"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

On what plane of reality is advice so frowned upon in real life?

Experienced people give others pointers all the time in recreational activities / hobbies IRL when they see someone floundering, even more-so if there are shared stakes.

Is this a regional thing perhaps? Where I'm from, these kinds of interactions are almost always seen as a positive thing.

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The plane of reality where people take any input on what they're doing as a personal attack. Hallmark of people who pretend to care about others, when it's a smokescreen to cover their own asses.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Let me know which school has teachers allowing students to answer incorrectly to a question and only let's them know they were wrong afterwards, in private.

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This teacher-student alegory is not as well thought as you think it is.

For one, one is in a position of power/authority above the other; do you really think it is an equal situation to two players playing the same game using their own money?

To wit: I am not against people giving advices to those who are playing terribly. I just don't think this comparison is an apt one.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

The plane of reality where people take any input on what they're doing as a personal attack. Hallmark of people who pretend to care about others, when it's a smokescreen to cover their own asses.

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Oh please get off your high horse, just because people disagree with you doesn't make them inept, any more than your fervor for this topic makes you any better of a player except in your own mind.

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Originally Posted by Kanjien

Oh please get off your high horse, just because people disagree with you doesn't make them inept, any more than your fervor for this topic makes you any better of a player except in your own mind.

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I didn't know bogging down your group willfully was just a disagreement.

Yes, not all of them are inept. Some are just lazy and don't care about others.

And I am a better player. I don't bog down my party.

This finally made it to page 2 of the forums, and you had to bump it. Shaaaaaaaame!

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

This finally made it to page 2 of the forums, and you had to bump it. Shaaaaaaaame!

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No, keep it going. This is my favorite thread.

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Originally Posted by Kanjien

Oh please get off your high horse, just because people disagree with you doesn't make them inept, any more than your fervor for this topic makes you any better of a player except in your own mind.

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Is there another reason these people are so ready to push for the criminalization of basic advice and standards?

I mean, if you're bad and don't want to get called out it tracks that you'd try to attach negative stigma to anyone pointing out your poor play. Your only other route would be to improve and we all know how tOxIc and eLiTiSt that is.

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Originally Posted by Kanjien

Oh please get off your high horse, just because people disagree with you doesn't make them inept, any more than your fervor for this topic makes you any better of a player except in your own mind.

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I mean if we're being brutally honest here, a large percentage of XIV's playerbase is inept and incapable. It just so happens that most of the individuals who fit into that descriptor also happen to fall cleanly within the mindset of attempting to attach negative connotations to the sheer act of an individual giving another individual advice in an attempt to help better them as a player.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

I mean if we're being brutally honest here, a large percentage of XIV's playerbase is inept and incapable. It just so happens that most of the individuals who fit into that descriptor also happen to fall cleanly within the mindset of attempting to attach negative connotations to the sheer act of an individual giving another individual advice in an attempt to help better them as a player.

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No one's applying a negative connotations to criticism. I am explaining the already established negative connotation towards criticizing people in public. If the idea was to avoid criticism I'd be telling you not to do it at all; I wouldn't be telling you to simply do it in private.

Pulling someone aside to criticize them is just the polite thing to do. What I'm telling you about how to interact with people won't just help you communicate more effectively in this game; it's something you can apply to real life to.

You'll get a far more positive, receptive response if you're polite. That's what you want, isn't it... For casual players to be receptive of your advice?

5.3 can't come soon enough to let this garbage die.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

No one's applying a negative connotations to criticism.

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Yes they are. You in particular are doing exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

I mean if we're being brutally honest here, a large percentage of XIV's playerbase is inept and incapable. It just so happens that most of the individuals who fit into that descriptor also happen to fall cleanly within the mindset of attempting to attach negative connotations to the sheer act of an individual giving another individual advice in an attempt to help better them as a player.

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Be careful, the air up there where your head is will cause an oxygen deficiency. No one is saying that feedback is bad. I am not even saying that unsolicited advice is bad. The point is that if you give advice in a group setting unsolicited then don't be surprised or upset if many people get defensive with you. It is human nature, some people can't handle criticism well, especially in public. Is that a fault in their character? Probably, but we all have our strengths and weaknesses. By pointing out how inept you think the player base is, you just glaringly come across as arrogant and narcissistic. I love feedback, even when it makes me uncomfortable, because I can always improve in whatever I am doing. The key is how you give the feedback, are you really interested in helping the person get better or are you just venting about another inept player ruining your perfect game world? Even in text it is not hard to tell the difference.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Yes they are. You in particular are doing exactly that.

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How so?

Here's the rest of what I posted, which explained what I am actually doing; in case you missed it.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

No one's applying a negative connotations to criticism. I am explaining the already established negative connotation towards criticizing people in public. If the idea was to avoid criticism I'd be telling you not to do it at all; I wouldn't be telling you to simply do it in private.

Pulling someone aside to criticize them is just the polite thing to do. What I'm telling you about how to interact with people won't just help you communicate more effectively in this game; it's something you can apply to real life to.

You'll get a far more positive, receptive response if you're polite. That's what you want, isn't it... For casual players to be receptive of your advice?

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I remember one time back in Stormblood when running expert, I got a tank that refused to take any feedback. As a tank main, it's the one thing I know I'm decent at. I ran healer on this particular rub and I noticed that the DRK was losing aggro to dps with tank stance on, so I decided to watch his pulls. He was only using unleash one time. So I said "Hey, I just noticed the dps hit pretty hard so you may want to use unleash a few more times on your pull to generate aggro." And the response I got was "Just stop. I know what I'm doing. I'm level 70." It was then I realized there was no helping this person so I quietly finished the dungeon and left. People are so against getting advice these days that it drives me insane. I love getting feedback on my performance so I know what to improve on. I don't get why so many others don't.

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Originally Posted by Kanjien

Be careful, the air up there where your head is will cause an oxygen deficiency. No one is saying that feedback is bad. I am not even saying that unsolicited advice is bad. The point is that if you give advice in a group setting unsolicited then don't be surprised or upset if many people get defensive with you. It is human nature, some people can't handle criticism well, especially in public. Is that a fault in their character? Probably, but we all have our strengths and weaknesses. By pointing out how inept you think the player base is, you just glaringly come across as arrogant and narcissistic. I love feedback, even when it makes me uncomfortable, because I can always improve in whatever I am doing. The key is how you give the feedback, are you really interested in helping the person get better or are you just venting about another inept player ruining your perfect game world? Even in text it is not hard to tell the difference.

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By pointing out that a large percentage of the playerbase is incompetent is simple objective facts. After all, the bare average is always, in any setting, going to be at 50%. That means that 49% of the playerbase is below-average and, thus, falls into the previous subset. Of course, not every 'below average' player I would classify as 'bad'. To me, a bad player is someone who knows that they are playing poorly and has no interest or intent on improving; instead expecting the rest of their party to carry their weight in whatever content they may be doing, whether that be a simple dungeon run or an EX trial. At the end of the day most players in XIV I don't necessarily have issues with, and consequentially I would estimate around 70% of my roulette runs are 'fine' by extension. Maybe not as fast as I would like them to be, but nothing going so wrong or so poorly that I feel obligated to speak up about something. However, it's the other 30% (again, rough estimate) of the time that is where things go awry and, frankly, I would argue that noteworthy issues arising on such a high percentage as 30% is, in and of itself, an issue.

Been playing these types of games, since the 90s. This is the first mmo I played, where people got upset over advice I had given them. I don't call people names, and what I say is to the point. Tells don't help. They'll just accuse you of harassing them and not letting it go, if anything. People always assume I am angry and generally refer to me in a derogatory term, but that is not the case. And while I am blunt, I don't try to make anyone feel subhuman. I chose my words carefully. They don't.

It's not casuals that are the issue. Most casuals are great. But there are a few people that don't care about how their habits and attitudes affect others.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

In a classroom the teacher student relationship is already established. In a roulette it isn't, but if you WANT to take on a party member as a student you should address them in the most courteous way you can. They'll be more receptive of your request to be their teacher if you're not rude to them.

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A roulette is a cooperative environment, meaning the input of your fellow teammates does matter. This is like sitting in a work environment and letting a fellow colleague continue to do something that is slowing down the completion of your project and you are suggesting that "Oh, dont say anything publically, pull them aside and do it privately. Otherwise youre being rude." This makes even less sense because the actions of a fellow colleague may end up ruining hte project and it cannot wait til after wards to be addressed. Life is complicated, sometimes things have to be addressed on the spot. Now how you do that is in your control, and to what degree is as well.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

No one's applying a negative connotations to criticism. I am explaining the already established negative connotation towards criticizing people in public. If the idea was to avoid criticism I'd be telling you not to do it at all; I wouldn't be telling you to simply do it in private.

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And the issue that you keep stumbling over is that you keep conflating calling out, criticism, and advice as all being inherently negative if done publicly without request. Your position, in response to all this, is to not say anything at all in a public setting otherwise it is calling someone out or applying criticism/critique and is rude.

Again, quoting you: (In regards to my comment about advice vs calling out and criticism)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It actually does fall into the category of criticism. Not all criticism is offered with bad intentions or an accusatory tone, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude to do it in public.

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The issue with this stance comes down to two major issues: The intent of the speaker and the interpretation of the listener.

As I outlined earlier, by your own line of thinking, congratulating someone at the end of a run is also not allowed and rude because that tacitly implies critique of their performance. If you want to take that one step further, if you fail to say anything, you can be construed as tacitly disapproving their performance, or if you choose to congratulate one person but not another, you are giving approval to one and implied disapproval to another.

If you take a hot second to think about what is being stated, it's essentially a 'damned if you do, damned if you dont' scenario where your motives and intentions are decided by the interpretation of the other party and not you. This isnt a functional model to work by, particularly in a group co-op environment.

The other side of the issue, the interpretation of the speaker, undermines your basic logic - That it is less rude to do it privately. Offense is always taken, never given. While that little saying is a bit simple, the concept is that no matter what you do, it is ultimately going to be the receiving party that will decide if theyre offended or not. So whether you do it in front of your party through any means (criticism, critique, advice, callingout, whatever) or you do it in private through a tell, if the receiver thinks youre being rude, youve accomplished nothing. You have not done anything less rude, because the listener assumes your intent to be rude.

Quite literally "I didnt ask for your advice, so stop whispering me. It's Rude." The only thing you might be sparing, and that isnt even guarenteed, is the potential embarrassment a person in front of other people. But if embarrassment is what youre hoping to spare a person from, doing it in private doesnt solve that because at that point you are affirming that you knew the player was doing things that encouraged you to whisper them for advice. So now theyre embarrassed you noticed (or potentially so). Even if you couch the message with "Hey, did you want advice for 'x'", you get the implicit implication that you think something is up and they need help/coaching/advice.

It does not matter how you frame it, how you do it, how you go about it, by the way you suggest you encounter the very same problems - not avoid, and depending on the interpretations of the listener, your actions can come across as even ruder, possibly patronizing, because you decided to 'call them out' or 'criticize' them in private rather than giving them the dignity and fairness to assume that theyre a mature person who can handle advice and criticism fairly in front of others.


It's lose/lose by your metric.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

By pointing out that a large percentage of the playerbase is incompetent is simple objective facts. [...]

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Any evidence? Except your very subjectiv opinion....

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Been playing these types of games, since the 90s. This is the first mmo I played, where people got upset over advice I had given them. I don't call people names, and what I say is to the point. Tells don't help. They'll just accuse you of harassing them and not letting it go, if anything. People always assume I am angry and generally refer to me in a derogatory term, but that is not the case. And while I am blunt, I don't try to make anyone feel subhuman. I chose my words carefully. They don't.

It's not casuals that are the issue. Most casuals are great. But there are a few people that don't care about how their habits and attitudes affect others.

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Honestly, this is the first MMO I've ever played where people are so adamant with advice, and become so immediately offended if their advice isn't taken.

Back when I played WoW I carried people all the time in easy content. Many people did. The only time people started caring about "bad" players was in difficult content.

Maybe it's the lack of actual difficult content in this game that makes people want to be all serious and critical in the easy stuff.

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Originally Posted by Tho-Much

Any evidence? Except your very subjectiv opinion....

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Yes, actually, it's called basic logic. If 50% is the breakpoint for what is 'average', and by sheer definition 50% will always be that breakpoint, then it simply falls to reason that the 49% below that breakpoint are 'below average'.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Honestly, this is the first MMO I've ever played where people are so adamant with advice, and become so immediately offended if their advice isn't taken.

Back when I played WoW I carried people all the time in easy content. Many people did. The only time people started caring about "bad" players was in difficult content.

Maybe it's the lack of actual difficult content in this game that makes people want to be all serious and critical in the easy stuff.

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Well, herein lies the problem.

People don't realize they are bad because we aren't allowed to speak up for fear of offending someone and being reported.

These people then go into harder content, are told they are bad because they can't follow basic mechanics and even the most basic of job rotations, let alone the more advanced mechanics and job optimizations.

Then, they come on the forums and complain about "toxic elitists", and how hard content is too hard and should be nerfed because "I paid for it, and so I should be able to do it"

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

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Congratulating someone isn't criticism; congratulations are outlining a positive in someone's performance. Offering advice is criticism by design, as it's outlining a negative in someone's performance. But like I said, not all criticism is done with bad intentions or an accusatory tone. It's still rude to do in public, though.

I'm also not saying that doing it in private guarantees a receptive response. They may still tell you to take a walk and quit harassing them, but it's entirely on them at that point. You didn't criticize/embarrass them in public and did everything in your power to be courteous.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well, herein lies the problem.

People don't realize they are bad because we aren't allowed to speak up for fear of offending someone and being reported.

These people then go into harder content, are told they are bad because they can't follow basic mechanics and even the most basic of job rotations, let alone the more advanced mechanics and job optimizations.

Then, they come on the forums and complain about "toxic elitists", and how hard content is too hard and should be nerfed because "I paid for it, and so I should be able to do it"

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Most people who play this game will never go into hard content. There's very little of it and you have to actively seek it out. Players who decide they want to be Savage raiders are generally going to be well aware that learning and solid play will be required.

The casuals who complain about toxic elitists are likely experiencing them in roulettes, and other easy content. In roulettes I feel like some people just want to come up with reasons to take them way more seriously than necessary. People want to feel like there are stakes, because they don't get to feel that way often in this game.

It's easy stuff, though; why care THAT much that you're carrying the occasional bad player?

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Originally Posted by Tho-Much

Any evidence? Except your very subjectiv opinion....

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Shall we start with nerfing of several "hard" duties, asking to nerf several more and the addition of a Very Easy mode to solo instances, due to several complaints that they were "too hard"?

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Been playing these types of games, since the 90s. This is the first mmo I played, where people got upset over advice I had given them. I don't call people names, and what I say is to the point. Tells don't help. They'll just accuse you of harassing them and not letting it go, if anything. People always assume I am angry and generally refer to me in a derogatory term, but that is not the case. And while I am blunt, I don't try to make anyone feel subhuman. I chose my words carefully. They don't.

It's not casuals that are the issue. Most casuals are great. But there are a few people that don't care about how their habits and attitudes affect others.

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Of course it doesn't work they wanted to leech and you caught them.
Kinda like a teenager get mad at his mom for entering his room because he was caught doing something he shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Most people who play this game will never go into hard content. There's very little of it and you have to actively seek it out. Players who decide they want to be Savage raiders are generally going to be well aware that learning and solid play will be required.

The casuals who complain about toxic elitists are likely experiencing them in roulettes, and other easy content. In roulettes I feel like some people just want to come up with reasons to take them way more seriously than necessary. People want to feel like there are stakes, because they don't get to feel that way often in this game.

It's easy stuff, though; why care THAT much that you're carrying the occasional bad player?

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Because if everyone was bad, no one would get anything done, and there aren't first class players and second class players, so they don't get the privilege of slacking off when others aren't.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Because if everyone was bad, no one would get anything done, and there aren't first class players and second class players, so they don't get the privilege of slacking off when others aren't.

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People who want to be good at the game take it upon themselves to do so, and there are enough of those kinds of people to get the very sparse difficult content in this game done.

Your advice in roulettes isn't turning casual players into serious ones, and there's no reason to flip out about "carrying" casual players in easy content.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

People who want to be good at the game take it upon themselves to do so, and there are enough of those kinds of people to get the very sparse difficult content in this game done.

Your advice in roulettes isn't turning casual players into serious ones, and there's no reason to flip out about "carrying" casual players in easy content.

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Having people who take upon themselves to be good at the game doesn't mean you get to take advantage of them and slack off.

It's selfish and rude to boot.

"I have good people at my work group so I can rely on them, do a lousy job and pass thanks to their work."

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Most people who play this game will never go into hard content. There's very little of it and you have to actively seek it out. Players who decide they want to be Savage raiders are generally going to be well aware that learning and solid play will be required.

The casuals who complain about toxic elitists are likely experiencing them in roulettes, and other easy content. In roulettes I feel like some people just want to come up with reasons to take them way more seriously than necessary. People want to feel like there are stakes, because they don't get to feel that way often in this game.

It's easy stuff, though; why care THAT much that you're carrying the occasional bad player?

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Except the thread about ex fights in mentor roulette speaks otherwise.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Having people who take upon themselves to be good at the game doesn't mean you get to take advantage of them and slack off.

It's selfish and rude to boot.

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Hell, technically it's rude to not be doing everything in your power to play 100% optimally in all content when you're grouped with others. Anything less and you're shortchanging the people around you to make your own life easier.

Having to be offended every time a DPS plays sloppy; a Healer doesn't DPS; a tank doesn't wall to wall just sounds exhausting to me. Carrying the occasional "bad" players is a lot more fun than your life in roulettes sounds.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Hell, technically it's rude to not be doing everything in your power to play 100% optimally in all content when you're grouped with others. Anything less and you're shortchanging the people around you to make your own life easier.

Having to be offended every time a DPS plays sloppy; a Healer doesn't DPS; a tank doesn't wall to wall just sounds exhausting to me. Carrying the occasional "bad" players is a lot more fun than your life in roulettes sounds.

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I don't know where this argument is coming from, because doing your rotation well in roulettes isn't hard at all or exhausting.

They're not occasional and you've already proven yourself to not be on the carrying side of the field. ;-)

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

I don't know where this argument is coming from, because doing your rotation well in roulettes isn't hard at all or exhausting.

They're not occasional and you've already proven yourself to not be on the carrying side of the field. ;-)

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Actually, it's usually the ones who complain the hardest about "carrying" people that are projecting and overcompensating. Like if you whine enough about bad players you'll convince the world that you're not one. ;)

I never said doing your basic rotations is exhausting, but that's not all it takes to play 100% optimally.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Actually, it's usually the ones who complain the hardest about "carrying" people that are projecting and overcompensating. Like if you whine enough about bad players you'll convince the world that you're not one. ;)

I never said doing your rotations is exhausting, but that's not all it takes to play 100% optimally.

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Actually it's usually the ones aware of their underperforming who like to demonize and dehumanize people who pick up the slack and only want effort fairness during duties. ;-)

It's mostly about damage/rotations. Tanks who can't tank and healers who can't heal make duty completion nearly impossible. If it's not exhausting, why not do it anyway? Why defend not doing it anyway, unless you're defending your own playstyle? ;-)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Congratulating someone isn't criticism; congratulations are outlining a positive in someone's performance. Offering advice is criticism by design, as it's outlining a negative in someone's performance. But like I said, not all criticism is done with bad intentions or an accusatory tone. It's still rude to do in public, though.

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It is under your premises. Congratulating them on a "Job well Done" is literally saying "You did this thing good and I approve of it." It is a criticism/critique/etc, and is being done so publicly, which is what you are stating, is a nono. As I pointed out, saying nothing also falls into a public criticism, so does saying it to some and not to others. Because the issue isnt you, its them. How they receive it is where youre placing the emphasis. How they 'might' or 'might not' take something is determining your actions, when in reality at some point you got to just throw up your hands and say things and let them sort it out.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm also not saying that doing it in private guarantees a receptive response. They may still tell you to take a walk and quit harassing them, but it's entirely on them at that point. You didn't criticize/embarrass them in public and did everything in your power to be courteous.

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It seems like you get the flaws of your point, but dont want to take it to the logical conclusion. Doing it in private does not guarantee anything because you cannot control how the other person feels about anything. Even if done privately and politely, it may be taken as rude and offensive and there isnt a lick of anything you can do about that. That is the nature of human interactions - sometimes, even at your politest, people take it poorly.

It seems that to you, politeness means sparing embarrassment, because offering advice, even in a tell, is criticism. So you arent sparing them that. And as I already addressed, you have no guarentees of sparing embarrassment either.

You are still screwed no matter how you cut it by your metrics. You run the risk of embarrassing them, criticizing them, etc whether its in a tell or in public. No matter how you couch your language, they can take it negatively.

The only thing you have control of is what you say and do - and for the sake everyone involved, it makes more sense to (politely) offer up advice to help correct an issue in real time than to sit back, do nothing, and wait for the duty to end or fail before saying a thing. Which at that point you still have all the same risks involved that youre trying to avoid.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Actually it's usually the ones aware of their underperforming who like to demonize and dehumanize people who pick up the slack and only want effort fairness during duties. ;-)

It's mostly about damage/rotations. Tanks who can't tank and healers who can't heal make duty completion nearly impossible. If it's not exhausting, why not do it anyway? Why defend not doing it anyway, unless you're defending your own playstyle? ;-)

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I'm not defending doing it or not doing it; I just don't care when people don't do it.

The content is easy and you clear fast 99% of the time, even if the healer isn't DPSing, so why create an issue? I'm only demonizing the people who start crap over nothing; and a healer not DPSing in a roulette is nothing. I'd just prefer you pick fights over the injustice of it all when I'm not around to be annoyed by it. ;) ;)

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

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Critique isn't the same as criticism. Critique can be outlining a positive, whereas criticism is always outlining a negative. Advice is always outlining a negative, so it's criticism. There's no different ways to interpret it, so no matter how hard you try to play at semantics it won't work.

There's also no flaw in the point of doing it privately. Doing it privately is just more polite; the fact that being more polite doesn't guarantee the result you want doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Doing it privately may still embarrass and/or anger them, but it's less likely to because it's the polite approach. That's the point of being polite; to ease the person you're talking to and make them more receptive, but obviously doing things right doesn't guarantee anything.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm not defending doing it or not doing it; I just don't care when people don't do it.

The content is easy and you clear fast 99% of the time, even if the healer isn't DPSing, so why create an issue? I'm only demonizing the people who start crap over nothing; and a healer not DPSing in a roulette is nothing. I'd just prefer you pick fights over the injustice of it all when I'm not around to be annoyed by it. ;) ;)

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For someone who doesn't care, you're pretty passionate about defending it.

Sorry, but the needs of the many outrank the needs of the few. If people speaking up about issues ("picking fights" as you call it - as mentioned before, it's only a fight for people adamant about slacking off) bothers you that much, consider playing a single player game or a competitive multi-player one. You get to Mr. "self absorbed I don't want no drama" all you want.

Imagine defending being silent about issues because he doesn't want to be stressed by drama (in his eyes).

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

For someone who doesn't care, you're pretty passionate about defending it.

Sorry, but the needs of the many outrank the needs of the few. If people speaking up about issues ("picking fights" as you call it - as mentioned before, it's only a fight for people adamant about slacking off) bothers you that much, consider playing a single player game or a competitive multi-player one. You get to Mr. "self absorbed I don't want no drama" all you want.

Imagine defending being silent about issues because he doesn't want to be stressed by drama (in his eyes).

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Right, it's only picking a fight if the person you pick a fight with fights back. ;)

There's no "need of the many" you're fighting for; it's just your need to pick at people that you're trying to satisfy. That's your deal; it's not something everyone else needs to be onboard with. That's why I'd probably just vote kick people who pick fights. Let the "many" decide whether or not they want to let you work out your frustrations on their time.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Right, it's only picking a fight if the person you pick a fight with fights back. ;)

There's no "need of the many" you're fighting for; it's just your need to pick at people that you're trying to satisfy. That's your deal; it's not something everyone else needs to be onboard with. That's why I'd probably just vote kick people who pick fights. Let the "many" decide whether or not they want to let you work out your frustrations on their time.

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The only one calling it picking a fight is you, because you consider it a nuisance. Funny how you say I'm only doing it for myself when you just basically admitted that "I don't care about your complaints so shut up and stop whining". You're only against because at a basic level, you know you're the same as the person needing to receive advice. You consider it rude and a nuisance because you consider it an attack on your playstyle.

Ofc they do. Picking up the slack is a win-win for everyone involved, including the slacker.

Trying to vote kick me would imply actually being on the duty, and not having been already kicked for differences of playstyle due to slacking off. ;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

The only one calling it picking a fight is you, because you consider it a nuisance. Funny how you say I'm only doing it for myself when you just basically admitted that "I don't care about your complaints so shut up and stop whining". You're only against because at a basic level, you know you're the same as the person needing to receive advice. You consider it rude and a nuisance because you consider it an attack on your playstyle.

Ofc they do. Picking up the slack is a win-win for everyone involved, including the slacker.

Trying to vote kick me would imply actually being on the duty, and not having been already kicked for differences of playstyle due to slacking off. ;-)

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I'm against it because 2 people arguing isn't helping finish the run. All it's accomplishing is letting you work out your frustration at "carrying" someone, while the person you singled out gets defensive. The only winner in that situation is you; because you got to pick at someone who made you mad. The rest of us get to sit around watching 2 people uselessly snipe at each other.

So, like I said, pick fights on your own time. You're not doing anyone else any favors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm against it because 2 people arguing isn't helping finish the run. All it's accomplishing is letting you work out your frustration at "carrying" someone, while the person you singled out gets defensive. The only winner in that situation is you; because you got to pick at someone who made you mad. The rest of us get to sit around watching 2 people uselessly snipe at each other.

So, like I said, pick fights on your own time. You're not doing anyone else any favors.

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Except my point isn't picking fights. It's giving advice so that in a 4 person team, there's not only 3 people giving significant contribute.

And like I said, you're only calling it picking a fight because giving advice to underperformers for some deep seated reason bothers you at a fundamental level.

Not to mention that, if the person heeds the advice, not only will you save time in the current run but also any future runs the person runs will be significantly shorter.