I'm just watching my friend thats level 48 just destory mobs in seconds faster then a drag or a monk could do.
Even worse is they don't need Pos requirement.
I think ninja's are gonna be the new monk
Ninja damage insane over monk
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10-30-2014, 01:26 PMPinkie_PieNinja damage insane over monk
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10-30-2014, 01:53 PMdippindots326
prolly gonna get nerfed eventually then
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10-30-2014, 02:13 PMPinkie_PiePretty much, that's what happened with monks and drags long ago :PQuote:
Originally Posted by dippindots326
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10-30-2014, 02:51 PMSeraphD
Theres is a pretty simple explanation for that.
A monk cant use his positional requirments when fighting a mob solo to deal extra damage, same with the dragoon.
The ninja only has one positional and thats to lower the enemy slashing resistance.
I guess we'll have to wait until there are some solid numbers from raids and stuff to see the real values. -
10-30-2014, 02:59 PMdday3sixPart of the issue with Monks and Dragoons I've seen in the open world is they rarely bother to use their stuns to set up positional attacks. At any rate, few players are at 50, and I'm personally more concerned with how the job handles at level 50 in dungeons. Rather than what happens with mobs in the open world.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraphD
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10-30-2014, 03:48 PMWarlyx
Monks need 3 stacks /positionals attacks to start doing their max dmg, NIN has incredible burst will all CDS UP , just SATA is 500 (400) potency and ninjutsu can burst 1 mob with easy.
but is like saying a BLM with Astral Fire 3 , and swiftacst / ragings strikes is insane over monk....yeah ....nothing can touch triple fire...but u dont see BLM nerfed because that ....because isnt sustainable...
the dmg of monk on bosses is TOP , and will be always , nin has more utility and less positional attacks , i doubt MNK are in danger :P -
10-30-2014, 03:57 PMroninoftagrm
dont forgot the ninjutsu, while a 20s cd skill is about on par with fire 3, it can be used twice every 90s(?) on top of the 4 others(essentially 5 every 90s), the 2 hiding attacks are one offs unless you can hide multiple times in a single fight, ie a 7.5s insta combo burst...sorta.
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10-30-2014, 04:05 PMLeonus
People are overreacting to nin. I'm sure a lot of testing was done damage wise in comparison to mnk. If anything, drg should be brought up damage wise in comparison to where mnk is.
I will say a very good nin will also have really good dps in long fights and it might take longer to catch a nin in damage over a long fight than a drg for a mnk.
I see it like this, drg has really high burst damage, mnk has really high sustained damage. Nin is in the middle. -
10-30-2014, 04:06 PMroninoftagrmthey have alot less issues than either class/job, every dungeon i've run with was dancing around mobs, maybe in celebration of not having stay behind anything, though there is that one skill:trick attack, requires hide and increases all damage received by 10%... for 10s, hmmm, ya, no, thats forever off my barQuote:
Originally Posted by dday3six
edit:remembered there was a flank skill as a 1-2-3 combo lowers slash resist and healing, yay, another dragoon style class(flanking not cowering) -
10-30-2014, 04:17 PMLeonus
You're gonna need TA on your bar....
Suiton mudra combo let's you use it.... without having to hide. -
10-30-2014, 04:53 PMShaolinMikeThis. Plus, ninja (and other jobs as well) can do a lot of damage in 10s. That's essentially 3 GCDs = roughly 6 skills used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
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10-30-2014, 07:03 PMAphel
If a ninja is able to keep track of:
1. Mutilate 30-sec bleed
2. Shadow Fang (2-hit combo) 18-sec bleed
3. Dancing Edge (side-positional) 20-sec debuff
4. Huton (3-mudra) 70-sec speed buff on yourself
5. Trick attack 1min CD so that you can Suiton (3-mudra) and execute it
6. Kassatsu CD to reset your ninjutsu timer.
7. Blood for Blood, Internal Release cross-class CDs
8. Execute perfect Raitons (3-mudra), no screwing up
9. Avoid Boss mechanics in melee range.
in a raid scenario, then Ninjas deserve to be in the top DPS spot. It is the most difficult class in FFXIV at the moment. -
10-30-2014, 07:29 PMAlphras
That doen't really sound more difficult than the other two melee jobs to me and in a raid scenario, the ninja doesn't even need to care about Dancing Edge most of the time.
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10-30-2014, 08:05 PMAphel
This is taking into account the amount of mudra combinations you have to know like the back of your hand and execute them on CD, in between your usual rotations. It's very easy to screw up and hence drop your dps.
So your dps buttons will be like 1-2-mudra1-mudra2-mudra3-ninjutsu-3. I've played dragoon and monk. Can easily tell you that this job is tougher than the other two. While it's true that a Warrior's presence dispenses the need of Dancing Edge, you've still got to know how to use it should such a situation arises. -
10-30-2014, 09:14 PMApl_Juice
Ninja's attack speed is also on par with GL3 if you're playing correctly, which means they have to press buttons just as fast as Monks do.
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10-30-2014, 09:25 PMMaero
I sort of noticed while leveling my final level of Monk yesterday, was doing a fate @ lvl 49 and had agro on boss, along came a Ninja of the same level (49) and i got agro and i simply just could not get it back. Granted i did not see the numbers of dmg for the Ninja, but i was like what the heck ...
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10-30-2014, 09:35 PMAlphras
The mudra mechanic is not as complex as you make it to be. It only matters that you get the last one right and that you don't press one of them twice. You don't even need to/can't weave them between weapon skills and since we are talking about single target dps, there are only three combinations that matter at all (Suiton, Huton, Raiton). The rest are standard melee dps mechanics that Monks and Dragoons need to take care of too (plus the positional requirements that the Ninja does not have).
Imo the complexity for MNK comes from knowing the fights and the boss movement well enough to maximize GL uptime. I cannot really talk about DRG, since I never played one in endgame, but I know that they get pretty messed up if they don't get their Heavy Thrust up and they have quite a lot of off globals to manage.
Edit: And saying one class "deserves" to be top dps because of complexity is pretty messed up in a mmorpg environment anyway. Every class should be as valid as the others for a certain role in a raid scenario and we will see if that is the case (and square will nerf the Ninja or buff the other jobs if it isn't). -
10-30-2014, 10:43 PMSpecialKKI'm thinking (more hoping) DRG will get a buff in 3.0Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
Right now, MNK is tops against single-target boss fights that doesn't have a lot of downtime. They should be fine in the long run even with NIN.
But, based on prelim comments about NINs, their single-target boss damage, though they may not be able to surpass MNK, is still very close to it. Yet, they appear to have better "burst" damage than MNKs. Meanwhile, DRGs appears to lose out against both on single-target and their burst damage shines on quick "adds" kills (since they have less of a timer with their burst ability than NIN).
Basically, this is how they appear to be shaping up right now:
Single Target with no/little downtime: MNK > NIN > DRG
ST with downtime (enough for MNK to lose GL): NIN > DRG > MNK
Frequent Burst skills: DRG > NIN > MNK
Positional requirements (in terms of ease): NIN > DRG > MNK
Just looking at those four criteria, you see that NIN is never last. MNK has the best ST dmg in exchange for their difficult positional requirements. They either rate good or really good without drawbacks. And here's a fifth category that, IMO ultimately swings the favor to NIN over DRG...
Utility
A MNK can Silence
A DRG can Stun
A NIN can Stun, Silence, AND refresh TP for a party member
Given the versatility of DPS they bring to the table, less positional requirements, and the utility they bring to the table...you just can't beat that skill set. And since groups will likely only bring two melee DPS to most fights, why wouldn't you bring MNK and NIN? -
10-30-2014, 11:09 PMEhayte
Since we are playing the conjecture game...
If NIN is unchanged, my new favorite group composition for a 1-tank scenario would be NIN/NIN/DRG/BRD/SMN/WAR/SCH/WHM
- 100% up-time on Storm's Path
- 100% up-time on piercing debuff (forget what its called)
- 33% up-time on Trick Attack
- 2 Goads
- Battle Rez
- Foe's
Can you imagine the 20 second bursts that could be done with TA, Piece+, Slash+, Ninjitsu, DRG DPS, and fester burn? -
10-30-2014, 11:14 PMiMark521
A MNK can also stun :P
I'll aways be a DRG lover, but I can't wait to get my NIN to 50. -
10-30-2014, 11:29 PMAlphrasSome additions:Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialKK
MNK has mantra
DRG increases BRD damage
NIN increases party damage by 10% for 10s every minute
Edit: MNK also has a permanent INT debuff (whoever cares). -
10-30-2014, 11:45 PMRahayaMnk can stun (twice with a good Shoulder Tackle) AND silence as I fondly remember solo silencing ADS back in the day and you have Steel Peak.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialKK
That's the main problem with these comparison posts, imo. People are always forgetting about or dismissing ALL points of the DRG and MNK. DRG still seems to be the better AOE dps, for example. -
10-30-2014, 11:53 PMSpecialKKAll this does is support my point though. When you look at damage and utility, MNK and NIN looks to be better than DRG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahaya
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10-30-2014, 11:56 PMAlphrasWell, frankly for melee dps all the support utility that didn't increase damage and aoe capability were not relevant in scob and this is what was important the last six months (could argue in favor of Mantra). We will see how it works out in the new content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahaya
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10-31-2014, 12:39 AMRahayaMy comment was mainly a reaction to 'NIN has too much utility, damage should be low' idea when MNK is right there as top dps with Mantra vs Goad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphras
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10-31-2014, 12:39 AMEmpressiaadd positional potency bonus like MNK over DRG thrust combo, and DRG will dethrone MNK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
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10-31-2014, 12:57 AMSpecialKKExcept the utility comparison was not made in regards to MNK vs. NIN, but NIN vs. DRGQuote:
Originally Posted by Rahaya
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10-31-2014, 12:59 AMmelflomilI thought Dragon kicks put a Blunt resistance down and INT resistance down by 10%?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphras
So a mnk can benefit casters, Dragoons benift bard and WAR can benefit NiN?
So an ideal 8 man group would be
WAR
WHM
SCH
BRD
DRG
MNK
SMN/BLM
NIN -
10-31-2014, 01:02 AMSpecialKKI think 2.4 is a step towards the right direction for DRG. I don't think it needs more positional requirements to make it more MNK-like. Just give it more off-GCD jumps (or further shorten the cooldown on the current jumps). Could even maybe add some kind of jump that ties into one of the base comboQuote:
Originally Posted by Empressia
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10-31-2014, 01:11 AMEardstapaDoton craps all over dragon AoE DPS from what I have seen...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahaya
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10-31-2014, 01:12 AMwhiskeybravoDK affects INT damage dealt by target (like large magic based AOE damage from bosses) not a magic resistance down like Foe's Requiem.Quote:
Originally Posted by melflomil
I do like the synergy between WAR and NIN though, if war maintains storm's eye then NIN can use their higher potency combo. Then pop Goad on them to help with that overpower spam. -
10-31-2014, 01:23 AMRahayaOh I see. DRG does seem to be lacking in what it brings to the table, on top of not being top dps to account for it, is what you mean? I agree. DRGs got kind of screwed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialKK
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10-31-2014, 01:37 AMSpecialKKYes, that was my first post in reference to. Someone mentioned that DRGs damage should be brought up to be more comparable to MNK, and I elaborated by doing a comparison of the three melee DPS. Right now, the sole "bonus" of having a dragoon is for parties with a BRD. Otherwise, we really don't have much utility compared to MNK and definitely NIN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahaya
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10-31-2014, 01:50 AMmelflomilDont worry you can guarantee that DRG will get Super Jump (Double potency of Jump and can be stacked with Power surge) and Cresent moon. attack all enemies within range for High damageQuote:
Originally Posted by Rahaya
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10-31-2014, 02:07 AMAphelPositional requirements aren't a big deal. When you've raided as a monk it becomes second nature to you, keeping 3 stacks of greased lightning is not that difficult unless it's forced upon you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphras
Three combinations that are suited for raiding, more if you want to slow down mobs (dreadknights), bind enemy targets/slow in pvp. Yes it is complex and a messed up mudra = 360 potency loss in Raiton's case. It is way more complex than a monk I can assure you. Making sure that your ninjutsu is always on cooldown, taking into account how fast the mob dies (and hence alter your dot/buff strategies). As a monk/dragoon, all I have to do is leave out 1 dot/debuff. For a Ninja that translates into 2-3 mudras that I have to remember how to cast properly in a split second. Remember that these mudras are 0.5sec recasts. The amount of complexity and depth is way more, thus more fulfilling for me. For doing this amount of work with 0 mistakes, I expect Ninja users who can perfect such feats to excel at DPS.
If I could just cast Fire/Blizzard/Thunder with a 3-button DPS rotation coming out top on DPS charts, why should I bother with Ninja?
As to Dragoons, they have the best almost on-demand burst in the game. That life-surge/full thrust combo is unbeatable when you factor in jumps too (880potency from just a simple 1-2-3 full thrust combo, compared to Ninja's 770 potency). Ninja can burst more but it requires quite a bit of preparation right in the middle of battle (suiton, but requires you to check if that burst is necessary vs your own buff upkeep). -
10-31-2014, 02:15 AMLeonus
It's not just raiding as mnk either, it's drg too. Positional requirements aren't that hard. I don't know why everyone says they are and bases the difficulty of a job off of it.
Drg may not be the top, but is still really good. -
10-31-2014, 04:36 AMEdwinFadeThis is wrong on so many levels, haha. Trick Attack is the best if not the second best ability that monks have...easily. The only other thing that is going to compare is Huton the 15% attack speed buff for 70s. That 10% additional from Trick Attack is from the WHOLE PARTY/RAID. This adds up to way more dps than using sneak attack. Way more.Quote:
though there is that one skill:trick attack, requires hide and increases all damage received by 10%... for 10s, hmmm, ya, no, thats forever off my bar
People who haven't taken the time to properly read the abilities or who are not end game raiders need to stop screaming about OP and imbalances. 1 positional they probably wont even have to use in raid (your raid should have a warrior) does not constitute as positional dependent class. Their sneak/trick attack are positional as well, I haven't forgotten, but they have a 1m cooldown and it is easy to perform. No reason you should botch that. -
10-31-2014, 04:44 AMShaolinMike
EdwinFade is 100% right. Please read the entire ability list before you condemn a skill as useless. As stated in so many other posts, the Suiton buff allows you to use Sneak Attack / Trick Attack in battle, without needing to hide. Also, the buff from Trick Attack is significant: Good DPS players can whoop a lot of @$$ in 10s, regardless of what job they're using. It's basically a party-wide Raging Strikes. You're welcome.
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10-31-2014, 04:56 AMSpecialKKThis might be one of the few macros I'll make for NIN. I typically am not fond of "alert" macros, but letting your party know to unleash all heck in a 10s span might be a good "tell"Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinMike
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10-31-2014, 05:03 AMMrSigyquoted for best response on-topicQuote:
Originally Posted by Aphel