[DRK]; Living Dead; Suggestion/Discussion

Hey there XIV forums,

I've been playing as DRK, and with many DRKs, and I feel that the implementation of their ultimate defensive cooldown, Living Dead, is not as dynamic and interesting as it could be.

The Suggestion
Add an additional condition of cleansing Walking Dead:
-If you hit an enemy with a combo'd Souleater while Walking Dead is active and Dark Arts is not active, Walking Dead is removed.
-In addition, your MP is reduced to 10% of your maximum; and any MP drained is used to empower the healing component of Souleater, up to a maximum of 600%.

I think having an alternate condition to end Walking Dead which is not as big of a tax on healer resources is a good idea for the class.

I also think this alternative condition also plays into the DRK fantasy of ensuring your own survival by taking matters into your own hands and making big sacrifices.

Numbers tuning is required. I am not a meowthematician.

______________________________________________________________
Reasoning

The pressure on healers is too great for Walking Dead; especially with the change to Vitality. Healing up a properly-geared DRKs for 100% of their health in 10s is not hard, but it is taxing on MP; or requires the use of another cooldown (Benediction, Tetragramaton, Essential Dignity).

Neither of the other cooldowns require such an investment of MP from the healer. Holmgang requires a single Cure 2 after the hit lands. DRK requires 3 Cure 2's minimum.
_____________________________________________________________
Feedback / Discussion

I'm interested in what the XIV Forum community thinks about this idea. Any DRKs raiding Savage think this would be a good addition to the class? Any DRKs who would like this to save themselves from healers in random groups who don't know to heal you up?
Any more suggestions on how to alter Living Dead?
Do you like Living Dead as it is?

Have a nice day,
-some c@

I don't think Living Dead is as bad as people think it is, however, it needs an extra coordination component that many pickup groups lack. In my opinion, it could use some sort of tweak to make it more intuitive, but I wouldn't know what exactly, since I don't really have anything against it beyond using it with randoms.

I think the general problem with LD is that if you're not at 1 during it for a long duration, healers will generally not be aware of that tiny icon. The only way to really bypass it is using a macro or, if using voice chat, being vocal about when you're going to use it/if you've used it. With Hallowed, you take literally no damage so healers can be off in Siberia and it wouldn't matter. With Holmgang as long as you're not at 1 by the end of it then it s done it's job. I think Walking Dead's healing requirement is a bit... severe - maybe just lowering that to half would make it easier.

An issue I didn't really want to express in the OP (as I felt it was already to lengthy) is:

There is no good indicator for how far along of healing the DRK for a cummulative 100% of their max HP you are. The game's UI is woefully lacking in that critical detail, which makes it all the more difficult to judge.

You could count the healing numbers you're dealing, but that sort of mathyness shouldn't be expected of Healers when it isn't expected of them for anything else.

I certainly agree with the idea that living dead could use a little more love. First, I think it would be nice to have a visual effect of some sort when walking dead kicks in. Second, perhaps have the debuff itself state how much HP still needs to be healed to take it off.

I was also thinking, in some future point, of one possible new ability for Dark Knights come the next expansion that could also help out. Perhaps an ability to "eat" one debuff which can possibly even restore MP and/or HP, but one great point of this would be its ability to also get rid of the walking dead debuff.

It could have a countdown above the character's head once Walking Dead kicked in, similar to how Doom worked on past FF's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zer0Virus

I certainly agree with the idea that living dead could use a little more love. First, I think it would be nice to have a visual effect of some sort when walking dead kicks in. Second, perhaps have the debuff itself state how much HP still needs to be healed to take it off.


I was also thinking, in some future point, of one possible new ability for Dark Knights come the next expansion that could also help out. Perhaps an ability to "eat" one debuff which can possibly even restore MP and/or HP, but one great point of this would be its ability to also get rid of the walking dead debuff.

---

I don't think mousing over the debuff is an efficient way of showing how much more needs to be healed; but changing the debuff color may help. Unfortunately, XIV updates its buff/debuff icons for others too slowly for this to be much use, but it's a thought.

I like the debuff-eating type of idea, but I think an ability like that seems like it would almost exclusively be used for WD, similar to how Waren's Paen is only really used to get rid of WAR's pacification; or how Raw Intuition and Awareness are never not used in combination.

Still a good general idea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

It could have a countdown above the character's head once Walking Dead kicked in, similar to how Doom worked on past FF's.

---

I was very disappointed when I first triggered Walking Dead that this did not happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think the general problem with LD is that if you're not at 1 during it for a long duration, healers will generally not be aware of that tiny icon. The only way to really bypass it is using a macro or, if using voice chat, being vocal about when you're going to use it/if you've used it. With Hallowed, you take literally no damage so healers can be off in Siberia and it wouldn't matter. With Holmgang as long as you're not at 1 by the end of it then it s done it's job. I think Walking Dead's healing requirement is a bit... severe - maybe just lowering that to half would make it easier.

---

Macro does indeed solve a lot of issues with LD, I'm the sort of person that thinks that pretty much every tank should tie up a macro to their ultimate cooldown in order for healers to be made aware of their usage (even if you can't action queue a macro you can just always spam the button, it's not THAT bad, just attack a /wait line to the macro in order to avoid chat spam). Granted tho, I think a good idea would be to simply add a convalescence like effect to Living Dead, the Dark Knight receiving 30% more heals during its duration... or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

It could have a countdown above the character's head once Walking Dead kicked in, similar to how Doom worked on past FF's.

---

Our minds must think alike. I also would like our stats to be buffed by at least 50% for the duration for defenses as well as attack power to bolster our heals. In other games when DRK's casted Doom on themselves they did it with the promise of power with death as the cost.

I might just have to Macro one of the obnoxious shapes or Icons once Living Dead is active.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Our minds must think alike. I also would like our stats to be buffed by at least 50% for the duration for defenses as well as attack power to bolster our heals. In other games when DRK's casted Doom on themselves they did it with the promise of power with death as the cost.

I might just have to Macro one of the obnoxious shapes or Icons once Living Dead is active.

---

I wish they had the decency of looking at other games when they introduced DRK here. Anyway, Walking Dead would do with any visual cue, be it a countdown, turning the character's color black and white, or whatever.

I'd rework it to either need to be healed up by the amount that the attack that triggered it did(though no more than current max health) or 50% hp.

I do like the OPs idea of having something on your own to cleanse it though.

Does seem strange this move is so much more punishing than Paladin or Warriors. Most DRK's I've had use macros but I've still had a death and many close calls. Lots of accidental triggers that stressed everyone out or times when I used Benediction to save a tank only for their living dead to pop on a second after that. *drags hands down face*.

I like the idea of a countdown over their head or some other very visual queue aside from a small icon that frankly can be easy to miss since unless you know what you are looking for. It could be a freakin' buff at a glance if you aren't too familiar with DRK's as I wasn't the first few times I had one. lol. I'd almost like it to trigger a tether between the DRK and a healer as long as they are within healing range that either buffs the effectiveness of healing on the DRK or buffs the healers heals for the duration or the DRK only. I'm not a coder so goodness knows if that's possible but *shrug*. Heck or even instead of it only counting on the DRK, if it counted all heals that healer dealt out during the duration even if they aren't directed at the DRK. One of the things I like least about that ability is if the tank is nearly dead, sometimes that means the party is struggling too and I then get to make the call of letting other people die because now the DRK is in peril and needs my full attention. Again, possible? Not a clue. XD

Another problem with DRKs is that they pop the macro upon triggering LD - and some healers will start overhealing them like crazy thus it never triggers WD. Would be better to do a WD triggered heal me up please macro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ruskie

Another problem with DRKs is that they pop the macro upon triggering LD - and some healers will start overhealing them like crazy thus it never triggers WD. Would be better to do a WD triggered heal me up please macro.

---

Problem with the skill though is there is always the chance we won't proc WD to begin with and there is no way to macro that with pinpoint accuracy. I might have to use an additional button on my setup to mark myself with an Icon and an obnoxious message saying STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING I NEED HEALING NOW.

Right now most macro's are going to be a message telling you if you see the grey hourglass icon I better hope the healer sees it.

Holmgang and Hallowed Ground both just work unlike LD which relies completely on the healer and does not synergize well with the class it comes from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

If you hit an enemy with a combo'd Souleater while Walking Dead is active and Dark Arts is not active, Walking Dead is removed.

---

I definitely enjoy the idea of having something like this, but oftentimes when using LD, my tank is almost assuredly using souleater whether he has the mp for dark arts or not. This would just add an unnecessary layer of complexity to the ability's usage in my opinion. Half the time LD is being used, it's ideal to have the walking dead effect active as long as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zer0Virus

I was also thinking, in some future point, of one possible new ability for Dark Knights come the next expansion that could also help out. Perhaps an ability to "eat" one debuff which can possibly even restore MP and/or HP, but one great point of this would be its ability to also get rid of the walking dead debuff.

---

Walking Dead is a buff, though. It's clearly got the little arrow pointing up.

It also doesn't need other ways to be removed. Taking Walking Dead off while at half health is gonna likely get you killed again, since your healers are asleep at the wheel. Removing it at 1 HP isn't even helpful. I don't understand why people are touting these as good suggestions...


That said, this whole thread is looking in the exact wrong direction.

There's nothing wrong with Living Dead, when it's used properly. When I play healer, it's incredibly obvious when the skill has been cast already (It's a striking bright red debuff among the sea of purple and yellow that Dark Knight has access to) and, being the not-shit player I am, I then watch for the death transition to Walking Dead and heal up afterwards. Because, gonna be honest - if you've dropped to 1 hp left (no matter the situation) and do not get healed back at least your maximum health within the next 10 seconds, it's the healers that are to blame, not the skill.

Even if Benediction is on cooldown, you have 3 Lustrates per 60s, 1 Tetragrammaton per 60s, 1 Essential Dignity per 40s (which scales with how little health the target has left!) -- coupled with a fairy and/or Regen that should be healing the tank. There's really, honestly, no excuse for letting your Dark Knight die to Walking Dead unless both healers are eating dirt.

Sure, it's extra taxing on your mana, I suppose, but those heals are all gonna go out after a Holmgang, anyway, even if not immediately. It is literally exactly the same.

Also important to note is that Benediction and Living Dead have the exact same cooldown, so in a raid setting, if you have WHM+DRK, they can just coordinate together and never run into issues.

Essential dignity is 40sec cooldown
And if it crit it work like a semi benediction

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nekotee

Essential dignity is 40sec cooldown
And if it crit it work like a semi benediction

---

I thought it was shorter than 60, but I didn't wanna load up my game and xivdb told me 60, so I just ran with that, figuring it was more likely to be right than a random guess from me.

I only remember that it's shorter CD than tetra
And longer from 2/3 sec than sephirot tank mega-fist-in-your-face (which are 37/38 second apart)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jssanderson747

I definitely enjoy the idea of having something like this, but oftentimes when using LD, my tank is almost assuredly using souleater whether he has the mp for dark arts or not. This would just add an unnecessary layer of complexity to the ability's usage in my opinion. Half the time LD is being used, it's ideal to have the walking dead effect active as long as possible.

---

It requires the user of the cooldown to plan accordingly for it. If they do not, they are punished for it.

I think this is a fair trade; and aside from this, it would function as an alternative to the current method of cleansing WD; which is for healers to invest more of their resources into healing 100% of the DRK's max HP.

Aside from that, Walking Dead has a duration of 10s. That's enough time to finish current combo, and begin a new one; and you can also delay your usage of Souleater as late as possible; later than a healer can accurately aim for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Holmgang and Hallowed Ground both just work unlike LD which relies completely on the healer and does not synergize well with the class it comes from.

---

This is the core of my issues with the skill. It requires more from the healers than either Holmgang or Hallowed Ground; and is not functionally superior to either of them in any meaningful way. +thumb

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ruskie

I'd rework it to either need to be healed up by the amount that the attack that triggered it did(though no more than current max health) or 50% hp.

I do like the OPs idea of having something on your own to cleanse it though.

---

Aside from the OP suggestion of DRKs cleansing it themselves, I thought that in 3.2 they would make DRKs receive more healing when Walking Dead is active. it would make WD functionally superior in some way to Holmgang; which would definetly make it more deserving of its longer cooldown. +thumb

Hello, first time poster, frequent lurker.

Unfortunately I have some very different difficulties with using LD before I think need to be addressed before the ability gets a rework. The problem I have is that when I have an "OH SHIT!" moment and hit LD the cool down starts at the beginning of the animation, but the actual LD buff doesn't apply until the end of the (rather lengthy) animation. This has created numerous occasions where I'll pop LD, die anyway, and get Raised with very little MP/TP and now missing what was supposed to be my ultimate cool down that didn't do anything for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Staldragon8

Hello, first time poster, frequent lurker.

Unfortunately I have some very different difficulties with using LD before I think need to be addressed before the ability gets a rework. The problem I have is that when I have an "OH SHIT!" moment and hit LD the cool down starts at the beginning of the animation, but the actual LD buff doesn't apply until the end of the (rather lengthy) animation. This has created numerous occasions where I'll pop LD, die anyway, and get Raised with very little MP/TP and now missing what was supposed to be my ultimate cool down that didn't do anything for me.

---

Welcome to being a tank. PLD's Hallowed Ground and WAR's Holmgang have the exact same issue.

You basically can't treat LD/Holmgang/Hallowed like "o shit" buttons, like all your other CDs you have to plan to use them ahead of time.

I like Living Dead, but also hate it. You're always at the mercy of healers, and the punishment is death. While they could rework the punishment, to say a non-removable pacify or something, I had an idea that I liked even more...

My idea was to have the DRK create a shadowed/void/etc clone(there's a large degree of leeway here to come up with something, skeleton minions, etc.) of themselves that took all enmity from the Tank and auto attacked the player's target. This clone would be treated as a companion somewhat, and in the case of A4S would be sucked into the quarantine if that question ever came up. At the end of the 10sec(adjustable for balance purposes) all debuffs on the clone would be transferred back to the DRK along with all current enmity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

snip

---

Very much this. The term "oh shit button" is a phrase I strongly dislike personally, as the skills shouldn't be viewed as such. LD, Holmgang and Hallowed are all a part of a tank's toolkit, and they should preferrably be planned out and included in a tank's cooldown rotation. Holding on to them in case of a wipe is far less effective and usually ends up being a waste anyway.

Your suggestion makes it 100% easily removeable long as you can target a mob; that's too easy.

It's been brought up before that it's harder to heal due to tanks having more HP now in other threads, and I still think the suggestion I put forth is the best and simplest:

1.Figure out the % HP tanks on average have now more than before.

2.Add a healing potency received to the "walking dead status" to match. (That is, only the grey icon portion of living dead, not the red icon status)

...with that change there's literally no change to walking dead until the part where healers need to heal their max HP, and the part where they do becomes the same potencies needed as it was before the STR/VIT change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alistaire

Your suggestion makes it 100% easily removeable long as you can target a mob; that's too easy.

It's been brought up before that it's harder to heal due to tanks having more HP now in other threads, and I still think the suggestion I put forth is the best and simplest:

1.Figure out the % HP tanks on average have now more than before.

2.Add a healing potency received to the "walking dead status" to match. (That is, only the grey icon portion of living dead, not the red icon status)

...with that change there's literally no change to walking dead until the part where healers need to heal their max HP, and the part where they do becomes the same potencies needed as it was before the STR/VIT change.

---

I agree with the added healing potency received. For now we'll just have to settle with convalensce.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sailysium

I agree with the added healing potency received. For now we'll just have to settle with convalensce.

---

Ya know I was thinking about this and there is also the possibility SE wants it to be harder to heal through it, maybe they thought it was too easy before and didn't have a way to make it as hard as they wanted to, but with this change it gave a "solution".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alistaire

Your suggestion makes it 100% easily removeable long as you can target a mob; that's too easy.

It's been brought up before that it's harder to heal due to tanks having more HP now in other threads, and I still think the suggestion I put forth is the best and simplest:

1.Figure out the % HP tanks on average have now more than before.

2.Add a healing potency received to the "walking dead status" to match. (That is, only the grey icon portion of living dead, not the red icon status)

...with that change there's literally no change to walking dead until the part where healers need to heal their max HP, and the part where they do becomes the same potencies needed as it was before the STR/VIT change.

---

If you remove it from yourself when you're below 10k, you're just going to get yourself killed.
It requires healers to bump you up; but my suggestion would give you control over it, and wouldn't tax healers so much more than HG or Holmgang. Alongside that, it's largely guesswork on the healer's part how close they are to dispelling WD.
I listed these reasons in the OP. If you disagree with these reasons, I'm interested to hear why.

That said, I think a healing increase during WD's buff time would also be a good solution. A flat 20% wouldn't tax healers nearly as hard.
We would still have the issue of the UI not displaying adequate detail on the progress of healing off WD. It's something you get used to "counting out", but to me that seems a bit too archaic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

If you remove it from yourself when you're below 10k, you're just going to get yourself killed.
It requires healers to bump you up; but my suggestion would give you control over it, and wouldn't tax healers so much more than HG or Holmgang. Alongside that, it's largely guesswork on the healer's part how close they are to dispelling WD.
I listed these reasons in the OP. If you disagree with these reasons, I'm interested to hear why.

That said, I think a healing increase during WD's buff time would also be a good solution. A flat 20% wouldn't tax healers nearly as hard.
We would still have the issue of the UI not displaying adequate detail on the progress of healing off WD. It's something you get used to "counting out", but to me that seems a bit too archaic.

---

Not sure what you mean, I'm not talking about removing anything from yourself...

OP suggestion is basically "perform a normal 3-hit combo and you're fine", which is completely absurd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alistaire

OP suggestion is basically "perform a normal 3-hit combo and you're fine", which is completely absurd.

---

tbf Hallowed is "press a button and you're fine"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

tbf Hallowed is "press a button and you're fine"

---

A lot shorter duration and longer cooldown though, which is a big part of that balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alistaire

A lot shorter duration and longer cooldown though, which is a big part of that balance.

---

I mean Holmgang is shorter duration, shorter CD, and despite rooting you to the ground and requiring a target doesn't have any funky healer interaction. Healers basically have to specifically accommodate for DRK by either spam healing or saving big healing CDs just for LD. I think being able to heal yourself up to full or something would be ridiculous, but having the requirement to get out be a DASE or s/t is fine as you'd need to time it so you end Walking Dead without putting yourself in a situation where you get insta-gibbed while still requiring healing to get you back into the safety zone. That obviously doesn't necessarily have to be the change, but generally it'd be nice if LD was less clunky compared to Holmgang and HG.

How about...

Walking Dead activates when the tank's HP reaches 0 during Living Dead. During WD (10 seconds) the tank can't die and the tank's self heals and received heals have no effect on the tank's HP. When WD expires, the tank's health becomes 10% of maximum regardless of any healing they have received.

Healers still need to stay alert and it's still triggered by HP reaching 0, but the healing requirement is not as crazy because there is more time to react (at least 10 seconds of WD before the need to heal) and only 90% of HP needs returned. A well timed precast works as well as a healing cooldown so being proactive with healing is rewarded. You also see exactly how much you need to heal for the tank to be safe. Tanks would need to be aware to not end up with 10% HP just before a tank buster. The cooldown would be better the more vitality the tank has because the safety margin increases with higher maximum health.