Savage Clear rate being lower the Devs expected, good or a bad thing?

Hey all as some of you may know but the Clear Rate for Alexander Savage was lower than what the devs expected. Got my info from here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t....1-Information

But does this mean it's a bad or a good thing? I'd say depends on what type of person you are, for the good side of things it's nice to have something to work on for a good few months but the bad thing is that some people/statics have given up on it due to various reasons etc mainly just how hard the fight could be.

Maybe Make A1-3 kinda difficult but always make the Final Fight something hard to do.

Also they wanted to add a Easy medium and Hard version but really I think they should take out easy a.ka. Normal and give us a Medium and Hard version.
So just make normal a bit more harder to do.
Your thoughts?

The best for the game would be to have 3 difficulties, but as they said SE isn't willing to increase their team size. Statistically the best option is to keep Normal and create a Hard mode while removing Savage as that caters to less than 5% of the player base. The vocal minority will cause a shitstorm on here, but after a bit everything would return to normal.

A 3rd option is having both Normal and Hard come out in 3.2, and then Savage in 3.25 or 3.3.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

The best for the game would be to have 3 difficulties, but as they said SE isn't willing to increase their team size. Statistically the best option is to keep Normal and create a Hard mode while removing Savage as that caters to less than 5% of the player base. The vocal minority will cause a shitstorm on here, but after a bit everything would return to normal.

A 3rd option is having both Normal and Hard come out in 3.2, and then Savage in 3.25 or 3.3.

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I agree, I think the clear rates for savage is lower than 5%, I think it's sub 2k players. They should just return to the difficulty of coils with a story mode where all the story mode bosses are as hard as a4n and the last boss of hard mode would be a little easier than a3s.

Personally, I found WoW's decision to have half a million difficulty levels for their raids to be hilariously unnecessary if you have any desire to actually raid, and not simply doing it because "oh well, nothing else to do". That said, adding more difficulties would solve the problem of Savage being to hard (still laughable imo) but Normal being to easy, if they feel that is the reason the clear rate for Savage has been lower than expected.

Alexander 2 Hard - I guess the same difficulty as Coil was. Assuming it was easier/more interesting than Alexander 1. Provides gear needed to do Git Gud Mode without getting facerolled. Releases Patch 3.2

Alexander 2 Savage - Git Gud Mode. Best gear ever, using it you will could potentially faceroll Alexander 3 Hard. Releases Patch 3.2

Alexander 2 Normal - The Story Mode. Provides Void Ark level gear. (I guess?) Releases Patch 3.2.5 or 3.3.

Bad thing. If they even have to mention that, it becomes apparent to me that the developers do not know what they intend savage to be. They wanted savage to be something so hard and reminiscent of a previous difficulty tier (SCoB savage) that was only meant to appeal to the high-end 1% players, and and they then say that the current clear rates (which are reflective of that 1%) is lower than they expected? I don't know what to make of that or what they wanted the content to appeal to.

Between this, job performance/balance and what counts as the "dps tax" on MCH/BRD, I have the grasping idea that even the developers themselves aren't too sure of what they are saying versus their intentions.

It simply means they failed to properly balance the thing to match their expectations (or vice versa).

Balancing this kind of content thinking "we need X% of the player base to be able to do this" is very difficult to do, especially while testing internally. They probably only have one or two teams of test-players able to beat the bloody thing, so translating their feedback into the actual FFXIV playerbase is tricky.

It doesn't really mean that the playerbase is bad or worse than it was when FCoB came out, it just means that either their balancing or their expectation was wrong (might also be both).
They aren't disappointed by the skill level of their playerbase, they just failed to gauge it properly.

The answer isn't "it's a good thing" or "it's a bad thing". It's just irrelevant for us. It's SE's job to make content according to the playerbase, not the other way around.
So, from a player perspective, the correct answer to the title of this thread is just... "whatever".

I think that many who would try savage in the binding coil days don't want to for Alex because of the pressure of having to perform perfectly before they enter the instance. Many have said "screw it" and "I'll wait to out gear it" and (probably more likely) "I've seen normal and I'm not interested".

Really part of the issue is the lack of available people to join statics imho. I always see a large number of PFs statics looking for various jobs. And I'm actually in one of those that have struggled to literally get a solid 8th member sense really the beginning of Savage. We'll have someone for a couple weeks, and they'll be gone.I can't really say its due to their experience with our group. We do pretty good, but for the most part we are always retraining a 8th member. They aren't that good on their own, and we take the time to bring them in and teach them the ropes. Once we get them up to speed we are rocking through A1S easily, and A2S we keep making progress. But its very stressful when you are getting farther along, and your member either decides alex isn't for them, or they just do a no call no show forever. It just seems the amount of people in this game is so low, its very difficult to get someone interested. I wouldn't say its too difficult, at least not where we are. But I know A3S and A4S are a lot harder. But just like any content you can gradually get better at it, so long as you can keep learning. And not do what we do, and keep having to back track and retrain someone. Again it just seems its connected more with the overall population of the game. The content gap, seems to have created a huge void of players.

The problem also, it's A3S and A4S being (almost) on par with SCOB savage difficulty. That alone pretty much kills the mid-core groups. The hardcore are a minority. The 3 tiers difficulty is nnecessary, they should have Normal and Savage, but Savage should be like Coil-difficulty, instead. People complaining about Coil being too easy back in the day, are also a minority.

Maybe the medium tier difficulty could be savage mechanics with a lower DPS check. Once you get the mechanics down, then move onto Savage with the harsh DPS checks. Seems like a more natural flow.

I think squeenix has been overestimating the prowess of the playerbase. And that's what you get when most of the dungeon content is faceroll easy - if there's nothing to challenge the average player, the average player will have no reason to improve. Then comes Savage and beats the snot out of them the moment they step inside. No wonder players back away.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

Normal/Hard/Savage split

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I would argue for normal being story mode, granting gear just above dungeon token level (in this patch it could be a 185 above the 180 law stuff). An almost symbolic reward for experiencing the story.

Hard would subsequently yield gear that's stronger than whatever the capped tokens grant. I agree on the whole "between coil and savage" difficulty level.

Savage would be the GIT GUD mode, but only grant titles, mounts and glamour. It would be challenge for challenge's sake with cosmetic rewards only.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

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Don't go hating on us, we may be a "vocal minority" but we are all still loyal subscribers, I've really enjoyed the difficulty of Savage so far and I know quite a few others have too. Also a lot of the more casual/mc groups are getting close to clearing Savage now it's just taken a bit longer that the coils did, the clear numbers will probably substantially higher by the end of the year.

I don't really see why they can't do three versions, all they have to do is design the savage, nerf the fight a bit for hard mode then nerf the hard mode further for the story, they don't need to be massively different fights, they just have to relax the dps checks and make punishments for messing up mechanics less severe.

I, unfortunately was the only person wanting to try savage in my fc/static, and then I had a bit of a crisis irl, and was out for a month ony to come back to everyone aside from my best friend and my fiance having left my fc entirely, so now I'm pretty well stuck in a way that I havee no a1s exp so I can't go into most pf's for it, and have no friends that want to do it lol

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

Hey all as some of you may know but the Clear Rate for Alexander Savage was lower than what the devs expected. Got my info from here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t....1-Information

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This confirms what I've always said: this game is not a raid game. A very small minority want the hard core type raids. They got it and most people didn't do it, I bet even most of those that demanded it!

SE should not nerf savage, they should leave it there as it is as a reminder that the vast majority of the player base is NOT hardcore, progression raiders.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

Personally, I found WoW's decision to have half a million difficulty levels for their raids to be hilariously unnecessary if you have any desire to actually raid,.

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It's incredibly silly. Currently you have Raid Finder (story mode essentially), Normal, heroic, and Mythic. They even nerfed normal. In legion (the next expansion) they should remove normal mode.

My static broke up not because of the difficulty, but because of the monotony of SE raiding system. We already did 2 years of coil. Alex is just a repeat of coil. There is nothing new or interesting about it.

Other reasons of ditching raiding were class roles. Tanks were expected to gear for DPS and healers to an extent were to add to the DPS of the encounter. This was the case in Coil, and even more so in Alex.

We just said enough is enough. There is nothing new or interesting about Alex Savage. So a few members unsubbed, a couple took a break, some went with different groups or just gave up on raiding in the 3.x series.

I myself am unsure what the point of raiding is other than bragging rights. Everything is made irrelevant with each patch cycle.

Glamor is not end game. If SE ever decides to toss out vertical progression in favor of horizontal progression, widen the amount of selectable endgame content I'll reconsider raiding. Until that happens I'm getting off the treadmill.

Fighting server limitations as the main factor in fights kind of kills progression enthusiasm for most people.

This is why everyone hated Titan.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

Don't go hating on us, we may be a "vocal minority" but we are all still loyal subscribers, I've really enjoyed the difficulty of Savage so far and I know quite a few others have too. Also a lot of the more casual/mc groups are getting close to clearing Savage now it's just taken a bit longer that the coils did, the clear numbers will probably substantially higher by the end of the year.I don't really see why they can't do three versions, all they have to do is design the savage, nerf the fight a bit for hard mode then nerf the hard mode further for the story, they don't need to be massively different fights, they just have to relax the dps checks and make punishments for messing up mechanics less severe.

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Umm... No. The last stats we saw for a4s clears was under 2,000 characters. Things might be getting better locally on your server, but most servers only have 1-2 groups clearing a4s. The only way people are going to get a full savage clear at this point is either by getting better gear or the content is nerfed.

The SREX weapons will help a few groups per server, but we are not going to see clear rates reach above 1% of the player base until there are major nerfs or the content is majorly out geared.

I think they should keep 2 tiers and make normal more difficult. At least on par with Ravana and such.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I think they should keep 2 tiers and make normal more difficult. At least on par with Ravana and such.

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What? The clears for Savage aren't as projected so lets make Normal harder? That sounds alot like a 'hardcore raider' argument. The problem isn't Alexander Normal, the problem as was pointed out in this thread is how the 'hardcore raiders' don't want to help anyone they feel is 'not good'. I think Miscreant has the right of it, casual raiders (note the lack of 's there) are getting there, but given the lack of people willing to help them nail down strategies, it's taking a while. "But they can just watch a video, what's the hold up?" Because watching a video isn't learning the fight. It's just watching a video.

I have given up on end-game since FCoB. Statics and strict lock-outs are too much trouble to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one, so I'm not surprised NA player base clear rates are not 90%-100%.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

What? The clears for Savage aren't as projected so lets make Normal harder? That sounds alot like a 'hardcore raider' argument. The problem isn't Alexander Normal, the problem as was pointed out in this thread is how the 'hardcore raiders' don't want to help anyone they feel is 'not good'. I think Miscreant has the right of it, casual raiders (note the lack of 's there) are getting there, but given the lack of people willing to help them nail down strategies, it's taking a while. "But they can just watch a video, what's the hold up?" Because watching a video isn't learning the fight. It's just watching a video.

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Except the majority players aren't hardcore players. Making normal mode "harder" would address part of the problem where the midcore people have no appealing content because normal is too easy, while savage is too difficult. The thread you linked only addresses the state of PF and the lack of people clearing content, not necessarily the lack of people clearing savage (which as someone mentioned, is limited to 1-2 groups per realm on average).

My group is me and 7 other casual-to-midcore raiders. We grouped together with the intention of making a fairly lax approach to raiding with only three 3-hour raid days per week. Not a lot of time to raid, and certianly not enough time for retention when it comes to learning point-specific mecahnics. Having something like "people being more willing to teach" does not resolve the problem that we don't exactly have the people to teach in the first place. And this is applicable to most of the realms that have a relatively weak population (IE, not greg)

Should just scrap normal and adjust savage to coil difficulty.

Not because I hate casuals or something, but the point of normal was supposed to be to let everyone experience the story and the story this time around is garbage, so normal doesn't serve much of a purpose.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Except the majority players aren't hardcore players. Making normal mode "harder" would address part of the problem where the midcore people have no appealing content because normal is too easy, while savage is too difficult. The thread you linked only addresses the state of PF and the lack of people clearing content, not necessarily the lack of people clearing savage (which as someone mentioned, is limited to 1-2 groups per realm on average).

My group is me and 7 other casual-to-midcore raiders. We grouped together with the intention of making a fairly lax approach to raiding with only three 3-hour raid days per week. Not a lot of time to raid, and certainly not enough time for retention when it comes to learning point-specific mecahnics. Having something like "people being more willing to teach" does not resolve the problem that we don't exactly have the people to teach in the first place. And this is applicable to most of the realms that have a relatively weak population (IE, not greg)

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^ There you have it.

I would love to make a new static with casual and midcore. hardcores are free to join, as long as they don't RQ and willing to teach if needs to.

For me, this is the first time I stick to a game for more than a year. I'm in for the fun, my GF now joins me and she's having fun.

She loves challenges, so I can't wait to have more fun! ^^ FCoB, here we go!

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Originally Posted by Colorful

The best for the game would be to have 3 difficulties, but as they said SE isn't willing to increase their team size. Statistically the best option is to keep Normal and create a Hard mode while removing Savage as that caters to less than 5% of the player base. The vocal minority will cause a shitstorm on here, but after a bit everything would return to normal.

A 3rd option is having both Normal and Hard come out in 3.2, and then Savage in 3.25 or 3.3.

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95% of the game is catered to casuals. Why can't raids just be hard and then an even harder mode than that? You are basically saying there should be no hardcore content.

Let me get this straight: They make Alexander Savage, make the gear and DPS requirements astronomically high (at least for A3S and A4S) that realistically, only 5% of the player base will be able to surpass it. Then they turn around and are surprised the clear numbers are lower than they had anticipated.

I don't even know how to react to this.

How about they chuck Savage out the window, keep Alexander story mode, and make a raid that will appease both midcore and hardcore players. Don't even need 3 difficulties. Honestly, I feel like there was nothing wrong with how Coil did things. It just needed a story mode for people who couldn't dedicate the time to a static.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

95% of the game is catered to casuals. Why can't raids just be hard and then an even harder mode than that? You are basically saying there should be no hardcore content.

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Just a rough breakdown:

Savage Mode: savage, in it's current iteration, caters to less than 1% of the player base.
Hard Mode: Coil appealed to about 10% of the player base.
Easy Mode: alex normal, half of the active players have cleared it.

Obviously, it's an ideal situation to have all three, but if I am forced to pick two, I will go for Hard and Easy modes since it covers the largest % of the player base.

In my opinion this is bad. I feel like the development team isn't quite sure what they want to do with endgame. Crank dps req, but take dps away from 2 dps classes. Call them support but rarely are their support skills needed. That's just one example, making tanks and healers have to consider their dps, etc etc.

Honestly just the way they work their boss fights are laughable. It's all enrage lawl dps harder worth no fun or memorable mechanics to work with.

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Originally Posted by DragonSlayer45

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Or put less strain on the development team and just make Normal(FCoB level) > Savage. Just put echo buff on the normal content and make adjustments when it starts becoming outdated. The way SCoB did it is exactly how developers should approach it, except you know, put good gear in Savage. Yoshi-P said they do not have the man power currently to do three modes, so the obvious choice needs to be what I just said.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Just a rough breakdown:

Savage Mode: savage, in it's current iteration, caters to less than 1% of the player base.
Hard Mode: Coil appealed to about 10% of the player base.
Easy Mode: alex normal, half of the active players have cleared it.

Obviously, it's an ideal situation to have all three, but if I am forced to pick two, I will go for Hard and Easy modes since it covers the largest % of the player base.

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This is an example if thinking quantity over quality. Just because you made it more accessible and easier does not mean its good for the overall picture.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Should just scrap normal and adjust savage to coil difficulty.

Not because I hate casuals or something, but the point of normal was supposed to be to let everyone experience the story and the story this time around is garbage, so normal doesn't serve much of a purpose.

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Honestly, normal mode can accomplish just this given time and overgearing, if you take a look at the format of Coil. What savage intended (at least what I hoped they intended it to be) to be was that it's supposed to be hard, which doesn't necessarily tickle everyone's fancy. The problem that comes from nerfing savage mode is that it defeats the whole purpose of it's premise (it's supposed to be hard)

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Originally Posted by zosia

Just a rough breakdown:

Savage Mode: savage, in it's current iteration, caters to less than 1% of the player base.
Hard Mode: Coil appealed to about 10% of the player base.
Easy Mode: alex normal, half of the active players have cleared it.

Obviously, it's an ideal situation to have all three, but if I am forced to pick two, I will go for Hard and Easy modes since it covers the largest % of the player base.

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I wouldn't consider coil to be the "hard" mode once echo was add, and especially when you start getting gear from outside of coil (such as WoD and archmagus weekly). Coil itself becomes easier as time passes (with the exception of SCoB, where it had to be mechanically changed to be DF-able). I mean even if it's "clearable by the majority", said majority probably aren't playing the game anymore because savage does not appeal to them due to the lack of scaling difficulty.

It's not the difficulty of it that's the problem. The problem is why would players be motivated to do it when the content was already completed in Alex normal. It doesn't make sense. For the weapon. For what? To be over powered in casual content for a couple months until the next raid? Not worth it. Not to mention animus weapons will probably be BIS anyway .

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Yoshi-P said they do not have the man power currently to do three modes, so the obvious choice needs to be what I just said.

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Even though I do not wish for 3 modes, the "lack of man power" excuse is getting kind of old at this point, especially when you're a big company like Square Enix. A part of me is still hopeful with XI ending soon that they will grab the remaining developmental staff on that game and put them to work in XIV.

I can understand when ARR first launched since Square was taking a risk in reviving a game that received a widespread negative reception when many other companies would have just let it die out. However, two years later and with the game as big as it is now, there is no excuse for the small dev team anymore.

Could the (over)usage of instakills and hard enrages be part of the issue?

I haven't exactly touched savage, been mostly doing normal because my static is still looking for that elusive 8th. But there does seem to be an issue with how many times people are willing to go through the raiding process repeatedly. Going through the same fight over and over, some members start losing morale.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I think Miscreant has the right of it, casual raiders (note the lack of 's there) are getting there, but given the lack of people willing to help them nail down strategies, it's taking a while. "But they can just watch a video, what's the hold up?" Because watching a video isn't learning the fight. It's just watching a video.

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Sorry I didn't mean to give that impression, but I was more referring to the groups who can't raid frequently enough to be hardcore, which is the larger portion of the raiders. Quite a few groups groups have cleared A3 recently on my server and are working on A4 now, I imagine quite a lot of them will probably get it before the year is over which is well before 3.2. I don't understand the being taught aspect of Savage though you teach your self by observing what is going on, reading up and discussing mechanics with your party. This raid is harder than the Coils were, but all that really matters is clearing it before 3.2 so that you can move onto the next.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Umm... No. The last stats we saw for a4s clears was under 2,000 characters. Things might be getting better locally on your server, but most servers only have 1-2 groups clearing a4s. The only way people are going to get a full savage clear at this point is either by getting better gear or the content is nerfed.

The SREX weapons will help a few groups per server, but we are not going to see clear rates reach above 1% of the player base until there are major nerfs or the content is majorly out geared.

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I'm not from a hc raiding server and we have at least 5 groups who have cleared it and quite a few working on the last floor, plenty of groups will clear it eventually, still another 3-5 months until 3.2

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Originally Posted by DragonSlayer45

Even though I do not wish for 3 modes, the "lack of man power" excuse is getting kind of old at this point, especially when you're a big company like Square Enix. A part of me is still hopeful with XI ending soon that they will grab the remaining developmental staff on that game and put them to work in XIV.
I can understand when ARR first launched since Square was taking a risk in reviving a game that received a widespread negative reception when many other companies would have just let it die out. However, two years later and with the game as big as it is now, there is no excuse for the small dev team anymore.

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I still get extremely frustrated with the dev team at times. I feel like they make some really weird choices (Lets make alex savage really hard.... we are surprised it ha such low clear rates), but I have gained a greater appreciation for the Dev teams budget.

SE, the company, is siphoning money this game, which is par for the course with any game company. However, SE the company is not pouring resources back into this game as much as they should be. I think the dev team is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They know that the players want and expect more and the dev team wants to deliver (I hope), but the CEO and who ever holds the purse strings is not giving Yoshida and his team the funding that is warranted.

I am still frustrated with design choices the team makes, but they have gained my sympathy to any budget or manpower excuse. If you want to be angry about server limits or them being understaffed, that anger is best directed at who ever calls the shots at SE HQ.

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Originally Posted by Zenji

It's not the difficulty of it that's the problem. The problem is why would players be motivated to do it when the content was already completed in Alex normal. It doesn't make sense. For the weapon. For what? To be over powered in casual content for a couple months until the next raid? Not worth it. Not to mention animus weapons will probably be BIS anyway .

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Those people weren't the target audience for Savage.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

95% of the game is catered to casuals. Why can't raids just be hard and then an even harder mode than that? You are basically saying there should be no hardcore content.

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The game is 95% faceroll. If they made it start off faceroll then get slowly harder as you play progressively it wouldn't be such an issue. However when you have almost an entire game that is casual then throw ONE part that is SUPER HARDCORE! =O You understand what kind of issues that may bring?

NA Players are all about consistancy.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Those people weren't the target audience for Savage.

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Everquest II got through this by making content and raids where the first bosses started off easier then got progressively harder as you get through the zone. This allowed people to gear up a bit on the easier parts of the zone and still see it all and get the story. It also meant that they only needed to design one zone instead of 10.

If they were truley aiming for the 5%, then .. well the development was kind of a waste of time. The 5% already cleared it and are bored now because there is so little to do.

Shard of Hate is a good example of this. It was still a hard zone and groups still wiped on the first few bosses because of how unique their mechanics were. Enemies inside the zone also respawned so if you didn't kill a boss fast enough you had to deal with adds.

The last boss in Shard of Hate, only a few guilds could kill him. However, the items he dropped were astounding.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

I'm not from a hc raiding server and we have at least 5 groups who have cleared it and quite a few working on the last floor, plenty of groups will clear it eventually, still another 3-5 months until 3.2

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http://xivsoul.com/

Your server is 7th population wise. It has over 200,000 (rounded down from 225,000 players to account for alts) players on it. If what you are saying is true, and you have 5 groups clearing a4s, that's 40 people. Right now, your server population shows a 0.02% clear rate for savage.

You are playing on one of the best servers and even if we take this argument to extreme lengths, such as assuming out of 225,000 players, only 50,000 have ever played at the level cap, thats still a meager 0.08% of your server population has cleared savage.

I am even willing to take this to an extreme saying that out of those 225,000 characters, only 30k play at the level cap. That's still only 0.13% of your server population has cleared savage and you play on one of the highest populated served.

Even if only 20k characters on your server played at the max level, that's still a 0.2% clear rate. If that number quintupled over the next three months, you would be at a whopping 1% clear rate for your server population.

On one of the best servers, with the most conservative estimates and assuming that clear rates will increase by multiplicative factor of 5, you will see a 1% clear rate among the population by 3.2. The numbers simply don't reflect well on alex savage's sustainability,

The reality is that you are seeing the best of the situation being on such a highly populated server, and even the best situation still leaves you with clear rates well under 1%

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Originally Posted by zosia

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Even though my server is big it's not the most raid orientated, both Ragnarok and Odin are the raiding servers for the EU and I'm sure both have quite a few more teams who have cleared Savage.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

Even though my server is big it's not the most raid orientated, both Ragnarok and Odin are the raiding servers for the EU and I'm sure both have quite a few more teams who have cleared Savage.

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I doubt that they are seeing triple digit clear rates, You could take that 40 men on your server, adjust it for a "raiding" server, and you would still see sub 1% clear rates.

The only real raid content in the game should have never been catered to such a small minority. Coil was fine and it looks like we ill be going back to something similar, something that appeals to a much larger raiding audience.

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Originally Posted by zosia

I doubt that they are seeing triple digit clear rates, You could take that 40 men on your server, adjust it for a "raiding" server, and you would still see sub 1% clear rates.

The only real raid content in the game should have never been catered to such a small minority. Coil was fine and it looks like we ill be going back to something similar, something that appeals to a much larger raiding audience.

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May I ask why -one- raid/dungeon in this game has to cater specifically to the casual market? Why shouldn't there be content for the best of the best? The 1% excuse is not viable. With that logic, no MMO's should have really hard end game raids.