Pally Is Almost Perfect

With the 3.2 changes, paladin is almost perfect. I can now proc my own Divine Veil. Clemency is faster. I don't run out of TP so fast.

There's just two more problems. Please fix to make perfect.

1. It's lame that I can't cast Cover on somebody in a different Alliance, like in void ark. They have to actually be in my party for it to work. In a Full Group I can cover the other tank when things get bad, but with Alliances I can never cover the other tank.

2. Tempered Will cool down is way too long. Any time I could use it and feel badass, I can't use it the next two times. For example, to stop the knockback on last boss in Neverreap. Who cares when I can't stop the next two knockbacks! >.<

3) Why is PLD the only tank that has to burn GCD to switch stances? Isn't it already bad enough that

4) they have to wait til 40 for their tank stance?

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Originally Posted by cheolsu

I don't run out of TP so fast.

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Improved but not fixed, our TP will still hit the floor (now slightly slower) with no way to stop or fix it without halting DPS. We either need a TP restore, or an MP move that deals damage for the TP problem to be fixed, no amount of cost adjustments will fix it.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Improved but not fixed, our TP will still hit the floor (now slightly slower) with no way to stop or fix it without halting DPS. We either need a TP restore, or an MP move that deals damage for the TP problem to be fixed, no amount of cost adjustments will fix it.

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I'm okay with running out of TP eventually, because it adds some variety. I mean, if we never run out of TP, then it doesn't really matter that we have TP. There are plenty of things to do with MP as TP recovers.

You can Flash, cast Clemency, and cast Stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by cheolsu

You can Flash, cast Clemency, and cast Stoneskin.

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All of which are useless if you have hate and have healers, if its anything like 3.1, I was standing still and auto-attacking because I had no reason to use my MP. I never said we should never run out of TP, I said:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

an MP move that deals damage

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So that we can keep consistent DPS and manage our TP.

I like the adjustments for Pld. I want cover to reach further.

I have to say I'm generally rather happy with 3.2 pld cause before 3.2 it was super lacking now its better because many people begged for these changes including I :)

as for tp it lasts alittle longer now than it did prior to 3.2 so should be fine most part.

Perfect? I think not...

Clemency was a decent change. I guess it makes it a little easier to use, though it doesn't make much of a difference, considering it was only ever used in fixed places during scripted fights anyway. It still can't be surecasted, so that really hasn't changed.

Divine Veil was also a good fix, in that it now works the way it should have worked from the start.

Pld Dps ... is still bullsh*t and chips. We got a potency buff, only to have our overall Dps nerfed by the Tank-wide Nerf. Gee, SE. Thanks a bunch for making our Dps go absolutely nowhere (actually might be a tad lower). All in all, though, I can live with this. Pld dps was always low (for some, garbage, arbitrary reason), so it's nothing new, and the Dps checks aren't as stupid this time around.

Tp ... Still sucks. I mean, wow. It takes me 4 minutes to flat-line my Tp bar instead of 3. What an awesome fix! Thanks SE! You have no idea how much that extra minute means to me! /sarcasm.

I'm not saying that Pld's should never run out of Tp (like one particular Tank we all know well), but it is stupid that Pld's have no way to manage their Tp expenditure. Before anyone points this out (because I've seen this argument before), No. Clemency does not count as Tp management. It is only ever used in fixed times during fights. You can not spam cast it to make up your Tp, and each cast of Clemency is a huge Dps loss (which is the complete opposite of the goal of managing your Tp). Further, given that we can already murder our Tp bars (albeit slower) now, their Tp reductions are only a temporary fix. when skill speeds start to increase, we could very well be back down to the same spot where we were before the patch. Then we'll have to start this whole mess all over again.

Cover was completely ignored.

Tempered Will was completely ignored. The main problem with these two being that Pld is the ONLY tank job that has moves that they don't, and often can't, use. That's just plain stupid.

Oath swapping basically did not change. It doesn't cancel our combo anymore. Great. It still takes a turn of the GCD, meaning that the best time to use it is at the start of a combo (typically when FoF comes back around off of CD). Meaning the optimal way of using SwO is: Sword Oath > Fight or Flight > Fast blade ... notice that this usage does not interrupt our combo anyway? That's cuz' it doesn't. The optimal way of using Sword Oath never did. So this change is just window dressing.

Shield Oath was a decent change. It helps secure an aggro lead, and makes tank swapping easier. Though, this is hardly unique to Pld, because every tank had their enmity increased. So ... nothing special here. Moving on.

Sword Oath was ignored ... again. I'm not sure there's a number in existence for how many times a change has been requested to SwO. Everything from potency buffs to effect changes have been submitted to SE. What did we get? Nothing. It's exactly the same, and the best advantage of having it active is not having your dps reduced by the dmg reduction of shield oath... which you can also get just by dropping shield oath (which did not cancel combos, ever, and could be used more freely from the start). Is this absolutely horrible? No. It functions just fine, but it was certainly a missed opportunity for SE to do something meaningful to the Pld job.

All in all, Pld's changes were fine, I guess, but they are tremendously lack luster. The job plays exactly the same as it did before. Most of the serious, long standing, issues that have plagued it are still around in one form or another. The only one that I can say is a solid, undoubtedly good, change was the increase of Pld aggro on savage blade, as it rewards players for maximizing their Dps instead of just spamming RoH/Flash. All in all, though, the change is mostly just there. There were so many different things that they could have done to give Pld a serious overhaul, address all of it's issues, and give it a solid identity, but, as usual, they took the shortest and simplest path to "fixing" it. It functions now, sure, but the changes are nothing special and definitely not perfect.

I am kind of amazed how many paladin abilities were modified without fixing much. I agree paladin is a bit better now but overall the changes were uninspired.

I do not understand why divine veil can't apply its weak shield immediately instead of requiring a two second cast that's often wasted because I'm just triggering veil. It's better but not good.

Other problems persist: no way to manage TP, an awkward combo that makes applying multiple dots take forever and is weirdly combined with mana regeneration, annoying to use stun, weak AoE, lack of utility, and other awkward abilities like Cover and Tempered Will that are to hard to use or have CDs that are too long for what they do.

I get the feeling no one has vision for paladin, so they had someone tweak some things and call it good. 3.2 is an improvement but not nearly perfect.

Clemency's fantastic as-is now, can be used in a multitude of places in practical ways that actually saves lives. Cases like VA, when boss casts Black Lung I immediately look at who's in his path because they're going to die. Also works to heal self as needed.

I used Cover in my Sephirot SM the other day when neither tank expected adds and they nearly burned down my healer. It can also be useful in A5(M1), DV, Vault, TEX and a number of other places in a way that's more scripted, but would love added range, outside of party usage, and magic Mitigation.

Sword Oath would be fantastic oGCD, but our damage should never be great. The overall tank nerf is irrelevant to us in this conversation because we don't need good DPS, we needed comparable-to-other-tanks DPS just so we remain viable in that department, not so we excel, and that DPS gap between tanks has shrunk.

TP was my only real frustration but it has been way better, no complaints yet. Veil is awesome. Tempered Will could definitely use a shorter CD, it's not powerful enough to justify its duration. If there's a reason that is can't be made shorter (fear of PLD being OP on future mechanics like in Titan) then it should be given an additional effect so that it can benefit us more regularly

Tempered Will is OP, I always used it during Divebombs (the last one), Cauterize and Megaflare Dive, also during Titan Ex's Sumo kick attack.

:D

I wish PLD was near perfect, but it's not. Probably won't be fixed until 4.0 since they seem to be doing the same thing they did to DRG in 2.x. Minor upgrades to try and make the job ok, but really is still avoided by groups looking for optimization.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Improved but not fixed, our TP will still hit the floor (now slightly slower) with no way to stop or fix it without halting DPS. We either need a TP restore, or an MP move that deals damage for the TP problem to be fixed, no amount of cost adjustments will fix it.

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Mostly agreed, but that last bit is absurd. Cut the costs to 0 and you... never run out of TP. Cut the costs even to 50 across the board on a 2.5 GCD and you will be permanently capped. Of course cost adjustments *can* fix it. They might not be the most creative way to do so, but they are the most straightforward. If Rage of Halone and Royal Authority were changed to 50 TP, you'd be a lot closer to DRK TP longevity (when said DRK isn't using enmity combo frequently).

As you said, a MP attack would help a bit to vary things up, much like DRK has Unmend, but keep in mind that this would then conflict with Oaths and Clemency as they are now.


To me the real issues are the neglected utility abilities, Tempered Will and Cover, and the still maximally clunky Oaths. Clemency itself has taken a fair hit from the tank AP reduction, while it still impossible to block while casting (even though our shields are clearly held in front of us for every cast animation). [Heck, if necessary to meet the next Shelltron timing, I can pop Shelltron early and simply cast to ignore the next 2-3 AAs and take the TB with Shelltron in the last couple seconds...]

I was personally of the opinion that Clemency was already useful... in normal content. And now its spot-support has been improved significantly. I can save more than just the MT now when healers are still up. But by the time Savage comes around, it really hasn't had a notable effect unless, again, healers were jailed or dead. The tank-wide AP debuff has since hit it hard. No more massive crits on Convalescence-Defiance Warriors to save the MT's day. No more securing threat more efficiently than Flash with a single large overheal on a mass-pull.

Cover is still short, slow, only half-effective (physical only), infrequent, and often a better means of suicide than protection. It is almost entirely limited to scripted gimmicks.

Tempered Will is still nearly useless and far too infrequent to warrant its cooldown. It's been placed on the same cooldown as a goddamn death-immunity... and it merely mimics one part of that skill with a side of 'breaks binds and heavies', without even making you immune to either. Immunity throughout, with an attached Surecast, and a two minute cooldown, would go a long way in making this ability worth something.

More than a gap-reduction, from 20% to 15% damage reduction on Shield Oath, what Shield Oath and Sword Oath needed was to figure out what they were actually designed for. At the moment, Sword Oath merely fits the part of a lesser, exclusive, and non-damaging Maim or AA-only Darkside (with double the initial MP cost in exchange for no MP drain, I guess). That is pathetic. Why does it consume a GCD, or alternatively, why does it deal no damage? Why does it cost MP? What possible excuse of flavor can uniquely make this one 'dps stance' have virtually no effect on enmity, AoEs, or DoTs that every other damage buff in this game enjoys? Why are both Oaths unbelievably plain (Sword Oath's uniqueness finding the one sole method to be more boring than a +15% damage buff)? Why have the latter's contribution vary with weapon speed?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Mostly agreed, but that last bit is absurd. Cut the costs to 0 and you... never run out of TP. Cut the costs even to 50 across the board on a 2.5 GCD and you will be permanently capped. Of course cost adjustments *can* fix it. They might not be the most creative way to do so, but they are the most straightforward. If Rage of Halone and Royal Authority were changed to 50 TP, you'd be a lot closer to DRK TP longevity (when said DRK isn't using enmity combo frequently).

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I was talking realistically, not literally with that statement. Of course if the TP cost is 0 then we will never run out of TP, in fact, if the combos TP cost is less than the amount it recovers, then we will also never run out of TP. That is why I went under the assumption that the devs would never make the combo do less than in recovered. The problem is that in a raid environment, if they make the adjustments soley to cost, then you make it so that PLD either never runs out of TP, or hits the floor at some point, there is no strategy, its either inevitability, or TP might as well not exist. These are not fixes, and that is what I meant. Also an MP attack would not conflict with oaths and clemency, im not sure why you say that.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I was talking realistically, not literally with that statement. Of course if the TP cost is 0 then we will never run out of TP, in fact, if the combos TP cost is less than the amount it recovers, then we will also never run out of TP. That is why I went under the assumption that the devs would never make the combo do less than in recovered. The problem is that in a raid environment, if they make the adjustments soley to cost, then you make it so that PLD either never runs out of TP, or hits the floor at some point, there is no strategy, its either inevitability, or TP might as well not exist. These are not fixes, and that is what I meant. Also an MP attack would not conflict with oaths and clemency, im not sure why you say that.

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1. Given that there's only one optimal place to use Invigorate, that Equilibrium generally has a greatly preferred stance choice in any given situation, and that Unmend does shit damage, there's not really any class that has this aspect of TP strategy that you seem to be looking for? As it stands, they're all inevitability. And if a Warrior has to pop Equil for healing before or during add phase, then it's a "oh shit" moment, and a diminished inevitability. There's no issue with PLD becoming the first to really manage its TP in interesting ways (if Stoneskin were faster or Clemency stronger, especially, it'd practically be the example of this TP management already), but there's no long line of precedence that PLD's trailing behind here.

2. Any TP adjustment other than reduced TP costs on weaponskills would have nearly identical results overall, without automatically being optomized, likely with unintended consequences. For instance, attaching a TP restore to blocks would flat-line OTs, attaching it to Shelltron would additionally further encourage on-CD usage, attaching it to Spirits Within would mean you have to chose between maximizing TP maintenance or actually silencing correctly and/or hitting for the full potency, and attaching it to Fight or Flight would mean that a 'jump' (enemies non-targetable) phase could not only cost you dps but also TP. Giving PLD an actual Invigorate means you hit it as soon as it won't cap, and then forget about it until it's ready again.

3. Anything that uses MP will conflict with other uses of MP. Try using two Clemency casts after having just blown your MP on this MP-attack. Conflict. Not a huge issue, at all, but it is necessarily a conflict. Moreover, it's probably not going to be the 'alternative' or means for TP management that you think it will be, unless its a weaponskill that is technically inferior to ever TP choice. In which case it also becomes an inevitability, same an Unmend. When all other choices are unavailable, use. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I don't understand why adding it to sheltron would be an issue, or perhaps add it to say... awareness (as a trait).

Your point with other tanks is true, they might hit the floor, but no other tank is in a situation where they just stand still and do nothing to regenerate the TP, why waste flash? its not doing anything if you have hate, WAR has equilibrium because they used to have this issue, and DRK has lots that it can do with MP that keeps them doing damage.

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It would be an issue because it adjusts priorities, or put otherwise, messes with existing gameplay. And it doesn't do so by making TP management a thing; it simply punishes your TP for holding onto your snap-mitigation for a coming tank-buster. That and it again requires MT position and physically attacking enemies. Adding it to Awareness has the same issue; now you're even less likely to maximize its mitigation opportunities because you desperately need it in order to keep up TP.

Upon running out of TP you can still shield someone the other tank for some 2.1k-2.8k, or heal for twice that in the time that you could Flash. It wouldn't be a tough argument to make that that's a better periodic opportunity than Unmend. Flash is also the only opportunity a TP-exhausted Warrior has (after blowing Del-Equil), the only difference being that it hits for more for them when in DPS stance, they can put out far fewer at a time, take much longer to regenerate their cost, and most will avoid equipping the spell altogether, at which point they have no such options at all.

Warrior didn't have TP issues unless AoEing. They were already greatly more TP-efficient than PLD by nature of their free Wrath weaponskills unless the Paladin had enough of an enmity lead to make heavy use of his Shield Swipe (a TP gain but only a 4% DPS gain and an enmity loss at the time). Equilibrium was more an increased opportunity for further AoE than it was a solution for inevitable TP exhaustion. As it stands, the only TP AoEer has the only TP restore. Makes sense.

DRK has only one mana alternative to TP weaponskills, Unmend. As they have no TP AoEs, Unleash is not an alternative.

There's certainly nothing wrong with the idea of adding a damaging mana-costing Weaponskill/Spell for PLD, but let's make sure we have the right reasons for its implementation?

Im really liking the feel of paladin now. The only thing i would change would be to Clemency.

Clemency.
If casted on yourself, 200 potency heal. *to offset the instant cast buff to not be horribly OP
If casted on others, standard 1000 potency heal. *slight nerf for it being useable more often
Give a buff on royal authority or replace str down on RoH, The next clemency is 50% mp cost and is instant/off gcd.

Frankly, I want to see paladins able to set themselves apart through means of skill. Being able to offheal while tanking and offtanking would provide interesting and unique gameplay.

To offset this utility, Drk could be a kind of debuffer, change delirium to put a debuff on the boss that heals you when you hit it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I don't understand why adding it to sheltron would be an issue, or perhaps add it to say... awareness (as a trait).

Your point with other tanks is true, they might hit the floor, but no other tank is in a situation where they just stand still and do nothing to regenate the TP, why waste flash? its not doing anything if you have hate, WAR has equilibrium because they used to have this issue, and DRK has lots that it can do with MP that keeps them doing damage.

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2. Tempered Will cool down is way too long. Any time I could use it and feel badass, I can't use it the next two times. For example, to stop the knockback on last boss in Neverreap. Who cares when I can't stop the next two knockbacks! >.<

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Tempered Will is extremely powerful and it's the only job that can negate a knockback for the mostpart. This allows the PLD to circumvent an otherwise lethal mechanic (Landslide comes to mind). If this could be used more frequently, it would allow more dodging of lethal mechanics. We don't want PLD to be immune to knockbacks.

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3) Why is PLD the only tank that has to burn GCD to switch stances? Isn't it already bad enough that

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DRK burns GCD when turning Grit on (but not off), the issue is their DPS stance can be stacked with their tank stance (but the penalty is on their MP). Sword Oath costs no resources to upkeep, unlike DRKs, but it needs to be toggled with their tank stance. So there's pros/cons to this.

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4) they have to wait til 40 for their tank stance?

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PLD has more damage mitigation at 30-40 than WAR and DRK do (they have a Shield etc). WAR has no real damage mitigation...Forsight is like -6% damage taken when you account for the defense boost...Defiance boosts HP but not damage mitigation. DRK has one cooldown up until 30, but has no Shield.

Burn me for thinking this, but I am not totally against flooring at 4 minutes, this is roughly half of most fights they seem to be kicking out, plus there are enough mechanics/jumps that seem to force natural down time. YES I get that there is a tank that doesn’t have to worry about this issue at all, and the other tank has more …. Edgy things to do when TP floored, but meh. I would honestly like to see it stretched maybe a bit further, but I personally like some flaws to be present. (and now like several others, spamming Clemency as TP management is not the answer)

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Originally Posted by Februs

Cover was completely ignored.

Tempered Will was completely ignored. The main problem with these two being that Pld is the ONLY tank job that has moves that they don't, and often can't, use. That's just plain stupid.

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Am I the only one who used “Tempered Will” during ThorEx out of spite?????? Every time I run my PLD out, I seem to press this skill with more venom and spewing disgust than any other skill in the game. Including the fishing ones…

I’d love to see Cover’s range improved, or to add magic damage (not both – cuz imperfections are fun). Course, when I heal, I get covered all the time, and yelled at by melee DD’s because I am standing in their way.

*****
I am going to jump on the bandwagon of keeping SwO on gcd and making ShO off gcd. This puts it as the opposite as DRK(balance). From here, I am not sure what more changes I think PLD needs without knowing SE’s plans for 4.0 and <potential> new skills. *******blinders should be put on here********

When comparing only the dps combos of PLD to DRK, the potency for PLD is higher by 140 (assuming 2 SE combos and 1 DE combo). Believe it or not, it’s a bigger difference in favor of PLD over WAR on this. (end blinders) Of course, we all know it’s the other buttons that DRK/WAR get to mash that do damage where PLD gets left high and dry, just under a 1500 potency difference in favor of DRK (making the total potency difference 1300 ish). This potency split is, frankly, to great a chasm to cross without a complete re-work of the class. I think it would be a little broken if the entire RA combo was juiced to a total of 1k potency AND the Goring combo was bumped by 600. There isn’t really an adjustment that could be made to SwO (beyond getting silly – and looking only at PLD dps ) that could bridge this gap either.

Now if SE decides to add new skills that are damage based for PLD in 4.0, major overhaul to today’s skills or stances c/would make the class ridiculously OP. Go ahead and hold your breath for that one though…..

I would still love to see SE push the class to a more “utility” tank. PLD already has the foundation, it just needs a little bit more, and there is one button I have in mind that could do it. My friend, Tempered Will. Change its name, and add 1 thing: “Increase target’s damage taken by x% for 10s”
Keep it on it’s silly 3 minute cooldown and give the party, I dunno, 15% bonus attack? (somebody maths for me, I’m all out on a Monday)

The class has the makings of being the humble servant of shield, it takes damage for others, it can heal others (now new and improved), give it the ability to INSPIRE others on the battle field. (This completes my childhood vision of what a Paladin is).

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Tempered Will is extremely powerful and it's the only job that can negate a knockback for the most part. This allows the PLD to circumvent an otherwise lethal mechanic (Landslide comes to mind). If this could be used more frequently, it would allow more dodging of lethal mechanics. We don't want PLD to be immune to knockbacks.

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This if flat out not true.

Firstly, If a move has an AoE cone, you should be dodging it, not negating it via a gimmick move. TW does not mitigate dmg, so eating a hit in the face that you could have dodged is plain silly (and will make your healers hate you for a long time). It can also screw with your party, because your Off Tank might not know that you activated it. If the OT sees you standing in a AoE cone, they could voke the boss from you because they think you're about to take a header off of a cliff. Any tank knows that unplanned vokes tend to cause more trouble then they avoid (in Titan Ex, for example, a voke like this could feed a Mountain Buster to your entire party), so this is not good.

Now, you might think that TW is a good "oh shit" move in case you were too sluggish to dodge, but that's not true either. Like Hallowed Ground, Tempered Will has a delayed effect. The status does not take effect until after the animation is done, so there's about a 1.5 second delay, meaning that you cannot use it as a last ditch effort to avoid getting punted. It has to be used in advance, in anticipation of the knock back, to guarantee success. If you do not have TW up by approximately 75% (depending on personal latency) of the boss's cast bar, or if TW is not up before the AoE indicators disappear, you will still get punted, regardless of what your status bar says.

Secondly (and this is the important bit), TW is not used to intentionally eat knock back mechanics. TW is used to maintain position. Any tank can tell you the importance of keeping a fixed point and not having to move. TW excels at this, that's true, but Pld's are not the only job who can do this.

Warriors can Holmgang a target for the same effect. It's on the same CD as TW (180 seconds) and it has the additional utility of making the War immune to death during it's duration. Drk's can execute a Plunge to re-position themselves instantly after a knock back and maintain optimal positioning. They don't get any additional effects from it (like removal of Heavy, or death immunity), but they do additional dmg and can use Plunge every 30 seconds. Meaning that a Drk can negate ever single knock back in a boss fight to maintain optimal positioning. Further, TW is exclusively used in knock back situations, whereas War's and Drk's can use Holmgang and Plunge in any fight they want and still gain utility out of them. By comparison, TW is WAY behind the curve.

PLD and DRK are both far from almost perfect. Let's look at what's still weak about each job and think about if it's a problem or not.

PLD:

1. Runs out of TP the fastest of the tanks
2. Weakest debuff with the highest cost to apply
3. Lacking in magical buffs
4. Low DPS, no burst
5. Support spells still cancel
6. No AoE on GCD

DRK:

1. Lacking in reliable physical buffs
2. DPS, self-healing, support all dependent on taking damage frequently
3. Highest penalty for hate generation

For PLD:

1. Extremely problematic because Paladins require TP for all their damage-dealing skills and ranged hate-generating skill; PLD is also the only tank that requires TP to stun.
2. PLD is the only tank that can't debuff both damage types and Halone is the most expensive of the debuff skills to keep up.
3. Mainly problematic when compared to WAR, would be less so if Stoneskin couldn't cancel and no. 2 was fixed IMO.
4. Extremely problematic despite the tank DPS nerf. Low burst also means low burst hate and even lower DPS in actual content.
5. This is mostly problematic because of numbers 2-4, otherwise it's fine if they're basically OT only skills.
6. This is problematic because on a trash pull a PLD stops contributing anything after Blind resist sets in (~10s). There should be an AoE skill that can be spammed, but too expensive to be sustained like a DRK can sustain Unleash so PLD have to still mix in Flashes or heals.

DRK:

1. This is mainly problematic compared to WAR. SE has kept magic damage a fair part of raid content so it's not a disadvantage compared to PLD.
2. This is problematic because DRK will either perform poorly as OT or be overpowered as MT for as long as this remains the case. I also think it's not a logical design for a tank, but that's a matter of opinion.
3. This is problematic mainly in comparison to WAR.

Other comments:

1. I personally think Divine Veil should also proc on "absorb" heals as well as spells. Right now the fairy can proc Divine Veil, but Synastry cannot and this would fix this problem. As a bonus, casting Clemency on a third party would also proc it with this change.

2. Dark Dance and Bulwark are way under-powered compared to Raw Intuition. They're not only unreliable, they also have a weaker average efficacy.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Burn me for thinking this, but I am not totally against flooring at 4 minutes ... I would honestly like to see it stretched maybe a bit further, but I personally like some flaws to be present.

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I'm striking the match ... Just kidding.

I am going to have to disagree with you, though (first time for everything, right?). Like you, I am totally okay with running out of Tp in 4 minutes. That's not the problem. The problem is that I have no way to manage my Tp. I don't want a perfect job. I want a functional one that requires thought, planning, and execution. In short, I want a little more depth out of my Pld.

The way things are now, when I run out of TP I'm forced to just sit there and go, "Welp ... Guess I'll just wait for the next TB to pretend to be useful." That's not good. Now, consider a slight hypothetical change in which Riot Blade provides Tp instead of Mp while in SwO. In this situation, instead of just accepting the fact that I ran dry and am helpless, I have a judgement call to make. Do I sacrifice defense in favour of Dps and Tp regeneration? Or do I turtle up and patiently wait it out? It's a choice. Making the correct decision requires forethought and knowledge of the boss mechanics. If I'm expecting a TB, for example, then it's best to wait. If I'm expecting adds to Tank, then it's best to wait. If not ... then maybe it's time to gamble. This is just one possible change they could have made that would have added some depth to the job, as well as justify any future increases to Skill Speed that Pld might see with upcoming gear/expansions.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Am I the only one who used “Tempered Will” during ThorEx out of spite?????? Every time I run my PLD out, I seem to press this skill with more venom and spewing disgust than any other skill in the game. Including the fishing ones…

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No, my friend. Like you, I use TW whenever I can. I even sometimes use it when I know that I don't have to and it has absolutely no use whatsoever, just because it's a button to press (#TankConfessions).

As for Sword Oath, my wishes for that Oath are not in how much dmg potential it possibly has. I'm more interested in how much uniqueness of play a Pld can get out of it, and how much it could do for the Pld's identity.

As it is, additional auto attack dmg is, quite frankly, uninspired (sorry, SE, but I call it like I see it). They clearly wanted to do something with the speed of the Pld's weapons, but didn't really know how to do anything meaningful with it. Auto attack dmg increase is fine, I guess, but a flat potency increase is silly and shows a tremendous lack of foresight. Not only does it not play off of any of Pld's current moves, it also leaves no room for working with future additions to the job. At one point, it did provide some measure of hope in that different styled swords could see increased returns from SwO, but they never really went anywhere with that either. In fact, they've been drifting away from this idea, because all of the swords in the game are slowly becoming uniform and homogenized. The same could almost be said for Pld's Oaths.

War's see different move paths open up to them depending on what stance they are in. Drk's see both different move sets and different attack effects, depending on what stance they're in (Darkside isn't a "stance" ... blah blah blah). Pld plays exactly the same regardless of what Oath they are in. Nothing changes, other than they don't suffer a dmg reduction. That is a very uninspired job design.

If SE wanted to actually do something meaningful to the Pld job, then they would divide the Oaths by the way that they were actually defined. Shield Oath would be all about the shield. Sword Oath would be all about the sword. This means that the Oath that is in greater need of a fix is actually Shield Oath, because we only have two shield abilities in our entire kit (shield swipe and shield bash), and neither of them are on a combo. That should never have happened. Shield Oath should have shield related mechanics, and Sword Oath should be about sword related mechanics. That way, when players are learning Pld, they can spend their time playing GLD learning their offensive kit and their time playing Pld learning their defensive kit. If they wanted to keep Pld dps lower (for some unknown and arbitrary reason), then they still could. They'd just have to adjust the Oaths as necessary (say, focusing on skill speed instead of potency).

an here i was thinking PLD got a great buff ,guess ppl are never happy.
its never gonna be perfect,none of the class will ever be.

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Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

an here i was thinking PLD got a great buff ,guess ppl are never happy.
its never gonna be perfect,none of the class will ever be.

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It did get great buffs, they improved the situation (mostly to balance the class with the global tank changes), but did not fix them completely. Its not that we are never happy, its just that tweaking a few numbers does not fix the fundamental core of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Oath swapping basically did not change. It doesn't cancel our combo anymore. Great. It still takes a turn of the GCD, meaning that the best time to use it is at the start of a combo (typically when FoF comes back around off of CD). Meaning the optimal way of using SwO is: Sword Oath > Fight or Flight > Fast blade ... notice that this usage does not interrupt our combo anyway? That's cuz' it doesn't. The optimal way of using Sword Oath never did. So this change is just window dressing.

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The best time to Oath swap would be Fast Blade > Sword Oath > Fight or Flight > Savage Blade.

EDIT: You will lose less hate if none at all performing this combo. Oath swapping this way lets PLD let loose a Goring Blade finisher with full damage ticks instead of that 15% reduced Goring blade damage tick.

Starting in Shield Oath: Fast Blade > Fight or Flight > Riot Blade > Sword Oath > Circle of Scorn > Goring Blade > Shield Oath.

Notice how you lose very little down time in the GCD between Sword Oath and your next GCD ability, making it better than what you are making it out to be.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

2. Dark Dance and Bulwark are way under-powered compared to Raw Intuition. They're not only unreliable, they also have a weaker average efficacy.

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Also could anyone explain why Bulwark has 180s recast while being 60% chance while DD is same 60% with way shorther recast? is it because block is potentially stronger than parry? Also Bulwark is pretty damn weaksauce and unreliable for bosses, atm it feels more like filler CD for singletarget fights.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

Starting in Shield Oath: Fast Blade > Fight or Flight > Riot Blade > Sword Oath > Circle of Scorn > Goring Blade > Shield Oath.

Notice how you lose very little down time in the GCD between Sword Oath and your next GCD ability, making it better than what you are making it out to be.

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I don't remember the exact maths, but at least last patch i read on here that in order to justify the loss of the gcds for the swap you would need to stay in sword for at least a few combos. swapping for one dot, even boosted is not going to make up the difference of losing 2 gcds. if you are swapping that fast, it would probably be more beneficial to simply drop shield and put it back up only incurring one gcd cost. Still doubt the math would make it worth it for such a short period

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Originally Posted by Synestra

is it because block is potentially stronger than parry?

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Probably. Also probably why Sheltron is one block only.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Also could anyone explain why Bulwark has 180s recast while being 60% chance while DD is same 60% with way shorther recast? is it because block is potentially stronger than parry? Also Bulwark is pretty damn weaksauce and unreliable for bosses, atm it feels more like filler CD for singletarget fights.

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Uh, probably because Dark Dance is 30% (Unless I missed a change at some point)

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Also could anyone explain why Bulwark has 180s recast while being 60% chance while DD is same 60% with way shorther recast? is it because block is potentially stronger than parry? Also Bulwark is pretty damn weaksauce and unreliable for bosses, atm it feels more like filler CD for singletarget fights.

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At the moment we're seeing blocks up to 33%? Might be lower after every pld moved to vit acc, but 33%+60% block rate on top of the already good block rate (so we're talking 70%upwards block minimum), means it's a viable defense against multi-hit physical tank busters.

Dark Dance is only a 30% chance increase to something with 20% damage reduction (and a low 7-8% base), which can have 20% evasion added on top (not good), meaning for physical multi-hit tank busters DRK's have to burn Shadowskin/Shadow Wall instead of say, bulwark.

Also because the dev's hate plds.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Uh, probably because Dark Dance is 30% (Unless I missed a change at some point)

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Aww shit my bad, remebered it wrong. But still i would like to see slight reduce on Blulwarks CD maybe 150 or 120 so you can always combine it with Awarness+Foresight, but if thats too much then they could reduce block % to 50% to compensate CD reduction. Also i would like to see Tempered Will as an 90-120s CD as its already pretty situational, its awesome when it works, makes add picking easier in last phase of seph ex for example.

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Originally Posted by Violette

At the moment we're seeing blocks up to 33%?

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Depends if its kite or tower shield, with thordans tower shield blocks were 28-29% and with kite it was around 23-24%. Both Bulwark and Shelltron are actually pretty good with towers as they have less block rate than kites, so you kinda gain more out from those skills when using tower shields.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Also could anyone explain why Bulwark has 180s recast while being 60% chance while DD is same 60% with way shorther recast? is it because block is potentially stronger than parry? Also Bulwark is pretty damn weaksauce and unreliable for bosses, atm it feels more like filler CD for singletarget fights.

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It's not just the fact that block is stronger than parry. It's also the fact that PLD is the only tank which has access to both. Even passively, PLD has an advantage over other tanks when it comes to physical mitigation, before you take into account factors like the unique str down debuff and Sheltron. Bulwark definitely has its uses against bosses - not all high damage moments in fights occur in the form of a singular tankbuster. Bulwark is great for softening up the rate of incoming damage, and by extension, facilitating stance dancing.

DD is an amazing skill, but I'd happily trade in the DA evasion element for a short duration physical damage reduction ability. That's the one thing that's really missing from our kit. The evasion is fun and gives a unique style to the class, but it also feels unreliable and doesn't have the best synergy with the parry part of the skill.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Aww shit my bad, remebered it wrong. But still i would like to see slight reduce on Blulwarks CD maybe 150 or 120 so you can always combine it with Awarness+Foresight, but if thats too much then they could reduce block % to 50% to compensate CD reduction. Also i would like to see Tempered Will as an 90-120s CD as its already pretty situational, its awesome when it works, makes add picking easier in last phase of seph ex for example.

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For Bulwark to be balanced with Raw Intuition, it should probably have a 90s recast considering it also has a shorter duration and doesn't give a bonus perk like RI gives Wrath (on top of, you know, being random). Then of course Dark Dance needs a buff to match, maybe increased to a 40% parry rate or even higher. That's crazy obviously; they should nerf Raw Intuition, but I doubt the devs have the courage to do it so we'll end up with something bizarre one way or the other (unbalanced like we have now, or stupid like a 50% parry buff up 1/3 of the time).

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Originally Posted by Violette

Might be lower after every pld moved to vit acc

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STR stopped affecting block/parry in 3.0. It's purely block rate/block strength on the shield now.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Bulwark definitely has its uses against bosses - not all high damage moments in fights occur in the form of a singular tankbuster.

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Yeah its good for "fluff" damage and its decent for that but if theres multiple adds that does physical damage it rocks, its just the recast that kinda ruins it imo. Its kinda PLD's signature skill as it involves shield so it would be nice to use it slightly more often.

Personally i love WAR CD's as not only they are multipurpose(defensive/offensive)but all of them have short to medium recast times, longest CD is 180 and its their "godmode" CD excatly same as Bulwark.

Where's my tower shield for this tier, SE? Low block power = go hit the showers. Low block rate = feelin' great.

Seriously though I don't like dropping Gordian for Sephirot just because of ilvl/stats. 22% or whatever can go suck a D. Bring back the beefy 30.

Regarding 3.2 paladin, I really wish they had made Clemency not interrupt combos. Also, it feels a lot weaker as a self heal than it did before 3.2 because our HP and boss damage went way up but Clemency stayed about the same, so it's healing a lot less of our HP percentage-wise. 2s cast is nice though. I haven't gotten beyond Midas 2 savage yet, but at least there and in 1 it's decently useful. Sephirot too.

Stance switching is better, but it'd be nice if Sword Oath had a short duration buff upon activation to help make up for the 0 potency GCD you spend switching into it.

It's nice that Veil had its cooldown reduced to something reasonable and I like that it gives a reason to sub Cure. It's also nice that the rebound heal from Divine Veil can trigger it. However, at this point, why does it even have activation requirements? I think they should possibly add something to this skill if future paladin improvements are required, like how it had a blocking component added in 1.0. Not saying that's what it needs, it's just an awkward skill right now. I think the only reason they put the heal requirement on it in the first place is because it was there in 1.0 and they didn't want to spend too much creative energy making paladin stuff.

Halone is still lackluster. It just doesn't feel like a vital part of the toolkit most of the time. A bit more useful in sword stance for hate/damage reduction, but it still feels crappy when you have to use it.

TP is going to continue to depend entirely on the fight. I don't see paladins having many problems with it for about 6 months because everything I've seen this tier has a lot of running around time not hitting the boss. Also, I'd like to see Cover's cooldown go down to like a minute because why not.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

Starting in Shield Oath: Fast Blade > Fight or Flight > Riot Blade > Sword Oath > Circle of Scorn > Goring Blade > Shield Oath. Notice how you lose very little down time in the GCD between Sword Oath and your next GCD ability, making it better than what you are making it out to be.

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Not quite. What you're suggesting assumes that the Pld swaps back instantly after they apply their DoT, but that is not optimal. To maximize their Dps, Pld's should be remaining in SwO for the entire duration of FoF (unless boss mechanics require otherwise). Swapping back immediately after applying Goring blade is actually a potency loss, because you are losing out on roughly 17 seconds of increased dmg output. For a full rotation of 30 seconds (FoF's CD timer), and assuming you are beginning your rotation with a FoF buff to your enmity, you're actually looking at using FoF at the beginning of a Goring Blade Combo to maximize potency. The rotation looks like this:

> SwO > FoF > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Royal Authority > Fast Blade > Savage Blade (FoF falls off here, at 20 seconds)> Royal Authority > Shield Oath (oGCD's are not included, because they are rotated in between GCD moves)

The reason it works out like this is because of the timing of a Pld's first use of Fight or Flight, which is typically used at the beginning of a Pld's enmity rotation to secure aggro. FoF's cooldown is 30 seconds. In that time, at a full 2.5 seconds, Pld's can use 12 GCD moves. That's four of their combos (2.5s x 3 =7.5s per combo. 7.5 x 4 = 30s). FoF will be back up just in time for the fifth combo. Meaning, to buff the entirety of a single Goring Blade combo and two consecutive Royal Authority combos, the Pld swaps oaths at the start of their GB rotation.

Circle of Scorn is not included in the rotation, because it's Cool down is actually 5 seconds faster than FoF, meaning that it's up one full combo in advance of FoF. A Pld could wait to pop it, but waiting 5 seconds to pop CoS every time FoF circles around will start to stack by the end of the fight, so it turns out to lose you more dps in the long run.

Enmity is also not an issue in this rotation. Pld's tend to use FoF at the start of their enmity rotation (Ie: Shield Lob > FoF > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > RoH > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Royal Authority / RoH depending on how much of a lead you need on enmity), thereby securing enmity at the start of the fight. Before 3.2, Pld's could hold enmity doing this no problem and were never at risk of losing hate when swapping to SwO during the duration of FoF. Given that enmity has been increased on both Shield Oath and Savage Blade post 3.2, Pld's should have even less trouble holding hate when doing this.

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Originally Posted by Februs

> SwO > FoF > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Royal Authority > Fast Blade > Savage Blade (FoF falls off here, at 20 seconds)> Royal Authority > Shield Oath (oGCD's are not included, because they are rotated in between GCD moves)

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FoF is 30s long post 28. You can fit 2 Goring Blade and 2 Royal Authority combos into one FoF. If you really want to get the most out of Stance Dancing you would use this rotation:

Fast Blade > SwO > FoF > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > FB > Savage Blade > Royal Authority > FB > SB > RA > FB > RB > GB > FB (FoF falls off around here) > ShO > SB > RA

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

FoF is 30s long post 28. You can fit 2 Goring Blade and 2 Royal Authority combos into one FoF. If you really want to get the most out of Stance Dancing you would use this rotation:

Fast Blade > SwO > FoF > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > FB > Savage Blade > Royal Authority > FB > SB > RA > FB > RB > GB > FB (FoF falls off around here) > ShO > SB > RA

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What this guy said. You can fit two of your most powerful skill into FoF. You're not doing right if you don't do it like this. This... might not necessarily apply for your high enmity opener, though.