Hello there, fellow summoners.
It's been nearly two years since I've started a thread on these forums, and funnily enough it's with regards to the same subject matter. It’s been a little more than a month since release. More and more summoners are reaching level 60, mastering our new tool kit, and developing a feel for what's great, and what's not so great about the new and improved summoner.
There have been a number of great changes for summoner, but I'd like to think there's always room for improvement. As the game continues to receive updates, a job cannot remain stagnant. And after giving it much thought, I decided to create a new feedback thread for arcanists and summoners to start thinking about how we’d like to see the job improved moving forward to 4.0 and beyond.
Before we get started, I'd like to make one request of all those who come here to post, as I did in my last thread:
Please keep discussion civil, and be respectful to your fellow posters.
This thread is for feedback. There are no trolls, white knights, black knights, derps, etc. here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's okay to disagree, but please no attacking or provocative language. If you see a response to your post that seems to be inviting unnecessary arguing, I strongly urge you to ignore it. If you see a post whose ideas seem absolutely preposterous, and you can’t come up with a civil way to respond to it, I strongly urge you to ignore it.
With that said, I'd like to offer up a few points mostly concerning the Egi, and their relation to the summoner. Warning: Lots of text.
Aesthetics
The appearance of the Egi has always been a point of contention even as far back as the beta test when the job was first revealed. There have been myriad suggestions for how to address the issue (for those that consider it to be one). There are also, unfortunately, certain presumptions commonly made when someone suggests changing their appearance. Such as:
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I can't speak on behalf of anyone other than myself, but I would like to make clear that I am not asking for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5IxbwAyzK4
Nor am I asking for this.
I would even go so far as to say this is still too much.
So what am I asking for? Well, I'm no graphics design wizard, so I can't whip up an amazing photoshop example, but let's start with the benchmark for Heavensward.
Although that model still seems admittedly too large for practical use (in my opinion), upon seeing this image, many players were excited, convinced that the Egi—or at the very least, Ifrit-Egi—were going to be made larger. If anything, I would take this as proof that it can be done. After playing the game and leveling to 60, however, it's plain to see this supposed change was not true.
(I'm personally of the belief that they increased its size in the trailer for promotional purposes, but that's a horse of a different color.)
A personal gripe that I've had with the Egi as they are now, is not necessarily their lack of detail, but the wasted space their design creates. Take a look at the image below.
My character is just a lalafell, but that model is the tallest lalafell possible, and the character is still able to fit entirely under Ifrit-Egi. That's a lot of retail space that could have been put toward a model, possibly with more detail.
This next image better sums up what I would have considered closer to ideal in terms of size. I take no credit for its creation, as it was put together by another forum goer during the 2.0 beta.
Scaling the Egi up slightly, and setting it to float lower to the ground would solve some of the matter regarding wasted retail space, and would at the very least make it less of an obstruction in a party setting. In short, I personally believe something closer in size to a hyur model (NOT a fully sized primal) rather than a lalafell model would have been ideal.
I'd like to also mention that changes of this nature are not without precedent. Although it happened in the previous iteration of this game, the 1.16 patch in March 2011 increased the size of monsters in the world because people were disatisfied with their appearance. The following month, patch 1.17 increased the size of spell and action effects.
As for detail? Well, with the glamour system coming there's no telling what they will do, but if I had to make a suggestion, I would look no further than The Navel.
Bear in mind this isn't in regard to their size, but their detail. Their coloring seems closer to that of Titan, and they have a more gritty, earthy feel to them, which I personally think is more aesthethically pleasing.
There's no telling what will happen with the glamour system. However, if they plan on adding more than just carbuncle skins, I suppose now is as good a time as any to give the developers ideas, within reason.
Egi Actions and Mechanics
Now we've reached the nitty gritty of my post—the Egi and what they bring to the table. Before I begin, I'd like to make clear that, while I have always been a proponent of making meaningful changes to the Egi, I am not in favor of a system akin to Final Fantasy 11 where the summon does all of the work, or any previous iteration of Final Fantasy where the party stands back for a five minute cutscene, eating popcorn while a deity of unfathomable power lays waste to the squirrels of Black Shroud. I also do not see a need for more pets.
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A few excerpts from the myriad back and forth discussions on the subject of summoner around these forums, but I feel the encompass my thoughts on how the Egi function in tandem with the player. Or rather, how they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
The summoner itself is in a good place right now with the addition of the skills gained after level 50. The Egi, while they did receive a number of much needed adjustments (receiving the effect of foods and potions, accuracy changes, etc.), I feel their ability to compliment the summoner has been neglected. After hearing that they intend to take summoner in a different direction, one that focuses on abilities given to the caster and not the pet, I wonder how far they will go to sweep pets under the carpet and retune summoner in coming updates and expansions.
But let's say, hypothetically, they want to give the Egi a little love in 4.0. What can be done to improve the quality of pets? I imagine they would need to do at least two things:
1. Give the Egi more specialized roles (not necessarily adding more Egi).
2. Improve the ease with which we can switch between Egi in a given encounter.
Please note that none of the ideas I suggest here are to say, "I want these changes right now!!!" But if there comes a time for Egi to have serious adjustments, these are things I think would make things more interesting.
Defining Egi Roles
So let's take a look at the Egi as they are now, and how their roles could be defined a bit more.
Titan-Egi
+ Higher HP than other Egi.
+ Two attacks with increased enmity to take hate.
+ Has one cooldown to increase defense against enemies.
- Has difficulty taking hate when summoned mid-combat.
- Has difficulty keeping hate on multiple targets taking area damage.
Titan is obviously meant to be the meat shield of the three pets. When used at the start of a fight, it's quite easy for Titan to keep hate on a single target using its two enmity building attacks. However, its inability to quickly take hate mid-combat, or to hold hate on multiple targets would lead me to suggest adjusting Titan to specialize in keeping the attention of a single target.
Suggested Skill Adjustments
・Change Mountain Buster from a weak area attack to a provoke skill.
Mountain Call
Gesture threateningly, maximizing enmity in target.
Recast: 60s
・Add increased enmity to Landslide, maintaining two attacks with increased enmity.
Landslide
Deals earth damage with a potency of 70.
Additional Effect: Stun
Additional Effect: Increased enmity
Recast: 40s
Naturally, Titan's stats would need to be adjusted in such a way that, while it can reliably take the attention of a single target, it's not desirable to the point where it can replace an actual tank for prolonged periods in a party (e.g. tanking Ramuh Extreme). As summoners continue to grow in strength, more reliable single target enmity would also help when soloing for those rare occasions where you burst enough to take hate away from Titan. These are by no means simple adjustments, but they would go a long way to making Titan a more specialized tanking pet.
Garuda-Egi
+Attacks from a distance.
+Has an area attack that's relatlively easier to target with than Ifrit's (although their radius is the same)
+Can increase the duration of Bio, Bio II, and Miasma by 15 seconds.
-Has a knockback attack that can become bothersome in party play.
Garuda is usually the go-to Egi when dealing with groups of trash mobs, with its easy to target Aerial Slash and contagion to extend the duration of DoTs to be used in conjunction with Bane. I honestly have no real qualms with the way Garuda functions save for its Shockwave skill (knockback). Not only is the cooldown incredibly long, but knocking back an enemy is generally disruptive to party play, even if there is benefit to interrupting an enemy attack. How can we adjust this one flaw in an otherwise good Egi? I was scratching my head on this for the longest time, but then an answer dawned on me, and Neverreap confirmed that it can be done. If we want Garuda to interrupt enemies, do they have to be knocked back?
Suggested Skill Adjustment
・Change Shockwave from knockback to knockup and reduce the recast time.
Shockwave
Deals wind damage with a potency of 50 (reduced from 90).
Additional Effect: Knock-Up
Recast: 60s (reduced from 90)
In this example, I opted to reduce the potency of Shockwave in the spirit of making the Egi more specialized. Since Garuda lends itself to helping with area damage, it's only fair that it's single target attack is meant more so to support than to be offensive. Nevertheless, changing the knockback to knockup would allow players to dust off this skill and use it more often in the same manner that players use stun.
Ifrit-Egi
+Attacks at melee range.
+Radiant shield now helps the party reflect physical damage.
-Has trouble keeping up with mobile targets.
-More prone to taking area damage than garuda (i.e. cleaves and point blank area attacks around the target)
While its role as the go-to Egi for single targets is refuted by some, I think it's fair to say that with Garuda being a clear winner for assisting with area damage, Ifrit should excel at single target damage. Furthermore, it would help to give Ifrit a way to overcome its difficulty in following mobile targets.
Suggested Skill Adjustment
・Adjust Crimson Cyclone to become a gap closer for Ifrit.
Crimson Cyclone
Rushes target and delivers an attack with a potency of 105.
Range: 20y (increased from 3y)
Additional Effect: Stun (unchanged)
Recast: 40s (unchanged)
・Change Flaming Crush to a potent single target ability.
Flaming Crush
Delivers an attack with a potency of 105.
Additional Effect: Sears the flesh of enemies infected by Bio, Bio II, and Miasma, dealing additional damage with a potency of 95 for each effect.
Recast: 60s (changed from 30s)
As always, these are just personal opinions and ideas, but I think a gap closer akin to monk's Shoulder Tackle would greatly improve Ifrit's ability to keep up with enemies, which is the reason for my suggested change Crimson Cyclone. Flaming Crush, however, is an idea that came to mind based on Garuda's Contagion ability. As many of you already know, Contagion increases the duration of Bio, Bio II, and Miasma on an enemy by 15 seconds. With the server checking these statuses for damage every three seconds, this gives an extra 200 potency to Bio, 100 potency to Miasma, and 175 potency to Bio II, resulting in an extra 375 potency over the course of 15 seconds. Damage over time is summoner's forte, but there comes a time when you need damage "right now." In the case of a single target, it seemed fitting to essentially give Ifrit the inverse of Contagion. Of course, it would be strange to have an attack that potentially does no damage, so I left the base of 105 as is. With Bio, Bio II, and Miasma on a target, however, Ifrit would deliver an attack with 375 potency, essentially making Flaming Crush a frontloaded Contagion.
Earlier I mentioned it would also be beneficial to have a way to easily switch between Egi during a given encounter. As I’m sure they’re not going to change any of our current skills (I’m looking at you, Tri-Bind), I’d like to suggest a new skill that could be introduced in 4.0.
Primal Calling
Summon, Summon II, or Summon III can be cast immediately at reduced cost.
Cast: Instant
Recast: 30s
The utility of this skill is pretty self-explanatory. Having the ability to switch between Egi without taking a serious hit to MP could potentially allow for more interesting gameplay, depending on how Egi are changed in the future, if they’re changed at all.
4.0 and Beyond: The Future of the Egi
To wrap up my ramblings on the Egi, I'd like to consider the possibility of new Egi actions (note: not new Egi, just actions). The suggestions above, or anything remotely like them, are not something I would expect to see prior to the next expansion. With that said, one cannot help but wonder what will become of the Egi in light of Yoshi-P's statements on the direction they want to take summoner. That being, that it would be more interesting in the long run if they fleshed out the actions of the caster rather than add new Egi.
I'm going to make the assumption, if only for a moment, that in some strange fantastical bizarro universe they decide to add on to the Egi in some fashion. A number of players (not necessary some invisible majority or minority) were convinced that the Egi would receive new abilities in 3.0, and unfortunately that was not the case. While I was not surprised at the lack of new abilities for the Egi, it is my belief that, with the current system, it isn't possible to add new Egi abilities that function like Flaming Crush, Contagion, Mountain Buster, etc. The reason for this is the use of the Pet Hotbar.
http://i.imgur.com/gv543Rd.jpg
While it is possible to make a customized hotbar with pet actions on them, the actual pet hotbar is very limited. The actions and commands on it cannot be rearranged. Furthermore, all pet actions are on a shared cooldown. The only exception to this is the trademark skill of the Egi triggered by Enkindle, but even those all share Enkindle's cooldown. These trademark skills cannot be activated directly, but Inferno, Aerial Blast, and Earthen Fury can all be found within the Pet tab of the Actions & Traits menu.
If we are to see new Egi actions, I believe one of two things needs to happen:
A. Any new Egi skills introduced must have an intermediary skill (e.g. Enkindle) to activate them.
B. The Pet Hotbar needs to be revamped to allow some degree of customization.
Adding actions via option A is pretty straightforward, so I'd like to share a few thoughts on hypothetical option B. I think revamping the hotbar would allow for more interesting play in the long run. As I said earlier, I'm no photoshop wizard, but I do have a knack for powerpoint.
Imagine, if you will, that the Pet tab of the Actions & Traits menu was divided up into sections like so:
General Pet Actions
- Here you would find the auto attack for each Egi, and possibly their basic commands (e.g. Sic, Obey, Away, Place, etc.)
Additional Pet Actions 2, 3, and 4:
- In these subsequent sections, you would find a list of actions for all Egi that would have to share cooldowns within each category as they do now.
Additional Pet Actions 2, 3, and 4:
Using Garuda-Egi as an example, let’s say it receives three new non-auto attack actions, giving it a total of seven: Auto-Attack, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2.
The goal here is to let players choose which Garuda-Egi skill from each category of actions they want to use. The result is several possible combinations of actions.
Auto-Attack, B1, C2, D1
Auto-Attack, B1, C1, D2
Auto-Attack, B2, C1, D2
I think the idea here is pretty clear.
This setup is under the assumption that the developers would find it too unbalanced to change the shared cooldown. As new Egi skills are introduced, players would have to choose three skills—one from category 2, 3, and 4—to customize their Egi. If they're adamant about keeping the hotbar as it is, this would at least help us circumvent the restriction of the pet hotbar to a small degree, while also offering players a bit more customization with the Egi.
While still on the topic of customization, I must mention one last pipe dream: the ability to choose which skills are and are not used when using the Sic command. With pets as they currently are, for example, it would be a boon if you could set Ifrit to not use Radiant Shield unless instructed to manually, while still using its other attacks as soon as they’re available.
Summoner Actions and Traits
This section will be brief since, honestly, I think the way summoner performs is pretty perfect as it is.
The only thing I would consider adjusting, if anything, is the duration of the Aethertrail Attunement effect. This is purely with regards to playing through dungeons, but nobody is perfect, and there may come a time where it's not possible to stack up three Aethertrail Attunement to blow through Dreadwyrm Trance and Deathflare before a group of enemies are defeated and you move to the next group. Or perhaps you’d rather save it for the next group.
My only suggestion would be to adjust the duration of this effect, as removing the timer would likely be too overpowered.
I had other ideas, but if I had spent too much time pondering them this post would never make its way to the interwebs.
Feel free to pick apart my ideas, or supply some of your own and we’ll get the ball rolling. If you know of any bugs, or anything that doesn’t seem to be working as intended, feel free to add it and I’ll update this post. Hopefully we can give the developers some good feedback to improve on summoner in the future. :)
Miscellaneous Summoner Issues
・An issue wherein Enkindle “misfires,” wasting the three-minute cooldown.
・An issue wherein DoTs do not display when more than thirty status effects are placed on an enemy. This can also happen when “Display only detrimental effects you inflict.” is enabled.
Unconfirmed Issues
・Stat scaling with the Egi. (I’ve heard there is an issue with scholar fairies.)
Useful References / Discussion Threads
Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide
The 3.0 Summoner - An Extensive Guide by Hai Hai (Reddit)
Original Thread (English): (Un)Official Arcanist/Summmoner Feedback Thread
Original Thread (Japanese): 召喚士に関するフィードバックを書くスレ
(Un)Official Summoner Feedback Thread [3.0 Edition]
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07-26-2015, 11:35 PMSpellbinder(Un)Official Summoner Feedback Thread [3.0 Edition]
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07-27-2015, 12:46 AMMinorinz
I'm honestly happy they didn't add new summons just yet. Having to parse with like 5 pets is nuts, also rip muscle memory with each pet. I don't know how messy it'll get with the new summons (in 4.0?) I'm feeling a little excited and overwhelmed at the same time. The one thing I would wish for is to add a support type pet and make us able to summon 2 pets at the same time, like add a CD that enables you to summon another pet for 2 mins. That would be the coolest thing ever.
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07-27-2015, 01:26 AMSoloWingMetatronThis is a well thought and comprehensive post and I think it sums up well the kind of changes I personally would like to see in SMN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellbinder
Egi : Game Play
It's funny I was actually looking at Youtube vids of FFXI's SMN the other day, for nostalgia's sake. But I came across a series of two videos that showcased the Avatars and how they played. I will include a link below:
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qfP2D7ApoI
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pPiYth8DwE
What I found interesting about these vids is that it shows that actually the Avatars and Egi work/play in a similar way. Both Egi and Avatar attack on auto, and both also utilize the same signature moves; XI's Ifrit has Inferno, Flaming Crush, Burning Strike. Just like his XIV counterpart. XI's Garuda and Titan also share numerous abilities with their XIV counterparts. Furthermore if the Egi are put on obey then the SMN has full control over these abilities just like in XI.
The only difference between the Avatars and the Egi, is that the Avatars also had support abilities such as slow and haste, as well as BLM abilities such as Fire II, Stone II, Aero II/IV. However notice in the vids how the SMN just stands there the entire time whilst the Avatar does everything. So from this we could argue that for XIV's SMN, SE opted to remove the additional abilities of the Avatars (Slow, Haste, BLM spells) in order to give SMN the DoT's and other abilities, allowing them to have a more dynamic role in XIV.
In short, I think these vids show that the Avatars/Egi are not all that different from each other. Also notice how the Avatar's 2hour ability (AKA Enkindle) is no more flashier than the Egi Enkindle. Personally I think at the moment, what really needs to be changed about the Egi game play, is the A.I and how unresponsive they currently are when on obey. Of course totally new Egi abilities in the future would be awesome, however right now I would rather the Egi be more responsive.
Egi : Visual Design
As far as the Egi design goes, I think your post summed that up pretty well.
Personally I think the concept behind the visual is good, but the execution was poor due to rushed models.
Ifrit:
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...egi_front1.jpg
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...-egi_side1.jpg
It is clear that Ifrit was given the most attention during development. His model is actually rather nice as it represents the Primal really well, replicating a number of icons, such as the horns, spiked chin, shoulder horns/spikes, and the over all silhouette. Not only that but his arms are fully formed and articulated.
Titan:
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...egi_front1.jpg
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...-egi_side1.jpg
Now when we look at Titan, although he is identifiable as Titan by replicating icons such as the top knot. The model itself is clearly very rushed and rough around the edges (excuse the pun) Notice how the arms are not fully formed. Even the hands do not have individual digits and look like oven gloves (unlike Ifrit). Even Titan's head is underdeveloped, being nothing more than a simple bump with two slots for eyes.
Garuda:
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...egi_front1.jpg
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...-egi_side1.jpg
Garuda is an interesting one though because as a separate model it is actually rather nice. It is a strong design of a pretty green bird. However it is a rather poor representation of the Primal, as it bears little resemblance. She should have had more humanoid features.
I think really what the Egi need, specifically Titan and Garuda are a redesign. They need more polished well defined models, that represent the Primal well. Of course they can never be as detailed as the Primals, as the allocated poly count between the Egi and Primals is vastly different. The Egi on average will have around a maximum poly count of 1k to 2k. Where as the Primals will have a poly count of around 20k to 30k. So for this reason alone the Egi design will always have to be simplified down. I do agree that there is room for the Egi to be slightly larger, especially if their center of gravity was lowered as you suggested. -
07-27-2015, 03:48 AMAkiza
SE needs to remove the DoTs from the Summoner since they have never been connected with DoTs and posioning spell line that would be a Necromancer. Summoners base should have been an Evoker from the start evoking Melee, Tank and Caster in the form of Ifrit, Titan and Garuda gaining their abilities with glamours for the rest of them. Summoner in 4.0 should be a Caller with the ability to summon God like beings like Hydaelyn since she is the only one we know for sure that's a god or they can create Gods for Summoner to call.
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08-01-2015, 03:07 PMSpellbinderI'll hold off on the notion of two pets at the same time (if only because that sounds like a daunting task for the devs), and focus on the idea of a support pet. Hypothetically speaking, what would you propose such a pet could do that couldn't be added to Ifrit, Garuda, or Titan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Minorinz
This is a bit of a tangent, but when they first introduced Astrologian and its divining deck, I honestly couldn't imagine what type of support it could bring to the table. Or more specifically, what sort of heretofore unseen support it could bring to the table.
In the end, its divining deck offers the following types of buffs:
・Reduced recast times
・Increased attack speed
・TP Refresh
・MP Refresh
・+Damage
・+Defense
These are all buffs we've seen before, but most of these are buffs scholar and white mage normally can't provide (except perhaps for +defense). This makes them, in my opinion, a welcome addition to the healer role.
Bard and Machinist already provide three of these: MP Refresh, TP Refresh, and Increased damage (Foe Requiem), and most parties usually have at least one of these in the party.
The question then becomes, what kind of support do we want to see on summoner?
・Support similar to Machinist and Bard, slightly homogenizing the DPS classes more?
・A different type of supportive party buff or enemy debuff the other DPS classes don't have.
A few thoughts on buffs the other DPS don't have that could be plausible:
・Reflect magical damage to compliment Radiant Shield.
・Reduce magical damage taken.
・Reduce physical damage taken.
・Increase skill speed or attack speed.
Of course, we also have to consider how strong are the attacks from this pet, if it has any at all. I would imagine it would have to be low, offset by the benefit of the buffs it offers. And assuming we cannot summon two pets at the same time, would it serve as more competition for the throne that Garuda and Ifrit currently fight for. Another reason why a skill such as my proposed "Primal Calling" would be useful, allowing us to switch at reduced cost.
But enough of my rambling. :p Care to share any thoughts on a support pet? -
08-01-2015, 11:40 PMSoloWingMetatronI think a potential support Egi would be rather cool, and gives SE a way to introduce a 4th Egi type that actually does fill a unique role. However as we know the Egi provide a good chunk of a SMN's DPS (20%-30%?) and since a support Egi would in all likelihood not provide any DPS, this loss would have to be made up. Of course this can be achieved by the Egi having a physical/magical damage up buff. Another issue would be, is a support Egi treading too much on the toes of SCH? After all SMN is a DPS role first and foremost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellbinder
And I guess the other big question is what Egi would actually suit a specified support role? Based on the current known Primals the only one that really suits the role would be Phoenix. Unless of course SE flesh out the lore on Siren and make her a kind of Lesser Primal, as she would be perfect as a support Egi! Of course SE could just introduce a new Primal to fit the role also. -
08-02-2015, 12:10 AMMinorinz
I would say if we were to summon the support type pet and then use that CD to summon another dps pet for a minute, that would be a nice damage boost. They would introduce summon 4 which I think should be a support type pet that buffs our damage and enhances party's defense somehow.
SE definitely did the right thing by adding the dreadwyrm trance and gave us, the summoners, more actions rather than focusing the pets. Eventually, creating a support model it shouldn't affect our dps that much. -
08-02-2015, 01:24 AMckc22Heavily disagree. Summoner as it exists in mainline games is untenable for FFXIV. This is what most people want and it's a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiza
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08-02-2015, 05:12 AMSidra
I don't really like the idea of more egis. We are a DPS job, and parties need us to support a DPS role. I think Ifrit and Garuda are plenty of choice, with Titan great for soloing. I also don't care much about glamour egis - I care about how they perform not what they look like. IMO glamour egis is just a waste of devs time.
Overall, I'd say SMN is in a great spot now and as future expansions happen, I like the idea of Bahamut Trance where you basically summon the power of something instead of summoning the summon. -
08-02-2015, 06:10 AMSoloWingMetatron
People seem to be forgetting that Garuda and Titan are in fact just glamours of Emerald Carbuncle and Topaz Carbuncle. This means the bulk of the coding for the glamour system is already implemented, as SE will clearly utilize the same code to implement all other glamours. The only thing they need to work on is a UI for the glamours we unlock and the models, animations, VFX, and sound. All of which are very easy things to develop, especially the Egi visuals (based off their current design). Unless SE are planning a complete visual overhaul of the Egi.
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08-03-2015, 11:51 PMAkiza
Every job in this game is an extension of its Final Fantasy III and Final Fantasy V version except Summoner. Summoner starts as an Evoker with the ability to harness the power of magical beings and using Fire, Earth and Wind spells. They should make it so we invoke the power of Ifrit, Titan and Garuda and gain all their abilities. As a Caller the Summoner should call Hydaelyn and tranform into the Avatar of the Creator Goddess of Light gaining the ability to use all elements and Light of Destruction.
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08-04-2015, 02:29 AMInosaska
My feedback on the job
-Remove archetypes on pets and give them unique abilities that can be used in a majority of situations.
-Add more pets.
-Remove the dots and add unique new abilities for the summoner itself that gears it away from arcanist.
-Add the ability to switch through abilities like when switching jobs to the summons themselves and use the summon to fight your battles while you cast supporting skills. Most of your core used abilities should be done through the pet and not the caster itself which would follow better in line with the summoner style from final fantasy.
If they did these the class could be a lot better and won't make it difficult to design new abilities in future expansions but as of right now they will run into a problem with making new abilities that will just push it further away from the core summoner style from final fantasy. -
08-04-2015, 02:38 AMIromi
So far my feedback..all I can say is this job does not feel like a pet class at all.
Losing interest fast :( Much rather have had our new EGI and such. I want to play a PET CLASS....not something that feels like some weird nuker... -
08-04-2015, 11:23 AMAkiza
They need to remove pets from the Summoner give it an Evoker based with abilities revolving around invoking Primals as their base abilities.
Invoke Ifrit- gain all Ifrit hardmode abilities
Invoke Titan- gain all Titan hardmode abilities
Invoke Garuda- gain all Garuda hardmode abilities
Caller spell line
Since thier are no deities to call upon beside Hydaelyn we should gain Hydaelyn's permission to summon her. -
08-04-2015, 01:04 PMBishop81
All I want is the Carbuncles back. Either via pet glamor or as separate spells to summon them, as long as it's soon. How long do you want me to wait?!
/end rant
As for the talk of bigger summons ... it would be awesome if we have some other end-game activity than raiding and "classes" aren't confined to the needs of raiding.
They should have extra abilities (that may or may not be cross-class-able) that don't work in raids.
Then SMN can have their traditional big summons. No one is going to care if some big summon showed up at a FATE or Rank A Hunt. Maybe give it a cost so it won't be spammed and is instead a desperation move of sorts - e.g. A craft-able reagent that requires clusters depending on the Primal. -
08-04-2015, 01:59 PMBman10119
Make more/unique pets. the dots are great, nukes are fun. But i'd really love to have more options for summons and stick them all with one major job. titan could stay tank, ifrit should lose all his aoe's and become a major single target dpser, take away garudas knockback and contagion and give her more aoe. give contagion to a new pet that is entirely around supporting your abilities. a crowd control pet who uses slow, heavy, fear effects. a pet that has more dots. theres all kinds of options.
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08-04-2015, 02:45 PMDyvidI'm in the same boat really. SMN has been my main since beta but 3.0 changes really seem like a step back, where they focus more of fixing class weakness instead of building on their strengths. No new DoTs, no new Egi's, and fixes that should have been made in 2.XX. Dreadwyrm Trance could have easily been made into a temporary Bahamut Egi that just ranges nukes for 15s then goes away. What stings worse is they took my idea of having a single target pet and AoE pet, then gave it to MCH :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromi
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08-07-2015, 11:13 PMAkizaI don't think SE can add more DoTs to the Summoner since they are more poison theme. SE took Summoner back to its original iteration where they have an Evoker and Caller spell line. The Evoking spell line invokes a summon for a single big attack thet does a black or white effect. The Callers spell line will summon something that sticks around for a limited amount of time does its thing for awhile do its singnature attack then leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
As a PET CLASS Summoners should have stronger limited Pets or remove Pets altogether and make them spells where we invoke the Primals power use their abilities then Call the Primal for its big signature attack. -
08-11-2015, 04:41 AMRazzornConsidering how the story Summoner ended at 50, I can easily see something like this happening. Not completely removing Egis as pets mind you, but absorbing them to give you temporary Primal like powers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiza
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08-11-2015, 12:07 PMAkiza
Considering in 2.0 our artifact gear was called Evoker gearset and in 3.0 SE gave us the ability to evoke Bahamut. Now that our new artifact gear is called Caller gearset in 4.0 SE will give us th abiit to Call Hydaelyn or something along that lines.
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08-11-2015, 11:24 PMAiiroOkami
Here we go again...
@OP i don't blame you for this topic, you had good intentions and the first posts were constructive and interesting, but if you are not aware of this, we had a long period where you could see a lot of whining SMN threads. As you can see, it will probably turn out like those threads. -
08-12-2015, 12:15 AMAkizaThe OP thread is about suggestions on what we want to see with Summoner in 4.0 and beyond.Quote:
Originally Posted by AiiroOkami
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08-12-2015, 05:32 AMSoloWingMetatronAgreed, I'm glad the OP made this thread because it was a good idea and it is nice to see more constructive/interesting threads get made that aren't based on whining. However 9/10 times when an interesting/constructive post is made it gets ignored, and instead people choose to reply to silly posts that add nothing other than more whining. It happens on almost every SMN thread. Which shows one of two things, either the majority of the SMN community does not actually read previous posts/threads (hence the constant circle of reductive rhetoric) or the majority of the SMN community (in a juvenile way) refuse to just let things go for the greater good of the community. All it is doing at this point is destroying the SMN community in these forums....Quote:
Originally Posted by AiiroOkami
Of course if someone is constructively providing feedback on an aspect of SMN they don't like and think needs changing, then that's different. It's okay not to like elements of the job you play. -
08-12-2015, 11:03 AMSpellbinderI appreciate the warning and sentiments of concern. It's been two years since making a topic myself, but I follow any and everything summoner-related on the forums quite closely. To be frank, seeing people so unwilling to be civil, even if they don't see eye to eye, was very disheartening up to the release of Heavensward. I was very close to just letting my text sit on my computer and not post at all. But if you don't take a chance, you'll be left to wonder what could have been.Quote:
Originally Posted by AiiroOkami
There's a Japanese topic still going on their front page (112 pages and counting) with discussion and feedback, so I see no need to make a separate thread there at the moment. With that said, I feel a designated feedback thread here would help to suppliment the summoner guide created by Havenchild. Things have simmered down here in the DPS forums, so I'm hopeful this will work out. :) -
08-12-2015, 05:56 PMAiiroOkamiI have no problems with other opinions and suggestions, I'm rather happy that we can exchange our opinions on the SMN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellbinder
However, I don't like suggestions like "I want more pets, because that's how the Summoner should be" with the only "constructive argument is "It was like that in previous Final Fantasy".
People need to understand that while every Final Fantasy game has similarites (Some jobs, monsters, bosses, etc), they all have their own concept, lore and gameplay.
We can have other pets, SE could do it, but what would it bring to the table ? If one of the pet we have now is better, we'll use it, if the one of the new ones is better, we'll use it. Even if we had 6 pets, we will only use the best one.
That's why I liked your opinion on having a 4th support pet, but having a skill that will switch our pet for another one during some seconds and we could switch back to the one we were using. That is a good suggestion, constructive, you can be against or for it, it doesn't change the fact that it would be really interesting for the gameplay and also for the SMN job in itself. -
08-12-2015, 06:45 PMZaj_Quilos
if anything i would like them to make titan more useful outside of solo stuff.
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08-12-2015, 09:58 PMTrespar
I firmly believe that Titan-egi only being useful when solo is perfectly okay.
Making tank utility from a dps class useful is just way too difficult, because you risk making it mandatory(a thing they don't want), and I think that limiting it to solo is a perfectly good niche for it. It's not like it's utterly useless, I often use it to solo things I couldn't otherwise.
I also want to see more pets.
And while I don't want to see bigger pets, I want to see more detailed pets, and pets that are actually representative of their bigger counterpart.
The enhanced pet actions trait needs to be improved.
My idea:
Enhanced pet actions trait.
Your pet's primary attack/heal increases its damage and healing by 2%, stacking up to 5 times.
In addition, your Summon spells have their cast time and MP cost reduced by 20% per stack.
In addition to more pets, this allows us to switch pets on the fly to actually allow us to use multiple pets per fight, without running dry and having to give up our res utility.(saves Swiftcast and MP) -
08-13-2015, 12:19 AMAkiza
Increasing the number of Pets won't add anything it'll be effectively giving us new glamours as job abilities which is a waste. I'd say it's much more effective to add abilities to the Summoner and the Pet. If SE made an actual Pet Focused job it'll be Beastmaster since their monsters are permanent and do a majority of the damage. The Summoner generally calls a summon monster which deals heavy damage for 20s does its big signature attack then leaves. The summons themselves were just flashy spell animations.
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08-13-2015, 11:11 AMSaggoHistorical precedence is a very powerful tool. More pets would simply be more enjoyable, but they'd offer more utility too, more diversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by AiiroOkami
I don't care for pet glamours as a solution, personally, graphics might update but behavior and playstyle wouldn't change and that's what I'd want. At least Carbuncle upgrading to Garuda/Titan gave a potency boost.
Well two things. One, that's not much different than arguing that only one DPS job is the best at a given time, yet they're balanced pretty well and the have they most variety of any role. Dos, the better pet to use doesn't have to be the same pet for every situation, given survivability, utility, or DPS (resistances and mechanics or the like).Quote:
Originally Posted by AiiroOkami
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08-13-2015, 02:03 PMAkizaDPS Jobs aren't a good argument for wanting a variety of Pets since SE can change the way DPS is applied while with a Pet all damage is direct damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saggo
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08-13-2015, 04:47 PMAdamFyi
Just popping in to say; hey, I remember that quote!
Just to clarify so as to not confuse people, this was a joke towards those who wanted full-sized primals. Most posts related to that reflected that attitude which resulted in the post above. Please don't take it out of context. This is from the poster of whom was referred to in particular:Quote:
Person A: "Hey I like the Egi designs! How about you?"
Person B: "OH MY GOD. THEY ARE DISGUSTING. JUST LOOK AT THE POTATO-EGI, THE CHILI PEPPER AND WET NOODLE."
Person C: "Oh my god, I know right? They need to change it. Make them bigger!
Person D: "But lore.."
Everyone: "SHUT UP YOUR OPINION DOES NOT MATTER. LET US SUMMON FULL SIZED PRIMALS. MRGRGR. SE FIX IT."
Quote:
We're a cheap imitation, we can't even form the primals power in a way that resembles their physical incarnations like every other Final Fantasy series summoner has been in very game, numbered or not, It makes sense as Arcanist's but to become Summoners and not even be able to conjure the physical form of the things we intend to summon?
With that aside, I'm all for making the current Egi's slightly larger. A redesign would be welcome as well; if it means they'll look more appropriate for the job. But, I won't deny that I actually like how they look right now as they're quite cute when they're tiny like that. o//o -
08-13-2015, 04:54 PMAiiroOkamiFor all the fights in FFXIV so far, the best summon was either Garuda or Ifrit. Since Heavensward, Ifrit is almost the only one you use, Radiant Shield is too good to don't care about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saggo
The fights are straight forward, you are a tank, you tank, you are a healer, you heal, you are a DD, you do a lot of damages.
So I will repeat it again, you can have as much pets as you want, we'll only use the best one, because we are DD and our job is to do the more damages we can, I won't use a less powerful pet just for the sake of "diversity". And I don't really see in what our gameplay will change if we had more pets, the pet does almost everything by himself and you use his other skills by just clicking on it, the gameplay won't change at all.
That's why the pet glamour system is the best solution, you just see a graphic change so you can see other models while having the best pet. -
08-13-2015, 09:21 PMSoloWingMetatron
What I don't understand is why the Egi glamour topic keeps going around in the exact same circle of reductive rhetoric.
I get that people are worried the Egi glamours might not stand out and just be a mere clones. But regardless Egi glamours are confirmed now, so if we do ever see a new pet type it won't be for a long while. Furthermore people are again still forgetting that Garuda and Titan are already glamours of Emerald/Topaz Carbuncle, and other then the model design people are fine with them....so it's pretty much an oxymoron at this point.
Perhaps it would be best to wait and see exactly what SE are planning for the Egi glamours before falling back into the same rhetoric because it's not constructive to just repeat the same thing again, and again, and again. Don't get me wrong I adore the Egi and the prospect of new Egi (glamour or not) but there is far more Egi related stuff to talk about than just whether you want the new Egi to be introduced as glamours or not.
This is an interesting point because it shows that even though Garuda/Titan are just glamours of E.Carby/T.Carby, their abilities potency can be altered without effecting the coding of the original pet. This suggests that SE would be fully capable of editing the potency of the abilities for each Egi glamour, just like they did for Garuda and Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saggo
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08-13-2015, 11:40 PMSaggoYes, well, if we're just repeating ourselves, the best pet doesn't have to be the same for every fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by AiiroOkami
Because it's the only thing SE has made any comments on. And I never liked the idea as a replacement solution for actual new pets. If it's the only thing we get, I'll still prolly use it, but that doesn't mean I'll just give SE a free pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron
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08-14-2015, 01:28 AMSoloWingMetatronOh yeah if you don't like an element of a job or how it is implemented you have a right to express that dislike/worry. My point is we know nothing on exactly how this glamour system will be tackled and therefore no one can really form a well grounded opinion on that front. So instead of repeating oneself (which adds nothing new to the table) just wait until we know more to see if peoples previously expressed worries are justified. Which they could be, who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saggo
But if this thread is going to be truly constructive, then more depth needs to be added to peoples posts. Like in the first initial posts to this thread or in my previous comment how I mentioned how you brought up a good point about Garuda's/Titans's ability potency being increased, despite them just being glamours of E.Carby/T.Carby and what that could mean for the new Egi glamours. I don't get why you didn't focus on that to help get a good and actual constructive discussion going instead of keeping it to the same cycle of comments. -
08-14-2015, 10:11 AMSaggoWe can still make some pretty simple educated inferences. From their responses we have every right to assume it's no different than armor glamour, since they actively opposed something like Summon IV+ and made no mention of models modifying potency or behavior. It's logical to comment on their official statements. If they do a system like that, it won't be because of anything they've told us as of this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron
Forgive me if you weren't initially responding to me, but I'm aware of what Carby->Garuda does, considering I brought the point up in that very context. I wouldn't call them "just" glamours, their two functions of changing models and increasing potency are distinct from each other, especially since SE gave a pretty clear precedence with armor glamour. They're essentially pokemon evolutions, and yeah, that would be a neat system not a lot of MMOs have.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron
But I was being plenty constructive enough. New Summons aren't invalidated by peoples' need to use the best; a simple, and constructive, point. You latched onto what was clearly a side remark and are trying to force a conversation out of it when I was obviously talking about something else. I don't need a lecture because I didn't acquiesce. -
08-14-2015, 02:52 PMDyvid
Well I've posted this over a dozen times now over the years and SE just ignored it but I'll post again because of what MCH got.
Garuda = AoE pet
Ifrit = Single Target pet. -
08-14-2015, 06:52 PMAiiroOkamiThis is incredible how stubborn people can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saggo
SE tries to balance every job in the game, adding new pet is just too tricky.
For the sake of balance, new pets will just be useless or too OP. If they don't want that, they'll have to just add new models and animations but remain the same pet system as we have now, wait... that's the pet glamour system !
Investing time to make new pets is just useless, they can't make new type of pets (I will repeat myself again) because it would be either useless or too OP and the balance of the game will be broken. -
08-14-2015, 10:33 PMBishop81Ya ... but where is it?!Quote:
Originally Posted by AiiroOkami
They won't even confirm it for 3.1!
I have been waiting since ARR to be able to summon the carbuncles again. -
08-15-2015, 03:39 AMSenlitenSoonQuote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
Til then, dress yer local lala up as a primal and bark orders at it. XD