The Fields of Glory (Shatter)

I queued for like 10 hours in total today and managed to get five Shatter games! Five. games.
Is this PvP mode already dead?

Mode's bad, and they learned absolutely jack all from the complaints about Seal Rock. Shatter is actually random - because the nodes don't respawn, you can get boxed into a position where your team can't contest any of the remaining nodes.

while i found it fun espiecally the 3 way tie we had in the 3rd 1 it doesnt feel to much like pvp to me... people wait til icebergs spawn then rush to those n try to zerg them asap with lbs n stuff then backaway n wait for next 1 SE really fail at anything pvp wise feast was seriously flawed aswell

honestly think queues will improve once people have gone through all the other new content weeping city ,hildy ,new dungeons and main story 1st day majority of people dont rush to farm tomes or pvp modes

Its the combination of 2 things Ode:

- The queue is broken, same as it always was. Thats why you can see a friend get 3+ pops while you wait in queue ad eternum. No effort whatsoever made to fix such a glaring problem.

- GC Restrictions...we all knew they were bad, we begged SE to remove them but no. That's why I changed to Adders today and had 5 matches in under 2 hours while Flames wait forever. They cling to this system that does way more harm than good.

On top of that, this new mode sucks. Might be Seal Rock nostalgia, but i'm not having as much fun as I did in this mode...I will give it more time because I love pvp but my first impressions aren't bad, they're terrible.

So great job SE on not fixing anything, killing Seal Rock which was a lot of fun and replacing it with this...giant piece of garbage. My question is: where is the pvp in this new mode!? No...even more inportantly, where is the fun!?

Omg I haven't even tried this new mode out yet and I'm hearing it's garbage already lol. Feast I'm sure is dead atm too cause of update so I guess not much pvp for me this week.

i think its really fun, people jus like to cry because they can. I mean its not even 24hrs and they b!tching already and they dont even know the full extent of the strategy's. Play, Learn, Enjoy.

I don't really know how to feel with this mode. It has cartenau's feeling like pushing them from cliff and destroying crystal, but annoyed with how in the end you waiting the node to tick until 1.8k and defend from 2 GCs.

Needs some more time for everyone to play with it and for it to grow and develop strategies. But it feels like their isn't a whole lot of a reason to kill a enemy player (besides attacking the enemy base) over attacking the node which kinda feels lame for a pvp mode. They should add some type of incentive to kill someone such as a system that chooses a person who has done the highest dps against the nodes that person gains an attack buff against nodes however if they are killed by a enemy team that team gains 50 pts. Or something along those lines to make it feel like i'm not just stabbing/shooting ice for 20 min :/

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Omg I haven't even tried this new mode out yet and I'm hearing it's garbage already lol. Feast I'm sure is dead atm too cause of update so I guess not much pvp for me this week.

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It's not that bad. The game mode itself is half-decent. I had some fun with it. It's just that it lacks actual PvP.

Basically, SE made the same mistake here that they did with Seize/Secure in that they made the PvE elements worth substantially more than the actual PvP. So, like in Seize/Secure, the vast majority of players will just sit on their thumbs until a crystal spawns and refuse to engage the enemy unless they have no other choice. Two teams on one crystal basically turns into one big dps race to see who can burn it faster. Once the crystal is done, everyone splits up to race one another to the next spawn. You can kind of think of it like a big scavenger hunt, in that way.

Of course, this also means that people have been falling into the same pitfalls they did in Secure and Slaughter. Teams are so unwilling to actually risk getting into combat that the outcome of the match is heavily swayed by the RNG of the crystal spawns, rather than kill proficiency. So, if you're looking for actual PvP, then you might be disappointed with this game mode. I'd like to say that this might change as time goes on ... but given the history of all the previous FL game modes, I doubt it.

That said, the game mode itself is still fun if you're willing to just take it for what it is. I've enjoyed my matches so far, and if you actually get that rare, once in a blue moon, aggressive team then it can really change the pace of the match. If you get your everyday generic brand of team, then you can at least still have fun with the fact that there are Secure Points on top of Crystal Spawns. It adds some much needed flair over they pure RNG game play of Seize.

anybody know the rewards for this mode? I am guessing it might be the white ADS mount?

pimpass title and white ADS

Cant wait to play some feast again... this mode is even worse than seal rock, prolly the worst of all pvp modes made so far. Its just bad im very disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Kyani

Mode's bad, and they learned absolutely jack all from the complaints about Seal Rock. Shatter is actually random - because the nodes don't respawn, you can get boxed into a position where your team can't contest any of the remaining nodes.

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Yes its a bit random (only small crystals in 24) its not even worth going for them if they are far away but saying there are situations u cant do anything is simply wrong. You just didnt found a strat for it yet maybe? Also a lot of people underestimating kills alot. You just crying about lost matches and blame rng for it.
Anyways back to topic most ppl play pve and since flame has full party qing it will take a while.

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Originally Posted by FREEHURP

i think its really fun, people jus like to cry because they can. I mean its not even 24hrs and they b!tching already and they dont even know the full extent of the strategy's. Play, Learn, Enjoy.

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Nice white knighting, 10/10!

It doesn't take much to realise that the goto strat for 99% of parties will be to just go hit the crystal that spawns and then retreat and wait for the next one...Hmmmm, so I queue for a pvp mode where most times players just ignore each other while they beat on a crystal trying to do the most damage to it...so i'm pretty much doing Stone, Sky, Sea with a party...yay!

The obvious strat for premades or those rare instances where DF blesses you with a decent party is to kill the enemy teams while they play around with the crystals and then finishing the crystal off after that.

You talk like this will have a super deep level of strat to it and it will take us ages to figure out the best way to win...it won't, the meta is already established and its boring!

I'm sorry if, to pick up on your expression, I'm b1itching after one day because I expect a new pvp mode to be about ACTUAL pvp instead of DPSing ice crystals for a whole match, but if I really want to be doing my PVE rotation on crystals I might as well go do pve.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

(only small crystals in 24)

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No there is two crystal spawns, one with small crystals and one with 5 big crystals.

Map is huge takes so long to get around. should add like jump pads or some kinda mount skill boost its like im runnin to china.

and make a smaller version for 24 mans lmao. shits a snooze fest.

Tried it out. 6 min queue. Map is great. Was alot of battling with other teams. I like the amended end screen with K/D/A. Looking forward to more :)

Queued up today and saw "More than 30 minutes." Immediately withdrew. I'm *hoping* that this long queue is just because people have been busy getting main story stuff out of the way... but still, you'd think they would queue up for just one game to try it out (like I planned to do)? Maybe the queue will be better in a few days... but perhaps not if people are saying it's boring. =/

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

Yes its a bit random (only small crystals in 24) its not even worth going for them if they are far away but saying there are situations u cant do anything is simply wrong. You just didnt found a strat for it yet maybe? Also a lot of people underestimating kills alot. You just crying about lost matches and blame rng for it.
Anyways back to topic most ppl play pve and since flame has full party qing it will take a while.

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In a longer small tomelith game (15+ tomeliths shattered), the deciding factor is going to be where the remaining crystals are. If the only crystals left are outside of your spawn's Zone of Influence.. well, I guess you should have tried harder to have them spawn better!

Seal Rock was often maligned for heavy RNG, but careful planning allowed teams to succeed against all but the very worst RNG, because they could leverage their strategic advantage into an increased number of options. Shatter, by contrast, does exactly the opposite. Because it takes away options as the game progresses, it becomes harder to alter the "intended" outcome of each match; as the game guides itself to its logical conclusion, it's easier for each team to realize what they need to do to win..but it's not a sure thing that all three teams can win from that state.

The non-respawning nature of nodes places a pretty strict cap on how far strategy will carry you, especially with the location of certain smaller nodes. In my opinion, that makes the mode a huge step backwards from Seal Rock.

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Originally Posted by xxczx

No there is two crystal spawns, one with small crystals and one with 5 big crystals.

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I know I meant only the small one depends on rng a bit ofc I know there are big ones I played a good amount of it.

Strat can carry alot! Just play a bit more I wont lie the small crystals in 24 were confusing as hell at the beginning but with right strats its okay. I just see to many ppl who go for crystals that are not worth it. All I have said goes for 24 it may be different in 72 but I like 24 so far.

It's not about crystals being worth it or not - it's the non-random nature of spawns leading to situations where you will never be the advantaged team on a node in the late game. This is something that's only possible because the game eliminates possibilities as the match goes on.

Unmitigated RNG is bad. Knowing you never had a shot to mitigate it in the first place is worse.

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Originally Posted by Kyani

It's not about crystals being worth it or not - it's the non-random nature of spawns leading to situations where you will never be the advantaged team on a node in the late game. This is something that's only possible because the game eliminates possibilities as the match goes on.

Unmitigated RNG is bad. Knowing you never had a shot to mitigate it in the first place is worse.

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Wait what? Non random spawns are less rng and make it easier to follow a certain strat meanwhile in Seize you could get fked all game lol. The fact that ppl complain about rng cause they lost is just meh. There is always something called like killing that u can do to get back.

If the nodes spawn along edges between the other two GCs (far from your team, possibly not worth the travel time) just hit the enemy GC flags.

Despite the map's maze edges, the three flags are relatively close, just a straight shot from the center arena.

Hold your 1/3 of center, hit nodes near you, and cap-and-back flags when nodes aren't worth the travel time (small nodes).

The flags are the balance to the RNG of nodes, it seems at least from map's design.

Matches get glitched sometimes x-x

The last match I was in, a player that was on adder spawned into my base/party composition (I'm a Flame). I've heard of this happening to a few other people as well.

I feel the map is overwhelmingly large for 24 people, but seems fine for 72.

People have complained about this mode promoting sitting on nodes and such and not engaging in combat. The few games I've play have had people frequently engaged, though.

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Originally Posted by auron_seifer

I'm sorry if, to pick up on your expression, I'm b1itching after one day because I expect a new pvp mode to be about ACTUAL pvp instead of DPSing ice crystals for a whole match, but if I really want to be doing my PVE rotation on crystals I might as well go do pve.

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Go play the feast then if you want to just kill players...?

Having objective filled maps in a big team makes it fun rather than just a kill fest. Slaughter was garbage.

Shattered is a lot more strategic and there seem to be plenty of ways to win. Its not boring attack this person first then that person there.

All its been is whining and crying for the past 5 monthes since Feast was launched meh, gonna enjoy the new mode new map and work on the new achievements. Some people just cannot be satisfied with simple things. I get it , its not the best "oh wow" new thing but its a nice new map with a twist.
Honestly i do miss Seal Rock a bit but this is what we have now so gonna rock it out a lil more. No matter what i believe 3-5 ques of a game is still too early to justify it being shit.

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Originally Posted by AbandonHopeTD

I like the amended end screen with K/D/A. Looking forward to more :)

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Agreed. This was cool. I though it was nice of them to split up the Dmg counter between Dmg done to crystals vs dmd done to players. Having it like that does show exactly how little PvP actually goes on in this mode, but it also paints a much better picture of how the match went and what exactly was happening. The only thing that could make it better would be allowing us to view it after we've left the match. Because, I've left the match early a few times, before I was done looking at the stats. It would have been cool to be able to view past match results while waiting for the queue train.

And yes, I know that I'm weird because I like looking at the stats...

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Originally Posted by Slib

Having objective filled maps in a big team makes it fun rather than just a kill fest. Slaughter was garbage.

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I agree that Slaughter was garbage (though even that wasn't purely PvP, since there were still drones), but I don't it's wrong to expect PvP in an actual PvP game mode. The problem isn't that there are objectives. The problem (if you can call it that) is that the PvE objectives dramatically outweigh the gains from PvP. In the worst cases, people don't even want to fight and spend the entire match just running away from each other until they're forced to rub shoulders on the same crystal spawn. It's still player versus player, mind you, but it's more of an indirect competition than a battle, and Front Lines is kind of supposed to be a battle.

The thing is, I don't think there's a way to really "fix" that. Even if kills were weighted more (which would be nice), it still falls to the players to actually choose to fight. Sadly, most players who queue for Front Lines are too afraid of PvP to do that; so, we're kind of stuck running the RNG obstacle course rather than getting into a battle. It's still fun, of course. I've been enjoying Shatter quite a bit, but I do still hope that Feast queues pick back up sometime in the near future.

I was initially really excited for shatter because I thought they were trying to bring back something similar to secure. Instead we got the worst parts of slaughter & seize combined into one. I'm having fun with it for now because its new, but I'm curious about long term potential. Slaughter & seize were both far more popular than secure, likely because theres less pressure and you don't actually have to know what you're doing to participate.

I do like the map itself though. Reminds me a bit of WvWvW in GW2. I'd love to see something like secure on this map, where you have to spread out and control various points instead of running around in a huge group of lemmings.

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Originally Posted by Februs

I agree that Slaughter was garbage (though even that wasn't purely PvP, since there were still drones).

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I'm not sure how it was on western servers, but on the Gaia data center the meta got to the point where slaughter was almost 100% PVE. Within a month of release everyone would just run away as soon as the drones died because the two losing teams ganged up on first place, but if 1st place ran away the other two would have to fight each other if they tried to chase them. This devolved to the point where 1st place would flee before the drones even died, or as soon as they noticed an enemy team coming close to attempt a LB barrage. As a result, slaughter became a mode where you tried to out DPS the other team with 18 black mages and then just ran away to avoid conflict after the race was over. The only time people ever attacked was if someone was out of position or if 1st place was so far ahead that they could leave the center entirely and come up behind the 2nd place team to kill them then spawn camp them. The slaughterhouse title was very rare back then.

This was by far the low point of FF14's PVP for me and I'm really hoping shatter doesn't become something similar.

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Originally Posted by Invalid_Name

I'm not sure how it was on western servers, but on the Gaia data center the meta got to the point where slaughter was almost 100% PVE.

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It was the same on the North American data centres. Even Secure played similar after the average game size shrunk to 24-man. Once you got your base Secured, everyone would head up to the top of the tower and stare at each other awkwardly while we waited for drones to spawn. Drones popped in. Dps check/race started up. Drones died. Everyone split back up and waited for the next set.

The only time anything different happened was if someone was cheeky and sneaked behind another team to steal their flag, but even then it wasn't all that exciting because it was usually just one or two players. No one would want to send their full team because if they did that they'd be leaving only one GC up topside to collect ALL the drones, guaranteeing their win. Most times it was just a minor inconvenience of having to go back down to re-secure your flag, then head back up and repeat the drone dps check. By comparison, the earlier matches of 72-man Secure were much more exciting, because the teams were always fighting over the additional capture points instead of purely focusing on drones.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

Wait what? Non random spawns are less rng and make it easier to follow a certain strat meanwhile in Seize you could get fked all game lol. The fact that ppl complain about rng cause they lost is just meh. There is always something called like killing that u can do to get back.

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You'd think non-random spawns would be less RNG, but in reality? They play out to be worse!

When spawns are fully random, each team is playing with the same deck and can make decisions based off of their path to victory. When spawns are semi-random,however, the decks become uneven - you have to make choices based off of what the RNG allows, rather than ones that will win you the game. And the RNG doesn't always think you deserve a shot to win.

In Seal Rock, you could outplay RNG, either by outmaneuvering people to stack the odds in your favor, or simply by killing them. Shatter.. the jury is still deliberating, but right now? Not so much.

Reading all of these comments made me appreciate Seal Rock even more!

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Originally Posted by Kyani

You'd think non-random spawns would be less RNG, but in reality? They play out to be worse!

When spawns are fully random, each team is playing with the same deck and can make decisions based off of their path to victory. When spawns are semi-random,however, the decks become uneven - you have to make choices based off of what the RNG allows, rather than ones that will win you the game. And the RNG doesn't always think you deserve a shot to win.

In Seal Rock, you could outplay RNG, either by outmaneuvering people to stack the odds in your favor, or simply by killing them. Shatter.. the jury is still deliberating, but right now? Not so much.

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Ehm you can outplay/killing/outmaneuvering ppl in shatter too. Since you can predict a bit more than in sr its way easier to outplay other teams. Thats just my impression after 20+ games. Also there is more fighting than in most ppl think in my opinion and from what I saw in 72.

The map is awful especially for 24 man. I love pvp in this game but man this map is awful.

Also, in 72 man, I feel like the game is mostly just a DPS race rather than actual pvp. Around the node it is more beneficial to just go all out on the ice rather than attack other players. When it is dead pretty much everyone pulls out anyway. I am honestly disappointed in this map/mode, but I feel like it could be fixed with some adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Invalid_Name

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I agree and remiss for the same things. TY for putting it into better words. 72 Secure was my favorite for similar reasons, 3 pseudo-Wolves Den fights (Parties A & C) going simultaneously while Team B managed center node(s) and assist faltering party A/C during downtime. It's still PVP, it's still unscripted, but at least the transitional phases there were a natural shove, by design, to get X encounter here, Y encounter there.

It's been harder to come by in Seal Rock lately (players that care aren't around anymore). Since, it's felt for me Frontlines has just been de-evolving into Team deathmatch,

I guess Feast is to blame? IDK, Free-sprint, CC nerfs, and the faster LB build may have been a factor (at least in Slaughter, people who were grinding for hand of mercy specifically could just BLM/SMN and not break the design intent).

Or maybe because the zerg deathmatch approach is working for some people, everyone else just follows that white rabbit...


anyway, a POSITIVE: what I appreciate about this Shatter, is they brought back the debris and obstacles that help kiters break LoS, and the return of knock back.

But especially the debris, didn't realize how much I missed those little LoS-breaking-delights (which were mostly absent on the Seal Rock map).

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Snip.

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It really makes you appreciate that old game mode, doesn't it? It is just a shame that they couldn't sustain the same style of play when Secure got downgraded to 24 man. Personally, I think that they made a mistake there. Instead of having drone spawns at the top of the tower, they should have had a fourth flag. That way, everyone would be forced to fight for supremacy of a second flag either up top or at someone else's base while they were distracted. I think it would have worked a lot better than the rinse and repeat drone camp.

The deathmatch style that took over in the last days of Seize was purely caused by the enhanced LB meter. That was a flat out mistake on SE's part. They even admitted that it wasn't working as intended and patched it out of all FL modes when they released Shatter. So, the pace of the matches should go back to what you're familiar with.

Ps. I totally agree with the Line of Sight comment. I did not realize how much I missed having debris to hide behind in FL until I used it for the first time in Shatter. I'm not 100% satisfied with the map, but the fact that they put that back into it is definitely a plus that puts it WAY over the Seize map in my book.

Ugh, this map. Im certain the meta for shatter will become "ignore the other teams and do your pve dps rotations as hard as possible on the training dummies... i mean *nodes*" because the moment you engage an opposing team all you do is ensure that the team whom you're not engaging is going to win. Its awful. Its like the worst aspects of seal rock combined with secure. And secure was awful. IDK why people have so much nostalgia over it. Secure is what turned a vast majority of the playerbase off to pvp.

edit: whoops, meant "secure"