They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

End of the day, MY DPS is none of your business.

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Not true if it is savage or higher content. For Normal content who cares.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

And so instead, we have the toxic casual playerbase demanding that nobody be *allowed* to crunch their numbers, lest the sky fall.

The point of what I said, which flew right over your head, is that the toxic casual community is fantastically hypocritical in their need to play a videogame, complain -endlessly- about letting people enjoy the parts of it they enjoy, and then immediately turn around and scream BURN THE WITCH! The moment someone dares to, oh, I dunno, enjoy playing something in a different way

The evil "elitist" wants to tabulate their numbers as part of a quest for improvement. A toxic casual wants to prevent the evil elitist from doing this, because that quest for improvement may make them look *gasp* incompetent by comparison. That's literally it, all else is what-if fearmongering that conveniently ignores both the fact that harassment is ALREADY against the TOS, and that toxic casuals blithely bitch about "elitists" all the time without censure.

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IMO most people don't want meters in game because they would actually realize how terrible they are playing. Which is meaningless in normal content since who cares, tanks and healers can duo it together. But still when you see somebody doing 47% of the damage in a dungeon where as you are hovering somewhere around 20ish% you might be cursed with the thought that you might be doing something wrong.

IMO people just need to learn to be okay with not being the best. As long as you're putting in the minimal effort, nobody is going to flame you.

Problem is that a lot of people are just complacent and okay with just expecting other people to carry them, and this would "expose" them

Unfortunately for them my good friend who uses ACT already knows this to be the case, as does everyone who has already been using ACT for years.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

IMO most people don't want meters in game because they would actually realize how terrible they are playing. Which is meaningless in normal content since who cares, tanks and healers can duo it together. But still when you see somebody doing 47% of the damage in a dungeon where as you are hovering somewhere around 20ish% you might be cursed with the thought that you might be doing something wrong.

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Tbh that statement of yours is why the devs don't want it in game. If someone is going to say something like that without parsers in game, imagine if they were added. Probably be a lot worse and then nothing can really be done about it. A lot of people who keep trying to push for parsers to be added in game just keep proving yoshi's point as to why they should not be added.

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

IMO people just need to learn to be okay with not being the best. As long as you're putting in the minimal effort, nobody is going to flame you.

Problem is that a lot of people are just complacent and okay with just expecting other people to carry them, and this would "expose" them

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Not that there's any way to be less lenient of parsing short of "anti-cheat" bloatware that probably still wouldn't prevent it, so long as the grey area exists, it's safest for someone not parsing to assume that others are; its grey status merely prevents them the courtesy talking to you or helping you through a shortfall, replacing that chance instead with simply kicking and blocking you from what content in which any such shortfall would matter, as not to risk the report. Any and every reason for a kick is valid under the equally "claim a mile to deal with an inch" category of "Difference in playstyle" after all.

Even that, though, is better than being kicked and blocked by someone without a parser on the uninformed suspicion of gross underpreparedness/underperformance would matter. Let's say the group's already wiped thrice to the enrage even with minimal deaths and the group leader, perhaps rightly, is on the look out for a cause since nothing's just sorting itself out naturally. Accidentally did your Chaos Thrust combo twice in a row, all of once, and they saw it and it stuck in their mind? Was your one time getting clipped by an AoE the mistake they noticed, even if you made fewer overall than anyone else? Even if you're still more than pulling your weight, that may be the end of you. I'd far rather my fate lie with what actually happened than from poorly (in)formed conclusions.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCoqui

Tbh that statement of yours is why the devs don't want it in game. If someone is going to say something like that without parsers in game, imagine if they were added. Probably be a lot worse and then nothing can really be done about it. A lot of people who keep trying to push for parsers to be added in game just keep proving yoshi's point as to why they should not be added.

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Of course something can be done about it. It's already in place even. You dont get to harass someone over their performance. As yoship said in that one infamous liveletter you get punished for harassment before you get punished for using ACT.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Of course something can be done about it. It's already in place even. You dont get to harass someone over their performance. As yoship said in that one infamous liveletter you get punished for harassment before you get punished for using ACT.

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This is something that people will 99.99% forget whenever numbers are brought up into this discussion, it's almost baffling. Selectiveness is real.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

This is something that people will 99.99%

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99.9%? You disgusting parser, get out of this thread

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

99.9%? You disgusting parser, get out of this thread

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Pretty sure they cheated to get this number anyway because that's what parsers do. You heard that? You're a cheat!

They will not add DPS metter for the same reason chat is disabled in PvP, even if harrasment is against ToS, people would do it more often when the option is in the game and mods will have extra work.

On other side, FF is not made to have any DPS metter and (surprise, surprise), DPS metters are not accurate at the moment and they were never accurate. Big portion of the DMG is calculated with formulas or simulations to work around missing numbers or information. If SE are releasing thier own metter, they should provide accurate tool that guarantee proper numbers and with the current system that is not possible. I don't believe they will rewrite the entire workflow of dps'ing to help the part of the community that just can't understand how the battle system works and can't live without DPS metter.

>Grebeny opinion

Ignored

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/87...ality=lossless

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not that there's any way to be less lenient of parsing short of "anti-cheat" bloatware that probably still wouldn't prevent it, so long as the grey area exists, it's safest for someone not parsing to assume that others are; its grey status merely prevents them the courtesy talking to you or helping you through a shortfall, replacing that chance instead with simply kicking and blocking you from what content in which any such shortfall would matter, as not to risk the report. Any and every reason for a kick is valid under the equally "claim a mile to deal with an inch" category of "Difference in playstyle" after all.

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Anti-cheat has been discussed on the forums before, and Shurrikhan says the biggest part out loud for everyone to hear provided they read it. If there's one thing I don't understand, it's some people's obsession with wanting an Anti-Cheat when it's been proven time and again that Anti-Cheats are worked around by the 3rd Party App developers to keep the program running like it's supposed to. Those other games that have anti-cheat have shown that they can even be undetected on a computer as well.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Even that, though, is better than being kicked and blocked by someone without a parser on the uninformed suspicion of gross underpreparedness/underperformance would matter. Let's say the group's already wiped thrice to the enrage even with minimal deaths and the group leader, perhaps rightly, is on the look out for a cause since nothing's just sorting itself out naturally. Accidentally did your Chaos Thrust combo twice in a row, all of once, and they saw it and it stuck in their mind? Was your one time getting clipped by an AoE the mistake they noticed, even if you made fewer overall than anyone else? Even if you're still more than pulling your weight, that may be the end of you. I'd far rather my fate lie with what actually happened than from poorly (in)formed conclusions.

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One of the main facets of Primal is how its raiding scene imposes a three-run rule on itself when reclearing. Either people know the fight, or basically they were carried by others' standards. Having that one thing stuck in another's mind as Shurri says is how stigmatization begins - by hyperfocusing on one person throughout the fight and potentially making the problems yourself for not paying attention. Aside from Primal PF strategies that are typically from video guides or diagrams, there is almost little to no communication that happens based on my experience - something that needs to be improved just within the community itself.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

This is something that people will 99.99% forget whenever numbers are brought up into this discussion, it's almost baffling. Selectiveness is real.

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Context matters. The point, in the statements leading up to it, is that harassment is easy to verify, so they ban more frequently for that. ACT usage is not so easy to verify for them because they don't want to invade your privacy and install detection software to determine what else is running on your computer. He never said that they don't ban for ACT. He said that it's harder to prove. In that same interview, he also explicitly said not to use ACT. The reason the streamers are being banned for their use of the software is because they provided video evidence that they're using it, so SE was able to verify that they were breaking TOS without having to infect anyone with spyware. Regardless of how you misinterpreted previous statements, there's a big difference between, "We're looking the other way, so go for it," and "We're not going to invade your privacy to verify that you're not doing it, but please don't do it anyway because it's not allowed."

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Originally Posted by Klytania

An officially supported damage meter should be added, there is no good argument against this.

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No. Players will find a way to use this to exclude others, even if it comes to the point of having to send screen shots of "private" parses via Discord to be let into the group.

Players will ALWAYS find a way to corrupt any system, no matter how well intentioned or seemingly harmless which eventually ends up in an arms race between devs and players. The only way to win that game is not to play.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

The FF 14 Dev team made our current housing system. I question their decisions constantly tbh.

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Not to mention the FF14 Dev Team made healers the way they are now, which is a constant head scratcher for me personally.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

No. Players will find a way to use this to exclude others, even if it comes to the point of having to send screen shots of "private" parses via Discord to be let into the group.

Players will ALWAYS find a way to corrupt any system, no matter how well intentioned or seemingly harmless which eventually ends up in an arms race between devs and players. The only way to win that game is not to play.

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So it sounds like there is no reason to limit it from players who want it for legitimate purposes then if people will ALWAYS find a way regardless, huh?

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Originally Posted by DBriggs304

No need to worry about other players and their rotations. (Eventhough it's NOT the "rotations" that people are wanting meters for)

No.
Not in this game.
Again, not needed.

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"I have a group that I do savage with so this doesn't effect me"

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Semirhage

The issue with that is simple: Said tool will not be used to "improve" it will be used to harass, belittle, insult, berate, humiliate others.

If you cant see that simple reality, then theres really no use in discussing this further.

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"I need the power to stop you from doing something on your own computer, that slightly affects how you play the game. I need this power because if I don't have it, you *might* do something that would negatively impact me".

You -definitely- need to exert de jure control over me, because I *might* otherwise exert peer pressure over you.

That sounds like the lust of every authoritarian I've ever heard, babe.

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Originally Posted by Klytania

"I have a group that I do savage with so this doesn't effect me"

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If you look em up, it's very clear why they think a meter isn't needed ;)

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

If you look em up, it's very clear why they think a meter isn't needed ;)

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I know

There are basically 2 camps of naysayers. People who are established with a static and don't care about anything outside of themselves, and people who still forget to use tank stance in level 90 content.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

If you look em up, it's very clear why they think a meter isn't needed ;)

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If you can't have a discussion without running off to fflogs to check if the person posting has good parses then why should they trust that you aren't going to look up someone else's damage to harass them in game if they do anything you don't like?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If you can't have a discussion without running off to fflogs to check if the person posting has good parses then why should they trust that you aren't going to look up someone else's damage to harass them in game if they do anything you don't like?

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Context for people's comments are important.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If you can't have a discussion without running off to fflogs to check if the person posting has good parses then why should they trust that you aren't going to look up someone else's damage to harass them in game if they do anything you don't like?

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Easy, if people are posting on here about why a damage meter isn't important or isn't needed, but they are getting carried through content, it makes their claims dubious at best. The in-game comparison would be if someone was bragging about how much damage they do or how they are good at the game and you go to check if this is true or not.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If you can't have a discussion without running off to fflogs to check if the person posting has good parses then why should they trust that you aren't going to look up someone else's damage to harass them in game if they do anything you don't like?

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If someone was advocating for add-on support for deep dungeons, crafting, gathering, or any other content wouldn't you want to gauge how much experience they have in it? If you find out that someone has never touched crafting at all, then why would you take what they say more seriously VS someone who has poured hours and hours into it? Same concept with parses. Why would you take someone's word who has never even touched anything above a recent extreme, over someone who raids regularly in current content?

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Context matters. The point, in the statements leading up to it, is that harassment is easy to verify, so they ban more frequently for that. ACT usage is not so easy to verify for them because they don't want to invade your privacy and install detection software to determine what else is running on your computer. He never said that they don't ban for ACT. He said that it's harder to prove. In that same interview, he also explicitly said not to use ACT. The reason the streamers are being banned for their use of the software is because they provided video evidence that they're using it, so SE was able to verify that they were breaking TOS without having to infect anyone with spyware. Regardless of how you misinterpreted previous statements, there's a big difference between, "We're looking the other way, so go for it," and "We're not going to invade your privacy to verify that you're not doing it, but please don't do it anyway because it's not allowed."

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ACT used without harassment is also not a problem. It's the most victimless crime possible. Harassment on the other hand isnt. He is saying that you get banned for harassment before you get banned for using ACT is because the relevant part is the harassment not the third party tool usage. Additionally it covers non ACT related harassment over performance because lets be real, if someone is exceptionally dogshit at the game I dont need ACT to notice. ACT is entirely irrelevant in the conversation about harassment over performance.

Honestly, I can see the benefit to individual players to have a built-in DPS meter, that could even rank you the same way FFLogs does, but is completely private. It would tell you that there are improvements that can be done, though it may not be evident what you need to do, it would be a starting point of "Oh, my rotation isn't optimal, time to look around and see what would be better/help me improve".

On the other hand, if is isn't private, I can see people kicking others from parties before even going into any content due to their numbers. Or, even if it is private, kicking people who don't want to share their numbers with others. It could lead to a fair amount of discrimination, especially when it's found out that someone lied about their numbers just so they wouldn't get kicked.

I really don't care that people do parse, because it doesn't really affect me as an average player since I don't do savage/ultimates, provided it's used as a tool for self improvement/helping those on console - like myself - know where they need to improve(without harassing them of course).

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Originally Posted by Klytania

I know

There are basically 2 camps of naysayers. People who are established with a static and don't care about anything outside of themselves, and people who still forget to use tank stance in level 90 content.

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I'd say there's also camp 3. People who had negative experience with said tools being openly available.

Judging from experience I'd wager that majority of those for whom damage meter would have positive impact on their growth already use them. The rest? You're giving them a tool they can't really use at best and way to measure themselves to others at worst. Even if it won't escalate into full blown harassment I feel the passive-agressive behavior will just grow worse. And not just between "Elite and non elite". From my experience the rift usually starts out on barely average level. Those who don't really have much leg to stand on against proper high end player but at least better than "bottom trash". I've yet to see the game with some means of comparing players that wouldn't spiral in that way. And with overall fear of being reported for trying to help it would only grow worse.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

ACT used without harassment is also not a problem. It's the most victimless crime possible.

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Except that he never said that. In fact, he explicitly said:

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I'm aware that there will be people using it to calculate their personal numbers, but I know you'll see this in the Party Finder: "Only join if you can prove that you can DPS xxx amount." We never want that to happen.

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That has nothing to do with harassment and everything to do with gatekeeping. WoW embraces it, and this game thankfully does not. That's why I'm playing this game and not WoW.

Don't take my word for it. See Yoshi-P say it for yourself: https://youtu.be/e_i6mjiGerU?t=280

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Except that he never said that. In fact, he explicitly said:

That has nothing to do with harassment and everything to do with gatekeeping. WoW embraces it, and this game thankfully does not. That's why I'm playing this game and not WoW.

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A dubious reasoning as ilvl gating already exists and it's not only not a problem but also entirely avoidable by just making your own party. The higher you set expectations, the slower your party can fill but setting clear expectations is a benefit to everyone involved if people can accurately grasp and live with their own performance.

Ilvl gating can be very gatekeepy. When endsinger ex came out you could just set the min ilvl for your pf to 600 and only people who did savage were able to join. Did that cause issues? No, not only will not everyone set it that high but also everyone who hasnt done savage could just create their own PF. This to me proves that this fear yoship has stated is not well founded.

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Originally Posted by Oopsy

I cant think of any arguments better then the ones Yoshi-P made in that clip.

If the content is to hard without a DPS meter then they should lower the DPS requirement.

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If there is a DPS requirement at all than dps meters are going to appear. The reason that DPS meters exist is to act as a way to improve and learn rotations on classes and understand the most efficient rotation for a situation. The thing is that while Yoshi P does state that he doesn't want to see people post "prove you can do XXX amount of damage" in PF, fundamentally the only way to avoid that scenario in practice is to make savage and ultimate not available in PF. In general, it's pretty hard to be bad at doing damage in this game since the rotations are much simpler and easier to handle. However, the content where damage matters also incorporates a lot more coordination that can lead to points of downtime. So while we avoid the problem of WoW Brutalis style checks, we're still bound by our ability to deal sufficient damage to a target under duress.

On the other hand the only point where DPS meters would be useful is tackling Savage and Ultimate. Do you think there is a way for SE to allow DPS meters only in this content? How do they prove that someone only uses it in savage and ultimate? And then there is the risk of conducting harassment on another player simply by using the tool whether intentionally or not intentionally. This is one of the biggest problems with FFLogs.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

A dubious reasoning as ilvl gating already exists and it's not only not a problem but also entirely avoidable by just making your own party. The higher you set expectations, the slower your party can fill but setting clear expectations is a benefit to everyone involved if people can accurately grasp and live with their own performance.

Ilvl gating can be very gatekeepy. When endsinger ex came out you could just set the min ilvl for your pf to 600 and only people who did savage were able to join. Did that cause issues? No, not only will not everyone set it that high but also everyone who hasnt done savage could just create their own PF. This to me proves that this fear yoship has stated is not well founded.

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Exactly all of this. You already have a bunch of filters you can have in a PF listing that act as "gatekeeping". Having one more won't cause any issues.

If you want to limit your party to only people who provide x DPS, you should have that right but making that choice also makes your party fill up slower because the higher you go the smaller and smaller the pool gets.

Likewise anyone who doesn't care can make their own PF listing, there isn't a limited number of listings available so it's not like they can keep you from doing content and gatekeep you, just form your own party.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

This would be extra cool if they had an on-rails mock boss fight where you could practice doing mechanics while you see how your DPS stacks up with that. You can beat the snot out of a Patchwerk fight all day and night but as soon as you have to obey mechanics your DPS changes with how greedy you are(which is more forgivable here) or how conservative you are.

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I have wanted a sort of Stone Sky Sea that just let you run one or two mechanics from each fight over and over. Not even just for practice, but some mechanics are just genuinely fun.

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Originally Posted by Thi

Exactly all of this. You already have a bunch of filters you can have in a PF listing that act as "gatekeeping". Having one more won't cause any issues.

If you want to limit your party to only people who provide x DPS, you should have that right but making that choice also makes your party fill up slower because the higher you go the smaller and smaller the pool gets.

Likewise anyone who doesn't care can make their own PF listing, there isn't a limited number of listings available so it's not like they can keep you from doing content and gatekeep you, just form your own party.

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The idea that people will then use explicit DPS numbers is a dubious one at best and imo speaks more to what the people fearmongering from that would do than anyone else (remember, the only thing we can do is projecting). Walk me through the logistics of it, are you going to set individual numbers for every single job? While job balance is definitely a strength of this game, it's not perfect either. Remember that the damage numbers ACT shows when active is not entirely reflective of your contribution because of group buffs (both from you and from others). DPS also depends on the specific encounter down to the kill time.
Do you want to account for all that in your PF description and make an essay out of it? No, you wont. You'll just set an ilvl gate, kick people who are not up to your expectations and be done with it. Exactly like you can do now.

This is also assuming that SE does a good job at making an official damage meter that can account for group buffs and the likes. There is no reason to assume they will do a good job at that. This is honestly the reason why I think they shouldnt. The community already has a better solution than SE is able and willing to provide. Do we seriously believe SE would make the sensible decision and strike things like P3S add phase from the records?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

The idea that people will then use explicit DPS numbers is a dubious one at best and imo speaks more to what the people fearmongering from that would do than anyone else (remember, the only thing we can do is projecting). Walk me through the logistics of it, are you going to set individual numbers for every single job? While job balance is definitely a strength of this game, it's not perfect either. Remember that the damage numbers ACT shows when active is not entirely reflective of your contribution because of group buffs (both from you and from others). DPS also depends on the specific encounter down to the kill time.
Do you want to account for all that in your PF description and make an essay out of it? No, you wont. You'll just set an ilvl gate, kick people who are not up to your expectations and be done with it. Exactly like you can do now.

This is also assuming that SE does a good job at making an official damage meter that can account for group buffs and the likes. There is no reason to assume they will do a good job at that. This is honestly the reason why I think they shouldnt. The community already has a better solution than SE is able and willing to provide. Do we seriously believe SE would make the sensible decision and strike things like P3S add phase from the records?

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I agree on all fronts about this, you can't really set it by a raw number.

What I want is just a simple filter of did they clear SSS for this fight on the job they are joining on yes/no.

The raw numbers are just going to create a new "Skip soar or disband" but it is now "group DPS above x or disband."

It's because Yoshi wants two mutually exclusive things. He wants difficult endgame content that requires skill to pass......and also zero gatekeeping for anything.

I'm sorry, if you introduce a minimum skill level to do something that is somewhere above "have a pulse", people WILL discriminate (in the neutral sense of the term) when it comes to party members. They just will. Because you've set a bar for entry that some people -don't meet- and they don't want to meet.

But since gatekeeping BadWrongEvil, you enable a playerbase where you can never ever ever ever be mean to, make suggestions to, or god forbid even question someone who expects a carry. You need to do the Japanese thing of passively, bitchily putting them on a silent blacklist, because that sort of noninteractivity is "better".

All this drama over the utter REFUSAL to countenance statistics. For good or ill.

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Originally Posted by Klytania

An officially supported damage meter should be added, there is no good argument against this. All they need to do is allow people to simply set their damage to private if they can't handle potential criticism or just don't want to mess with it. Same way they did with the adventure plates.

They could even implement the feature with "private" as the default setting.

The information is already flowing that's how the current plug-ins work. All SE would need to do is add an in-game GUI that allows you to access it.

Being able to break down your damage and stats in a meaningful way is basically standard for most games like this, and it's insane that a game as big as XIV just ignores it. There are people I know who I keep trying to get into this game, but they won't because it is missing so many basic features like this.

Virtually nobody would quit because a damage meter was added (as much as they scream on twitter to the contrary, they won't). But more people would be interested in the game if it was updated this way. It's a net positive.

https://i.imgur.com/O1Q5exJ.png

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A huge NOPE: "Indeed, we’ve only released duties that we have proven can be beaten with the game’s standard features." - Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

If you look em up, it's very clear why they think a meter isn't needed ;)

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Originally Posted by Klytania

Context for people's comments are important.

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And with that you've already lost the crux of your argument.

You just acted as an example of the very toxic behavior you assert doesn't exist in WoW or other MMO's. When someone disagreed with you, you immediately ran to their FFLogs to use that to discredit them. You're SERIOUSLY trying to argue that people wouldn't be toxic about other people's DPS numbers when you're toxic over someone disagreeing with you over it?

We're done here.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

And with that you've already lost the crux of your argument.

You just acted as an example of the very toxic behavior you assert doesn't exist in WoW or other MMO's. When someone disagreed with you, you immediately ran to their FFLogs to use that to discredit them. You're SERIOUSLY trying to argue that people wouldn't be toxic about other people's DPS numbers when you're toxic over someone disagreeing with you over it?

We're done here.

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There's an enormous difference between using someone's lack of credentials to discredit an argument that is directly related to said credentials, and bullying someone in a leveling roulette.

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Originally Posted by Saranade

A huge NOPE: "Indeed, we’ve only released duties that we have proven can be beaten with the game’s standard features." - Yoshi P.

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This is why I posted the NPC meme. Thankyou for living up to it

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

And with that you've already lost the crux of your argument.

You just acted as an example of the very toxic behavior you assert doesn't exist in WoW or other MMO's. When someone disagreed with you, you immediately ran to their FFLogs to use that to discredit them. You're SERIOUSLY trying to argue that people wouldn't be toxic about other people's DPS numbers when you're toxic over someone disagreeing with you over it?

We're done here.

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Maybe it's hard to read through the eyeholes in your fursuit.

I never said people wouldn't use it to be "toxic" (that's such a tumblr blog phrase) I said it doesn't really matter. The benefits outweigh the negatives.

Also, why is looking up someone's stats in a conversation about stats wrong? Especially when they make statements like "It's not needed"