Don't do chaotic raid again

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Originally Posted by LuciaMirain

I have run it now a couple of times. And my thoughts are: there should be a way to get to and from the inner circle. Sure, you can get IN again but you cant really get out without dying and being raised.
The fight isnt really hard, it is just very punishing if one person dies at the wrong spot.
What irks me the most is the reward system. If you find a team that can actually clear it, people arent really incentivised to go and clear it again and again. We got lucky this morning and had 5 clears in a row bc people decided it was worth their time during a bonus window. But still. Considering the amount of time you put into this fight, it is pretty ridic that you only get so few rewards. You literally arent rewarded for playing well and clearing often. You are only rewarded if you drag someone new through it and even so it matters how many new people there are. And then on top of that the mount costs 99 demimateria.....99!!!! Ive spent hours on this fight and Im only at 28!! If they change the reward system I will be happy. But as of right now it is just not something I will want to spend my time doing after I get home from work. IT is simply too timeconsuming for the tiny amount of rewards you get. :/

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be happy, i spend over 10+ hrs, and only seen up to looming lmao
not a single PF can do it reliably, even if i do everything perfect.
i fear i might have to become... a prog liar... (jk jk) but for real, this is what a lot of people do now.

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Originally Posted by Roehann

From one of the founders and creators....

"If you ever wondered where Discord came from, you have an answer now, and FFXI, Square Enix’s first MMO, is at the center of it. Discord co-founder Stanislav Vishnevskiy made the comments in a recent interview with Famitsu, where he said he was already working on an early version of Discord while in school, inspired by how much fun he was having in Vana’diel (thanks, Siliconera).

Vishnevskiy said he wanted to create an app that let him talk to friends and other people playing FFXI who enjoyed it as much as he did. Work on the app apparently didn’t progress far beyond that simple concept, but Vishnevskiy was still keen on it when he met Jason Citron, Discord’s other co-founder."

I have seen articles addressing what you listed, but from the founder, this is what he said..

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Interesting, I hadn't heard that before. Today I learned!

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Originally Posted by brinn12

Forcing people to do 24-man high-end duties when, for a decade, all we needed was 8-man to reach BiS, makes no sense. Content isn't for everyone and PF will not be popular long term. So keep the same substats as 8-man Savage.

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Nobody's forced to do anything. You can do all content in the game just fine with pre-Chaotic bis and it'll be outdated next content drop, but I think having more gearing options for the now is good actually. If you don't wanna do Chaotic to get slightly better, don't do it, but there's no reason to deprive other players of options just because you don't wanna run the content.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

I never said Chaotic shouldn't reward BiS. I never said Chaotic can't be an alternative to other BiS content. Pray read again.

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Perhaps you should read what I said again, because I'm afraid I read you just fine; you want all sources of BiS to be the same substats. Boring. BiS could (and should) be made of pieces from more than just savage and tomes. You should be required to do all high end content to get true BiS.

Getting it from two sources is boring. Some pieces should come savage. Some from chaotic. Some from tome. Some from Criterion. Mix and match. Not only would you gear faster, which this game desperately needs, but variation in substats would be highly beneficial to jobs within the same role whose gear sets/melds aren't entirely compatible sometimes (i.e. VPR vs NIN). Current BiS being made of pieces from four pieces of content (savage, tome, FRU, chaotic) is the most interesting gear has been in years.

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Originally Posted by Ravennes

Strats currently are impossible to recover, as you'll just get revived somewhere els
if anyone important dies before tower > Wipe
anyone dies after > recoverable
if anyone dies during looming > immediately Lb3 and pray atleast a few towers get soaked to not wipe

... not really a fan of this xD

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Towers are the biggest wall. Having only one healer outside makes recovering difficult unless you have RDM/SMNs because those inside cannot go out but those out can go in, which is why the 3H on the outside platforms strat is probably the overall best, even though no strat is perfect right now.

100% agree, I am noticing the content isnt that popular anyways on the NA servers. only like 3 PFs at time max im seeing for it compared to the ultimate raid. When will FFxiv just go back to giving us proper grinds for relics instead of all this content no one plays.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

There is nothing less fun than depending on 23 other people to not screw up
The playerbase has shown it cannot handle 24 man content when it's even simple stuff like regular alliance raids
It's an absolute mess in chaotic

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I did the savages and got burned the heck out from other people constantly wiping even though they supposedly had cleared before. Week after week. I do not have confidence that a group of 24 people can do it when 8 cannot.
I don't know about other people, but this was NOT what I asked for when I wanted harder alliance raids. I just wanted something that was more along the lines of Neir when it was new. Not HARD, but fun, and the kind of content that can catch a savage raider off guard if they aren't paying attention from time to time, and makes casuals scream like chickens but laugh it off a few minutes later. This is not what this content is. This is FRUSTRAITING and mood killing.

I never thought I'd say it, but honestly my love for this game is failing. I've only logged in once or twice in weeks.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Perhaps you should read what I said again, because I'm afraid I read you just fine; you want all sources of BiS to be the same substats. Boring. BiS could (and should) be made of pieces from more than just savage and tomes. You should be required to do all high end content to get true BiS.

Getting it from two sources is boring. Some pieces should come savage. Some from chaotic. Some from tome. Some from Criterion. Mix and match. Not only would you gear faster, which this game desperately needs, but variation in substats would be highly beneficial to jobs within the same role whose gear sets/melds aren't entirely compatible sometimes (i.e. VPR vs NIN). Current BiS being made of pieces from four pieces of content (savage, tome, FRU, chaotic) is the most interesting gear has been in years.

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You most definitely did not understand my comment, lol. I am not saying it's a bad thing having multiple content to get BiS. Why is it so hard to understand? If you put the same substats they are still BiS. People who want to do 8-man only will still get BiS through it. People doing 24-man will get the benefit of gearing altjobs. The issue is putting better gear in 24-man, when, for a decade, this type of content wasn't in the game.

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Originally Posted by FlorineC

Nobody's forced to do anything. You can do all content in the game just fine with pre-Chaotic bis and it'll be outdated next content drop, but I think having more gearing options for the now is good actually. If you don't wanna do Chaotic to get slightly better, don't do it, but there's no reason to deprive other players of options just because you don't wanna run the content.

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If you want the actual BiS, yes, you are forced to do it on most jobs, if not all. High-end raiding in this game was always about 8 players. Why change the formula when you built a raiding community around 8-man content for 10 years?

Also what you've said in the beggining is completely wrong. There's a chance some pieces from Chaotic will be Ultimate BiS(they are now), so stating that they'll become outdated is completely wrong.

Some people really think it is wise to release 24-man high-end content with Ultimate BiS, pieces better than Savage tier(not equal), when FFXIV has been keeping the same 8-man formula for a decade. We'll see how alive this content will be in the near future.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

Some people really think it is wise to release 24-man high-end content with Ultimate BiS, pieces better than Savage tier(not equal), when FFXIV has been keeping the same 8-man formula for a decade. We'll see how alive this content will be in the near future.

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The difference for DPS jobs is so minuscule that it doesn't matter. It only really makes it better for tanks and healers and not by that big of an amount. The pieces are the same ilvl as Savage, they simply have better stat distribution for T/H due to some of them not having piety or tenacity.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

If you want the actual BiS, yes, you are forced to do it on most jobs, if not all. High-end raiding in this game was always about 8 players. Why change the formula when you built a raiding community around 8-man content for 10 years?

Also what you've said in the beggining is completely wrong. There's a chance some pieces from Chaotic will be Ultimate BiS(they are now), so stating that they'll become outdated is completely wrong.

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Why change it? Because its 10 years later and the same formula is clearly showing its issues throughout this entire expansion. Or would you like another reason?

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Why change it? Because its 10 years later and the same formula is clearly showing its issues throughout this entire expansion. Or would you like another reason?

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There are many things this expansion is doing wrong, but I don't recall the fact that we have 8-man raids being an issue at any time. The FFXIV raid community was built around 8 people raiding. If you change what isn't broken in the formula, you'll lose even more players. Especially considering the bad things are getting worse already, like job homogenization, game balance and linear/predictable MSQ quests.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

If you want the actual BiS, yes, you are forced to do it on most jobs, if not all. High-end raiding in this game was always about 8 players. Why change the formula when you built a raiding community around 8-man content for 10 years?

Also what you've said in the beggining is completely wrong. There's a chance some pieces from Chaotic will be Ultimate BiS(they are now), so stating that they'll become outdated is completely wrong.

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Except it hasn't been. You know what had a vast majority of BiS pieces at the end of Stormblood? Eureka.
Sure it was technically 10 item level lower but the Elemental+1 gear often had not only the best substats but also 5 guaranteed materia slots. It was in fact so good that it enabled playstyles we haven't seen since, like maximum speed BLM, SAM and MNK, add to that a relic weapon with up to a 1000 substat total which completely invalidated the savage weapons if you were prepared to put in the time.

The world didn't end back then and it isn't gonna end now with gear that is a miniscule percentage upgrade in comparison.

As for the current ultimate, it is entirely possible that the chaotic gear becomes obsolete as soon as the next dungeon with 635 ilvl gear releases.


But the general idea is something I can get behind, we need more sources to get BiS gear so we're not entirely shackled to the terrible 450 tomestone cap, weekly savage lockout and the atrocious loot system for anyone not playing in a static.
Put the crit/det gear (because let's be honest, nobody wants piety or tenacity on their items anyway) in savage, put it in chaotic, put it in criterion... hell put it in alliance raids, they're supposed to be for catch up after the raid tier is basically over anyway.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

If you want the actual BiS, yes, you are forced to do it on most jobs, if not all. High-end raiding in this game was always about 8 players. Why change the formula when you built a raiding community around 8-man content for 10 years?

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I mean yes, if you want the reward from the content you have to do the content, that is true. But nobody's making you get that reward. All the content in the game is designed around the pre-Chaotic gear. You don't need any of it for anything except making your number a tiny, tiny bit bigger. It's like complaining about Ultimate weapons being better than Savage. "Why change the formula from the best weapon being from the final raid boss, why should I have to do this other thing to get a better weapon? I don't wanna do the Ultimate so it shouldn't give anything that I want so that other people can't have anything from it!" I can't think of a single compelling reason why there should be some rule that non-savage/tome gear shouldn't have different/better substats on some pieces. I think the variety is good, and my only complaint is that the Chaotic didn't come out sooner so that the new, marginal BiS pieces could've been used longer or we could've gotten some more timely alternate avenues of gear progression.

I disagree.

Variety is always good. Even though I dont do raids.

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Originally Posted by mangelinabrolee

100% agree, I am noticing the content isnt that popular anyways on the NA servers. only like 3 PFs at time max im seeing for it compared to the ultimate raid. When will FFxiv just go back to giving us proper grinds for relics instead of all this content no one plays.

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I think it's because I've seen a lot of organizing move to Discord and away from PF after the first couple of days.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

You most definitely did not understand my comment, lol. I am not saying it's a bad thing having multiple content to get BiS. Why is it so hard to understand? If you put the same substats they are still BiS. People who want to do 8-man only will still get BiS through it. People doing 24-man will get the benefit of gearing altjobs. The issue is putting better gear in 24-man, when, for a decade, this type of content wasn't in the game.

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Girly. Please stop. It's embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

It is fine if they keep releasing this content. The big mistake here is Chaotic dropping pieces better than 8-man Savage. The substats should be the same as the Savage tier, just like Criterion Savage weapons.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Perhaps you should read what I said again, because I'm afraid I read you just fine; you want all sources of BiS to be the same substats. Boring. BiS could (and should) be made of pieces from more than just savage and tomes. You should be required to do all high end content to get true BiS.

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I'll reword what I was saying for you: Chaotic different substats good because doing only savage boring.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I think it's because I've seen a lot of organizing move to Discord and away from PF after the first couple of days.

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It is solely because with Discord, you can remove the prog-liars and inconsistent players from the server so they're no longer able to drag 23 other players down.

I've been trying to help other players get their clears over the last three days in PF and every "clear" party, the only thing they've been consistent in is dying to the first round of pairs/spreads every pull, missing 1 to 2 tower-1s, and ganking each other on tiles.

Every time I've called them out for repeatedly failing mechanics, half the alliance white knights, only for them to mess up again the next pull and the other half abandons the raid.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Except it hasn't been. You know what had a vast majority of BiS pieces at the end of Stormblood? Eureka.
Sure it was technically 10 item level lower but the Elemental+1 gear often had not only the best substats but also 5 guaranteed materia slots. It was in fact so good that it enabled playstyles we haven't seen since, like maximum speed BLM, SAM and MNK, add to that a relic weapon with up to a 1000 substat total which completely invalidated the savage weapons if you were prepared to put in the time.

The world didn't end back then and it isn't gonna end now with gear that is a miniscule percentage upgrade in comparison.

As for the current ultimate, it is entirely possible that the chaotic gear becomes obsolete as soon as the next dungeon with 635 ilvl gear releases.


But the general idea is something I can get behind, we need more sources to get BiS gear so we're not entirely shackled to the terrible 450 tomestone cap, weekly savage lockout and the atrocious loot system for anyone not playing in a static.
Put the crit/det gear (because let's be honest, nobody wants piety or tenacity on their items anyway) in savage, put it in chaotic, put it in criterion... hell put it in alliance raids, they're supposed to be for catch up after the raid tier is basically over anyway.

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Eureka wasn't get in arena and kill boss, high-end content. You can't really compare gearing up in Eureka to progging 24-man high-end content in PF.

And even if you could, why would you argue that the raid community wasn't built around 8 players? What about every Savage tier and Ultimate released?

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Originally Posted by brinn12

There are many things this expansion is doing wrong, but I don't recall the fact that we have 8-man raids being an issue at any time. The FFXIV raid community was built around 8 people raiding. If you change what isn't broken in the formula, you'll lose even more players. Especially considering the bad things are getting worse already, like job homogenization, game balance and linear/predictable MSQ quests.

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But, there was a demand for a 24 person raid, just not at this difficulty. You're coming at them for making a raid with the amount of players than the community actually wanted. Do you want them to listen or not?

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Originally Posted by brinn12

Eureka wasn't get in arena and kill boss, high-end content. You can't really compare gearing up in Eureka to progging 24-man high-end content in PF.

And even if you could, why would you argue that the raid community wasn't built around 8 players? What about every Savage tier and Ultimate released?

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Why is Savage and Ultimate the only thing you acknowledge as a raid? Playing into that just to play devil's advocate. DRS. DR Savage. Made to hold 24-48 people.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

Eureka wasn't get in arena and kill boss, high-end content.

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Right, Eureka was the only REAL raid we got, everything else is just another trial, often very disconnected from the previous one....

EDIT. Ok sry, the Bozja stuff as well, but i cant judge as i never did Savage and abandoned it fast, as the grind was BS.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Why is Savage and Ultimate the only thing you acknowledge as a raid? Playing into that just to play devil's advocate. DRS. DR Savage. Made to hold 24-48 people.

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What are the duties defined as high-end by the developers? The vast majority is historically 8-man.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Right, Eureka was the only REAL raid we got, everything else is just another trial, often very disconnected from the previous one....

EDIT. Ok sry, the Bozja stuff as well, but i cant judge as i never did Savage and abandoned it fast, as the grind was BS.

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Honestly, if I had to pick between 3 zones like Eureka in an expansion, or 3 Savage tiers, I would prefer those zones. People got to a point of calling me an elitist in here, but I've said already that I think normal Alliance should drop pieces equal to Savage gear. I just don't think the develeopers should put better(not equal) pieces in content they've never tried before, or haven't tried in years.

Eh I prefer because both hands and feet were garbage both versions of them. Even more so with the 7.1 making the shield gcd cost less now

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Originally Posted by brinn12

Honestly, if I had to pick between 3 zones like Eureka in an expansion, or 3 Savage tiers, I would prefer those zones. People got to a point of calling me an elitist in here, but I've said already that I think normal Alliance should drop pieces equal to Savage gear. I just don't think the develeopers should put better(not equal) pieces in content they've never tried before, or haven't tried in years.

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Clould could as well have been 735 or even 740 - it does not matter in like 2 months. Would it be released with the even numbered patches the 730 would be fine, but as is? we trash it for crafted/normal raid/new tome the moment the even numbered patch hits.

But yes, the Zones were better - except for Pagos where you felt like they wanted to hit us for not playing as intended lol
- I just wished for more raids inside em, the Arsenal was fun... just a bit more forgiving and it would be perfect. Actual raids, we RAID some place...


About the stats.... i still feel we should change how gear works, every piece should have ALL stats on it, with the difference being the amount. IE one set has more SS or DH, one has DET or Crit and materia can make up for the lower ones. It feels horrible having to choose between stats or Ilvl, loosing 300 crit for SS/DET lol

Also, the Cloud gear should have at least more materia slots to make up for its pointlessness...

I have no idea how someone is against more choice in gearing options lmao
Imagine wanting the rewards to be useless because they have the same substats as Savage/Tome gear

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I have no idea how someone is against more choice in gearing options lmao
Imagine wanting the rewards to be useless because they have the same substats as Savage/Tome gear

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Honestly my guess is that they're a parser who's mad that other players can get better gear than them so they can't get the biggest number on fflogs, as if that matters at all.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I have no idea how someone is against more choice in gearing options lmao
Imagine wanting the rewards to be useless because they have the same substats as Savage/Tome gear

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i think it is because the Devs have absolutely dumbed down how the game works...
Everything is DPS from healers to tanks to DPS itself

naturally.. critical hits and any stats that boost DPS will favour
and many classes benefits so much more from crits and Direct hit...

Any other stat than this is pointless basically
so i see where they're comming from, best in my book is the gear is temporary placeholder until you find the suitable one, so still okay in my book
unless they make tenacity and piety actually... mandatory in a fight or content, don't see it happening

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

That would suggest that the content was never intended for casuals to attempt then and the "new player bonus" is a grift, even the notion that it's supposed to be a "step" towards Savage is a complete lie because it's clearly being locked to players who have their BiS through Savage already.

It's just more content for hardcore players basically, because they weren't already growing fat from everything else Dawntrail gave them I guess.

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If I understand correctly the new player bonus is more of a "first come, first served" bonus, people who cleared in a group of first timers got a big bonus since they were all new. But it's a per-new-player bonus and is actually pretty small so it doesn't really incentivize groups of players who cleared to go back and help a new player clear for the first time.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

It's an absolute mess in chaotic

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Yes and it's glorious.

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It's not a skill issue (on my part)

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99% of people are going to say this so I don't think that holds much weight.

It's week 1 in PF, the raid was cleared in 4 hours. It's not that bad. Biggest issue was probably people expecting it to be EX level for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

That would suggest that the content was never intended for casuals to attempt then and the "new player bonus" is a grift, even the notion that it's supposed to be a "step" towards Savage is a complete lie because it's clearly being locked to players who have their BiS through Savage already.

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I think it depends on what you mean by "casual". My impression has always been that this content is for people who are still progging savage to give them a gear boost to help with M4 and maybe M3. In that respect, I'd say it's probably for casuals because the people still progging Savage at this point are by and large casual players and casual raiders, but I wouldn't say it's for casuals in then sense of someone who's never done a raid before, and I don't feel like it was ever intended to be. I haven't kept up with everything the devs have said about it leading up to release, but this always seemed like the obvious target audience for Chaotic. Regardless, not sure how the first time bonus is a gift, it's just incentive to help people clear and it accomplishes that.

What they should have done is made 2 tiers. Hard and savage. (Hard is still the same as it is now, and savage is ultimate-tier.)

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Originally Posted by hydralus

What they should have done is made 2 tiers. Hard and savage. (Hard is still the same as it is now, and savage is ultimate-tier.)

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So they should have done twice the work and pissed off even more people?

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Originally Posted by hydralus

What they should have done is made 2 tiers. Hard and savage. (Hard is still the same as it is now, and savage is ultimate-tier.)

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What? This is backwards.

Yes, they should have 2 tiers. Hard should've been Chaotic, and then normal being the more easily accessible/entry point into Chaotic.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

What are the duties defined as high-end by the developers? The vast majority is historically 8-man.

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Vast majority. As in, there is a minority. Minority being what I listed.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

There is nothing less fun than depending on 23 other people to not screw up

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There are however 2 very important diffirences that change the difficulty compared to regular savage a lot:
- In regular savage, its 1 clear per week. And no one is ever going to bother reclearing it if there is no rewards. It makes searching for people harder the longer it takes.
- Because people are rewarded to reclear it with newer players, they are far less likely to care. And this makes the finding 24 people a lot easier, since there might be 16 who already cleared the fight. And depending on the roles and positions, they do allow you to follow them for certain mechanics. (and even if not following, they can still hint cueues on for example when to refresh your platform at an optimal time.

They did a very good job at making reclearing rewarding here. And especialy its system does make it much better to find a clear party.

For me finding a clear party was significantly easier than m1s. So while its savage, i realy dont see the PF problem here.

The bigger problem is trolls. Having 1 person constantly aborting can destroy parties, and as the leader (or anyone) cant see who is doing that. It makes handling those a pain (it usualy collapses the party). That is the only thing that got worse compared to 8man groups.

I also would like it if you could put a condition in the PF that states you must at least have reached a certain phase. Now its just description, and the number of times i saw cutscene viewers in a looming prog party is excessive. Having the game mark thresholds itself as a number, and then giving players access to that phase number in pf could be fine. The chat log can state the actual new phase being unlocked. And for this fight i would say 4 tresholds are going to be helpful: phase 1(first diamond - just to exclude new players), phase 2 (tiles phase starts), phase 3 (2nd diamond starts), phase 4 (enrage cast starts).
Using a number also makes it reusable for other content. The interface can change it to a representing text if needed, but even if its just numbers, players will figure it out anyway.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I have no idea how someone is against more choice in gearing options lmao
Imagine wanting the rewards to be useless because they have the same substats as Savage/Tome gear

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Not useless by any means, when this game has a horrible Savage loot system, with a 450 tomestone cap. You could still gear alt jobs. If this content is popular for months like 8-man Savage, sure, it should be part of every job's BiS. But the point is, we don't know yet, which is why I am opposed.

I also have no idea how someone is against the release of 24-man high-end content, but in favor of it rewarding better pieces than 8-man. Hard to believe you are the OP.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

Not useless by any means, when this game has a horrible Savage loot system, with a 450 tomestone cap. You could still gear alt jobs. If this content is popular for months like 8-man Savage, sure, it should be part of every job's BiS. But the point is, we don't know yet, which is why I am opposed.

I also have no idea how someone is against the release of 24-man high-end content, but in favor of it rewarding better pieces than 8-man. Hard to believe you are the OP.

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Are you seriously confused about how I can dislike the design of the 24 man content but still want more gearing options? These are two completely separate things.

I don't care where the gear comes from, as long as there are more max item level options to choose from. Before Chaotic gear, healer BiS was 727, which was awful. With the addition of Chaotic gear, healer BiS is now 730. It's the same for tanks - I've been able to drop tenacity on the body piece in favor of a more useful stat.

More gearing options are beneficial and healthy for players who care about optimizing their performance. There's no reason to be against this.