure how much I am supposed to be using flash since it is a DPS loss,total eclipse doesn't have an emitiy bonus.)

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Nothing a tank can do will net them nearly as much enmity as a bursting RDM; maybe if the enmity is being diverted by a NIN using smokescreen, but that's still not anything the tank can do on its own. For dungeon runs, not much else is such a 'make-or-break' difference in role skill choice. Raiding, yes, but not normal dungeons. Might as well pick up diversion and avoid needless destruction to team play.

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Yeah you do not need much, Diversion, swiftcast, lucid, manashift, and maybe addle ( though I do not know if damage formulas in this game works like that, some games lowering INT on the target means you can deal more damage to them) Not like you are going to use break, surecast, drain anyway...

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Nothing wrong with RDM's aggro- their burst is just really, really high. If RDM steal aggro from you, ask them to pick up diversion or use lucid dream early.

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RDM has to open with Diversion if they don't want to pull off the tank, I have had it many times where I end up taking aggro and dying during raid because I didn't open with Diversion. There's only an issue if after using Diversion you are still pulling off the tank, which usually ends up being on the tank, and not the RDM.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.

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Wasted opposed to what? Surecast? Drain?

As a DRK main, no idea what you're doing wrong in keeping aggro off RDMs.

If you're losing hate to a pack of mobs, Unleash initiation + Abyssal Drain spamming works. Single target wise, a DA'd Power Slash Combo or two is sufficient after an Unmend + Unleash opener.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Wasted opposed to what? Surecast? Drain?

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Apocatastasis.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

(I am not sure how much I am supposed to be using flash since it is a DPS loss,total eclipse doesn't have an emitiy bonus.)

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In a dungeon? Use flash until you are comfortably holding hate. If you lose hate and your caster gets hit and their spell casting interrupted, that's a bigger dps loss than your total eclipse could make up for (and on top of that you'd have to spend extra GCDs working to reestablish hate anyway, even if it's not a caster who gets attacked). If you lose hate and your healer gets eaten and your party wipes... well, thats an even bigger dps loss, to put it in those terms.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Apocatastasis.

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I rarely use that outside of Savage content, because most damage in dungeons is physical. Diversion is technically a DPS gain as well, as it allows the MT to drop tank stance and increase his damage.

I had a RDM constantly aggroing enemies in Castrum Abania. I don't think it was my fault, though I felt pretty bad about it. They were level 70 while I was 69, and I would use Shield Lob on one enemy (while waiting for GCD to use flash) and they'd inevitably pull aggro from one enemy during each start of the pull. I had no problems maintaining aggro once I got it back. I think they were attacking mobs I hadn't shield lobbed sometimes... But sometimes I think they just burst the enemy too fast. Ended up really disliking tanking that place (I don't tank much to begin with).

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Apocatastasis.

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Apocatastasis is even more situational than diversion though. Unless the boss got a nasty magic tank buster it's pretty much superfluous.
And on the other hand the RDM opening happen everytime. Lucid Dream reduce your current enmity, so if you're using it during your opener not only it might happen after you pulled the aggro and your target already start moving but you also will restart building aggro right after you used it and might waste some of the regen if you didn't use enough MP.

I can't have Diversion every pull guys...

Sure some of the time, but it's impossible for me to have it every pull. And when I do one scatter and the tank can't get hate off of me from the ONE scatter, I don't think Diversion would have made a difference anyways.

As DRK you don't have much excuse. When it comes to groups you should be spamming Abyssal Drain anyways. When it comes to single targets that should be an even more sure thing. It's understandable that you can sometimes make mistakes, and when an enemy or two moves away from the group, it can be difficult to manage the aggro at that point, but that's merely a situation that stemmed from a mistake to begin with.

I want to add this to the DRK tanking: there is no shame in spamming your abyssal drain combo in thrash pulls and single target enmity combo until you feel satisfied with the hold on the hate. Especially with high burst jobs like RDM. Don't worry about fancy dpsing if it could mean a group wipe via loss of hate.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I rarely use that outside of Savage content, because most damage in dungeons is physical. Diversion is technically a DPS gain as well, as it allows the MT to drop tank stance and increase his damage.

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The bosses in Sirensong sea and Ala Mhigo do a lot of magic damage, most of the trash mobs until the second boss in Bardam's Mettle have magical attacks too, so it makes sense for me to keep Apo instead of Diversion when mass pulls are going on.
And the issue with ripping aggro can be easily remedied by just being patient for a second or two, and not go fully out the moment Shield Lob is used (but didn't hit the boss yet).

As RDM I really didn't need to have Diversion on my hotbar (and I'm also a raider, so Apocastasis and Surecast do take up a slot in my role actions, usually one or the other). When I had problems with tank aggro was because my boyfriend was pulling 1 or half a second after the countdown, while my Verthunder landed right on 0, so I got 2 spells off before he could even shield lob. I have diversion occasionally but don't really need it since the tanks are holding aggro just fine (and never need it mid-pull since that's what Lucid Dreaming is for), it mostly seems to be a problem of RDMs pulling slightly before you do.

I have yet to lose threat to a RDM in dungeons, even when they go full burst. Maybe you just need to work on your own opener? Sounds more like a personal problem, rather than a RDM problem, IMO

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

I want to add this to the DRK tanking: there is no shame in spamming your abyssal drain combo in thrash pulls and single target enmity combo until you feel satisfied with the hold on the hate. Especially with high burst jobs like RDM. Don't worry about fancy dpsing if it could mean a group wipe via loss of hate.

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If your not spamming AD on trash pulls as a DRK then your not doing it right

As dps if tank have aggro problems I use lucid dreaming every other pull and diversion every other pull. If I play tank and have aggro problems(that usually mean i am heavily undergeared compared dps) I stick in tank stance and use aggro combo. Never had any problem with aggro sounds more like players problem they not utilize their abilities.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.
But if the tank can't hold the trash/boss even after that, they are either bad or too stuck up in being in dps stance.

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Diversion and Lucid Dreaming are very different. Diversion reduces the amount of threat your skills generate, while Lucid Dreaming halves your current amount of threat. One is proactive and used BEFORE you pull aggro so you give the tank time to lock threat on mobs. The other is reactive and used AFTER you've already pulled aggro. Lucid Dreaming is your "I screwed up" button as far as threat is concerned IMO.

Personally I take BOTH skills. Diversion is my opener in any situation where I feel its likely I'll pull aggro and make it difficult for the tank to round things up and lock them down. Lucid Dreaming is something I shouldn't have to use unless I need mp but if aggro does get dicey, I have it to drop my threat in an instant. I feel that if I didn't have Diversion and simply relied on Lucid, I'd be slowing down the group overall because mobs would be breaking off from the tank, messing up positionals for the melee, forcing the tank to wrangle them back and overall just hurting the group's efficiency. Prior to the role skill revamp, caster dps had Diversion as their only threat management tool and I feel its the primary tool caster dps are intended to use for threat management, while Lucid is meant more for mp management and a bonus threat dump for emergencies.

Diversion is far from a wasted job action and it's certainly better than most other skills you could take in its place, especially if you're actually having threat issues. If you're having aggro problems but don't take you aggro management tool because you think its "a wasted job action" then the problem is you. Now that's not to say that some tanks aren't bad at their jobs or spending too much time in dps stance, but if you're consistently having threat issues no matter the tank, the issue is probably not the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

If you're having aggro problems but don't take you aggro management tool because you think its "a wasted job action" then the problem is you. Now that's not to say that some tanks aren't bad at their jobs or spending too much time in dps stance, but if you're consistently having threat issues no matter the tank, the issue is probably not the tanks.

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I do not have any problem with bursts or ripping aggro at all as a DPS - Because I can read the situation about and around the tank and react accordingly instead of going full yolo. Diversion itself is an okay job role, especially for physical DPS, yet for Red Mage it's something I avoid getting, as LD works for me just as good.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

I have yet to lose threat to a RDM in dungeons, even when they go full burst. Maybe you just need to work on your own opener? Sounds more like a personal problem, rather than a RDM problem, IMO

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i've only leveled PLD to 70 so far, but it's definitely a RDM problem. i only had to adjust my opener on dungeon bosses for good RDMs and nobody else.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

The bosses in Sirensong sea and Ala Mhigo do a lot of magic damage, most of the trash mobs until the second boss in Bardam's Mettle have magical attacks too, so it makes sense for me to keep Apo instead of Diversion when mass pulls are going on.

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tanks and healers never count on that since they can easily be paired with DPS that don't have it, the flow of a dungeon would be a lot more consistent for random parties if you use Diversion instead.

No trouble with any RDM even as PLD. I do 1 aggro combo and switch to sword, I do that even with RDM who have 345 weap full stuff. (like the one in my raid group who have try once to get aggro haha)

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

...pull the boss in DPS stance...This obsession with stance dancing...

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It's not an obsession with stance dancing. Stance dancing means a tank knows when to be in what stance, meaning the tank will always open an encounter in tank stance. A tank that opens with DPS stance while the encounter clearly requires a tank, has an obsession with dps not with stance dancing. In other words, the player fails as a tank.

Although lately there's a trend on the forums here and elsewhere that the party needs to "work together" (see the thread about regen) so the mobs are handed on a plate to the tank and the tank can just waltz in and do whatever he likes. "Working together" means everyone put in the utmost effort, which includes the tank. But I guess those tanks today are too pampered to do even the most basic of tanking duties.

If a tank starts in tanking stance, tries to establish proper enmity lead before going into DPS stance, then we can talk about "working together".

That said, when I'm on my RDM I never open the moment the tank pulls. As much as tanks have a DPS obessions, there's also this "opener" obsession among DPS jobs. Unless it's Savage/Trial content, there's no point disrupting a pull with powerful openers, especially on a RDM.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I can't have Diversion every pull guys...

Sure some of the time, but it's impossible for me to have it every pull. And when I do one scatter and the tank can't get hate off of me from the ONE scatter, I don't think Diversion would have made a difference anyways.

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AoE pulls shouldn't be an issue, unless you're sitting at 90/90 on a fresh pull and triple enchanted moulinet. 120s is more than enough for bosses, though and RDMs that correctly AoE DPS as well as staggers lucid dream (also 120s seconds). Scatter shouldn't generate more enmity than anything a tank does unless they are simply not AoE pulling. Then it's on them, probably. Me going full ham, I've always ripped hate and I don't like dying much; 25% main stat reduction has made me want to be safer, even if it promotes someone else being able to play poorly. Even when tanks stance dance and I find myself on a very thin line of a flashing orange enmity meter has made me keep diversion on cooldown as well as lucid. I'd rather not die for something I know I can ultimately control.

We're also probably, at large, not even accounting for gear disparity. For an overwhelming amount of dungeon runs I've done, very few tanks have had raid gear. Most tanks have had gear that is either current to that time (right now, that would be creator), nothing upgraded or from savage, or have gear that is from previous dungeons. Suddenly makes sense why someone like me wouldn't risk removal of diversion for roulette-only tanks. At the same token, it'd make sense that players that actually main tanks probably have no issue holding hate against RDMs.

Personally, I slot diversion, lucid dreaming, swiftcast and addle permanently, while floating my last slot according to the primal or raid; apoca for 1s-3s and surecast for 4s. For progress 3s, I actually kept erase for removing the fire tick and preventing deaths. Until people stopped getting hit by spellblade.

I mostly run expert dungeons as a -currently- i310 Dark Knight, so this post will detail my experience with it.

Trash pulls and boss alike, it's rare for a Red Mage to pull aggro off me. I have no shame in using multiple Abyssal Drains to keep trash on me.

Boss fights, leading in Tank Stance and firing off Unmend + Plunge (if available) then enmnity rotation, a well geared Red Mage can grab hate for about 2 seconds before I get a spinning slash off (2nd skill in enmity rotation) but that's nothing a quick Voke can't fix, because spinning slash is next in my rotation. Once I get that spinning slash off, I'm good for the rest of the fight.

All in all, it's never been an issue for me.

diversion is pretty much mandatory for rdm, especially for one with a proper opener. use it.

If a RDM is pulling things off a tank in an AoE situation, the tank is not AoEing enough. Scatter is 130 potency per target and Enchanted Moulinet is 260 per target. Each tank's basic AoE is (adjusting for attack power differences) about 700-900 potency per target, before bonus enmity from tank stance is even taken into account.

I've never really had problems holding hate off RDM on my PLD. You just need to press Flash an extra time or two if they're bursting super hard on AoE (and if they're not, then doing the standard spamming of Total Eclipse should keep hate from them anyway), or just be ready to press Provoke if they're doing it on bosses, then slap it with an emnity combo and carry on.

Not taking sides but there has been an increase of tanks pulling bosses/trash mobs in DPS stance especially in Deltascape normal (bosses). It is correct to say that DPS should be using DPS ENMITY SKILLS (USE THEM EVEN IF YOU HATE THEM *LOOKING AT YOU MELEE/BLM/RDM ^_^). However, too many times it is the case of tanks simply wanting to sit in DPS stance and forget that securing aggro should be their primary concern. I have died more times as a healer (using only healing abilities) and DPS using LD/diversion because of this. Not saying tanks are only to blame, but as a tank (and an infrequent tank player), one must never forget that you are the parties meat shield. Go into DPS stance when you have a far lead on aggro. Again, DPS should be using the DPS ENMITY SKILLS (USE THEM EVEN IF YOU HATE THEM). Saves everyone a headache.

As a RDM main I can safely say that it is entirely possible to run any content in the game without pulling aggro from your tank as long as you're smart about when you pop things like Diversion and Lucid Dreaming. If you're going for the hardcast VerAero/Thunder opener then throwing out Diversion during the countdown (at about 7 seconds) means that you give the tank plenty of time to establish enmity on the boss and then continue into your rotation.

At that point I only ever need to pop Lucid at about 50% MP to keep my enmity down whilst also providing sufficient MP to Mana Shift to healers as and when necessary.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

I do not have any problem with bursts or ripping aggro at all as a DPS - Because I can read the situation about and around the tank and react accordingly instead of going full yolo. Diversion itself is an okay job role, especially for physical DPS, yet for Red Mage it's something I avoid getting, as LD works for me just as good.

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I like having Diversion and Lucid Dreaming, even in raiding situations. In V3S, for instance, when I pop diversion in my precast, I can unload hard and fast at the word "go"; diversion will be up again in time for White Flame, which is another instance where hitting it hard and fast is a boon for the whole group. Killing it before mindjack means a good chunk of extra dps time on Hali before that goes off. Diversion is unfortunately not up for the dragon so I have to wait a bit before bursting there, but it's up again by Apanda where a strong burst is also nice to have.

My only real contention is where you call it a "wasted slot" because I've found a good deal of use for it.

I had to mention this to my SO...He got to rdm to 70 and was telling me how he kept pulling aggro from all these "bad" tanks. So I asked him, are you using Diversion? And hes like whats that?

/forehead slap.

At least he was using lucid dreaming but diversion is very important.
He now doesn't pull agro on bosses.
Like he shouldn't have been doing ages ago. lol