Make Stoneskin 2 instant cast

I can't think of a single practical reason for it to have cast time.

And I'll take 3 new egis without wasting a job skill slot kthxbye.

Its true it should be faster. The cast time is pointless since it can't be used in combat.

I'd rather have tanks learn not to run off while healers are buffing them, but that's just me.

You have Swiftcast just in case :p

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Originally Posted by Kelya

You have Swiftcast just in case :p

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Swiftcast is for Holy :P

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Swiftcast is for Holy :P

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Hahaha so true, that's a really big deal for the OP then!

Funny thing is, I get all 8 of us Stoneskinned one by one almost at the same time it takes to use Stoneskin II.

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Originally Posted by Kelya

You have Swiftcast just in case :p

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A. What if Swiftcast is on CD

B. Can you think of a reason why SS2 has a casting time?

Well in a 4 man dungeon SS2 before every pull isn't absolutely necessary (only SS the tank) and in a 8 man content, you only need it each time you wipe (assuming you wipe) so that's not often.

SS2 is Stoneskining 8 persons in the same time, this is a big spell. That's normal it has 6s cast, and to be honest 6s isn't really so long :o

Let's make the shield buff instant out of combat, let's make the fairy invocation instant out of combat too then. You are asking for something that isn't really needed imo.

You only really need to use it before boss fights anyway and most of the time unless you get one of those Tanks that just charges into everything you should have enough time to use SS2 on everyone however i do agree that the long cast time is weird considering it can only be used outside combat so it wouldn't be that OP to be able to insta cast it between pulls.

faster sure why not

You guys are avoiding my question. This ability cannot be casted in battle, It's the ONLY ability you can't use in battle (other than un-upgraded Raise). There's no purpose to give it a casting time other than defeating the purpose of its existence in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MXMoondoggie

You only really need to use it before boss fights anyway and most of the time unless you get one of those Tanks that just charges into everything you should have enough time to use SS2 on everyone however i do agree that the long cast time is weird considering it can only be used outside combat so it wouldn't be that OP to be able to insta cast it between pulls.

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So waiting for 6 seconds between pulls will make it less OP lol?

Try to be a little grateful it even exist.

SS2 is only a must have for coil/primals in 8 man missions. Most of the time you have Swiftcast ready once you wiped, I personnaly almost never have to cast it. When I have to, that's not a big deal, before you needed almost 30s to SS everyone xD

And 6s is nothing when your party must wait like 2 min after each wipe for their CD. In the end it's really changing nothing, above all for 4 man dungeons

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

A. What if Swiftcast is on CD

B. Can you think of a reason why SS2 has a casting time?

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Yes. So that it's inconvenient to use prior to every pull. It's nice before bosses or if you want to not have swiftcast for a minute.

If it was instant, why have it at all? Why not just make it a WHM trait that everyone around you always has stoneskin while out of battle. Automatically applied. Raises, spot healing, teleports, and buffs too. Also we can teleport to the next group of mobs automatically because it's out of battle and there's no reason not to just be there, already.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Yes. So that it's inconvenient to use prior to every pull. It's nice before bosses or if you want to not have swiftcast for a minute.

If it was instant, why have it at all? Why not just make it a WHM trait that everyone around you always has stoneskin while out of battle. Automatically applied. Raises, spot healing, teleports, and buffs too. Also we can teleport to the next group of mobs automatically because it's out of battle and there's no reason not to just be there, already.

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You can probably anwser your own question. Why did SE introduce SS2?

And like I talked about the other abilities, there's a reason they need cast time because you can use them in battle.

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Originally Posted by Kelya

SS2 is only a must have for coil/primals in 8 man missions. Most of the time you have Swiftcast ready once you wiped, I personnaly almost never have to cast it. When I have to, that's not a big deal, before you needed almost 30s to SS everyone xD

And 6s is nothing when your party must wait like 2 min after each wipe for their CD. In the end it's really changing nothing, above all for 4 man dungeons

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So when you do cast SS before pulls, you cast them 1 by 1? Or you don't cast them at all?

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

You can probably anwser your own question. Why did SE introduce SS2?

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Because investing 24s to cast stoneskins on a raid group before each pull was monotonous. There was no choice or timing involved beyond that initial decision to stoneskin everyone, so you may as well have done it with a macro. That doesn't mean the group version should just ignore the notion of costs - there are still tradeoffs to consider when casting it or not.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Because investing 24s to cast stoneskins on a raid group before each pull was monotonous. There was no choice or timing involved beyond that initial decision to stoneskin everyone, so you may as well have done it with a macro. That doesn't mean the group version should just ignore the notion of costs - there are still tradeoffs to consider when casting it or not.

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And what trade off is that?

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

And what trade off is that?

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That it costs time and MP. Thus:

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Yes. So that it's inconvenient to use prior to every pull. It's nice before bosses or if you want to not have swiftcast for a minute.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

That it costs time and MP. Thus:

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So what you are saying is the purpose of the cast time is just to inconvenient us? Then why the hell did they bring it out in the first place? It was already inconvenient us before.

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

So what you are saying is the purpose of the cast time is just to inconvenient us?

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Not sure if serious or trolling at this point.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Not sure if serious or trolling at this point.

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I can say the same about the stuff you are saying. Your point is counter intuitive.

You are trying to convince me, "You guys can't have this shit for free, you need to work for it a little bit." Well that's not a practical reason, it's a philosophical reason and belongs to a different topic.

People complaint Stoneskin everyone takes too much time, that's why Stoneskin 2 is here. If the reason is because time consumption, why still have it around? It's like say your city takes away property tax, but they'll now charge an occupancy tax instead. Don't you think someone will rise up and ask WTF?

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

So when you do cast SS before pulls, you cast them 1 by 1? Or you don't cast them at all?

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In 4 man, I don't use SS2 except on the very begining of the mission (with swiftcast). For each bosses, I only SS the tank; which is more than enough anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kelya

In 4 man, I don't use SS2 except on the very begining of the mission (with swiftcast). For each bosses, I only SS the tank; which is more than enough anyway.

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If Stoneskin 2 is instant cast will you say people who cast it more often than you can benefit from it?

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

I can say the same about the stuff you are saying. Your point is counter intuitive.

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All spells involve costs which are inconvenient to some degree. They are intended to motivate you to use those spells in certain ways. Stoneskin II has major benefits over Stoneskin I. It takes much less time and mp to prepare a party. But it is not something you need to use before every minor pull and has its costs, in mp/time, weighted accordingly.

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

If Stoneskin 2 is instant cast will you say people who cast it more often than you can benefit from it?

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Yeah, this will benefit them. But there is no reason to over use SS2.

I'm not saying I'm right when to use SS2 or not, but following your idea you can ask improvment for any spell and say "I use it a lot, it will benefit me if the spell is changed in X way".

It's not about the % of players that use the skill / want an improvment of the skill, it's about a balance. Each time you give improvment to X% of players, you are likely to make some Y% unhappy players.

Look at the "Shroud of saints needs to scal with the MP!". A lot of players share the view, but some others don't and if it happened to be changed, these some others players would have more easy time in the game (whereas it is already easy) and they don't necessarily want it.

I've read your post 3 times just to make sure I'm not stupid.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

All spells involve costs which are inconvenient to some degree. They are intended to motivate you to use those spells in certain ways.

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Equals:

Stoneskin 2's cost is inconvenient because SE want to motivate players to use it a certain way.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Stoneskin II has major benefits over Stoneskin I. It takes much less time and mp to prepare a party. But it is not something you need to use before every minor pull and has its costs, in mp/time, weighted accordingly.

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Equals:

Even though Stoneskin 2 cast faster than 4(8)x Stoneskin 1, you don't need to cast it every time.

All together: The reason Stoneskin 2 has a 6 second casting time, is because SE don't want people to use it everytime?

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Originally Posted by Kelya

Yeah, this will benefit them. But there is no reason to over use SS2.

I'm not saying I'm right when to use SS2 or not, but following your idea you can ask improvment for any spell and say "I use it a lot, it will benefit me if the spell is changed in X way".

It's not about the % of players that use the skill / want an improvment of the sill, it's about a balance. Each time you give improvment to X% of players, you are likely to make some Y% unhappy players.

Look at the "Shroud of saints needs to scal with the MP!". A lot of players share the view, but some others don't and if it happened to be changed, these some others players would have more easy time in the game (whereas it is already easy).

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Don't interpret "I use it a lot, it will benefit me if the spell is changed in X way" as "I want to make my class more OP". They are 2 very different concepts. Making Stoneskin 2 instant cast will NOT break balance in any imaginable way.

Also what reason would making Stoneskin 2 instant cast make some players unhappy? So far the only thing I read on this thread is, "It shouldn't be used too often". Well in this thread I don't care about how often it uses, I only care about what happens when it's used.

And just so we are clear, I hate Stoneskin with a passion. If you read one of my old threads I created an entire thread telling people Stoneskin is way too over used. But I still recognize there are healers attached to it like dung beetle on shit. And these healers will take that 6 seconds of time casting this damn thing after I popped Fight or Flight.

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

All together: The reason Stoneskin 2 has a 6 second casting time, is because SE don't want people to use it everytime?

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Right. This way, you only cast it when you're willing to invest 6s or a swiftcast to get the buffs up. In a raid this is a no-brainer.. you'd have spent the 24s to spam everyone with buffs anyway. In a dungeon you're chain pulling you probably won't bother. Result is a quality of life improvement without a fundamental change to how the spell is used.

It won't make some players unhappy in the way you think. It's just normal that everyspell has a cost and a constraint. WHM is a lot about casting spell, only instant are Regen, Benediction, Aero 1, Aquatic aura ect... This makes senses that SS2 stays into this logic background. It still has a MP cost, it's still linked to the SS 1 so it's makes senses that it still needs a cast time.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Right. This way, you only cast it when you're willing to invest 6s or a swiftcast to get the buffs up. In a raid this is a no-brainer.. you'd have spent the 24s to spam everyone with buffs anyway. In a dungeon you're chain pulling you probably won't bother. Result is a quality of life improvement without a fundamental change to how the spell is used.

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Ok fair enough, how do you account for the tons of healers pre-Stoneskin before all the mobs are dead, and the tons of healers just cast it raw even though Swiftcast is up? Would you say this ideal is working well in practice?

What about immersion in the game? World sense, as in, the world's physics and all that jazz.

What sense would it make for Stoneskin II to have no cast time? It takes time to channel the aether necessary to protect 8 people, you know? :D

What's next? Instant Teleports? lel, get a grip

You can't talk about immersion when we literally woke up one day and learned a new spell out of the blue.

Given how anti-Speed Run the Dev team has been in their dungeon design, the only legitimate reason I can think of that they didn't make SS2 instant cast was to give WHMs a choice in their resource management in a speedrun environment.

"Do I burn my swiftcast on that Stoneskin II? Or perhaps I'll burn it with a Holy I'll use later down the line? Oh, and the MP cost on Stoneskin II is pretty high for four people, maybe I should save the MP for another Holy or Cure on the next pack" etc etc.

I guess you could say it was an attempt to give WHM a bit more depth in their toolkit.

Personally, I believe SS2 as a QoL tool for Raid groups, allowing groups to only wait 8 seconds (or less if the WHM burns Swiftcast) instead of 24 seconds between wipes. Kinda funny, if they allowed SS2 to only be cast in only a Full Party composition, they might've avoided some of these threads popping up. But hey, hindsight is 20/20.

Considering the limitation of not being able to cast it in combat (as well as targets engaging in combat during the casting not receiving it), the cast time is a little excessive. Not game-breakingly so, but it is a little annoying.

I think Ghishlain is probably correct about the reasoning behind the SS2 cast time. I don't think it's really necessary, but I can see them looking at it that way.

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

Ok fair enough, how do you account for the tons of healers pre-Stoneskin before all the mobs are dead, and the tons of healers just cast it raw even though Swiftcast is up? Would you say this ideal is working well in practice?

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I would respond that asking a loaded question is in poor taste and then refuse to answer because of it.

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Originally Posted by Kelya

It won't make some players unhappy in the way you think. It's just normal that everyspell has a cost and a constraint. WHM is a lot about casting spell, only instant are Regen, Benediction, Aero 1, Aquatic aura ect... This makes senses that SS2 stays into this logic background. It still has a MP cost, it's still linked to the SS 1 so it's makes senses that it still needs a cast time.

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"It doesn't feel right" just don't feel like an convincing answer.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Given how anti-Speed Run the Dev team has been in their dungeon design, the only legitimate reason I can think of that they didn't make SS2 instant cast was to give WHMs a choice in their resource management in a speedrun environment.

"Do I burn my swiftcast on that Stoneskin II? Or perhaps I'll burn it with a Holy I'll use later down the line? Oh, and the MP cost on Stoneskin II is pretty high for four people, maybe I should save the MP for another Holy or Cure on the next pack" etc etc.

I guess you could say it was an attempt to give WHM a bit more depth in their toolkit.

Personally, I believe SS2 as a QoL tool for Raid groups, allowing groups to only wait 8 seconds (or less if the WHM burns Swiftcast) instead of 24 seconds between wipes. Kinda funny, if they allowed SS2 to only be cast in only a Full Party composition, they might've avoided some of these threads popping up. But hey, hindsight is 20/20.

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I feel everyone here has a legitimate explanation of why Stoneskin 2 has cast time to a degree. In practice there are, and will be people who will use it indiscriminately. And while it will never break an entire duty run, I find it cumulatively annoy. So the reason I'm creating this thread, is to say if they are gonna do it anyways, just make it less interruptible.

I personally died way too many times to WHM, much more often than SCH. Mainly because of their poor judgement of the situation, and poor resource management. I mean I wish all of the WHM out there will practice the thought process you are describing lol, it'll really make my day as Tank.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

I would respond that asking a loaded question is in poor taste and then refuse to answer because of it.

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It was rhetorical. You and I already know the answer, you reserving to a put-down just confirmed it.