I mentioned this once before as a possible change to the Warrior self-healing mechanic as a way to relieve some of the healer stress of seeing a Warrior's health drop like a rock after every big hit. The premise is that by having Warriors build "shields" of temporary HP with their self-heal abilities allows for a more proactive and preemptive playstyle. Instead of taking a big hit that drops you to 25% health and popping Inner Beast to heal back up while the White Mage frantically casts their biggest cures, the Warrior can pop Inner Beast before the attack to generate their shield which will soak up most of the damage and leave you at 75-50% hp.
My suggestion received a largely negative response without any explanation of why other than a single reference to Death Knights from WoW. I have no experience with DK so I don't know what they were like or why their form of temp hp generation was over/underpowered or what.
Does anybody agree that this could be a good idea? It's never going to happen, SqEnix has already decided how WARs work (though 2.1 seems on the verge of dangerously homogenizing WAR/PLD), but I still think it's a good idea. If you disagree, please explain why in greater detail than "No, you're an idiot."
Temporary HP Tank
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12-13-2013, 03:37 AMZenBearTemporary HP Tank
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12-13-2013, 05:28 AMZenBear
le bump. so stupid that mobile site doesn't have edit function... >.>
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12-13-2013, 05:59 AMEightbit
Two ways for this to work. One, the flat rate shield. Where every inner beast gives so much damage reduction upon use, which is exactly what SE is doing. Two the excess hp shield. Where any over heal from an inner beast becomes that shield, so that you use inner beast at full health and if it would give you 1k hp, it gives you a stone skin for 1k. That becomes useless pretty fast. First, you will never be sitting with banked hp for long, and in harder hitting fights it may never happen. It scales very poorly with progression, as in it will only scale when you improve not when your enemies do. Second, you will have to be 100% synchronized with your healer. You use IB too soon and suddenly a heal is wasted on top of not having that extra shield. Healers would also have to have rough ideas of how much of that shield you have banked at any given time to know how much to be ready to heal you for.
In short I just don't think it would work very well, and the given changes are by far better. -
12-13-2013, 06:11 AMZoomieBasically this ^Quote:
Originally Posted by Eightbit
Say you're tanking Titan, something everyone has to do at some point.
You use IB after land slide and Titan auto's you twice for 900 then Mountain Busters for 4000. With your IB idea you would at most have a shield for something like 1000 damage. So you still take 4800 damage because Titans first auto ate nearly the entire shield.
Now you have the 2.1 IB. You pop it and suddenly those 900's are 720's and that 4000 is a 3200 savings you from 1160 damage. This differency will only get larger as content scales. -
12-13-2013, 06:21 AMPaikisExcept my Inner Beasts are much larger than 1k. The change is a nerf on all content except turn 4 and 5. WAR gets really good with gear. People need to stop gearing and playing like a Paladin. Yoshi was right, most WARs need some L2P.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomie
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12-13-2013, 06:23 AMZenBearYou misunderstand. What I'm talking about replaces all self-healing with shield generation. Using IB does not recover HP and is not affected by current HP. The shield generates independently, so you don't need to be at max health.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eightbit
Obviously I don't have a complete picture of how this would work. I don't know if perhaps a buff or nerf to potency would be needed or what. I'm not proposing this option as a replacement to the current changes; as I said, my idea will never be implemented. I'm just throwing it out there to discuss for the giggly shits. -
12-13-2013, 06:50 AMEightbitIt is a nerf only when the warrior is over geared for the content. Maybe at much lower levels, I guess, but I'd still say any level 50 dungeon paladin is better until over gearing it. To design around over gearing is a horrible idea. Your inner beasts have a cap based off your gear. Hypothetically, with both tanks having infinite hp and both in the same gear set, and your IB heals for 5k (far beyond what is possible). Boss hits you for 20 damage, paladin gets hit for 16, IB over heals you. Boss hits for 20,000 and you heal back 5k for a total of 15k damage, paladin takes 16k. Almost on par suddenly, now time to truly go over the top. Boss hits for 20 million, you heal for 5k for a total damage of 19,995,000, and paladin takes 16 million damage. Yes that is really extreme but that is the point.When a warrior cannot heal back more than 20% of the damage taken he is behind paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
Sorry warrior currently is just behind paladin mathematically. There is no magic play style or tricks to make up for that.
I think I follow. So instead of healing hp, it generates a shield say based off the damage done instead? If so, it still runs into the flaw that a flat percent mitigated is better in the long run over anything that is based of a fixed out put number.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenBear
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12-13-2013, 07:04 AMExstalAnd this, ladies and gentlemen, is why Warrior is getting a buff and Yoshi doesn't tell you to L2P.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eightbit
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12-13-2013, 07:05 AMZenBearCorrect, and yes to an extent percent mitigation is better than fixed soak, but conceptually that is the difference between PLD and WAR. Paladins is the mitigation tank, Warrior is the soak tank. That's why I'm a bit concerned with the 2.1 changes adding so much mitigation to the Warrior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eightbit
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12-13-2013, 07:11 AMPaikisActually Yoshi did say L2P, and he never retracted that statement, he merely said that PLD was too good and WAR was being bought up to that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
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12-13-2013, 07:11 AMLex_Luger
Really wish that ANY of the WAR's that post here and talk about how they are one of the chosen few who actually know how to play the class would make their achievements public. I guess people are afraid of getting called on their BS.
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12-13-2013, 07:33 AMEightbitTrue, and to an extent warrior is losing its "flavor" to be more paladin tasting. But at the end of it all, damage is damage and both have to deal with it. I'm a little sad to see the hp bit of warriors go, though it just isn't possible to really balance well in this set up right now. My stance now is that while both will become mitigation, their styles are pretty different on how they do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenBear
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12-13-2013, 07:34 AMGamemakoThat simply isn't true. This is a nerf on mid-game content of Qarn through Stone Vigil or so. It's a buff on 5-stack Grudge even in fully-maxed DPS gear, and it's a very large buff on the people for whom the content was designed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
Apparently, he figured that everyone would need full ilvl90 for Coil until PLDs did it in Darklight. He didn't say L2P, he pretty much threw everyone back in the fire until they had the gear to do it as intended without realizing that PLD didn't need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
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12-13-2013, 08:49 AMKitruWAR isn't losing the WAR "flavor". The WAR flavor was *never* "self healing tank", "soak tank", or whatever else people seem to think that its flavor was. The only "soak tank" thing about it is the higher hp, which, as has been pointed out time and time again, doesn't actually provide a benefit over the 20% damage mitigation that PLD gets where eHP is concerned. WAR was never a "self-healing tank" either because self-healing was a *tiny* portion of total mitigation; actual damage reduction and the +healing/+hp from Defiance made up a *whole* lot more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eightbit
The only reason people get hung up on the idea that WAR is a "self healing" or "soak" tank (and then proceed to whine that WAR is suddenly losing its flavor and just becoming more like PLD) is because they're enthralled by big numbers: people see high hp and immediately think "soak tank" even if "soak tank" is a completely empty descriptor and they see big flashy heals from Inner Beast (and the paltry little bits of healing from Storm's Path and Bloodbath) and think "self healing" even if you could ignore the self healing completely with no real difference in healing required.
WAR is defined by Wrath stack generation and expenditure. As it stands, because Inner Beast doesn't scale and comes at the cost of the +healing that WAR needs to stay competitive with PLD, there's next to no reason to actually use your Wrath stacks. The changes the devs are making WAR *less* like PLD because you're going to have a reason to use your Wrath stacks on a regular basis, even if they are shifting the *mechanisms* that WAR uses for its mitigation away from self-healing *because self-healing is a terrible, terrible mechanism for a tank to rely upon*. WAR is going to actually play like it's *supposed* to. If you're upset because you don't get to see big flashy self-healing numbers from Inner Beast any more, it's only because you have no idea what WAR is actually about.
As to the OP, the only way that any kind of self-healing or shield mechanic is going to work as a mechanic that a tank can rely upon is if it scales with incoming damage rather than outgoing damage or max hp because those values scale at very different rates and the devs have no direct control over them such that, in low damage scenarios, they're horribly overpowered (overgeared WAR in AK) and, in high damage scenarios, they're effectively worthless (WAR in pretty much any 8-man content when measured against a PLD). -
12-13-2013, 09:04 AMZenBearOk so the last part of your post: I agree that a Max Health and incoming damage scaling would be best over the current "based on damage output" method. Tanks are not supposed to do tons of damage in a Holy Trinity game, and making any class a hybrid tends to make them generally sub-par.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
As for the first part: I disagree. WAR was supposed to be the self-heal soak tank, but it just doesn't work. That's why they're adding mitigation tools in the 2.1 patch to balance it. We don't think this because we are "enthralled by big numbers" as you say, it is because the WAR has self-healing abilities up the wazoo, and the +healing/+hp from Defiance (is there any damage reduction? and if so, was it always there from the start?) only further supports this. -
12-13-2013, 09:24 AMExstalExcept people know how to play Warrior now. If there was no issue, as per 2 WAR t5, then there would be no buff. However, since scaling issues are terrible for Warrior..well the rest we all know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
How do you figure it was supposed to be a self-heal, soak tank?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenBear
You realize that every single one of Warrior skills revolves around Wrath stacks?
Defiance - Generate Wrath stacks, increase HP
Inner Beast - Requires 5 Wrath stacks (only job skill that recovers HP)
Unchained - Requires 5 Wrath stacks
Steel Cyclone - Requires 5 Wrath stacks
Infuriate - Instantly generate 5 Wrath stacks
You could make the argument that Marauder is supposed to be a self-heal class. Notice how they are putting DR on Vengance (akin to Magic Barrier on BLM) and Damage down on Storm's Path (akin to Rage of Halone) and further reduction on the job skill (Inner Beast)? This could be the foundation for making a melee DPS class out of MRD without being completely OP otherwise, put DR all over the place and call it a daty. -
12-13-2013, 09:47 AMZenBearMarauder is a self-heal class; Warrior is the Tank Job of the Marauder Class; Warrior is the self-heal tank. Wrath stacks are the mechanic added to the self-heal class, but they don't change the fact that it is a self-heal class/job. In fact, it only reinforces it because Defiance increases HP (soak tank) and with full Wrath Stacks you gain bonus healing (self-heals also buffed). Warrior is a self-heal soak tank, as supported by its abilities and mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
2.1 is adding in the DR and Damage Down and reeling in the self-heal on Storm's Path because the self-heal focus isn't working out, so they need to add mitigation. This is the change, not the standard. -
12-13-2013, 09:57 AMKitruUp the wazoo? WAR has Storm's Path, Bloodbath, and Inner Beast. That's the extent of your "wazoo". 3 self-healing abilities, 2 of which are so weak that they're a job, do not define a tank as a "self-healing" tank. The only reason that people think that WAR is or ever *was* a self-healing tank is because Inner Beast flashes up a big, attention grabbing number even if that number is laughable in comparison to incoming damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenBear
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12-13-2013, 10:00 AMExstalIt actually changes it entirely. I wouldn't use Storm's Path because the heal is pathetic, Bloodbath is pathetic, Mercy Stroke follows suite. So what does that leave you with? Now if 3/5 or more job skills revolved around self healing, it'd make sense. But that's not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenBear
"Their approach to battle is one of brute force, as they rely on pure strength and good steel to crush enemies and sunder weapons."
In contrast, Paladin isn't so vague in their description;
Quote:
For centuries, the elite of the Sultansworn have served as personal bodyguards to the royal family of Ul'dah. Known as paladins, these men and women marry exquisite swordplay with stalwart shieldwork to create a style of combat uncompromising in its defense. Clad in brilliant silver armor, they charge fearlessly into battle, ever ready to lay down their lives for their liege.
To be a paladin is to protect, and those who choose to walk this path will become the iron foundation upon which the party's defense is built.
However this argument is pointless in the end, Warrior needed a buff if they hope to compete in content where Titan's fists would look like pillow hits. -
12-13-2013, 11:15 AMZenBearJust because the abilities are weak doesn't mean they aren't key to the identity of the class. And yes, compared to any other class and PLD/GLA in particular who have 0 (Cure and Bloodbath dont count, being cross-class), 3 is "up the wazoo." Now stop arguing semantics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
As Exstal has said, it's an irrelevant argument now that the 2.1 changes have been confirmed. This debate has very little to do with my original topic anyway. -
12-13-2013, 11:46 AMKitruExcept that, if this were true, people wouldn't be complaining about the WAR having an identity crisis because the number of self heals that a WAR has available is actually the same. If you want to talk about *usable* self-heals, that number is actually going up because, right now, there's no reason to use Storm's Path because it's both expensive and provides laughable self healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenBear
The amount that certain abilities actual impact performance is *exactly* what makes them key to the class's *actual* identity (as opposed to imposed identity applied based upon perception). The people that think that WAR is defined by self-healing only believe that because Inner Beast throws up a big self-heal number. If all that the class had was Bloodbath and Storm's Path, no one would say *anything* about WAR being a self-healing tank. It's the big number that Inner Beast throws up *alone* that makes people think that WAR is a self-healing tank, and, if you've actually looked at how much it really contributes, you'd realize that Inner Beast (in its current implementation) *isn't* actually key to the WAR playstyle.
WAR is, and always has been, defined by Wrath, not self-healing. It isn't bad implementation of the concept of a self-healing tank that is being fixed. They're addressing the fact that the wrong mitigation mechanic (self healing) was chosen to be placed upon the primary tool used as part of the playstyle mechanic (Wrath) that actually defines the class.
Calling a WAR a self-healing tank is like talking about a person's sequined shoes when asked to describe them: yes, it *does* describe their appearance in some way, but it completely misses the big picture of what you're actually supposed to be describing because you're so focused upon a tiny fragment that drew your attention.
I already explained exactly why your original idea was bad and what would need to be done to make it actually work. Keep in mind that you did actually say, in your original post, that you think that 2.1 is "on the verge of dangerously homogenizing WAR/PLD" so you opened it up for discussion. Anyone that has actually played the two classes or looked at anything concerning the changes beyond the terms "damage reduction" and "self healing" would realize that the two tanks are *still* going to play completely differently. WAR and PLD aren't being homogenized; the only reason you'd believe that is if you think that a class is defined by arbitrary attributes like damage type instead of the actual mechanics of the class: having a MNK deal slashing damage wouldn't do anything more to change its identity than what 2.1 is doing to WAR (except that WAR is also getting some much needed buffs to its *abysmal* CD suite, which, unless you think that a terrible CD suite is part of the WAR identity, is purely a balance change).Quote:
This debate has very little to do with my original topic anyway.
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12-13-2013, 12:20 PMZenBearHaha, wow... you are way too worked up about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
1. You claim that *usable* and *actual* identity defines the class; I disagree. The developers define the class because it's their creation. Part of that creation (an integral part) was self-healing, as is evident by the fact that MRD/WAR is the only class with self-only healing. Yes, Wrath is the defining mechanic between MRD and WAR. Still doesn't change the fact that MRD is part of WAR and therefore everything that defines MRD also defines WAR, ableit only partly so. On top of that, as I said, Wrath boosts 2 things: max hp, and healing. Both synergize with a "self-healing soak tank." You can deny it all you want, you'll still be wrong.
2. I'm one of these people you're talking about and I'm telling you you are wrong. It is the combination of Bloodbath, Storm's Path, Inner Beast and the +healing on Wrath stacks that make the WAR a self-healer. Don't try to tell me what I think, if you disagree with me then you are wrong.
3. Way to be insulting. Does it make you feel better to put me down? I bet it does.
4. Correct, I did mention it in passing. You are right, the classes are still very different. I admit my initial comment you are quoting was an exaggeration.
Seriously though, you need to calm down. Agree to disagree and move on with your life. -
12-13-2013, 03:24 PMExstal
Your original idea is more than likely something Dark Knight would use. Probably why they are moving Warrior away from using self-heal (even though it doesn't work anyway).
That being said, I disagree with your point of view but that would be arguing semantics.