Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

Would appreciate an in game DPS meter or PPS (potency per second) meter.

They add value to the experience and provide useful information. It would be nice if I didn't need to place my trust in a 3rd party application.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

So that story alone proves what you are saying to be false.

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I'm sorry but nowhere did I say it's impossible to tell if a DPS player is bad, only that it's so infinitely easier to tell if a tank or healer is bad that determining this about a DPS is like a forensics investigation by comparison.

If the tank can't hold aggro, you know the tank isn't doing their job. If the tank dies, the healer isn't doing their job. You know these facts IMMEDIATELY without needing to look at gear for even a moment.

The situation you described sadly proves my point: you basically had to interview this DPS while examining their gear to get the info you needed, info which should really be readily available in a game that features DPS checks as part of the challenge.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I'm sorry but nowhere did I say it's impossible to tell if a DPS player is bad, only that it's so infinitely easier to tell if a tank or healer is bad that determining this about a DPS is like a forensics investigation by comparison.

If the tank can't hold aggro, you know the tank isn't doing their job. If the tank dies, the healer isn't doing their job. You know these facts IMMEDIATELY without needing to look at gear for even a moment.

The situation you described sadly proves my point: you basically had to interview this DPS while examining their gear to get the info you needed, info which should really be readily available in a game that features DPS checks as part of the challenge.

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The person in question did that AFTER seeing how slow stuff was dying. Gear is not a concern, overall performance is. They where just trying to figure out WHY it was so bad. So.. this situation would taken the same course with a DPS meter. Also you did say "never" so you are disagreeing with your own post, maybe an edit is in order.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

The person in question did that AFTER seeing how slow stuff was dying. Gear is not a concern, overall performance is. They where just trying to figure out WHY it was so bad. So.. this situation would taken the same course with a DPS meter. Also you did say "never" so you are disagreeing with your own post, maybe an edit is in order.

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I said: "a DPS player can be utterly horrible at their role yet never get called out for it".

Again, I acknowledge later in the OP that it's possible to get called out, but it's also entirely possible people pulling 130 DPS will never even know just how poorly they're playing, largely because of how easy it is to hide in a group of 8 or even 24 players.

It definitely CAN happen, but compare it to how much easier it is to tell when a tank or healer is underperforming and you'll see what I was trying to say.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I said: "a DPS player can be utterly horrible at their role yet never get called out for it".

Again, I acknowledge later in the OP that it's possible to get called out, but it's also entirely possible people pulling 130 DPS will never even know just how poorly they're playing, largely because of how easy it is to hide in a group of 8 or even 24 players.

It definitely CAN happen, but compare it to how much easier it is to tell when a tank or healer is underperforming and you'll see what I was trying to say.

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I think the answer is really quite simple. A lot of the encounters the DPS requirements are not essential to passing the task. The tank dies, its obviously noticeable. Healer dies, its obviously noticeable. If DPS is bad but encounter gets cleared...

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

I think the answer is really quite simple. A lot of the encounters the DPS requirements are not essential to passing the task. The tank dies, its obviously noticeable. Healer dies, its obviously noticeable. If DPS is bad but encounter gets cleared...

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Exactly.

Healers and tanks are held to a standard that DPS players aren't, and that's both generally unfair and also makes the two least played roles played even less, which only drives queue times up further for DPS players.

If being a DPS carried with it the same level of responsibility as a healer or tank, we'd probably see queue times level out for everyone.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Exactly.

Healers and tanks are held to a standard that DPS players aren't, and that's both generally unfair and also makes the two least played roles played even less, which only drives queue times up further for DPS players.

If being a DPS carried with it the same level of responsibility as a healer or tank, we'd probably see queue times level out for everyone.

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Until it actually does though.

i haven't been in the endgame scene for a while (long break) but when BCoB Turn 4 and 5 were really hard, bad DPS meant u lost. Flat out. Its sad because its about 5% of content that makes it noticeable.

I play all 3 roles. Tank and Heals i prefer because I KNOW i do a good job at them (above and beyond bare essential reqs). Even though I love DRG (in all FF games) you yourself know if u killed it, but others don't.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Until it actually does though.

i haven't been in the endgame scene for a while (long break) but when BCoB Turn 4 and 5 were really hard, bad DPS meant u lost. Flat out. Its sad because its about 5% of content that makes it noticeable.

I play all 3 roles. Tank and Heals i prefer because I KNOW i do a good job at them (above and beyond bare essential reqs). Even though I love DRG (in all FF games) you yourself know if u killed it, but others don't.

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You mean until a DPS check shows up to challenge the DPS players?

Absolutely, and that one is very much SE's fault: if you level a tank or a healer and participate in any manner of group content, you either learn your role or get kicked repeatedly.

The fact that DPS don't experience this same scrutiny ultimately makes them worse off in the long run and in for a rude awakening when they finally DO come up against a DPS check. :(

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

I think the answer is really quite simple. A lot of the encounters the DPS requirements are not essential to passing the task. The tank dies, its obviously noticeable. Healer dies, its obviously noticeable. If DPS is bad but encounter gets cleared...

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But when everyone BUT the tank dies, and the fight is still cleared...same stuff happens.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

But when everyone BUT the tank dies, and the fight is still cleared...same stuff happens.

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Many encounters where the tank is the only one left, it is usually not the tanks fault.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

The person in question did that AFTER seeing how slow stuff was dying. Gear is not a concern, overall performance is. They where just trying to figure out WHY it was so bad. So.. this situation would taken the same course with a DPS meter. Also you did say "never" so you are disagreeing with your own post, maybe an edit is in order.

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Your friend was guilty of kick abuse. Letting go till end and kicked ng right before final boss.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Your friend was guilty of kick abuse. Letting go till end and kicked ng right before final boss.

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Before first boss* its like 3 pulls

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

By the time they where on the last pull before the first boss

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The only abuse was done was that DPS cheating the ilevel requirement. if it says you need an average ilevel of 300, it means ilevel 300 with having all your spells and level 70 quest done. There needs to be more requirements in the game using the DF before you should be able to queue for something. Do you think it i right for a lv 70 BLM to do the last level 70 dungeon without foul or being prepared properly? On top of the lack of communication on the BLM's part?

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I said: "a DPS player can be utterly horrible at their role yet never get called out for it".

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and that is false, that is my issue. "Almost never" would been more fitting

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Your friend was guilty of kick abuse. Letting go till end and kicked ng right before final boss.

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Kicking for bad performance and lack of communication are titled under "differing playstyles". Its completely allowed. Regardless if you don't agree with it it's not abuse, even if it was at the final boss.

Sorry misread it, thought you were at end of run.

Put a minigame in the Saucer or something that rewards players based on their output, like a strongman competition. Have a completed round show average stats of other players at your level range (no gear stats compiled, just you, your knowledge, and your available skills). Keep it private, not showing names in a competitive environment or leaderboard.

Boom, in-game parser without having an actual parser. Totally accessible and rewarding to use.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Put a minigame in the Saucer or something that rewards players based on their output, like a strongman competition. Have a completed round show average stats of other players at your level range (no gear stats compiled, just you, your knowledge, and your available skills). Keep it private, not showing names in a competitive environment or leaderboard.

Boom, in-game parser without having an actual parser. Totally accessible and rewarding to use.

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No because most players lose dps while doing mechanics: they stop hitting buttons completely, don't keep uptime if they're a melee because they play way too safe, or just mess up their rotation constantly while doing mechanics. There are plenty of players who hit decent stone sea sky dps, but their real fight dps is beyond terrible.

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Originally Posted by Salted

No because most players lose dps while doing mechanics: they stop hitting buttons completely, don't keep uptime if they're a melee because they play way too safe, or just mess up their rotation constantly while doing mechanics. There are plenty of players who hit decent stone sea sky dps, but their real fight dps is beyond terrible.

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Plus this also doesn't take into account party buffs. Bard damage in particular is heavily reliant on the performance of other members in the party as well, particularly the presence of any job that can boost their critical hit rate.

Anyone that has ever leveled a Bard to 70 will tell you that SSS is a terrible metric. And if you haven't leveled a Bard and still think SSS is a good enough metric, go level a Bard and witness how they basically transform into ranged Monks with the presence of a Dragoon/Astro/Scholar properly using their support. The difference can mean as much as a 8-10%+ damage increase.

What prevents the "parser" minigame from having mechanics that players have to work around? Even the hall of the novice has mechanics.

The whole point of removing gear stats and buffs is that being good at it would require YOU to actually master YOUR personal rotation. You want a high score? You need to maximize yourself against varying enemies and move around, just like a normal play.

I just feel like if we want a tool that actually gives us a good environment to practice that players will actually use without provocation. SSS is too simple. Hall of Novice is too easy.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

What prevents the "parser" minigame from having mechanics that players have to work around? Even the hall of the novice has mechanics.

The whole point of removing gear stats and buffs is that being good at it would require YOU to actually master YOUR personal rotation. You want a high score? You need to maximize yourself against varying enemies and move around, just like a normal play.

I just feel like if we want a tool that actually gives us a good environment to practice that players will actually use without provocation. SSS is too simple. Hall of Novice is too easy.

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I don't think a minigame is the solution, because the best training to get better in a specific fight like v4s is actually doing v4s. That holds true for every role imo, despite me speaking from an healer standpoint here. Don't get me wrong, i still want an training arena for healers and so on, but overall this won't be a good way to judge the performance in a specific fight, because mechanics are different and everyone has problems with other mechanics.

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

I don't think a minigame is the solution, because the best training to get better in a specific fight like v4s is actually doing v4s. That holds true for every role imo, despite me speaking from an healer standpoint here. Don't get me wrong, i still want an training arena for healers and so on, but overall this won't be a good way to judge the performance in a specific fight, because mechanics are different and everyone has problems with other mechanics.

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I don't think that's her/his point. This mini game would be for the casual peeps that have no idea how to play their roles lol. Give people who probably have no intention of stepping into O4S a way to gauge their performance, but make it kinda fun. This whole thread seems to be talking about casuals in DF coasting by with no idea where their performance should sit, this idea seems like something someone might take a crack at for the lols and actually learn something in the process. Not saying it couldn't use some work, but the spirit of it isn't bad.

Its true that without a 3rd party thingy ,DD are just in a paradise,they can do shit,no one can really see it,and if you do,they will report you for having a parse.

I think one of the bigger problems is the in game training was made for ARR. With people blowing through it now they don't get to experience any of the ilvl mechanic and DPS gates that used to be a problem. Believe it or not, Titan was a DPS check at one time.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I think one of the bigger problems is the in game training was made for ARR. With people blowing through it now they don't get to experience any of the ilvl mechanic and DPS gates that used to be a problem. Believe it or not, Titan was a DPS check at one time.

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I know,i remember that titan ex very well,even one of my best time.

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

I know,i remember that titan ex very well,even one of my best time.

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i am pretty sure Krotoan was talking about Titan hm. yes, the three hm primals were endgame back in 2.0 and people wiped for months on them.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...M-Titan-Fight? good old times ^^

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Originally Posted by Tint

i am pretty sure Krotoan was talking about Titan hm. yes, the three hm primals were endgame back in 2.0 and people wiped for months on them.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...M-Titan-Fight? good old times ^^

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=] Yep. HM is story mode, so people HAD to beat it.. Dat heart..

Actually as long as I play this game, I have never seen anyone being harassed for low dps. I only see people claiming they were harassed with no proof. If someone told you that you need to improve your rotation and grow some deeps - this I not harassment.
This game NEEDS parsers. Players need the tool to improve their gameplay even if they don't do savage.
This is a teamplay game and If you don't try your best or think it's fine, someone else will carry you - it doesn't look like a team player to me.
You don't blame guns for killing people, don't blame parsers for people being rude jerks in general.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Actually as long as I play this game, I have never seen anyone being harassed for low dps. I only see people claiming they were harassed with no proof. If someone told you that you need to improve your rotation and grow some deeps - this I not harassment.

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Problem, people do say it is harassment. And same here, yet to see proof.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

This game NEEDS parsers. Players need the tool to improve their gameplay even if they don't do savage.

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I am an advocate of parsers, but before that, the game needs a better way of teaching players how to actually play their jobs before they hit 70. Actually, they need a Hall of Novice at 50 and 60, if I'm being honest. Job-specific, at that. It does a player no good to do a job quest, most of which don't require a large portion of the abilities you've learned to date, and pick up a skill that some ignore entirely. I would be happy if certain story fights like Shinryu was locked until a player completed their level 70 job quest, as some classes would be complete once they get that last quest out of the way.

@KaivaC
I agree with that and I'm gonna quote myself from different parser thread

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I REALLY hope that people start improving BEFORE they go to Ex\Savage.
I wish game would help those who learn about their class throughout lvling to 70, so when people suddenly face trials like Shinryu normal after faceroll content, they wouldn't cry for nerf.
Personal parser wont help in that case, cuz you can't compare yourself to others.
I hope SE will do something with it soon, hope that we get a *system* that reward you for doing more, so people would finally think - Hm, this guy does way more than I do playing the same class, if I do more I get additional tomestones\items\etc, but how do I do more?*

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Game should motivate players to be better, parser seem to be a faster way, you will just have to face reality and search for ways to improve or cry how others *harassing you when you have fun in your own way* even if you're complete burden to your group.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

I don't think that's her/his point. This mini game would be for the casual peeps that have no idea how to play their roles lol. Give people who probably have no intention of stepping into O4S a way to gauge their performance, but make it kinda fun. This whole thread seems to be talking about casuals in DF coasting by with no idea where their performance should sit, this idea seems like something someone might take a crack at for the lols and actually learn something in the process. Not saying it couldn't use some work, but the spirit of it isn't bad.

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I agree with you that a mini game or challenge mode, would be a good idea and especially casual people would improve using the mode. But that wasn't my point, because i believe you cant judge the performance in an specific fight with another fight or a training arena. You can be good at the dummy or a training arena with a few aoes and train your rotation or how to keep uptime, but you will get better at keeping uptime the fastest, if you do the content itself, since the mechanics/downtime there won't be the same as in the minigame. Anyway, thats besides the main point :D

Think about racing tracks. An gold medal at track A doesn't mean you get a gold medal at track B and therefore you can't judge 100% your performance in content B with the numbers of content A. You can probably assume after spending hours in the minigame/training arena, that you'll perform better during the other content aswell, but you cant be sure and you don't know how good you actually are. Only an official parser for every content could deliver that.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I find it rather telling how you equate actually knowing how to play your job properly with being less fun. Making dungeons not a complete joke doesn't somehow make them impossible, unless you have no idea what you're doing. In which case, how about some personal accountability? The Vault, Aurum Vale, Weeping City and Final Steps of Faith are all examples of reasonable difficulty, but I suppose anything beyond Xelphatol, where you don't even need a tank stance since nothing remotely scratches you, is just too much. The whole reason higher end content has a low percentage is due to the lack of a difficulty curve. It goes from braindead easy to moderately hard to decimating you. Such a sudden spike makes people quit far quicker than if dungeons actually required some healing outside mass pulls.

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I saw that,and though it was a great idea,all dungeon should be harder and harder the closer tyou get to 70,SE is creating those "brainless" 70 people by giving them brainless activity to do.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I am an advocate of parsers, but before that, the game needs a better way of teaching players how to actually play their jobs before they hit 70. Actually, they need a Hall of Novice at 50 and 60, if I'm being honest. Job-specific, at that. It does a player no good to do a job quest, most of which don't require a large portion of the abilities you've learned to date, and pick up a skill that some ignore entirely. I would be happy if certain story fights like Shinryu was locked until a player completed their level 70 job quest, as some classes would be complete once they get that last quest out of the way.

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I would be fine, if the game teaches general stuff and adds an class specific mentor chat to the game. But i don't want an 100% bulletproof developer class guide, because i really enjoy the community discussions about classes and i fear that people would get more lazy and don't think about the game as much as they do now, if the developers would interfere like this. I already here the argument "but the developer said..." in my ears xD

The issue with that argument or mindset is that, developers can make mistakes aswell, despite their knowledge about the game being very good. After all they created the game. But sometimes the community finds better rotations or solutions and this was the case with the ninja and then they nerfed the class after stormblood. If there would have been an developer guide, than i assume people would never have found a better rotation or many people would not believe those theocrafters, because the developers found another rotation and they have to know always best. After all they are the developers of the game, right?

Additionally i don't think an official guide would solve the problem completely anyway, because if people dont want to get better at something, than a guide wont help them, since they'll just ignore it.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Problem, people do say it is harassment. And same here, yet to see proof.

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I've seen people getting criticism or insulted for their dps, including some friends. But imo op is right that healers and tanks get more toxic response and at the end of the day the fear of a few people using an feature for sth bad, should never prevent an developer to add it, if most people use it for something worthwhile/good. Might aswell delete the aggro list or chat function or not add the replay feature, if you want to protect everyone. Personally, humans and never a feature can be the problem and you can deal with those few easily by kicking or banning them, if they really harasse people with the information of a feature. Be it aggro list, parser or sth else.

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

I .

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There is a difference insulting people and give them criticism. First of all, critisicm is good. If someone think I can play better,so be it, I will listen and try get better. Too many people often are too defensive towards others, so if I tell a guy how to improve, he will bash me, call me tryhard/elitist etc. I'm not saying it happens all the time, but it happens often vs people who take the actual advice. You can approach them as the nicest person in the world and you still get insults back. I often think people think it's embarrassing being called out in public and they go in a defence mode. That doesn't give them the right to insult the person who tries to help.

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

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Theory-crafting is fun and it does wonders with optimization. I dare chance to say that a huge portion of us forum users have seen and used some of the things that have been produced from theory-crafting. But the game does need do more to get players actually play their jobs. I'm not even asking for optimized play, just do something to teach players that being a 100% hardcast RDM outside of a premade is a no-no. I wouldn't mind seeing some mini-bosses showing up during a course of a run instead of the typical hard-hitting bosses, and not in their own boss arena, either.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i am pretty sure Krotoan was talking about Titan hm. yes, the three hm primals were endgame back in 2.0 and people wiped for months on them.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...M-Titan-Fight? good old times ^^

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^^^ This

Titan HM was an absolute slugfest when it was current and required for the Relic step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvfHESJw5s was a great example of what it was like even with people who knew the encounter.

It's actually an interesting comparison to PF pugs we see today since it was formed in a similar manner (Basically out of a collection of linkshells of people who wanted to either help with or clear Titan).

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

Its true that without a 3rd party thingy ,DD are just in a paradise,they can do shit,no one can really see it,and if you do,they will report you for having a parse.

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How many times does it need to be explained you can see it without a parse....
You do not need a parse in 4 man to see if a dps is spamming the 1 key or sitting there on idle 20-80% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

How many times does it need to be explained you can see it without a parse....
You do not need a parse in 4 man to see if a dps is spamming the 1 key or sitting there on idle 20-80% of the time.

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Or not using AoE in an Expert Roulette dungeon during big pulls....

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

^^^ This

Titan HM was an absolute slugfest when it was current and required for the Relic step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvfHESJw5s was a great example of what it was like even with people who knew the encounter.

It's actually an interesting comparison to PF pugs we see today since it was formed in a similar manner (Basically out of a collection of linkshells of people who wanted to either help with or clear Titan).

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Worth noting, that until the tail end of that content, the netcode for dodging AoEs was FAR LESS forgiving. You basically had to be near a full second of standing outside of the AoE to register that you dodged it, as the server was either having issues or took that long to ping back your new location.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Or not using AoE in an Expert Roulette dungeon during big pulls....

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That one is easy to see. I wonder why one SAM has all of their TP and the other SAM is full out of TP?

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Or not using AoE in an Expert Roulette dungeon during big pulls....

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or not having your important lv 70 ability to AoE said packs with. But ya that is what I was trying to imply hitting the 1 key since most jobs have more then one thing to do for aoe that is noticeable, like blm putting thunder and using fire II, flare, and foul.