From all thread that asking content (hardcore vs casual) : sum up objectiveto SE

From so many threads that have been repetitive and never get anywhere due to argument.
I would like to sum up the objective of each group:

Hardcore demand : a challenge content, that is actually hard. Something that feel like achievement because not everyone can complete.

Casual demand : a challenge content that require low time consuming to clear. They believe to have player skills from all kinds of other games they used to play and don't mind a hard content, as long as it doesn't take too much time to complete.

SE demand : a content that is time sink for player to continue playing.

Let's make this good for everybody :

What about a challenge content that is not require so much time to complete, but very hard that not everybody could beat to let hardcore actually feel like achievement? SE could get time sink goal via "practice" or "tries to win" instead of time sink from "days of repetitive to get drop" "days of waiting to get NM pop". This will make everyone happy.

The closest challenge I could have think of, from SE previous work, is secret boss battle in Kingdom heart (2-F-mix). It is a kind of epic battle that require player skill more than gear, and the actual battle doesn't take too long time, if you don't get time sink result from losing and retrying.

However, even if it is that hard, it won't be enough in MMO, eventually everybody will beat it soon with a few tries. To make it actually work in MMO, you have to add "teamwork" aspect into it so that if someone fail a little off, then the team actually wipe. (Ifrit allow too many fail, thus too easy) Considering this require perfect run that everybody must perform together would make this actually worthy achievement. The chance to perform perfect run together by 8 people will be obviously low, this allow time sink that SE need. And of course, for casual, they can win if they have skill, and never win if they just simply bad.


Note: I agree that due to server respond time, the hard that come from dodging won't be a good measurement here. SE need to come up with some other way to make up for this, while leave the dodging fest content to 2.0 when server is fast respond.

Nothing in a mmo is challenging once the strategy is down.

Ifrit and Darkhold where both absurdly hard until people figured them out, in a mmo the only thing that is not easy to figure out is PvP because of the person playing it. Programed mechanics follow a pattern once it is figure out it is easily beaten.


The hard content that is short is ok but they need a ton of it enough of it at least 5 fold what is in game now released every 2 weeks max (due to development this is not realistic either). Hardcore/Casual is a time based so if the fight is unbelievably hard but last 15mins.... well there better be enough of that stuff for me to be able to play 40+hrs a week as a hardcore and not get bored of content. That is where the hardcores are now. We want hard content and we want enough that we do not have to do the same crap every night of the week.

Making hard-quick content I feel will not work, that is casual content (hard casual content but casual content non the less). It has nothing for the hardcores because it will still be short lived once mastered. Add content that is tiered, look at Voidwatch nms/znms/and such from XI. Make a full set of NMs take 10hrs to go all the way through, make multiple paths, make it only be claimed to the group who spawns to prevent greifing bots. Make the content be valid for at the min a years worth of time.

Hardcore and Casual are not a measure of difficulty. Not being able to beat hardstuff does not make you casual it makes you a bad player. Casual can play a limited time, hardcore can play this like a 2nd job.

There is no content that will work for both groups. Casual do not want to work for months to get gear, and hardcore do not want to complete the content in 1-2 weeks time. There is simply nothing that will work. Hardcores getting content first is the problem we have with this game and other mmos that are casual focused to begin with. We do not want to get everything fast due to our playtime.

To make everyone happy, the devs must make both types of content ignoring the other side. casual content needs to be made without hardcore in mind (so casual trully have something they like), and the game must have hardcore in mind where the casual simply can/will not enjoy it (so hardcores trully have something they can do and not get bored of).

Making everyone happy is why no one likes the game atm.........

I believe there's nothing really to sort out. The producer plans to make FFXIV both casual and hardcore friendly.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Online games have a hierarchy to them, or at least that’s what I like to call it. It’s often described using a pyramid, the width of the pyramid being representative of the number of players. At the peak are the hard-cores—the minority of players who completely immerse themselves in the game, playing day and night and often forgetting their biological imperatives. As you work your way down the pyramid, players become increasingly casual. It bears mentioning that this model illustrates the quantity of players only, not quality.

In the first generation of MMORPGs, the pyramids were skinny and tall. In the current generation, while I think the peak should still stay way up there, the slopes projecting down from it should be less extreme. What I want to make is a theme park where both casuals and hard-cores can exist and play together. That’s the minimum requirement I think a modern MMORPG should fulfill.

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In a quick responsive battle, strategy does not matter, it come down to how quick players respond and dodging/counter attack. It seem to be the only type I could think of now for an A.I. to be challenge to players no matter bluegart release strategy or not.

Yes, I knew that until server respond quicker. (2.0) they could not do that kind of quick battle. So it is up to SE on how would they design type of content that is:
-challenge
-short time to win
-hard to learn.
-rely more skill, less strategy. (because youtube always ruin strategy part quickly)

To make best MMO that favor casual and hardcore,
They need brainstorming.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Making everyone happy is why no one likes the game atm.........

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This is the truth i've been rubbing at dev team face for like 3+ months...No game can please everyone...so they should focus on the way they chose...if they want to make a FFXI clone meant to offer korean e-peen to hardcore and poo overtime to casuals, so be it.

Until they accept it and focus on what they decided to do this game will keep failing. If they want a HC game then they should make a HC game. They could make a game where Vrtra, Absolute Virtue, Pandemonium Warden and other FFXI HC idols were child play. Make stuff so hard they can keep track of how many of that items are availble per server like they did with Relic weapons...but stop trying to please everyone.

This is also why i tell them the best thing that can happen to current FFXIV is the revival of the original FFXIV...this would allow the dev team to focus on 2.0 as a pure HC game and leave the casuals looking nice and doing easy(ish...just look at great buffalo...it never was really an easy content until party size was chopped down to 8), entertaining and fun stuff at original FFXIV.

"to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's"...or maybe "to HC what is HC's and to casual what is casual's"

they can make a game that please everyone and the solution is different server !!!!!!!!

casual : exp rate x100, drop rate x1k, boss stats - 5k

moderate: exp rate: normal, drop rate: normal, boss stats: same as SE planning to make


and guess which server the "casual" end up playing

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

they can make a game that please everyone and the solution is different server !!!!!!!!

casual : exp rate x100, drop rate x1k, boss stats - 5k

moderate: exp rate: normal, drop rate: normal, boss stats: same as SE planning to make


and guess which server the "casual" end up playing

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This is not a free Korean MMO.

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Originally Posted by Alise

-challenge
-short time to win
-hard to learn.
-rely more skill, less strategy. (because youtube always ruin strategy part quickly)

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= please everyone. or at least majority demand.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

This is the truth i've been rubbing at dev team face for like 3+ months...No game can please everyone...

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

the solution is different server !!!!!!!!

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Please refrain from making such definitive statements. As pointed Amyrae, Yoshi-P already said there will be content for "both" type of players. You CAN have content that pleases everyone, just look at that MMO with 14M subscribers. And you CAN NOT have servers to seggregate people. That being said, as I pointed in another thread, difficult content is really what defines a game.

Hardcore dost not mean time sink.
There is no opposition between "casual" and "hardcore".

I think the best comment here so far is :

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Originally Posted by Alise

They need brainstorming.

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They need manpower, several teams of developpers, time to think, create and test content. Ask the point of view of players about this or that idea. Post official polls on what content they want to be introduced next. Use their community which is the most precious treasure they have. Do not nerf content too fast.

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Originally Posted by Alise

From so many threads that have been repetitive and never get anywhere due to argument.
I would like to sum up the objective of each group:

Hardcore demand : a challenge content, that is actually hard. Something that feel like achievement because not everyone can complete.

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This is hilarious, seeing as most of the so-called "hardcores" don't really want a challenge, they want time sinks and convolution.

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Originally Posted by Alise

To make it actually work in MMO, you have to add "teamwork" aspect into it so that if someone fail a little off, then the team actually wipe. (Ifrit allow too many fail, thus too easy) Considering this require perfect run that everybody must perform together would make this actually worthy achievement. The chance to perform perfect run together by 8 people will be obviously low, this allow time sink that SE need. And of course, for casual, they can win if they have skill, and never win if they just simply bad.

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This is, unfortunately, not what Casuals want. A situation that requires a perfect run must require a perfect team (otherwise you can take a perfect team and do a less than perfect run due to your better setup). Casuals do not want to be 'forced' to level other classes; take for example the LNC/Sentinel outcry.

If you make something require a perfect run from a perfect setup, you will make hardcore happy, but not casuals. If you make something that requires a perfect run from a less than perfect setup you will make casuals happy, but not harcore ('lesser' mortals getting their epic lewtz).

I think this is mainly an issue with player expectations; there should be a tier of gear that people who identify themselves as casuals should not expect to get.

I think Dynamis was a perfect example of a good balance between hardcore and casual players. If you were casual, you attended for 3 hours/week (admittedly all in one sitting) and had a chance at semi-epic gear. If you were hardcore you attended for currency and gradually built your way up to a Dynamis weapon, an epic weapon of such epicness that showed you were truly hardcore (or fishbotted/RMT'd enough gil to obtain them).

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Originally Posted by Silma

Please refrain from making such definitive statements. As pointed Amyrae, Yoshi-P already said there will be content for "both" type of players. You CAN have content that pleases everyone, just look at that MMO with 14M subscribers.

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No, man...a game cannot please everyone. Not a single game can. Every person has its own preferences so, unless you make a game with universal options where every person can set it the way they want, you won't please everyone.

An example is FFXI. It's a hell of a game...surely of of the top 5 FFs ever made...still, not everyone like it. FFVII? Awesome, but some don't like it either...Rock Band? Mario Kart? Cooking Mama? Resident Evil? The answer is always the same...no game can please everyone. The day someone discover a game who pleases everyone, he will take over the market.

And here we get to the point Xtash said...this proposal of "trying" to please everyone is actually what is f'ing up FFXIV...not because he's putting content oriented to certain player groups, but because he's splitting the effort between them. If you look at FFXI you will see that it is oriented to HC and party play...and this is why it was successful. They knew who they wanted to please so it was much easier to do it.

Here we have a proverb..."Those who try to please everyone pleases no one."...i'm not sure if there is an english version of it, but this says it all about what Yoshida is trying to do.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Silma

And you CAN NOT have servers to seggregate people.

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Forgot to say...i agree completely with you about this. I support the global server concept, which means the very same servers to everyone. I'm against any kind of server seggregation, no matter if based on region, language or PvE/PvP or any other kind of preferences.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Here we have a proverb..."Those who try to please everyone pleases no one."...i'm not sure if there is an english version of it, but this says it all about what Yoshida is trying to do.

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It doesn't apply here.

If you insist on an MMO that's so difficult that casual players will not play it, then the MMO won't make enough money to stay afloat. So, the consequence of not pleasing casual players, people keep the game alive through their vast numbers and treasure, is that hardcore players lose their game because there's not enough of them to support it through subscriptions.

Besides, there are plenty of examples out there where casual and hardcore content live side-by-side. That's just the reality of the situation.

That "was" the reality...when people had no option. However, now the market is plenty of options...if they don't like here they just go to another game...

Assuming people will stay in a game they don't like is, at least, naive...also, just because someone play a game doesn't mean they actually like it...i myself played FFXI over 7 years and now i realize i never really liked it...i just had no better option since i am a console player.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

That "was" the reality...when people had no option. However, now the market is plenty of options...if they don't like here they just go to another game...

Assuming people will stay in a game they don't like is, at least, naive...also, just because someone play a game doesn't mean they actually like it...i myself played FFXI over 7 years and now i realize i never really liked it...i just had no better option since i am a console player.

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Put it another way. All the hardcore players could leave, and the game would still do well financially if casual players were enjoying themselves. You're overplaying your hand if you think that by threatening to leave, you're going to completely change the development philosophy behind this game. Yoshida wants hardcore players. But he wants casual players as well. Lots of them.

It's as simple as this: If you really can't abide any casual aspects to this game, then obviously this game is not for you.

As an "hardcore" player myself, i'll try to give a good idea of what i call difficulty.

Difficulty means teamwork.

• Have fights that requires several class types, not only BLM or only LNC+BLM
• The fight must provide each class with a way to be usefull. For example, a boss would be temporarily insensitive to offensive spells while at the same time taking extra damage from PUG Weapon Skills, etc.
• Have fights that requires actions from only a certain kind of Disciples, for example at a certain moment only disciples of Magic can activate that switch on the wall to create a shield that absorb damage, or at a certain moment only Disciples of War can walk on a plate on the floor that opens a door, etc.

Difficulty means preparation:

• Have Bosses randomly casting a certain magic. For example, a boss can cast Water or Lightning spells and this is determined by its color when you enter the arena. That means people need to have 2 sets of equipment in their inventory to protect themselves from each magic.
• Have bosses sucking MP or TP, so you need to bring in potions.
• Since bosses will use WS, have counter -WS, so people need to have that particular WS in their action bar to not take damage.

Difficulty means rewards:

• random loots from a loot table is so out-of-date and old-fashioned, please stop with it.
• Have people choose which item they want if they succeed, but then only ONE item will be given.
• Provide players with a way to be proud of their accomplishement other than equipment, should it be a Title "Slayer of Ifrit", a pet like in WoW, a pure cosmetic equipement (a helmet that looks like the Head of Ifrit), or even the possibility to transform your character into Ifrit itself why not ?
• As for more "casual" players, or less equiped or less skilled maybe, provide them with the possibility to get the same items but at a much slower pace. For example, everytime you fight boss X but loose, you gain 1 point. One item costs 50 points, etc.

This is just 0.1% of what is possible to do, and it all depends on their game engine and easyness of scripting things. We will have a better idea of what the devs are capable to do with the engine in the next few months i guess.

OP seems to make this assumtion that everyone can be stereotyped into one of two catagories in each of there "demand" catagories. Not to mention asumes to tell us what we believe. Then goes on to assume to tell us, what will make this good for everybody.

Interesting how someone can assume to tell use what we want from a few threads. What we believe, and what wil be good for us, as individual players.

Alot of assumptions in this thread as a whole.

I really despise how posters try to do this, and pretend to represent the community, or various groups, or perspectives, or act as if they have the slightest idea what anyone and everyone wants because they think they read a few threads.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Put it another way. All the hardcore players could leave, and the game would still do well financially if casual players were enjoying themselves. You're overplaying your hand if you think that by threatening to leave, you're going to completely change the development philosophy behind this game. Yoshida wants hardcore players. But he wants casual players as well. Lots of them.

It's as simple as this: If you really can't abide any casual aspects to this game, then obviously this game is not for you.

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Well...you have no idea what i'm talking about, right? ^^:

So let's just leave it simple (hopefully simple enough): You can give a gift voucher as gift to anyone (this is Yoshida's proposal) but it rarely will please who received it...or you can buy a gift specific to that person...when you are specific the chance of you pleasing your target is much bigger...but if you give the gift to another person, it can potentially not please that second person...because it was chosen specifically to the first person.

So what i'm saying is that i support the idea of, instead giving a voucher that will rarely please the person, buy some specific gift targeting different people...and then let the person pick the one that pleases him the most. While the second way is more expensive, the success rate is way bigger than just giving a gift voucher because it was specific to that person...if the person picked that one is because he feels that that gift is the one who fits him best.

This is what i was talking about...focusing on target population instead of making generic content. I never said a thing about having exclusively HC or casual content in a game...i always has been talking about the where the dev team focus should be.

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

This is hilarious, seeing as most of the so-called "hardcores" don't really want a challenge, they want time sinks and convolution.

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Says who?

You can have both types of content. Bring it on. If you don't like the type of content, don't do it.

I bet all the casuals will STILL want to do it because in the end, everybody wants to try those super challenges.

Oh, look. This thread. Again.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Says who?

You can have both types of content. Bring it on. If you don't like the type of content, don't do it.

I bet all the casuals will STILL want to do it because in the end, everybody wants to try those super challenges.

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The point he made is that, to make a very stupid but good enough example, fishing for 1.000 hours is not a challenge at all, but is pretty "hardcore". And yes, every once in a while there are people proposing the kind of content that is just that: pure time sinks where the only "challenge" is having the kind of play time needed to complete it.

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Originally Posted by Silma

awesome stuff

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This is a much better example of things that could be done, imo.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Oh, look. This thread. Again.



The point he made is that, to make a very stupid but good enough example, fishing for 1.000 hours is not a challenge at all, but is pretty "hardcore". And yes, every once in a while there are people proposing the kind of content that is just that: pure time sinks where the only "challenge" is having the kind of play time needed to complete it.

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Intensive time sinks should always be around in an MMORPG. It keeps people subscribed and it keeps them busy.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Intensive time sinks should always be around in an MMORPG. It keeps people subscribed and it keeps them busy.

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Sure, but there are timesinks and timesinks. Trying to get a 7 materia forbidden meld is a major timesink that, imo, is also good as most of the effort related to it comes from activites as varied as partying up on strongholds, leveling crafts and gatherers, hoarding gil, etc. It comes naturally as you play the game.

Now, forcing players to do the same boring task (or a small group of tasks) over and over and over for a long time is the kind of crap that, while common in MMOs, are nothing more than a major pain the ass and whoever introduced those to the genre deserves to be killed. Twice.

That sounds like most MMO's to me man. Running the same instance every day or kill Ifrit everyday, that is the same thing as grinding for exp. You're still performing these repetitive actions.
People will try to defend their asinine thoughts and completely neglect these facts. They just want their amazing gear to come sooner than later so they could move on to the next MMO. Fickle bastards.