Open World PvP

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Ashes of Creation I am betting will try its hardest to get those hardcore PvP players in.. but as soon as their usual grief other players out of the game happens. Well they will either change the game to make everyone else's lives easier or their game will go p2w and die a slow death. So many have their hopes up for that game but it looks ready to fail already and it's not even near out yet. Happy with ffxiv not having PvP be a major part of the game.

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Kinda strange to assume something of a game that isn’t even out of alpha yet... It looks much more promising as a game with its gameplay and lore system/world building than 14 at least. Looking forward to it much more than Endwalkers at this point.Kinda sounds like people are a bit scared of finally having some competition eh? :D

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Originally Posted by Anhra

There is no fairness or balance in PvP, a good PvP setting usually is quite the mess in one way or another.

In case you have forgotten or simply dont know, The Feast was originally designed with fairness and balance in mind, since so many of the casual community asked for it. Now, the only fairness that exist within that mode, is the handful of people that not only inhabit it, but monopolize all the ranking rewards for themselves within a certain discord channel. And they get away with the wintrading
every.
single.
time.

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I can't speak of the pvp community in this particular game, especially with wintrading, but this seems like another example of fair being dull.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Kinda strange to assume something of a game that isn’t even out of alpha yet... It looks much more promising as a game with its gameplay and lore system/world building than 14 at least. Looking forward to it much more than Endwalkers at this point.Kinda sounds like people are a bit scared of finally having some competition eh? :D

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This game goes into the same bucket as Star Citizen. I'll see if I care a month after it releases.

I hope Ashes of Creation does very well for itself. FFXIV could certainly do with some healthy competition to prevent stagnation and it'd force the development team to be bolder and more creative in their attempts to maintain relevance.

It seems like a win/win scenario to me.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

There is no fairness or balance in PvP, a good PvP setting usually is quite the mess in one way or another.

In case you have forgotten or simply dont know, The Feast was originally designed with fairness and balance in mind, since so many of the casual community asked for it. Now, the only fairness that exist within that mode, is the handful of people that not only inhabit it, but monopolize all the ranking rewards for themselves within a certain discord channel. And they get away with the wintrading
every.
single.
time.

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Well, I wouldn't go as far as to call the very concept of competiton within videogames completely absent of fairness. I am sure it is possible to create a system that matches players in a fair way, just like sports in real life. Cathegories are possible. Of course it is in human nature to push the limits of everything, including its own rules.

I understand the whole "This is why we can't have nice things" around PVP, and how it can hurt a game and a community. Precisely that is why I personally think Open World PVP would hurt more FFXIV's community than help it flourish. That being said, maybe the devs could surprise us. Maybe they could turn the whole system upside down and create a good WPVP system, but so far I am skeptical.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

...but this seems like another example of fair being dull.

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Then instanced zerg chaotic random team 72 players arenas should be right up your alley.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Then instanced zerg chaotic random team 72 players arenas should be right up your alley.

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Sorry what? My eyes drooped at "instanced" and I started to drift off.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Sorry what? My eyes drooped at "instanced" and I started to drift off.

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Too bored to have discussion then. What are you even doing here?

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

ESO now has yet another new premium currency added to it since I last played. Glad I didn't get too into that game either. Every nicer mount I like the look of is in it's cash shop and not even for crowns its those freaking Gems from loot boxes, nightmare.

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I have been playing ESO for the past few months and the cash shop is becoming pretty intrusive. And people are becoming pretty free and open at throwing pretty significant amounts of money around for loot boxes and houses. It's kinda disappointing TBH? I dropped the game a week ago, ESO feels like an unhealthy habit to really dive into imo.

An interesting read for anyone invested in WPVP, or for FFXIV devs- check out the WoW forums/reddit for threads titled 'Testing Same-Faction Battlegrounds in Burning Crusade Classic'. It technically is about instanced pvp, but it's heavily effected by wpvp balance, and most of the discussion in the threads is regarding wpvp, which in wow is opt in.

Consider the insane vitriole, hatred between factions and the developer that all stems solely from wpvp issues.

I don't think SE can do wpvp well (I actually don't think any of the developers that focus on it do it well either)- they can barely do instanced pvp.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

An interesting read for anyone invested in WPVP, or for FFXIV devs- check out the WoW forums/reddit for threads titled 'Testing Same-Faction Battlegrounds in Burning Crusade Classic'. It technically is about instanced pvp, but it's heavily effected by wpvp balance, and most of the discussion in the threads is regarding wpvp, which in wow is opt in.

Consider the insane vitriole, hatred between factions and the developer that all stems solely from wpvp issues.

I don't think SE can do wpvp well (I actually don't think any of the developers that focus on it do it well either)- they can barely do instanced pvp.

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Rest in pieces Alliance. Was so fun in WPvP also running around outnumbered 4 to 1 all day and not being able to get much done :(

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Kinda strange to assume something of a game that isn’t even out of alpha yet... It looks much more promising as a game with its gameplay and lore system/world building than 14 at least. Looking forward to it much more than Endwalkers at this point.Kinda sounds like people are a bit scared of finally having some competition eh? :D

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Not at all... Literally just people go from hype train to hype train. And a lot of it's systems are not looking that great to me at all frankly. Only a handful of people getting a flying mount for example, get it via PvP, Gold or being voted mayor. So top pvpers who group and keep themselves the top dogs can fly, anyone who can get away with gold farming can have one and every twitch streamer with a following too also gets one. The rest of us? Nah get f*cked. Housing? Well you can lose that too. A group of players attack your home area and poof goes your house that you and your community called home. The way they are building their systems is ready to cater to small groups of players at the expense of the rest. All so that things can feel "exclusive" Congratz on your handful of peacocks, meanwhile the rest of your playerbase is upset they cannot reach the goals they would like too.

And yes.. it's not even out of Alpha! After how much milking of hopeful players for HUNDREDS of dollars for their packs that have what in them? A mount and some other digital things? Woopie. Those players have seen more or less nothing for their investment. They have had millions in backing from other sources on top of that. Frankly why even release the game when you have so many players desperate for something different they will throw fistfuls of money at you for a game that isn't even playable yet? I wouldn't be shocked if the game never even came out. And if it does finally release in a few years, there is no hope for that game to live up to the expectations for it to be the game changer so many are hoping it will be.

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Originally Posted by Rae88

I have been playing ESO for the past few months and the cash shop is becoming pretty intrusive. And people are becoming pretty free and open at throwing pretty significant amounts of money around for loot boxes and houses. It's kinda disappointing TBH? I dropped the game a week ago, ESO feels like an unhealthy habit to really dive into imo.

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I redownloaded it a couple weeks ago because I previously did enjoy the questing. And I never felt the cash shop to be bad until they added loot box.. and now they added something else on top?! Pass, uninstalled it again and I won't bother buying it's expansions going forward. If ffxiv ever added a loot box it would be my last month subbed rofl
MMO's in general just feel pretty stale atm, tired of them all falling down the same path of cash grabbiness. Bless and it's zillion rereleases is laughable at this point.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

..

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Perhaps that game isn't for you, and that's okay if it isn't!

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Perhaps that game isn't for you, and that's okay if it isn't!

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Ofc, but I like PvP games.. and I was hype for Ashes for a brief time. However, experience in other games already lets me know where there is exclusivity there will be players that get in early and will root themselves in so hard it's nigh impossible to get them out. Most players will join the strongest guild on the server, not make a competing one. I am happy to work my butt off for things, to fight for things, but make it available to everyone who puts in that effort. Not the few players that get in early or join the top dogs.

BDO had the top guilds and they sat in their castles getting ever higher payouts for doing so. But they wanted PvP so they would dip out that guild, go to an alt guild and then crap on lower level guilds on the node wars! Because ofc they did not want to risk losing their payouts on the main guild! They and other guilds WOULD NOT compete against each other. But they still wanted the fun of mowing down lower geared players. These are the people who will come to Ashes as well and they will pull the same as they did in BDO. For all they claim to love a real fight, they don't actually want to risk a thing. So they will have their little agreements not to fight so they can keep what they have, meanwhile the rest of the playerbase is getting suppressed by them coming over to stomp on them for funsies. Gotta make sure they cannot catch up to you and become a threat after all.

Ashe's mix of tab target and action combat though was what really put me off. Tab target in PvP I hate with a passion! If people can enjoy the game when it comes out great! But with how much they have sold already.. there will be players with about a dozen mounts, pets and outfits from level one from all the throwing of money they have done rofl. I can see it now.. it's day one and you're new.. then rides past a level 1 on his mighty steed bought for $300

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Perhaps that game isn't for you, and that's okay if it isn't!

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I thought we weren't allowed to say that. Or is it ok now?

Players being rewarded for the effort they put into a game sounds pretty sweet to me. I guess that's the thing about personal tastes - there's no right or wrong and they differ from person to person.

Perhaps it might mean that other MMO's will have more players out in the game world rather than congregating in the major cities as is often the case in FFXIV.

Josh Strife Hayes did a really nice video on why hardcore PvP MMOs don't satisfy most people ... after a few months. Don't have much hope for Ashes either TBH :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFh-Y7sdXXQ

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Players being rewarded for the effort they put into a game sounds pretty sweet to me.

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But that's the thing, World PVP is only fair at the very beginning. Only the winners are rewarded for their effort. And they are rewarded with more power better gear, more exp, higher level. That increases the gap between winners and losers, between new players and old players.
Matches are never a fair playing field and that is what ultimately ends up breaking the system.

In pvp matches like we have, the gear is equalized, the skills are "balanced", the teams have equal number of participants so as to ensure an equal playing field.

You might find that boring, and you may not be wrong, but its the best solution to make the matches attractive to the average player.

If a player believes the game is lost from the beginning, why would they try to even compete? To serve as target practice to others?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Players being rewarded for the effort they put into a game sounds pretty sweet to me. I guess that's the thing about personal tastes - there's no right or wrong and they differ from person to person.

Perhaps it might mean that other MMO's will have more players out in the game world rather than congregating in the major cities as is often the case in FFXIV.

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The problem is that people's efforts are not rewarded at all. I could grind for hours, pvp in my node wars and be active the entire week. But a player sat in that castle doing NOTHING still made more silver. Overall I would ignore those players as much as I could. But when it came to top grind spots, well good luck trying to grind a spot to catch up. Esp once they made PvP changes that made gear even MORE important. Previously I could out duel a person with 100 gear score higher than me. Once they changed things so that gear trumps all. Well the game was as good as dead to me at that point.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

But that's the thing, World PVP is only fair at the very beginning. Only the winners are rewarded for their effort. And they are rewarded with more power better gear, more exp, higher level. That increases the gap between winners and losers, between new players and old players.
Matches are never a fair playing field and that is what ultimately ends up breaking the system.

In pvp matches like we have, the gear is equalized, the skills are "balanced", the teams have equal number of participants so as to ensure an equal playing field.

You might find that boring, and you may not be wrong, but its the best solution to make the matches attractive to the average player.

If a player believes the game is lost from the beginning, why would they try to even compete? To serve as target practice to others?

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Yah. Then the people who can no longer win anymore quit, the playerbase shrinks, the gap gets even wider, more of the people who can't win quit, the playerbase becomes tiny, only the winners remain. People complain that nobody wants to play PvP and start asking why :S

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Originally Posted by Rae88

Yah. Then the people who can no longer win anymore quit, the playerbase shrinks, the gap gets even wider, more of the people who can't win quit, the playerbase becomes tiny, only the winners remain. People complain that nobody wants to play PvP and start asking why :S

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Exactly. The top two guilds on my server back then used to only have pre arranged fights on their alt guilds so they would not risk losing a castle. All the while peacocking about how much better PvPers they were and how hard they work to earn their winnings. Like.. You guys have not done any real risk reward PvP since the first year of the game xD

I loved the smaller scale PvP my guild would fight in. Over grind spots or gathering areas etc. We were a smaller more skilful group. We often had fights with much bigger guilds and they were hard but felt so good to outplay those people. Even moreso when they were so cocky and rude to you after you politely asked if they would swap channel as you were at the spot first. But it was widely known if u just want to sit and rake in money.. go join one of those two guilds. And even then, those players got so bored because they were not doing anything they quit and then it was just one guild. Then they changed PvP to make it more gear based, more quit and later came the full P2W.

i wish people would do their research before bashing a game that isnt even out of testing yet. Ashes has said their pvp system would vary from other mmo's. Each pvp season would be different and reset so theres more chances for everyone to get what they want. You're all assuming so much from the little bit of info yall have read. I could assume something like Endwalkers being horrible and will just have even less content than this expansion, but of course then id have multiple people telling me omg you dont know that youre just assuming. So much negativity in this community when it comes to other games i swear. Toxic towards wow players, toxic towards eso players. Now we're bashing on a game thats still in development and where the devs actually seem to care about the game and its playerbase. Yikes. Guess theres no room for other mmo's only ff14 which is just steadily losing content and the community is kissing up to the devs more and more in hopes of them getting their precious gpose stickers and umbrellas. Sad...

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

i wish people would do their research before bashing a game that isnt even out of testing yet. Ashes has said their pvp system would vary from other mmo's. Each pvp season would be different and reset so theres more chances for everyone to get what they want. You're all assuming so much from the little bit of info yall have read. I could assume something like Endwalkers being horrible and will just have even less content than this expansion, but of course then id have multiple people telling me omg you dont know that youre just assuming. So much negativity in this community when it comes to other games i swear. Toxic towards wow players, toxic towards eso players. Now we're bashing on a game thats still in development and where the devs actually seem to care about the game and its playerbase. Yikes. Guess theres no room for other mmo's only ff14 which is just steadily losing content and the community is kissing up to the devs more and more in hopes of them getting their precious gpose stickers and umbrellas. Sad...

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I spent the past 5 months diving into ESO. I hopped into WoW Classic at launched and no lifed that before the ganking and faction imbalance got out of control. I've played WoW Retail. I've played GW2. I'll be hopping into New World July 20th.

But sure, no room for any other MMO ...

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

i wish people would do their research before bashing a game that isnt even out of testing yet. Ashes has said their pvp system would vary from other mmo's. Each pvp season would be different and reset so theres more chances for everyone to get what they want. You're all assuming so much from the little bit of info yall have read. I could assume something like Endwalkers being horrible and will just have even less content than this expansion, but of course then id have multiple people telling me omg you dont know that youre just assuming. So much negativity in this community when it comes to other games i swear. Toxic towards wow players, toxic towards eso players. Now we're bashing on a game thats still in development and where the devs actually seem to care about the game and its playerbase. Yikes. Guess theres no room for other mmo's only ff14 which is just steadily losing content and the community is kissing up to the devs more and more in hopes of them getting their precious gpose stickers and umbrellas. Sad...

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Beyond the forum I have seen no wow hate within the game, I have not seen any ESO player hate at all personally. I said if people enjoy the game great, but for xyz reasons im not hyped for the game and I think it wise not to let the hype train get away from you and set unreasonable expectations. The only one with their knickers in a twist here is you.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Beyond the forum I have seen no wow hate within the game, I have not seen any ESO player hate at all personally. I said if people enjoy the game great, but for xyz reasons im not hyped for the game and I think it wise not to let the hype train get away from you and set unreasonable expectations. The only one with their knickers in a twist here is you.

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My “knickers” aren’t in a twist but keep repeating that line at people. It’s just so funny to me how hypocritical people are in saying “don’t get hyped over this, oh geez this system is so flawed.” Yet they’re the same people that blindly defend every little thing about 14 and can’t handle criticism about the game. If you’re going to give criticism for a game, at least do you’re research before you do. Cuz it really does show when you don’t. You don’t see WoW hate in game? Say hi to Scottzone.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

My “knickers” aren’t in a twist but keep repeating that line at people. It’s just so funny to me how hypocritical people are in saying “don’t get hyped over this, oh geez this system is so flawed.” Yet they’re the same people that blindly defend every little thing about 14 and can’t handle criticism about the game. If you’re going to give criticism for a game, at least do you’re research before you do. Cuz it really does show when you don’t. You don’t see WoW hate in game? Say hi to Scottzone.

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Pathetic Twitch culture continues to be pathetic imo. I have to reiterate the same as Aelin, I don't see much WoW hate in the actual game. BUT if you go to, for example, Asmongold's OWN STREAM there's so much WoW hate in that stream it's ridiculous. People seem to think that a lot of WoW people who have left seem to have an irrational hatred of that game, because it's not like FFXIV players watch Asmon's stream yet people keep hating on WoW over there.

WoW's a good game if you're a raider. If you love hardcore raid content imo it's still the best game for you. No hate of WoW from me :)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

My “knickers” aren’t in a twist but keep repeating that line at people. It’s just so funny to me how hypocritical people are in saying “don’t get hyped over this, oh geez this system is so flawed.” Yet they’re the same people that blindly defend every little thing about 14 and can’t handle criticism about the game. If you’re going to give criticism for a game, at least do you’re research before you do. Cuz it really does show when you don’t. You don’t see WoW hate in game? Say hi to Scottzone.

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Go look in the housing section of the forum, I'm fine with criticism of this game. And the systems I have said I don't like in Ashe's i.e flying, housing and the tab target... is all fact? Soo... dno what you are getting at really.
Yes, Scottzone. A single nutter sent him a death threat and a bunch of die hards got butt hurt as they are want to do. He realised that streaming was not for him and moved on, I still follow him on twitter, he seems to be doing well happily! And again, that's on twitch. Twitch chat is already pretty bad as it is on a good day for a lot of creators. You mean to tell me WoW or other games do not have such people? They are everywhere. But ff by and large has a nicer community and in part that is because there is no conflict in the game set up. No fighting for spots, the worst you will get is the nightmare that is house placard clicking.

Today in my Crystal tower runs on my alt I seen more sprouts than ever and most were from WoW as we were all talking in alliance chat due to wipes since ykno.. they were new and had not a clue on mechanics! Everyone was lovely apart from one single person who was impatient to pull and left. 1 pooper in 24 people and he was not even salty because they were wow players xD At the end after taking them through it all they said they were loving the game and how nice everyone was. I think that speaks volumes that they themselves say how much worse the WoW community is. I don't need to say a negative thing about WoW at all, their own players will do it. I am thrilled they are coming here and I hope they enjoy the game as much as I do. Same goes for anyone from any other game.

I check the Ashes website every few months and what do I see on their front page? Pre order for the ALPHA buy this buy this and get these shinies! And it has been buy this or that every time I have looked. It does not fill me with hope at all. But again, if YOU want to have fun playing it go for it. I will forego the game until I see where it is headed AFTER launch if that day ever comes..

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Each pvp season would be different and reset

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Also can you please link to where there will be server resets in Ashes of Creation? Apocalypse had resets but that was an Arena game, Ashes of Creation will have seasons measuring your performance before those RANKS are reset at the end, but I have found nothing about actual server resets at the end of a PvP season.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Go look in the housing section of the forum, I'm fine with criticism of this game. And the systems I have said I don't like in Ashe's i.e flying, housing and the tab target... is all fact? Soo... dno what you are getting at really.
Yes, Scottzone. A single nutter sent him a death threat and a bunch of die hards got butt hurt as they are want to do. He realised that streaming was not for him and moved on, I still follow him on twitter, he seems to be doing well happily! And again, that's on twitch. Twitch chat is already pretty bad as it is on a good day for a lot of creators. You mean to tell me WoW or other games do not have such people? They are everywhere. But ff by and large has a nicer community and in part that is because there is no conflict in the game set up. No fighting for spots, the worst you will get is the nightmare that is house placard clicking.

Today in my Crystal tower runs on my alt I seen more sprouts than ever and most were from WoW as we were all talking in alliance chat due to wipes since ykno.. they were new and had not a clue on mechanics! Everyone was lovely apart from one single person who was impatient to pull and left. 1 pooper in 24 people and he was not even salty because they were wow players xD At the end after taking them through it all they said they were loving the game and how nice everyone was. I think that speaks volumes that they themselves say how much worse the WoW community is. I don't need to say a negative thing about WoW at all, their own players will do it. I am thrilled they are coming here and I hope they enjoy the game as much as I do. Same goes for anyone from any other game.

I check the Ashes website every few months and what do I see on their front page? Pre order for the ALPHA buy this buy this and get these shinies! And it has been buy this or that every time I have looked. It does not fill me with hope at all. But again, if YOU want to have fun playing it go for it. I will forego the game until I see where it is headed AFTER launch if that day ever comes..

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By which metric do you determine that ff14 has a "nicer" community?

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Originally Posted by Rae88

Also can you please link to where there will be server resets in Ashes of Creation? Apocalypse had resets but that was an Arena game, Ashes of Creation will have seasons measuring your performance before those RANKS are reset at the end, but I have found nothing about actual server resets at the end of a PvP season.

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Even if they do, that still makes my housing issue even worse. Imagine... you defend your settlement only to have it summarily demolished at the end of a set time period anyway? I have seen them say nothing of the sort thus far but I have not followed the game's development religiously. I know that they want their node system to work like this,

Player activity will level up a node.
There can only be so many max level nodes. These node's can have player housing.
If you as a group of players want your node to become a larger one for housing, you must attack and downgrade another node. Thus you can build a house on your newly upgraded node once you have removed someone else's houses.
This for ME, sucks. You just got done decorating and then someone comes along and wrecks your home. Your small guild has no real place to call home. A reset if your merry band managed to survive an attack would just rub more salt into the wound.

Flying mounts again they want only so many. I love horses, it's the sole reason I ever even started playing BDO and it's one of my little pet peeves in this game that their proportions on most mounts are so weird. For me, limiting the amount of pegasus on the server to the richest, most popular or top pvper is off-putting. Twitch streamers will be mayors, possibly even some of the richest given fans penchant to give as much of their money as they can. Top PvPers consolidate themselves into groups to stay at the top. For everyone else a flying mount is not attainable at all.

And tab target when you are in group PvP is a nightmare. Have fun trying to tab to that 1 person lashing you from afar when he is surrounded by a dozen of his allies.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

By which metric do you determine that ff14 has a "nicer" community?

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Have I taken a census of the entire playerbase to get a % of opinion? No. If you want pure numbers you already know you won't get it. But considering I have WoW players telling me regularly how much nicer ff players are, my own lovely experience when I was new, my own efforts towards new players, new players telling me their experiences etc etc

It is not so hard to think ff overall has a nicer community. Even this forum. It's toxic posters are nothing compared to others I have been on. Even a casual game of League of Legends is worse.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Have I taken a census of the entire playerbase to get a % of opinion? No. If you want pure numbers you already know you won't get it. But considering I have WoW players telling me regularly how much nicer ff players are, my own lovely experience when I was new, my own efforts towards new players, new players telling me their experiences etc etc

It is not so hard to think ff overall has a nicer community. Even this forum. It's toxic posters are nothing compared to others I have been on. Even a casual game of League of Legends is worse.

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It's interesting to dismiss well known public incidents, as just one-off situations, to only reinforce your views with anecdotal evidence.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

It's interesting to dismiss well known public incidents, as just one-off situations, to only reinforce your views with anecdotal evidence.

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A one off situation wasn't a one off situation now?

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Originally Posted by Rae88

A one off situation wasn't a one off situation now?

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Scottzone hasn't been the only streamer that was harassed.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Scottzone hasn't been the only streamer that has been harassed.

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And he won't be the last.. FOR ANY GAME.

There are zealots (and trolls mind you) in every game fanbase. Nobody is saying FFXIV has no bad people playing.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Scottzone hasn't been the only streamer that was been harassed.

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He was the only one sent a death threat and chased off the platform.

"Harrassment" is such a subjective and low bar it's fairly meaningless to talk about. There was an incident in Aether the other day where people were arguing that the songbirds bots were toxic, shortly after they (well someone) chased them off Siren *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

And he won't be the last.. FOR ANY GAME.

There are zealots (and trolls mind you) in every game fanbase. Nobody is saying FFXIV has no bad people playing.

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Nobody is saying it's the only game that has the issue. People are merely pointing out that it DOES exist in FFXIV, to which is met with vitriol.

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Originally Posted by Rae88

He was the only one sent a death threat and chased off the platform.

"Harrassment" is such a subjective and low bar it's fairly meaningless to talk about. There was an incident in Aether the other day where people were arguing that the songbirds bots were toxic, shortly after they (well someone) chased them off Siren *shrugs*

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If it's so meaningless to talk about and "subjective", why does this community constantly gatekeep, and throw a fit whenever WoW players are coming over?

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Nobody is saying it's the only game that has the issue. People are merely pointing out that it DOES exist in FFXIV, to which is met with vitriol.

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People were never saying there weren't bad actors in FFXIV. People were saying it has a nicer community. Whether this is true or not is usually based off anecdotal evidence, which may only be observation but observation is firstly the first step in any scientific method and secondly when enough people observe the same thing tends to carry some weight.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

If it's so meaningless to talk about and "subjective", why does this community constantly gatekeep, and throw a fit whenever WoW players are coming over?

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The community as a whole doesn't. But as has been said before there are bad actors in every community *shrugs*