Bring Back Kaiten

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Actually I was referring to forum posters that are only here to enjoy watching jobs being destroyed because they don't have a stake on anything and spend more time on the forums than on the game, but ouch that's a lot of projection.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

You joined this forum 11 months after I did yet have twice as many posts as me lol.

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I joined 5 years before them and they have more posts than I do. I'm going to add this to my list of things people say that mean nothing and accomplish nothing.

I concur with the main point of your post too. For everyone that wants X for a job, there are people that don't like X and want Y instead. It's true for any job and any ability, any skill. Even people who run the same content can have different experiences as one another. I mean the difference in playing a job in a parse run vs. progression vs. Party finder is staggeringly different in this game. We're bound to have different experiences and have different feelings towards the same jobs and we're allowed to discuss those differencing opinions. The second someone starts shutting down other people by saying stuff like "you don't play content" "you don't matter you spend more time on the forums than playing the game" then you have absolutely just lost your right for any of us to care about what you have to say.

At the end of the day everyone is posting in this thread because they love Samurai in one way or another. Acting like only people with your shared view love samurai isn't helping yourself or anyone else.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

You joined this forum 11 months after I did yet have twice as many posts as me lol. Oh the humanity they removed kaiten samurai is destroyed!! it's only shinten now!!! what will we dooooooooo!!! Samurai is too easy it's only shinten and absolutely nothing else!!!

Imagine spreading false narratives to pretend your opinion is the only legitimate one when people post something that isn't in line with your specific views. It's almost like some people are genuinely happy that kaiten was removed from a gameplay perspective and post on the forums to celebrate the change that they feel was good for the job. I am posting in this thread so that it is not allowed to become an echo chamber. I want kaiten to stay gone because I prefer the way the job plays now. That's all. If everyone like me avoided posting, all the devs would see in this thread is negativity and disdain for the removal of kaiten. If you're going to make threads like this, it is important for me to express my differing opinion.

I couldn't care less that you think the job was "destroyed" because they removed that cheesy animation and interaction between kenki and iaijutsu. I only care that you don't get to create an echo chamber. Does it bother you that you're not succeeding in creating an echo chamber in this thread?

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The funny part is all your posts is asking for jobs to lose core mechanics and celebrating them when they do while mocking people, 2/4 of my posts is simply asking them to stop removing things, yeah it's really annoying I to spend all these posts asking people to stop wanting jobs to lose what little they have, I bet at least 100 of my posts is just defending positionals from people that don't play or like melee. What was that post you made in the positional thread? The one you called people that like positionals 3rd party cheaters that use scripts?

found it

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

There are people who use scripts to automate their rotations and addons to resolve every mechanic in each encounter for them. This enables them to focus entirely on standing in flank or rear which makes their parse look better than 99% of the playerbase.

These are the people who really want positionals to stay.

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oh yeah I bet your opinion matters a ton lmao.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

The funny part is all your posts is asking for jobs to lose core mechanics and celebrating them when they do while mocking people, 2/4 of my posts is simply asking them to stop removing things, yeah it's really annoying I to spend all these posts asking people to stop wanting jobs to lose what little they have, I bet at least 100 of my posts is just defending positionals from people that don't play or like melee. What was that post you made in the positional thread? The one you called people that like positionals 3rd party cheaters that use scripts?

found it


oh yeah I bet your opinion matters a ton lmao.

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Did I say all people who defend positionals are cheaters or did I explain something actually that happens in this community?

Your opinion matters as much as mine, difference is that the devs agree with me more than they agree with you.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Did I say all people who defend positionals are cheaters or did I explain something actually that happens in this community?

Your opinion matters as much as mine, difference is that the devs agree with me more than they agree with you.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

If positionals were removed the difficulty could be tuned better and re-allocated to more meaningful parts of the game. Nobody called people who use addons to pretend they are better than others because they can be at flank or rear more optimally while their rotation happens perfectly with one button spam pathetic though. Sounds like an insecurity issue due to being that demographic.

Also, not once did I say kaiten was difficult to use. It has an obnoxious animation and was button bloat.

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idk it's kind of hard to understand unhinged posts, the moment someone disagrees = they are using 3rd party tools
as for the devs agreeing with you, yeah I'm sure you just love all the body checks that exist now, I can tell you do!

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

idk it's kind of hard to understand unhinged posts, the moment someone disagrees = they are using 3rd party tools
as for the devs agreeing with you, yeah I'm sure you just love all the body checks that exist now, I can tell you do!

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Awh someone is mad they got called out and is trying to deflect.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Actually I was referring to forum posters that are only here to enjoy watching jobs being destroyed because they don't have a stake on anything and spend more time on the forums than on the game, but ouch that's a lot of projection.

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Let's apply Occom's Razer here. Either there are people who simply disagree with you as to what constitutes destruction of jobs OR there are people who pay to play a game but hate it so much, they secretly want to see it destroyed and go on the forums to see all the suffering. I'm personally going with the former.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

Let's apply Occom's Razer here. Either there are people who simply disagree with you as to what constitutes destruction of jobs OR there are people who pay to play a game but hate it so much, they secretly want to see it destroyed and go on the forums to see all the suffering. I'm personally going with the former.

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Troll razor would be most accurate

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Nah I don't like managing the eye. It is a feels bad mechanic to not go into LotD when I could. I will never understand the desire to be less powerful less frequently than your kit would enable you to be if you used resources as they became available. It's not even about complexity, it's just annoying to hold the eyes when I could be using nastrond.

You also still have positionals for wheeling thrust + fang and claw. The move that comes after will be non-directional. All this does is remove the quick step from flank to rear or rear to flank after using whichever positional you're at. It's good.

Same with removing spineshatter dive. It's just a generic dive that doesn't have a dragoon theme. It is most likely that dragonfire dive will get a 60 second cooldown and multiple charges to compensate for the loss. Which is superior thematically, for gameplay, and for animation. Spineshatter dive has a boring animation and little to no utility in trash pulls compared to dragonfire dive.

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(he doesn't play this job, but good post timing right?)

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Troll razor would be most accurate

(he doesn't play this job, but good post timing right?)

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Keep crying about people caring about different stuff than you lol. I like the rotations to actually make sense, and so does square enix. They gave us more charges of tsubame and meikyo to line up with both 60 minute and 2 minute buff windows, but it didn't happen as cleanly as they wanted it. Now they do. Same with dragoon, it is often not lining up cleanly or intuitively. Now it will.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Keep crying about people caring about different stuff than you lol. I like the rotations to actually make sense, and so does square enix. They gave us more charges of tsubame and meikyo to line up with both 60 minute and 2 minute buff windows, but it didn't happen as cleanly as they wanted it. Now they do. Same with dragoon, it is often not lining up cleanly or intuitively. Now it will.

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Have you played DRG at lvl 90?

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Have you played DRG at lvl 90?

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I don't have to have played at level 90 to experience the effects of LotD and holding onto eyes. What a weird gatekeeper you are hahahaha. "YOU DIDN'T PLAY ALL JOBS AT 90 YOUR OPINION IS INVALID CHECK MY PROFILE I CHECKED YOURS"

I don't enjoy holding onto eyes. If I have the power of two eyes I want to use them. Why would you object to getting into LotD every 30 seconds anyway? It's just more nastrond and more consistency. Do you even like playing the game or do you just want to show how flexible you are and how elite you are at optimization?

This game is designed for fun, it's not a job.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I don't have to have played at level 90 to experience the effects of LotD and holding onto eyes. What a weird gatekeeper you are hahahaha. "YOU DIDN'T PLAY ALL JOBS AT 90 YOUR OPINION IS INVALID CHECK MY PROFILE I CHECKED YOURS"

I don't enjoy holding onto eyes. If I have the power of two eyes I want to use them. Why would you object to getting into LotD every 30 seconds anyway? It's just more nastrond and more consistency. Do you even like playing the game or do you just want to show how flexible you are and how elite you are at optimization?

This game is designed for fun, it's not a job.

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I kinda just lost brains cells from all of that yapping

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I don't have to have played at level 90 to experience the effects of LotD and holding onto eyes. What a weird gatekeeper you are hahahaha. "YOU DIDN'T PLAY ALL JOBS AT 90 YOUR OPINION IS INVALID CHECK MY PROFILE I CHECKED YOURS"

I don't enjoy holding onto eyes. If I have the power of two eyes I want to use them. Why would you object to getting into LotD every 30 seconds anyway? It's just more nastrond and more consistency. Do you even like playing the game or do you just want to show how flexible you are and how elite you are at optimization?

This game is designed for fun, it's not a job.

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Thought so, you have no clue what you're talking about and every post you make on every single thread regarding any job comes purely from a place of hatred and bitterness towards anything resembling complexity, optimization, uniqueness and the 'elite' boogeymen. Even jobs you have zero interest playing, they must be brought down, and if people don't agree then they are using 3rd party scripts and are weebs for liking kaiten animation.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Thought so, you have no clue what you're talking about and every post you make on every single thread regarding any job comes purely from a place of hatred and bitterness towards anything resembling complexity, optimization, uniqueness and the 'elite' boogeymen. Even jobs you have zero interest playing, they must be brought down, and if people don't agree then they are using 3rd party scripts and are weebs for liking kaiten animation.

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Awh you're trying so hard to push a narrative.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Thought so, you have no clue what you're talking about and every post you make on every single thread regarding any job comes purely from a place of hatred and bitterness towards anything resembling complexity, optimization, uniqueness and the 'elite' boogeymen. Even jobs you have zero interest playing, they must be brought down, and if people don't agree then they are using 3rd party scripts and are weebs for liking kaiten animation.

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To be fair, most people who claim theres any job complexity in this game don't know what job complexity even is. Every job in this game is easy to play and easy to optimize with. Thats what happens when you design a modern actionbar GCD mmo with a playstation controller in mind. I hate this arguement that "you feel x way because you don't like complicated jobs, or optimizations or x y z high player thing"

It's a bit much because ffxiv are some of the easier to play classes across all major mmo's right now. They are extremely simple, you only have one way to properly play the classes with very few exceptions (blm I am looking at you) and many of the jobs share multiple abilities. I mean honestly look at energy drain on scholar. People clutch their pearls for energy drain optimization being the only thing that makes scholar "difficult" or "challenging". It's an absolute joke how simple of a mechanic that is. FF14 classes are not complicated in anyways. Their optimizations are just the only thing people have to look forward to doing. When you go into a new raid you don't get excited for "how many new ways can I play my job" you get excited for the new mechanics you have to adjust to. In other mmo's you have to actually play your class differently and with different abilities depending on the encounter.

Hearing "my complexity! my optimizations!" is so tiring because, really, how hard must video games be for people if ff14 classes are considered complex or challenging

This is gonna be a hot take, but keep Kaiten in the bin, BUT give SAM Hissatsu Soten from PVP, and let it buff Kaeshi skills. To experience why I would have such a take, go to Wolves' Den Pier on SAM and find a striking dummy. Use Ogi Namikiri, and weave in Hissatsu Soten before using Kaesihi Namikiri on the dummy (Ogi > Soten > Kaeshi). Such a maneuver would be incredibly risky, and highly rewarding, and it's the kind of funk I want to see more of in PVE.

I really don't want another expansion of shinten spam for SAM I must say. Hoping sam has some other spenders beyond that for DT. I still have kaiten on my bar, but given it's not back for DT I think I can safely remove it. A shame it was a really nice flavour for the job imo.

Still enjoy the job and I am excited to play around with it's new skills but I think I will do that later in the tier.

I'd like Kaiten back.

Not sure if anyone has made this point yet, but with the combo consolidation feature there is now PLENTY of space for Kaiten in hot bars/hot crosses.

Just make a kaiten emote that can be weaved in. Then the weebs will be happy.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Just make a kaiten emote that can be weaved in. Then the weebs will be happy.

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Nah. The correct solution is to upgrade Third Eye into Kaiten, and just make it work exactly the same but give slightly more kenki so they have an excuse to use the superior animation.

Kaiten's animation is terrible though so hard pass.

okay back to the topic: Kenki right now is just a Shinten gauge and the New Skill just a fancy looking Old School Guren that's a Cone. though I have the feeling that Shinten gets upgraded into Senei, basicly Shinten Spam becomes Senei Spam and maybe Kyuten becomes Guren? would skim off the ability bloat but we will see.

Another Problem that I have with the Kaiten Removal: You have no use for 20 Kenki anymore. Here's a little Challenge for those with an existing Attention Span:
regardless if you like Kaiten or not:
Think of Kaiten, Everytime you have 20 Kenki (preferably before you do something big, like an Iaijutsu or Ogi, hell every Weaponskill if you want)

It's going to be awkward when kaiten gets added back and you all have to then make a 35-page thread about why that's actually bad.

Kaiten's removal was the right call it made the job more accessible, this was not aimed at all for the high end playerbase.

However they also need to fix one thing that's a plague on job design.

"Shares a Recast with" abilities on a cooldown, but one does more ST and the other is AoE.

There is absolutely zero reason for H:Senei to exist when H:Guren shares a cooldown with it, they'd be better off just buffing Guren's ST contribution to be that of Senei while still having the cleave damage it does untouched. Shoha I and II are also the same problem, they're just an extra button for extra button's sake.
Every single "Shares a Recast with" ST and AoE variant with a cooldown and is not a no cooldown resource dump should be merged together for all Jobs.

Now when comparing these to the no CD Kenki Dumps of H:Shinten and H:Kyuten, I'd say these are vital as dumps as they provide both an AoE and a ST variant they don't share a cooldown and only cost a flat amount of resource to manage your job's power bar.

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Originally Posted by Pavise

Kaiten's removal was the right call it made the job more accessible, this was not aimed at all for the high end playerbase...

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Accessible to who exactly? The single-targeter in dungeon? The floor tank in any and all alliance raid? Or the MSQ enjoyer who presses Hakaze about 400 times before any other button and then swaps to Reaper because pressing any oGCD is way too hard for them? And how exactly did Kaiten's existence make SAM inaccessible to these strawmen-but-really-are just the type of players I have encountered just the last two days?

Inb4 "it's actually good for "midcore players"". Please explain why. Just saying words with no justification for anything said renders said words worthless, as are most opinions from tourists who "play SAM" to max level and not touch it till the next expansion, or engage with any meaningful content. No, gposing with your SAM glam for 10 hours a day is not "meaningful content" with regards to gameplay and definitely not "hunts" or "treasure maps" both of which are not affected at all by any single person's missing button presses, which is what you claim was affected detrimentally by Kaiten existing. One can even reasonably add any roulette content to that list because you can simply choose to not press buttons that you find "problematic" and get carried, which I doubt is new to the demographics you seem to think benefit from job simplification, here specifically by removing Kaiten.

Kaiten's issue was that it was competing with your two other Kenki Dumps, Shinten and Kyuten which had clear defined roles as the ST and AOE dumps, like them it was a no cooldown dump (from Shadowbringers onwards before that it had a 5s cooldown) with just the wording "increases next weapon attack's damage by 50%" so it's use case was already in conflict.

To anyone that calc'd the damage gain from using it you'd find out that it would only be a net gain per kenki spent if pressed on an Iaijutsu cast only and not for any other weaponskill in our arsenal, it was a trap for the game's casual player base (flame them all you want, but they make SE more money than your sub does) who did not put 2 and 2 together comparing potency per kenki which is a much larger portion of the playerbase than you might think and they do not come to these forums.

Kaiten's use was also not complex at all in the slightest you're only kidding yourself if you think so and if it does return it's not going to add any other complexity at all to your gameplay outside of lowering Shinten/Kyuten casts and putting you back to always keeping 20 kenki minimum for the next Iaijutsu which wasn't compelling gameplay at all.

Now SE would've had numbers on their side backing up how often Kaiten was even used by the playerbase, the fact that it was removed shows just how little it would've been utilised by the casual playerbase.

Lastly going right into ad-hominem to counter anyone who can see the reasoning as to why and isn't having a mental breakdown over it, shows you're maybe needing to take a step back and look at things in a different perspective for a change.

Kaiten wasn't competing with Shinten or Kyuten. Shinten and Kyuten were Excess Kenki Dumps + Kaiten being a 20 Kenki Spender also increased Kenki Usage over Shinten's/Kyuten's 25 Kenki.
Which is why Samurai now has less Kenki Interaction. Kinda like how they removed positionals from Monk, when you think about it. Which thinking also being reduced when your positionals are only at the Combo Enders aswell as Kenki being utilized just for burst..

Also Kaiten wasn't complex, it was fun.. and what are you talking about Shinten/Kyute having casts? Everyone can do Iaijutsu, but only masters have those 20 Kenki to boost the big hitters even bigger! That was the Deal of the Samurai and if you didn't like that, you in turn didn't like Samurai.

If SE would've cared they could've changed Kaiten to make the following weaponskill direct hit, suddenly Samurai would've leaned even further into the Self Heavy Hitter DPS than ever before, instead of "Hey! just do your lvl50 Rotation and pepper in some Shinten here and there, gg"

Kaiten on the otherhand just but a Spin on the basic Samurai Rotation that made it fun forever. But if SE would've used feedback correctly.. how do you explain Summoner?^^

The Problem is that Currently Kenki feels useless outside of some delayed bonus attacks instead of being a Natural Extension of the Samurai

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Originally Posted by Pavise

Kaiten's issue was that it was competing with your two other Kenki Dumps, Shinten and Kyuten which had clear defined roles as the ST and AOE dumps, like them it was a no cooldown dump (from Shadowbringers onwards before that it had a 5s cooldown) with just the wording "increases next weapon attack's damage by 50%" so it's use case was already in conflict.

To anyone that calc'd the damage gain from using it you'd find out that it would only be a net gain per kenki spent if pressed on an Iaijutsu cast only and not for any other weaponskill in our arsenal, it was a trap for the game's casual player base (flame them all you want, but they make SE more money than your sub does) who did not put 2 and 2 together comparing potency per kenki which is a much larger portion of the playerbase than you might think and they do not come to these forums.

Kaiten's use was also not complex at all in the slightest you're only kidding yourself if you think so and if it does return it's not going to add any other complexity at all to your gameplay outside of lowering Shinten/Kyuten casts and putting you back to always keeping 20 kenki minimum for the next Iaijutsu which wasn't compelling gameplay at all.

Now SE would've had numbers on their side backing up how often Kaiten was even used by the playerbase, the fact that it was removed shows just how little it would've been utilised by the casual playerbase.

Lastly going right into ad-hominem to counter anyone who can see the reasoning as to why and isn't having a mental breakdown over it, shows you're maybe needing to take a step back and look at things in a different perspective for a change.

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https://media1.tenor.com/m/EKt2Luq-i...t-so-brave.gif

You say "accessibility", but, no really, who was the Kaiten removal for? The turbocasuals who don't bother with any other basic mechanics of their jobs either? Like all the Dragoons who do only-single target in +80 dungeons. Or the tanks who've never heard of interrupts or having sprint on their hotbar. Or the Samurai you still never see using Higanbana. Yeah, those were clearing normal content just fine not having a care in the world. You can't dumb these jobs down enough to make everyone a good player, life finds a way. Was the idea that somehow Kaiten was the thing gatekeeping them from becoming savage raiders?

So why does matter if it was "too hard" for casual players to use Kaiten? It certainly wasn't for players actually engaging in content where performance mattered.

And even if it did cause some huge damage discrepancy under certain conditions - Why not just tone down the damage boost instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, like these devs love to do all the time, for some reason?

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Kaiten wasn't competing with Shinten or Kyuten. Shinten and Kyuten were Excess Kenki Dumps + Kaiten being a 20 Kenki Spender also increased Kenki Usage over Shinten's/Kyuten's 25 Kenki.
Which is why Samurai now has less Kenki Interaction. Kinda like how they removed positionals from Monk, when you think about it. Which thinking also being reduced when your positionals are only at the Combo Enders aswell as Kenki being utilized just for burst..[/B]

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They effectively were competing for the exact same resource, both were off global uses for it especially with Kaiten's CD reduction to 1s. Kaiten's PPK (Potency per Kenki) was just tuned higher for your Iajutsu casts so you hit a different button before using them.

Here's the thing, job guage interaction does not need to be anything further than a driver for a spender. The baseline rotation already takes up every single ounce of GCD space. The Job Guage is not there to give you multiple buttons to play with it's design is generally based around giving you something extra to manage throughout an encounter that's different from your main rotation, for Samurai it's a driver for oGCD attacks through Shiten and Kyuten.

This feeds into the Samurai fantasy of a blademaster who strikes calmly and precisely at the right moment (Iajutsu), while also having the speed in executing additional attacks when they see an opening (Shinten/Kyuten).

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Also Kaiten wasn't complex, it was fun.. and what are you talking about Shinten/Kyute having casts? Everyone can do Iaijutsu, but only masters have those 20 Kenki to boost the big hitters even bigger! That was the Deal of the Samurai and if you didn't like that, you in turn didn't like Samurai.[/B]

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Fun is entirely subjective, the fact that it was removed means it wasn't fun to others, the feedback that SE heard regarding the job itself.

Being hyperbolic in basically saying "IF YOU DONT LIKE BUTTER YOU MUST HATE POPCORN", someone can clearly like popcorn without liking butter.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

If SE would've cared they could've changed Kaiten to make the following weaponskill direct hit, suddenly Samurai would've leaned even further into the Self Heavy Hitter DPS than ever before, instead of "Hey! just do your lvl50 Rotation and pepper in some Shinten here and there, gg"

Kaiten on the otherhand just but a Spin on the basic Samurai Rotation that made it fun forever. But if SE would've used feedback correctly.. how do you explain Summoner?^^[/B]

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A dev team not designing how you want them to =/= them not caring. Realistically they see a lot more metrics regarding the game that you or I will never have access to so usually when they make certain changes it's not on a whim but usually data driven.

How that Data then converts to an enjoyable gameplay experience tends to differ per attempt at reacting to feedback.

Summoner is a different kettle of fish entirely and by some accounts the rework for it is highly praised and has seen a growth in it's playerbase relative to previous incarnations, on the other hand some people think it's the brussel sprouts of gameplay.

You'll never be able to make everyone happy, the aim is usually a medium between both camps when it comes to game design.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

You say "accessibility", but, no really, who was the Kaiten removal for? The turbocasuals who don't bother with any other basic mechanics of their jobs either? Like all the Dragoons who do only-single target in +80 dungeons. Or the tanks who've never heard of interrupts or having sprint on their hotbar. Or the Samurai you still never see using Higanbana. Yeah, those were clearing normal content just fine not having a care in the world. You can't dumb these jobs down enough to make everyone a good player, life finds a way. Was the idea that somehow Kaiten was the thing gatekeeping them from becoming savage raiders?

So why does matter if it was "too hard" for casual players to use Kaiten? It certainly wasn't for players actually engaging in content where performance mattered.

And even if it did cause some huge damage discrepancy under certain conditions - Why not just tone down the damage boost instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, like these devs love to do all the time, for some reason?

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Have you proof read your post? Or did you decide to just dribble some hyperbolic vitriol and think it made you sound cool?

While it is true you can't make something foolproof because there is always a bigger fool out there. What makes you think it's only casuals who didn't care for Kaiten and fedback their distaste for it over the years to SE? They take in multiple channels of feedback (mostly from JP).

As for why Kaiten wasn't reduced in potency? For one simple reason my dude. Potency per Kenki, which makes it so you want to press abilities over others. Reducing it's contribution and leaving it in was not on the cards due to it would have an adverse effect on Shinten, Kyuten, Guren and Senei.

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Originally Posted by Pavise

While it is true you can't make something foolproof because there is always a bigger fool out there. What makes you think it's only casuals who didn't care for Kaiten and fedback their distaste for it over the years to SE? They take in multiple channels of feedback (mostly from JP).

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I don't have a horse in this race as I don't play SAM, but at least within the forums JP also wants kaiten back. Quite vocally too compared to their usual feedback.

I don't disagree there's a vocal minority at all asking for it back, but people need to realise that the game forums are not a proper representation of the whole player base as it is only a minute fraction of the playerbase that even uses it.

Feedback is collected from many sources before it is actioned.

Oh great, another "silent majority" whisperer.

EDIT: Do yo actually have anything worthwhile to respond with, or are you just going to ignore every point other posters make and instead make the most vague possible appeal to authority you can't really identify, show that agrees with you, explain why they are a reliable authority, or prove even indeed exists?

And oh please, don't play dumb, you know the answer is that Shinten damage/kenki cost could have been rebalanced just as easily as Kaiten. That's no more an issue than changing Kaiten's effective potency.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Oh great, another "silent majority" whisperer.

EDIT: Do yo actually have anything worthwhile to respond with, or are you just going to ignore every point other posters make and instead make the most vague possible appeal to authority you can't really identify, show that agrees with you, explain why they are a reliable authority, or prove even indeed exists?

And oh please, don't play dumb, you know the answer is that Shinten damage/kenki cost could have been rebalanced just as easily as Kaiten. That's no more an issue than changing Kaiten's effective potency.

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So what you're saying is kaiten wasn't fine as is and needed other abilities to be tuned around it to make it acceptable?

Let it go lol the ability was cringe and it's good it is gone.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Oh great, another "silent majority" whisperer.

EDIT: Do yo actually have anything worthwhile to respond with, or are you just going to ignore every point other posters make and instead make the most vague possible appeal to authority you can't really identify, show that agrees with you, explain why they are a reliable authority, or prove even indeed exists?

And oh please, don't play dumb, you know the answer is that Shinten damage/kenki cost could have been rebalanced just as easily as Kaiten. That's no more an issue than changing Kaiten's effective potency.

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yupp, the lack of a 20 Kenki Spender stings and also changing Kaiten to do Direct Hit wouldn't have been a problem for many.. unless SE themselves admit that Direct Hit is Trash, what I doubt though.

Does the silent majority really care if they add or remove Kaiten or will they just keep playing the game for whatever reason that they were already playing it before? Will Kaiten being live or dead stop them from grinding CT or fishing or outfits or MGP or fall guys?

Why not listen to the minority that does care, clearly pretty passionately? Sounds like they're the main ones affected by it to me.

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Originally Posted by Post

Does the silent majority really care if they add or remove Kaiten or will they just keep playing the game for whatever reason that they were already playing it before? Will Kaiten being live or dead stop them from grinding CT or fishing or outfits or MGP or fall guys?

Why not listen to the minority that does care, clearly pretty passionately? Sounds like they're the main ones affected by it to me.

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It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people. They either weren't using kaiten at all, which was a problem, or they would use it wrong, which is just as much of a problem. Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

Not that I don't agree that cries about the silent majority of kaiten dislikers doesn't ring hollow. There's no evidence that we have access to that indicates this either way.

But I will turn this around on you; the people who won't give up on kaiten obviously don't care either because from what I understand, you can't post here without an active sub. Y'all aint cancelling, why would they revert?

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people. They either weren't using kaiten at all, which was a problem, or they would use it wrong, which is just as much of a problem. Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

Not that I don't agree that cries about the silent majority of kaiten dislikers doesn't ring hollow. There's no evidence that we have access to that indicates this either way.

But I will turn this around on you; the people who won't give up on kaiten obviously don't care either because from what I understand, you can't post here without an active sub. Y'all aint cancelling, why would they revert?

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Why do jobs need to be changed around people being unable to read tooltips or learn their class? Bc no matter how much you trim away for the sake of 'ease of access' you're always going to have a bunch of people who just press whatever buttons they like in whatever order they like, and get through every piece of sub extreme content just fine bc that's how the game is designed.

If you design classes around people who don't want to or care to play the classes the way there were designed, you are eventually going to end up asking yourself why you're bothering to design them in the first place. The fact that I still see people screwing up classes like summoner to this day just tells me that theres no sense in endlessly simplifying jobs bc they will never, ever be simple enough for the apparent target audience.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people. They either weren't using kaiten at all, which was a problem, or they would use it wrong, which is just as much of a problem. Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

Not that I don't agree that cries about the silent majority of kaiten dislikers doesn't ring hollow. There's no evidence that we have access to that indicates this either way.

But I will turn this around on you; the people who won't give up on kaiten obviously don't care either because from what I understand, you can't post here without an active sub. Y'all aint cancelling, why would they revert?

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I can fully believe that there were people who did not understand how Kaiten worked, but I don't see why this justifies its removal. The devs could have just as easily reworded its tooltip to say that it 'increases the potency of your next Iaijutsu by 50%' to make its function more clear. Why does 'throw it out' have to be the solution to everything in this game that isn't 100% perfect?

And I'm gonna be real, I'm struggling to accept that Kaiten was the main reason those SAMs were bad. Think about the main reason why any player in this game underperforms: it's because they can't keep their GCD rolling. Removing Kaiten was never going to help with this. Unless you're prepared to argue that Kaiten was somehow preventing these people from keeping their GCD rolling.

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Originally Posted by Kissune

If you design classes around people who don't want to or care to play the classes the way there were designed, you are eventually going to end up asking yourself why you're bothering to design them in the first place. The fact that I still see people screwing up classes like summoner to this day just tells me that theres no sense in endlessly simplifying jobs bc they will never, ever be simple enough for the apparent target audience.

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I got curious and took a peek at FFLogs, and I was absolutely floored by what I found:
https://i.imgur.com/b2S4W17.png
Despite being the easiest and most straightforward job to play, Summoner somehow has the most variation in DPS scores among every job in savage. Like, that lower bound is absolutely appalling. It's Summoner. How are people messing up this badly?

Personally my biggest issue with Kaiten removal is that only Shinten is left as a Kenki spender.
I didn't mind Kaiten removal in itself, but being left with Shinten spam was an issue to me because Kaiten was the more interesting of the two.
Shinten spam requires little thought whereas Kaiten spam (if Shinten would have been removed instead) would have been more interesting as you'd have had a priority of boostable skill.
It could have also been possible to tie it to new trait.
Like, if you Kaiten each 3 of the sticker generator you'd get a super midare.(random idea).
But there's nothing to do with Shinten.

The same goes for WAR (with upheavel rage cost removal), DRK, DNC and even SCH when it comes to ressource management.
If a ressource is solely only used for a single skill that has no specific interaction with the kit, then it falls flat and becomes uninteresting.

There need to be friction with the ressource use. there need to be a reason for you to hold on it or not (beside having a full bar every 2mins), so basically, a need for ressource management.

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It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people. They either weren't using kaiten at all, which was a problem, or they would use it wrong, which is just as much of a problem. Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

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That's a very fair and valid point and most likely the reason for its removal.
But then, why not simply make it simplier in understanding?
Why not simply make that Kaiten makes your next skill a crit+dh and double DoT duration.
This way there's no way a bad player doesn't understand. Crit > no crit, DH > no direct hit, 60s DoT > 30s DoT.

In term of gameplay, you still keep it and you make it really clear onto why it should be used on your biggest skills.

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Originally Posted by Silhart

Despite being the easiest and most straightforward job to play, Summoner somehow has the most variation in DPS scores among every job in savage. Like, that lower bound is absolutely appalling. It's Summoner. How are people messing up this badly?

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Oh lord... I can understand BLM because it's rather easy to mess up your rotation and loose enochian when you start. But SMN... like you litterally have to only think of "where do I put ifrit" every minute. And even if you miss that, loosing 2 ifrit gcd wouldn't make you do that low of a DPS. Just how...