Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean that is not remotely the discords fault and I’d argue some of that is even developer playerbase mismatch the playerbase is attributing to each other.

Cosmic was totally fine as casual content. It makes sense that A ranks are harder, not engaging with the higher A ranks doesn’t block you from anything. Just because content is causal doesn’t mean 100% of it should be totally accessible to the lowest common denominator. Cosmic struck a really good balance there as literally the only thing not accessible to super casual people is the achievement for Golding every mission. Like even the “of the stars” titles can be earned from B ranks if you want. As for chaotic this seems to have devolved into casuals angry that the high end community was prioritised over them without realising the high end community doesn’t like chaotic either and yet somehow this is the high end community’s fault?

As for forked itself that just circles back to the original problem. If you can’t get enough people even randomly to force forked open then how can you also be mad at the discords for filling squares own void of content design

---

Last time I checked on Aether only Cactuar had finished Cosmic. Adamantoise has abandoned it. I don't think it remotely reached "fine."

I suspect the fundamental problem is that SE is not listening (else after the reaction to CAR, FT would never have been released), and angry WoLs have to sling their fireballs at someone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tyintheron

Except that's how the system is set up. Clearly the INTENT is to allow a grab bag of randos to blindly stumble their way to victory rather than just premade groups galore. I get that that doesn't really WORK, but it's clearly still the INTENT, so waving around the word "rights" as if it's some set-in-stone rule feels like an overblown way to self-justify the hostility on display.

The amount of "if you even POTENTIALLY inconvenience me it's ok for me to be a jerk to you" in this thread is really, really troubling.

---

Most people aren't even saying it's ok to be a jerk, or to be rude, and again you can use the various reporting procedures that exist if someone is, be it SE's or the Discord server's, so they can investigate the individual.

They're just making the point that the Discords are there to help with something that probably won't get setup successfully any other way because of the coordination it requires to prevent a wipe. Typically these Discords have someone who does callouts. You simply move however they say and then you clear. This is how I got my BA clear. They often enjoy doing this so much that they continue doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, to help people. That's it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ajisaii

This thread is a lot funnier when you realise a lot of people here are pushing 40 arguing why it's okay to kill randoms and bm their corpse in a video game because their discord buddies didn't get into the raid

---

Generally speaking, they aren't "buddies". There are 15-20,000 in most of these discords and over 40,000 in one of the others. They are randoms, just that these randoms were able to paste a discord link into their discord client.

Saying things like "we wont rez you" does sound like griefing to me and should definitely 100% be a reportable offense regardless of the content and context it was said in.

At that point its basically just bullying. I hope OP reported them and they at least get a slap on the wrist but given SE likes their content creators more than the average player I highly doubt it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kasumii

Saying things like "we wont rez you" does sound like griefing to me and should definitely 100% be a reportable offense regardless of the content and context it was said in.

At that point its basically just bullying. I hope OP reported them and they at least get a slap on the wrist but given SE likes their content creators more than the average player I highly doubt it.

---

Mr. Happy should've been banned for pimping that disgusting breakfast cereal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yes it’s intended for a grab bag of randoms to complete it even if that doesn’t work at all.

However there is a difference between “grab bag of randoms” and fully organised run where 1-2 spaces is taken by a random. If “grab bag of randoms” actually worked the organisation wouldn’t be necessary anyway

As the person who responded to OP stated they still offered a hand but in a grab bag of randoms nobody owes you anything anyway beyond bot actively griefing. Especially since the person who replied to OP showed OP died due to their own mistake, nobody killed them

So by the standards of grab bag of randoms the organised group did nothing wrong anyway

---

Except the "fully organized group" isn't the INTENT, it's the player-created EXCEPTION. They know the rules, and they know the way it works. Getting mad at the world for not bending to you and your friends' almighty will is the messed up part, here.

Imagine that a new set of Pokemon cards come out, and if you can buy the whole box, you get the whole set, guaranteed! So you and your buddies at the Lower East Side Pokemon Fight Club agree to buy one pack each - your group wants the whole set, and if you can't get all the packs you won't get that guaranteed win!

But then - HORRORS - a little girl comes in and has the GALL to not recognize how tough it was to get 25 40-year-old Pokemon nerds into a single shop at the same time. And when you explain to her you guys really NEED all the cards because if you can't have ALL the cards life isn't worth living, and organizing big groups of nerds is hard, and then hint that you can't guarantee she won't have a horrible accident on the way home if she sticks around.

But she just wants to buy a pack. She heard this new set was cool! And, EVEN WORSE, she's third-last in line because Jerry and Steve were 5 minutes late. So in spite of your group's allegedly-justified moral outrage, she buys her pack anyway. Because there's no rule that says she can't, and she saved up, just like the rest of you.

Then you slash her bike's tyres on the way out, and congratulate yourselves on a job well done because HOW DARE SHE. We're clearly in the right because... something about Discord, for some reason..?

That's kinda the vibe, here.

And, I've gotta be honest - "the organized group did nothing wrong anyway" is a heck of a take to have, given the acknowledged "they deliberately got someone killed and refused to rez them" part of the story. You can say you would've done the same because you feel your prioities outweigh everyone else's all the time, but it doesn't make it "nothing wrong."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Most people aren't even saying it's ok to be a jerk, or to be rude, and again you can use the various reporting procedures that exist if someone is, be it SE's or the Discord server's, so they can investigate the individual.

They're just making the point that the Discords are there to help with something that probably won't get setup successfully any other way because of the coordination it requires to prevent a wipe. Typically these Discords have someone who does callouts. You simply move however they say and then you clear. This is how I got my BA clear. They often enjoy doing this so much that they continue doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, to help people. That's it...

---

I understand the point trying to be made. I just disagree with the "people aren't saying it's okay to be a jerk" part when the defenders of causing someone a death on purpose, followed by refusing to rez them, are claiming those are somehow justified actions.

I mean, you can say you feel it's justified because of whatever reason you want, but there's not some kind of lack of clarity about whether or not that kind of thing is an uncool - even reportable - thing to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Maybe the illustrious citizens just want to see inside the gate.

---

Then they don't need to snipe organized groups to do that.

I think that nails it. That is the vibe I am also getting and have been getting from the community for a while. Try doing OC at peak times on aether. I have had people barge into shout chat demanding half the instance leaves so their beloved discord group can do FT.
And that just makes me unreasonably angry. What right do you have to tell others to leave and make room for you and your clique?

I think the whole system SE made with FT is just backwards.

Its a piece of content clearly designed for the upper .1% of players (yet again) but with entry requirements that make it look and feel like CLL or dalriada from Bozja.
They need to desperately rework the entire system completely. Remove FT and put it in its own bubble like DRS and give us some actual decent casual content like CLL back. Have it give us coins or gear upgrade mats. There is so much they COULD have done and instead they pandered to the hardcore crowd yet again in a move that leaves both casuals and hardcore players dissatisfied...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atreus

Then they don't need to snipe organized groups to do that.

---

Are you done with FT? Because if not, you're walking a very dangerous line here.

Neither you nor I know whether, in any particular instance, players are "sniping" or simply trying to enter public content.

Fortunately for you and yours, most people don't read the forums. Including apparently SE. Because if most players did, the current firestorm would look like a sparkler next to the Sun.

What many "snipers" will experience is being told to get off the platform or leave the instance entirely, because the important people have just showed up and are on a schedule for their next reclear.

Having been denied the ability to interact with FT, and been given bugger all else to do of any merit for nearly 12 months, they may very well conclude that the only way they can actually interact with FT is to scupper as many Discord runs as possible.

Hey maybe they will even start their own Discord. Something like FF14FFT. And you will be well and truly forked.

Meh... if the game was any good I wouldn't be typing these idle speculations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Are you done with FT? Because if not, you're walking a very dangerous line here.

Neither you nor I know whether, in any particular instance, players are "sniping" or simply trying to enter public content.

Fortunately for you and yours, most people don't read the forums. Including apparently SE. Because if most players did, the current firestorm would look like a sparkler next to the Sun.

What many "snipers" will experience is being told to get off the platform or leave the instance entirely, because the important people have just showed up and are on a schedule for their next reclear.

Having been denied the ability to interact with FT, and been given bugger all else to do of any merit for nearly 12 months, they may very well conclude that the only way they can actually interact with FT is to scupper as many Discord runs as possible.

Hey maybe they will even start their own Discord. Something like FF14FFT. And you will be well and truly forked.

Meh... if the game was any good I wouldn't be typing these idle speculations.

---

Adding on to that: Nothing is stopping those organised discord cliques to... step of the platform themselves and find a new instance if they really really really do not want to deal with those evil people standing on THEIR platform in THEIR instance that THEY claimed a week ago.

The absolute elitism boggles my mind. And is a reason why I will refuse to even attempt FT this time around. I still dont get why they would put Ex/Savage/Anything higher than CLL levels of difficulty into the PvE mode clearly meant for the more casual crowd who has no interest in watching 3 hour videos, memorising 30 different raid plans and reserving 6 to 10 hours for their FT run a day...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kasumii

Adding on to that: Nothing is stopping those organised discord cliques to... step of the platform themselves and find a new instance if they really really really do not want to deal with those evil people [...]

---

The horrendous instance gacha and weather system is kinda stopping them...

I've noticed that some people around here just have a not at all concealed massive hate bias for people who raid, people who can't tolerate anything that shows raiders in a good or even neutral light, no, they must all be bad, toxic, elitist and psychopaths. Meanwhile, the casual player is seen as an angel, there is no such thing as a toxic casual to them (despite the very easily observable fact of people who claim to be casuals doing nothing but spewing toxic hate at raiders every chance they get).

But on the whole FT issue, just imagine for a moment, you are a raid leader who went through the pure organisational nightmare of scraping through signup lists and spreadsheeting a good group of 48 people who have the prerequisite role and phantom job combinations so you can progress or clear the content, you then get together on the day and collectively slam into Jeffroy the expedition coordinator until all of you are in the same instance, you sigh in relief and wait up to 40 minutes for the mirage weather to spawn, then Johnny Random slides up on his ancient airship with unknown prog point and phantom job availability, says nothing to anyone and tosses in 3 ciphers. You all enter the content and oops, your main Ranger/Berserker/Oracle was left out of the tower and no one can replace them because it's either not levelled or they haven't gotten the random drop soul shard, now the content is unclearable and oh no, Johnny Random has pulled the first boss, now you're all dead and lv19 again.

Maybe some of you can stand to see the problem from the other side and know that neither side is technically in the wrong here, it's all due to the way the content is designed and we should be asking for a change there instead of happily stabbing each other for peanuts.

Then the problem with "snipers" (read normal people engaging with the content in the way the developers intended for better or worse) cant be that bad can it? They could just sit out the tower weather, wait for it to pop up again because it is very unlikely the evil evil snipers are still there at that point or they can just play the instance gacha for another half hour to find a more accommodating instance.

What they shouldn't do is tell other players to piss off and leave their instance or tell them "lmao we will TK you and not rez you if you dare to come with us". I dont know.

In my opinion if they really do not wish to engage and interact with randoms then its on them to find an instance or a way around them. Not on the random who just wants to do the content (In an MMORPG he is paying a sub for by the way. Just like you and me)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kasumii

Then the problem with "snipers" (read normal people engaging with the content in the way the developers intended for better or worse) cant be that bad can it? They could just sit out the tower weather, wait for it to pop up again because it is very unlikely the evil evil snipers are still there at that point or they can just play the instance gacha for another half hour to find a more accommodating instance.

---

Raiders don't have infinite time to spend getting into the tower, my man. A lot of us have jobs and families and the raid itself is already a pretty long ordeal (1 hr+). If everything goes perfect, you can barely fit in two full FT runs in a 4 hour period because of all the time wasted just getting inside. Wasting more time to avoid offending a sniper or two just... doesn't make any sense.

For those who want to know how JP is doing in all of this, here we are.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...nfo_regarding/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Router

Raiders don't have infinite time to spend getting into the tower, my man. A lot of us have jobs and families and the raid itself is already a pretty long ordeal (1 hr+). If everything goes perfect, you can barely fit in two full FT runs in a 4 hour period because of all the time wasted just getting inside. Wasting more time to avoid offending a sniper or two just... doesn't make any sense.

---

So why do you get dibs on the tower then? Just because you joined a discord? Johnny Random also doesn't have an infinite amount of time and maybe just wishes to engage with the content in the way it is currently in the game.
It goes both ways. I understand the frustration. But you also have to understand that just because some discord organized a run it doesn't give them lordship over the instance they're in. And it is not on the random who is playing by the games rules to adjust to your private discord/organisers rules.

But its a futile discussion. I was merely offering a solution for the "rampant" "sniper" problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Router

Raiders don't have infinite time to spend getting into the tower, my man. A lot of us have jobs and families and the raid itself is already a pretty long ordeal (1 hr+). If everything goes perfect, you can barely fit in two full FT runs in a 4 hour period because of all the time wasted just getting inside. Wasting more time to avoid offending a sniper or two just... doesn't make any sense.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

But on the whole FT issue, just imagine for a moment, you are a raid leader who went through the pure organisational nightmare of scraping through signup lists and spreadsheeting a good group of 48 people who have the prerequisite role and phantom job combinations so you can progress or clear the content, you then get together on the day and collectively slam into Jeffroy the expedition coordinator until all of you are in the same instance, you sigh in relief and wait up to 40 minutes for the mirage weather to spawn, then Johnny Random slides up on his ancient airship with unknown prog point and phantom job availability, says nothing to anyone and tosses in 3 ciphers. You all enter the content and oops, your main Ranger/Berserker/Oracle was left out of the tower and no one can replace them because it's either not levelled or they haven't gotten the random drop soul shard, now the content is unclearable and oh no, Johnny Random has pulled the first boss, now you're all dead and lv19 again.

---

Do you two have any idea how ridiculous this sounds?

Apparently this whole process is an absolute nightmare, so you are trying to elicit sympathy?

Has it occurred to either of you that clearing FT is not actually compulsory?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Do you two have any idea how ridiculous this sounds?

Apparently this whole process is an absolute nightmare, so you are trying to elicit sympathy?

Has it occurred to either of you that clearing FT is not actually compulsory?

---

It is compulsary. For Ego Andy's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kasumii

Johnny Random also doesn't have an infinite amount of time and maybe just wishes to engage with the content in the way it is currently in the game.

---

Johnny Random should respect his own time and just avoid the whole thing. Joining as a random is extremely unlikely to get you a clear, which is partly why JP is complaining about FT so much as well. It does suck, but pretty much the only reasonable way to actually approach the content is to use Discord to organize runs. The only randoms I know of that have cleared were people who joined a Discord-hosted run and then joined the server to listen to callouts, lol.

I don't blame Johnny Random for joining, though. The entire system is dumb and it should REAAAAALLY give more of a hint about how punishing FT can be if you're unprepared.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Router

Johnny Random should respect his own time and just avoid the whole thing. Joining as a random is extremely unlikely to get you a clear, which is partly why JP is complaining about FT so much as well. It does suck, but pretty much the only reasonable way to actually approach the content is to use Discord to organize runs. The only randoms I know of that have cleared were people who joined a Discord-hosted run and then joined the server to listen to callouts, lol.

I don't blame Johnny Random for joining, though. The entire system is dumb and it should REAAAAALLY give more of a hint about how punishing FT can be if you're unprepared.

---

Finally something we can both agree on.

It does need a desperate rework. As I said before: have it like DRS in a seperate instance which you can queue for as a premade and give us a CLL equivalent in the actual zone instead. Raiders wont need to worry about their place, the entire island hopping gacha can be circumvented and it'd make organising runs much easier for the groups who do it. I think this is in the best interest of every kind of player, casual and hardcore both. And it'd actually make both playerbases happy for once instead of sowing more malcontent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Do you two have any idea how ridiculous this sounds?

Apparently this whole process is an absolute nightmare, so you are trying to elicit sympathy?

Has it occurred to either of you that clearing FT is not actually compulsory?

---

No, I'm pointing out that the 1 random person that chooses not to leave when politely asked to (at no cost to them, I might add) is lacking in empathy. People arguing that the 1 random person deserves to be there is also partially making the argument that 1 person is more important than the efforts of 48 people.

Also, clearing FT not being compulsory can be turned right back to the random players who take spots from organised groups, why is it so important for them to enter that it's being argued that they have more of a right to be there than discord groups? It's not compulsory to clear, no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

No, I'm pointing out that the 1 random person that chooses not to leave when politely asked to (at no cost to them, I might add) is lacking in empathy. People arguing that the 1 random person deserves to be there is also partially making the argument that 1 person is more important than the efforts of 48 people.

Also, clearing FT not being compulsory can be turned right back to the random players who take spots from organised groups, why is it so important for them to enter that it's being argued that they have more of a right to be there than discord groups? It's not compulsory to clear, no?

---

I see, so it's a sort of numerical might is right, plus you've been through a terrible ordeal organizing it.

I suspect a key issue is that nowhere else in the game is there a situation in which someone will be asked to leave, politely or otherwise. So in that sense, SE has done something unique.

I still can't imagine why you engage with the content, though. Like if you really wanted to pressure SE, with your organizational skills you could have organized a boycott.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

No, I'm pointing out that the 1 random person that chooses not to leave when politely asked to (at no cost to them, I might add) is lacking in empathy. People arguing that the 1 random person deserves to be there is also partially making the argument that 1 person is more important than the efforts of 48 people.

Also, clearing FT not being compulsory can be turned right back to the random players who take spots from organised groups, why is it so important for them to enter that it's being argued that they have more of a right to be there than discord groups? It's not compulsory to clear, no?

---

It is content in the game they pay for. This isnt some "Haha gotcha" moment for you.
Nobody is saying one person is worth more than 48 others. We are saying they are both equal. You have no more right telling Johnny Random to go away than Johnny Random has a right to participate in the content. It is not on Johnny Random (or the discords). This entire system is flawed and is 100% SEs fault. Johnny Random just plays by the games rules and participates in the cipher lottery.

Basic empathy also goes both ways. Basic empathy is *not* bowing down to the mighty discord/streamer overlords who told them to "piss off" (But Im saying it nicely uwu).

If Johnny Random gets in is it basic empathy to then tell them "We wont rez you."? Doesn't sound very empathic to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tyintheron

Except the "fully organized group" isn't the INTENT

---

If that's true, then go and PUG it? SE left their "organized group content" calling card on it - which is limited rez. If it was the intent, we'd all be pugging it like we did CLL, DR and Dalriada in Shadowbringers.

Quote:

---

given the acknowledged "they deliberately got someone killed and refused to rez them"

---

By all accounts I've read, the people who die are not killed on purpose. Rather, they are killed by a tank buster they stood in because they don't know the mechanics. This seems overwhelmingly likely to happen to people who enter on their own without discord callouts. Rezzing is a risk due to the their lack of cooperation with the rest of the players there and the fact their lack of coordination can cause the rest of them to fail. I'm sure nobody has a problem linking them the discords if they genuinely don't know about them.

Quote:

---

I understand the point trying to be made. I just disagree with the "people aren't saying it's okay to be a jerk" part

---

It's important to also understand that these forums are cross-region. People in the EU region are, on average, far more blunt and more sweaty when it comes to raids. They will more often call people out directly and be rude in dungeons. For some that may actually be the language barrier where pleasantries get lost in translation, but for others it's very cultural. In comparison, the NA region is pretty casual overall - both its attitudes and its raiders. I can always rely on an average NA player to just have returned to the game after a long break or to have a miniscule amount of playtime, and to thus be way more chill - and underprepared.

So here on the forums we have a mix of NA and EU posters but it is actually reflected in the game as well; in my experience the EU region players will bluntly call you out for things in the most rude way even in dungeons/MSQ content, demand blog, in ways the NA region just doesn't really care about much in comparison.

Don't get me wrong. There are loads of truly nice, kind-hearted people in the EU region and that's probably even the majority, but in an average day, you will actually run into such "blunt" players in the EU region and that's been my experience on any day or any year I've logged into the EU worlds, but is virtually never the case while playing in NA.

Also, while we may be pleasant in the game, we tell the truth here on the forums. To the developers, and to eachother. And while it may not be easy to read sometimes, it's important for there to be a space where you can get the truth. So if I say the word "snipe" on the forums, I'm being blunt, but that doesn't mean I'd say it to them directly in the game, because that would be rude. But on the forums? Again, this is where you come to get the truth, or to ask posters to figure out the truth together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kasumii

I have had people barge into shout chat demanding half the instance leaves so their beloved discord group can do FT.

---

Never seen that. Depending on the context, it could be a joke or the person may not actually represent the discord itself. It's hard for a discord server to regulate the actions of 48 players in the game. But you absolutely shouldn't leave, because you can't guarantee everyone else will. The discord servers are more likely to try and find an instance with the appropriate space, because that's a lot more logical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Having been denied the ability to interact with FT, and been given bugger all else to do of any merit for nearly 12 months, they may very well conclude that the only way they can actually interact with FT is to scupper as many Discord runs as possible.

Hey maybe they will even start their own Discord. Something like FF14FFT. And you will be well and truly forked.

---

The thing is that there are already multiple discords that do it on some data centers / regions. I believe they have to concede coordinating with eachother to avoid drama because of the way it works or when participation drops.

And what this all comes back to, regardless of the point being made, is that the design of this just doesn't work and SE needs to make it like DRS if they want it to be a High-End duty, and like CLL/Dalriada/DR if they want it to be casual. Those methods worked about as well as they are going to for the respective difficulties.

F**ked Tower really is something. Rarely has an issue caused this level of division both in-game AND in the forum/social media communities.

Congrats to SE for creating something that has caused such a huge, and completely avoidable, divide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kasumii

It is content in the game they pay for. This isnt some "Haha gotcha" moment for you.
Nobody is saying one person is worth more than 48 others. We are saying they are both equal. You have no more right telling Johnny Random to go away than Johnny Random has a right to participate in the content. It is not on Johnny Random (or the discords). This entire system is flawed and is 100% SEs fault. Johnny Random just plays by the games rules and participates in the cipher lottery.

Basic empathy also goes both ways. Basic empathy is *not* bowing down to the mighty discord/streamer overlords who told them to "piss off" (But Im saying it nicely uwu).

If Johnny Random gets in is it basic empathy to then tell them "We wont rez you."? Doesn't sound very empathic to me.

---

Let me ask you then, if you go through all the effort to get 48 people into one instance to clear FT and someone chucks in 3 ciphers and takes the spot of a key role, which then makes the content unclearable, would you happily accept them? No annoyance at all? Just pure acceptance to raise them happily even though they can walk themselves into a trap and annihilate 23 other people? It's not a gotcha to point out the fact that it works both ways, if one says clearing FT isn't compulsory to discount the organised group, then the random person also has no reason compelling them to be there and can freely leave.

It's the same as people raving on about how good third party sites are in clearing out "prog liars" from their savage PF, discord organisation is just done to improve the chances of a clear.

Like it or not, it's not against the ToS to politely ask people to allow the organised group to enter uncontested. It's also not against ToS to not heal and raise someone not in your party, it may be rude to the person that just died, but it's still not against ToS.

I honestly want to know the reasoning behind the twisted logic that people seem to have about how discord groups are evil for wanting to clear the content and that it's not compulsory to clear the content, yet it's somehow also imperative for the random player to be able to enter the tower and have fun in the content? It doesn't make sense to me, it just looks like 2 sets of standards and reeks of bias against organised groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“Sniper” is just a colloquial term from BA discourse. Few people actually mean it in an intentionally offensive way

---

If they don't mean it offensively, then they probably need to adopt a different term if their intention is not to be hostile. Because you can see from people in this very thread that that term has hostility attached to it. They can just use something like randoms or unexpected members. It's also a way they can actively call out those still using the more hostile term and help police their own community's image.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kasumii

if they really do not wish to engage and interact with randoms

---

These discords are no stranger to randoms due to BA, and some of them do welcome them in, despite that they may be taking a spot from someone who planned their role in the raid. It's less likely they are taking someone's spot when it's old because they won't always have 48 players signed up, but FT is new, so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I've noticed that some people around here just have a not at all concealed massive hate bias for people who raid

---

This is true as well but I think it stems from anxiety. Anxiety leads to not engaging with the raids or discords and that is sometimes expressed as "us versus them". When if they actually joined the raids and discords they'd find plenty of nice and chill people.

How I know this is because I struggle with anxiety myself in this area but have still managed some of the raids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I honestly want to know the reasoning behind the twisted logic that people seem to have about how discord groups are evil for wanting to clear the content and that it's not compulsory to clear the content, yet it's somehow also imperative for the random player to be able to enter the tower and have fun in the content? It doesn't make sense to me, it just looks like 2 sets of standards and reeks of bias against organised groups.

---

Resentment and frustration, aimed at the wrong people, for CBU3 utterly screwing up what should have been an easy and simple implementation of Field Ops?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kasumii

I think that nails it. That is the vibe I am also getting and have been getting from the community for a while. Try doing OC at peak times on aether. I have had people barge into shout chat demanding half the instance leaves so their beloved discord group can do FT.
And that just makes me unreasonably angry. What right do you have to tell others to leave and make room for you and your clique?

---

Good grief, are they? I can see the argument for inside FT and what they may or may not do there, but they had the gall to tell the rest of the outside instance to leave? I hope the rest of the instance told them where to get off. That's the ultimate in entitled thinking. They can go instance hop or bring 72 total people to "hold" the instance for them. They can't expect the rest of the community to leave just to suit them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Let me ask you then, if you go through all the effort to get 48 people into one instance to clear FT and someone chucks in 3 ciphers and takes the spot of a key role, which then makes the content unclearable, would you happily accept them? No annoyance at all? Just pure acceptance to raise them happily even though they can walk themselves into a trap and annihilate 23 other people? It's not a gotcha to point out the fact that it works both ways, if one says clearing FT isn't compulsory to discount the organised group, then the random person also has no reason compelling them to be there and can freely leave.

It's the same as people raving on about how good third party sites are in clearing out "prog liars" from their savage PF, discord organisation is just done to improve the chances of a clear.

Like it or not, it's not against the ToS to politely ask people to allow the organised group to enter uncontested. It's also not against ToS to not heal and raise someone not in your party, it may be rude to the person that just died, but it's still not against ToS.

---

Yes I would. Believe it or not. I know some raidbros fail to understand that. This is clearly the intent behind the entry system. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.

And I actually agree, it does work both ways. If they leave? Great! If they don't? Refer to my other post then. If you really don't wanna deal with randoms just instance hop again, wait for the weather to change or whatever because according to you the run is over anyways as soon as the random gets in. So either way you waste time (according to yourself). At least if you instance hop you don't need to spend that time leveling up again eh?

And while it may not be a ToS violation I am pretty sure telling people you will not rez them on purpose is actually harassment (I would count it as such). But that's for the GMs to decide at the end of the day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Resentment and frustration, aimed at the wrong people, for CBU3 utterly screwing up what should have been an easy and simple implementation of Field Ops?

---

I suppose people always want to have a boogeyman. Mentors, casuals, raiders, now discord groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kasumii

It is content in the game they pay for. This isnt some "Haha gotcha" moment for you.
Nobody is saying one person is worth more than 48 others. We are saying they are both equal. You have no more right telling Johnny Random to go away than Johnny Random has a right to participate in the content. It is not on Johnny Random (or the discords). This entire system is flawed and is 100% SEs fault. Johnny Random just plays by the games rules and participates in the cipher lottery.

Basic empathy also goes both ways. Basic empathy is *not* bowing down to the mighty discord/streamer overlords who told them to "piss off" (But Im saying it nicely uwu).

If Johnny Random gets in is it basic empathy to then tell them "We wont rez you."? Doesn't sound very empathic to me.

---

They aren't both equal though. One spent the time to organize a group, plan out all the required jobs, make sure they have the numbers to clear, and ensure everyone knew the mechs going into it to ensure the highest success rate. They then spent the time ensuring everyone was in the same instance. Once everyone met all those conditions they then had to wait for the weather of that instance to spawn. The other just showed up and popped a cypher. Especially given there's multiple instances where they could wipe a run and you can't ensure beforehand they understand the requirements or mechanics. If i'm running a tower run why would I not try to ensure the success of the group who put forth the effort over one random? Its fine if the group is ok with them tagging along but forgive me if i'm not sympathetic for the person who ignored a polite request not to join. Call me toxic but I 100% support putting them on the floor so they don't have the chance to ruin hours of work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YovelaLindswood

They aren't both equal though.

---

They are equal in the eyes of CBU3, just by the fact that they are able to enter and participate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YovelaLindswood

They aren't both equal though. One spent the time to organize a group, plan out all the required jobs, make sure they have the numbers to clear, and ensure everyone knew the mechs going into it to ensure the highest success rate. They then spent the time ensuring everyone was in the same instance. Once everyone met all those conditions they then had to wait for the weather of that instance to spawn. The other just showed up and popped a cypher. Especially given there's multiple instances where they could wipe a run and you can't ensure beforehand they understand the requirements or mechanics. If i'm running a tower run why would I not try to ensure the success of the group who put forth the effort over one random? Its fine if the group is ok with them tagging along but forgive me if i'm not sympathetic for the person who ignored a polite request not to join. Call me toxic but I 100% support putting them on the floor so they don't have the chance to ruin hours of work.

---

Funny how "showing up and popping a cipher" is all you have to do to enter this piece of content.

They are still both equal. The random pays their sub just like you and me and you are not more entitled to the content just because you organized it. This isnt your savage PF where you get to kick people for not playing ball. These are people playing the game by the games rules. Like it or not.

And yes. I will gladly call you toxic for that and hope we never ever have to interact in-game in any way shape or form.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YovelaLindswood

They aren't both equal though. One spent the time to organize a group, plan out all the required jobs, make sure they have the numbers to clear, and ensure everyone knew the mechs going into it to ensure the highest success rate. They then spent the time ensuring everyone was in the same instance. Once everyone met all those conditions they then had to wait for the weather of that instance to spawn. The other just showed up and popped a cypher. Especially given there's multiple instances where they could wipe a run and you can't ensure beforehand they understand the requirements or mechanics. If i'm running a tower run why would I not try to ensure the success of the group who put forth the effort over one random? Its fine if the group is ok with them tagging along but forgive me if i'm not sympathetic for the person who ignored a polite request not to join. Call me toxic but I 100% support putting them on the floor so they don't have the chance to ruin hours of work.

---

I personally wouldn't support putting the random player on the floor, because that would be MPK and 100% reportable. But if the random player somehow dies, it's fair to leave them on the floor for the highest chance to not impact the progression of the other 47 people.

It's also worth noting that once the random player has died, some raid leaders do try to negotiate with them. If they are open to cooperating and are close to the prog point of the group, the group might invite them on, or if they understand the difficulty of the content now and want to leave, the leader can call for a raise on them and let them leave without delevelling. Raid leaders aren't heartless monsters after all, most are reasonable and don't want to just sour the experience for the random.

Its actually pretty simple, since people throwing here the "reports" through the the thread, lets see it from another perspective, i would let the random join, and if see him death on the ground because he didnt watch a guide and prepared for the fight i would straight up let the 47players report him because of griefing, which would probably work because if killing someone is against the ToS then there is probably without question a way to find a hole in the ToS for "He is a burden to the group, so he griefed 47 players"

I agree this is pure toxicity trying to stop random players joining in because they've got a premade group i can't believe they can't see how anti social that actually is. The game allows randoms in. Simple as that, you can harass, shame, reject etc but that's a reflection on you and your 'amazing chill discord' not them. I've only just reached this content myself and planned to try it out but reading all this is very off putting. I have no desire to seek out any of these discords at all so far. Also Ieaving somebody dead is reportable because you're disrupting their enjoyment of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Its actually pretty simple, since people throwing here the "reports" through the the thread, lets see it from another perspective, i would let the random join, and if see him death on the ground because he didnt watch a guide and prepared for the fight i would straight up let the 47players report him because of griefing, which would probably work because if killing someone is against the ToS then there is probably without question a way to find a hole in the ToS for "He is a burden to the group, so he griefed 47 players"

---

You would be wrong because there absolutely is not any hole in the ToS where a GM is going to punish someone for being a burden to others with bad play. There would have to be solid proof they had violated the griefing ToS parameters and just being bad or inexperienced is not going to fulfill that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Its actually pretty simple, since people throwing here the "reports" through the the thread, lets see it from another perspective, i would let the random join, and if see him death on the ground because he didnt watch a guide and prepared for the fight i would straight up let the 47players report him because of griefing, which would probably work because if killing someone is against the ToS then there is probably without question a way to find a hole in the ToS for "He is a burden to the group, so he griefed 47 players"

---

You can absolutely do that if you so choose. The key difference to me is that someone saying "I will intentionally not rez you" and then doing just that is a lot easier to prove and much more clearly targeted harassment towards said player than saying "this random INTENTIONALLY AND MALICIOUSLY killed our run". But feel absolutely free to report any random you see. That's what the report button is for after all.

I see a massive difference here. You don't have to agree, just my own personal take.