From all thread that asking content (hardcore vs casual) : sum up objectiveto SE

[Alise]

From so many threads that have been repetitive and never get anywhere due to argument.
I would like to sum up the objective of each group:

Hardcore demand : a challenge content, that is actually hard. Something that feel like achievement because not everyone can complete.

Casual demand : a challenge content that require low time consuming to clear. They believe to have player skills from all kinds of other games they used to play and don't mind a hard content, as long as it doesn't take too much time to complete.

SE demand : a content that is time sink for player to continue playing.

Let's make this good for everybody :

What about a challenge content that is not require so much time to complete, but very hard that not everybody could beat to let hardcore actually feel like achievement? SE could get time sink goal via "practice" or "tries to win" instead of time sink from "days of repetitive to get drop" "days of waiting to get NM pop". This will make everyone happy.

The closest challenge I could have think of, from SE previous work, is secret boss battle in Kingdom heart (2-F-mix). It is a kind of epic battle that require player skill more than gear, and the actual battle doesn't take too long time, if you don't get time sink result from losing and retrying.

However, even if it is that hard, it won't be enough in MMO, eventually everybody will beat it soon with a few tries. To make it actually work in MMO, you have to add "teamwork" aspect into it so that if someone fail a little off, then the team actually wipe. (Ifrit allow too many fail, thus too easy) Considering this require perfect run that everybody must perform together would make this actually worthy achievement. The chance to perform perfect run together by 8 people will be obviously low, this allow time sink that SE need. And of course, for casual, they can win if they have skill, and never win if they just simply bad.


Note: I agree that due to server respond time, the hard that come from dodging won't be a good measurement here. SE need to come up with some other way to make up for this, while leave the dodging fest content to 2.0 when server is fast respond.

[Xatsh]

Nothing in a mmo is challenging once the strategy is down.

Ifrit and Darkhold where both absurdly hard until people figured them out, in a mmo the only thing that is not easy to figure out is PvP because of the person playing it. Programed mechanics follow a pattern once it is figure out it is easily beaten.


The hard content that is short is ok but they need a ton of it enough of it at least 5 fold what is in game now released every 2 weeks max (due to development this is not realistic either). Hardcore/Casual is a time based so if the fight is unbelievably hard but last 15mins.... well there better be enough of that stuff for me to be able to play 40+hrs a week as a hardcore and not get bored of content. That is where the hardcores are now. We want hard content and we want enough that we do not have to do the same crap every night of the week.

Making hard-quick content I feel will not work, that is casual content (hard casual content but casual content non the less). It has nothing for the hardcores because it will still be short lived once mastered. Add content that is tiered, look at Voidwatch nms/znms/and such from XI. Make a full set of NMs take 10hrs to go all the way through, make multiple paths, make it only be claimed to the group who spawns to prevent greifing bots. Make the content be valid for at the min a years worth of time.

Hardcore and Casual are not a measure of difficulty. Not being able to beat hardstuff does not make you casual it makes you a bad player. Casual can play a limited time, hardcore can play this like a 2nd job.

There is no content that will work for both groups. Casual do not want to work for months to get gear, and hardcore do not want to complete the content in 1-2 weeks time. There is simply nothing that will work. Hardcores getting content first is the problem we have with this game and other mmos that are casual focused to begin with. We do not want to get everything fast due to our playtime.

To make everyone happy, the devs must make both types of content ignoring the other side. casual content needs to be made without hardcore in mind (so casual trully have something they like), and the game must have hardcore in mind where the casual simply can/will not enjoy it (so hardcores trully have something they can do and not get bored of).

Making everyone happy is why no one likes the game atm.........

[AmyRae]

I believe there's nothing really to sort out. The producer plans to make FFXIV both casual and hardcore friendly.

Online games have a hierarchy to them, or at least that’s what I like to call it. It’s often described using a pyramid, the width of the pyramid being representative of the number of players. At the peak are the hard-cores—the minority of players who completely immerse themselves in the game, playing day and night and often forgetting their biological imperatives. As you work your way down the pyramid, players become increasingly casual. It bears mentioning that this model illustrates the quantity of players only, not quality.

In the first generation of MMORPGs, the pyramids were skinny and tall. In the current generation, while I think the peak should still stay way up there, the slopes projecting down from it should be less extreme. What I want to make is a theme park where both casuals and hard-cores can exist and play together. That’s the minimum requirement I think a modern MMORPG should fulfill.

[Alise]

In a quick responsive battle, strategy does not matter, it come down to how quick players respond and dodging/counter attack. It seem to be the only type I could think of now for an A.I. to be challenge to players no matter bluegart release strategy or not.

Yes, I knew that until server respond quicker. (2.0) they could not do that kind of quick battle. So it is up to SE on how would they design type of content that is:
-challenge
-short time to win
-hard to learn.
-rely more skill, less strategy. (because youtube always ruin strategy part quickly)

To make best MMO that favor casual and hardcore,
They need brainstorming.

[Lienn]

Making everyone happy is why no one likes the game atm.........

This is the truth i've been rubbing at dev team face for like 3+ months...No game can please everyone...so they should focus on the way they chose...if they want to make a FFXI clone meant to offer korean e-peen to hardcore and poo overtime to casuals, so be it.

Until they accept it and focus on what they decided to do this game will keep failing. If they want a HC game then they should make a HC game. They could make a game where Vrtra, Absolute Virtue, Pandemonium Warden and other FFXI HC idols were child play. Make stuff so hard they can keep track of how many of that items are availble per server like they did with Relic weapons...but stop trying to please everyone.

This is also why i tell them the best thing that can happen to current FFXIV is the revival of the original FFXIV...this would allow the dev team to focus on 2.0 as a pure HC game and leave the casuals looking nice and doing easy(ish...just look at great buffalo...it never was really an easy content until party size was chopped down to 8), entertaining and fun stuff at original FFXIV.

"to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's"...or maybe "to HC what is HC's and to casual what is casual's"

[Shneibel]

they can make a game that please everyone and the solution is different server !!!!!!!!

casual : exp rate x100, drop rate x1k, boss stats - 5k

moderate: exp rate: normal, drop rate: normal, boss stats: same as SE planning to make


and guess which server the "casual" end up playing

[TheFatHousecat]

they can make a game that please everyone and the solution is different server !!!!!!!!

casual : exp rate x100, drop rate x1k, boss stats - 5k

moderate: exp rate: normal, drop rate: normal, boss stats: same as SE planning to make


and guess which server the "casual" end up playing

This is not a free Korean MMO.

[Alise]

-challenge
-short time to win
-hard to learn.
-rely more skill, less strategy. (because youtube always ruin strategy part quickly)

= please everyone. or at least majority demand.

[Silma]

This is the truth i've been rubbing at dev team face for like 3+ months...No game can please everyone...

the solution is different server !!!!!!!!

Please refrain from making such definitive statements. As pointed Amyrae, Yoshi-P already said there will be content for "both" type of players. You CAN have content that pleases everyone, just look at that MMO with 14M subscribers. And you CAN NOT have servers to seggregate people. That being said, as I pointed in another thread, difficult content is really what defines a game.

Hardcore dost not mean time sink.
There is no opposition between "casual" and "hardcore".

I think the best comment here so far is :

They need brainstorming.

They need manpower, several teams of developpers, time to think, create and test content. Ask the point of view of players about this or that idea. Post official polls on what content they want to be introduced next. Use their community which is the most precious treasure they have. Do not nerf content too fast.

[Isaveron]

From so many threads that have been repetitive and never get anywhere due to argument.
I would like to sum up the objective of each group:

Hardcore demand : a challenge content, that is actually hard. Something that feel like achievement because not everyone can complete.

This is hilarious, seeing as most of the so-called "hardcores" don't really want a challenge, they want time sinks and convolution.