The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by Dorander

If the healer only wants to heal, then that's what they'll get. The dps should stand in the red telegraphs. If they don't want to help make the dps jobs easier, we shouldn't do the same for them.

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You're DPS...you don't have a job. Tanks and healers do the DPS so you don't have to...that's how this game works now.

Your job as a healer is to keep people alive. Dpsing is completely optional. It's a bonus if you ask me.

I'm a healer as well as smn and I dps all the time. It doesn't bother me in the slightest if the healer doesn't dps as long as we are all alive all the time.

This game is just full of deluded kids.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

And you expect tanks/dps to move out of the red. Though, we really don't have to if you only want to heal.

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Some of you don't. Ever see a black mage refuse to remove themselves from their ley lines, no matter the consequence? All for those 'mad deeps yo'

Good healers can not only keep the tank alive during mass pulls, they can find windows to dps as well.

Kind of sad that there are healers that never dps that insist on HEAL ONRY and can't even full-time heal a mass pull.

Good players are players that stick to their job (and do it good).

I support your so called "Lazy Healers" I know some ppl that just don't like to dps or are not confident to dps while healing, back to 2.X I was a SCH and it took me almost a month to get the confidence to dps while healing because I had an idiot on my group telling me that I need to solo heal every single stuff and I was such a Bad healer to make him heal (I was a WHM and he was a SCH, after he left I became the SCH)...
SO... I do support the just healer ppl that don't want to dps, it's hard to do this specially if, just like me, you had a bad time healing in the past because of some stupid ppl saying shit to them.

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Originally Posted by Mature

Your job as a healer is to keep people alive. Dpsing is completely optional. It's a bonus if you ask me.

I'm a healer as well as smn and I dps all the time. It doesn't bother me in the slightest if the healer doesn't dps as long as we are all alive all the time.

This game is just full of deluded kids.

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Just like it's completely optional that I stay out of the red. It's also completely optional that I use mudras when I'm playing as a ninja. As a tank, it's completely optional that I use my threat generating abilities and defensive cooldowns, ect. This game is just full of deluded healers that want to stand around and pick their nose.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

You're DPS...you don't have a job. Tanks and healers do the DPS so you don't have to...that's how this game works now.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Some of you don't. Ever see a black mage refuse to remove themselves from their ley lines, no matter the consequence? All for those 'mad deeps yo'

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Well, you know we Ninjas have to also manage others threat and TP, while keeping up our own dots, and debuffs. Though with most of these healers argument, that's completely optional.. so why should I bother anymore? I think I'll just stick to using my level 1 ability over and over and over again. I just want to dps. I didn't sign up for that other stuff.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Well, you know we Ninjas have to also manage others threat and TP, while keeping up our own dots, and debuffs. Though with most of these healers argument, that's completely optional.. so why should I bother anymore? I think I'll just stick to using my level 1 ability over and over and over again. I just want to dps. I didn't sign up for that other stuff.

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Come on man don't compare DPS to Healers as a Matter of dps, if DPS do their job properly and healers just heal it will go as smooth as if TANK and HEALER loads tons of |DPS and DPS do an OK to POOR job on their role... why do DPS don't wanna Parse on FFXIV? Because they don't have the capacity to do their job properly, call everybody that wants it an elistist and in the end blame Tank/Healer because they are not doing enough dps...

Healers don't have to do DPS its optional they have the choice if they don't DPS im fine with it and i won't call them lazy or bad at their job because they are doing their job HEALING and keeping people up so they are doing it well. A bad healer is someone who can't keep people up and doesn't heal then causes wipes. When i have healers DPS in a dungeon the run doesn't even feel any quicker than it was before last time i checked it was only 2mins faster much wow so fast.

If you have good DPS with you, healer DPS shouldn't even be required. Some people just don't feel comfortable DPSing and that doesn't make them bad at the game they just prefer keeping within their role which is healing. Of course people will give the argument "but what about their attacking skills hmmm their there so use them!!" Well how else will do they do story content or content which they have to do solo? Then people will give the argument "but they give you more attacking skills!!!" Well yes because can you imagine trying to fight things in Heavensward with just Stone I, Stone 2, Aero I, Aero II and Fluid Aura? It would take forever when i was killing mobs for quests it took quite a while because the amount of damage those skills did was small so they give more powerful attacking spells to speed up the process. I'm sorry but the arguments people give for saying why healers should dps are lackluster at best and they full well know it.

Most people picked HEALER to HEAL, If they wanted to do DPS they would pick DPS. Simple as end of discussion. If you DPS great your doing something optional for the group which isn't required but you feel you want to add more nothing wrong with that the same way as only healing and not dpsing which is ok as well.

Ill just say this as this is getting a little big for my liking, I'll change my stance on the matter and just make sure the healer has no choice but to heal the entire time. However we tanks and dps know all to well that when your doing a dungeon to your best and for the 50th time you can feel when it slows down and when it speeds up thanks to the healers added dps or lack of. With that said though I refuse to commend any healer who would rather dance and run around me like they are telling us to hurry up.

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Few posts about WoW.

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What I remember from my healing days in WoW, the damage was much more consistent instead of "big hit, 20 seconds of nothing, big hit" and auto-attacks actually did some damage. I think some attacks also had a short cooldown and the bosses used them semi-randomly and more often -- mainly cleaves and such.

Hi Hulv.

Can't complain about how slow a dungeon is going if you aren't willing to help DPS.

Tanks do DPS, so why can't healers?

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

1) Yes, he SHOULD use Trick Attack.
2) Mantra is useful, but optional.
3) Part of his role is to support the group.
4) Most of their abilities are focused around the cards.

So, yeah, from a WHM perspective, should I heal? Of course. Should I dps? It's optional. In that case, why does no one ever ask why a NIN isn't using Mantra? Hmmm!

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Actually, AST has 4 abilities revolving around cards (and 2 buffs which interact with the cards but also interact with hots). In comparison, they have 5 damage moves of their own + Aero and CS from WHM. Even the healer with the least damage potential has more tools for dps than for the unique mechanic of the job. The reason AST should be using cards is not because "most of their abilities are focused around the cards". It's because it helps the group! Any healer who is capable but not willing to dps is no better than an AST who doesn't use cards. Call it what you wish.

I see you also made a special case of BRD, saying that his role includes more things than what the big DPS icon indicates. Is it because of the job quests? Or is it because those abilities exist and are beneficial? Well, either logic applies to WHM doing dps. Not only do we fix Sylphie's attitude but E-Sumi-Yan also repeats the lesson when wrapping up the CNJ quests, as shown by the sceenshots ITT. Expecting one job to do more than their role in a dungeon but giving a free pass to another is a bit unfair, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Well, you know we Ninjas have to also manage others threat and TP, while keeping up our own dots, and debuffs. Though with most of these healers argument, that's completely optional.. so why should I bother anymore? I think I'll just stick to using my level 1 ability over and over and over again. I just want to dps. I didn't sign up for that other stuff.

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Most NIN I have run with rarely bother with managing others threat and TP, usually because its completely unneccesary. We are talking about DF Expert roulette. Hell, you rarely have fights go long enough for people to run out of TP.

Almost all the time dps just need to dps. Its incredibly rare I see dps bother with their utility abilities. Even SMN rarely bother with Virus and its not even on the GCD.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

If your a summoner or blackmage and see the tank dropping and the healer struggling, then sure, why not? I do it all the time, may not be the MOST effective, but a little heals will assist in keeping that tank up.

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That 300 heal physick isn't saving anybody.

If it isn't raiding, I don't necessarily care if the healer isn't DPSing. If DPS checks aren't being met in expert dungeons, there's more problems than just the healer not tossing some DoT's. Otherwise, who cares? The dungeon takes a couple minutes longer than what you want, boohoo.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

That 300 heal physick isn't saving anybody.

If it isn't raiding, I don't necessarily care if the healer isn't DPSing. If DPS checks aren't being met in expert dungeons, there's more problems than just the healer not tossing some DoT's. Otherwise, who cares? The dungeon takes a couple minutes longer than what you want, boohoo.

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This is my thought. In a DF roulette it is rarely worth the bother of making an issue out of it.

People seem to still be forgetting the main point in Healer DPS. It's in their down time. Where it's either.... They sit down, jump around, emote, run off to get the treasure chest which could be opened later, laugh at the people still actually contributing, or they actually contribute themselves and DPS until a heal is needed. NEVER DPS while heals are needed, but do DPS when they aren't. That is the main point of it, and people keep forgetting that as pages move on.

A healer not DPSing in their down time is a Tank standing perfectly still, back to mobs while he has hate, a Brd either only DPSing while mages are out of MP, other DDs are out of TP or not DPSing at all and only playing songs as they only want to play the 'bard' side of it, not the archer. Also the same as other DDs not using any of their support abilities or self heals, standing in AoEs as they could hinder the deeps being put out, or rather only using Ice spells because they don't want to be a Fire Mage. It's all the same, they are still doing their roles to an extent, but they aren't doing a good job at it. A healer is there to keep the party alive, so heal when people are weak, and help kill things faster, as that helps keep people alive too.

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Originally Posted by Remus

Some people just don't feel comfortable DPSing and that doesn't make them bad at the game they just prefer keeping within their role which is healing.
Most people picked HEALER to HEAL, If they wanted to do DPS they would pick DPS.

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I just don't feel comfortable using my more complicated and stressful 3.0 BLM rotation,
but it doesn't make me bad that I stick to just throwing Fire I at monsters instead of using the full potential of the class with Enochian and Fire IV :rolleyes:
I just prefer the easy rotation, ok? It doesn't make me bad!
I picked BLM because the rotation was easy, if I wanted to put in more effort I would have picked a melee class.

...see the problem with this logic? :)
By no means do I want to force anyone to play something they are not comfortable with. It's a game, after all. But the ones who defend healers not doing anything but throwing the occasional Cure at the tank, are usually the same people who won't shut up about how much other roles suck for NOT doing things that are completely optional too, like moving out of AoEs, using defensive cooldowns, combos or supportive abilities. Look no further than last page to find those hypocrites. Or the OP, for that matter:
He complains about the SMN not avoiding the gaze attack, he complains about both DPS' dmg (at the 40 minute mark! even though it's "fine" as long as the dmg is enough to finish the dungeon in 90 minutes, if we are going by the logic that everything is fine as long as things still work out in the end, which is an argument used time and again to defend that healers do not have to dps as long as the dungeon can be cleared without them doing it), basically because both DPS players didn't do their fullest to make the run fast and unproblematic.
Yet he himself refuses to bring all his class has to offer to the table.
Why should healers get a free pass?
If you want to slack off in non-endgame content, that's fine. I won't like you for doing it, you won't get any commendations and if you ALSO fail at healing additionally (which the OP did as well), I might even speak out about it, but yes, you are free to do so.
But please stop deluding yourself (not you, Remus, just people with this mindset in general) and making excuses for why it is okay for you to be lazy and not okay for others.
Because it isn't.

In the end its not going to change anything. If a healer doesn't want to dps, its not like you can make them dps. Your options are bailing from the group, Vote Dismissing the healer and waiting around for a replacement or just rolling with it. Is it really worth getting upset about?

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

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I have met those people; who scream "CLERIC STANCE MORE DPS"... Within seconds of CS they hit 5% HP & my arse is eating the seat cover. *I ALONE* know when I'm comfortable to DPS. If I toss in some non-CS DOTs for minor damage & debuffs why is it a problem? It's more DPS than zero, you get the debuff benefits & I'm still able to drag you from the brink of death when you assume that you're immune to damage.

I don't know if people realise SCH no longer has the "oh sh*t" skill that was Lustrate. In my opinion, it's not even that great in heal mode, so out of it it's useless. If there's possibility of mass damage then let me heal. If I know it's safe to DPS in CS then get ready for full DPS.

Also, a healer completely running out of MP is a sign that your team is taking unnecessary damage (unless it's high level content) or that the healer isn't thinking long term. This doesn't apply as much in 2+ healer content.

i feel sorry for you OP, it seem like people did not take the time to read what you said and just started flaming.

After I saw "already a 40min run" yeah logic kicked in
This is not about if healers should DPS because he stated he does and just not in that party because people can\\\\'t seem to stop getting hit
The Pearson should be calling out the other DPS but even then you encourage people not blast them.

Off topic

Healer DPS
Should they yes if they can ( not every one can)

In end game with you friend I would say people would be more free to DPS.

As a tank I have seen all this happen before, people need to start looking at thing from a 3 point of view not there own.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

I'm only saying this because it is fact. Roughly 95% of ALL content in this game does not require a healer to do any dps

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95% of this game's content doesn't even require a second DPS. That still doesn't mean it's ok for people to eat crap and not contribute to the group when they could be doing so. Your job is not "tank", or "healer", or "dps", it's to help your group members to the best of your abilities.

Healers are not expected to dps, thats just plain nonsense. If they help great, but otherwise if i tank or dps i do not make a fuss about it.
Besides it sounded like since dps may not of been avoiding stuff that you may of had your hands full healing.
You said they were in full 210 gear? Probably one of those players that "learned" how to dps from doing hunts or fates..... lol

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Originally Posted by Dagr81

i feel sorry for you OP, it seem like people did not take the time to read what you said and just started flaming.

After I saw "already a 40min run" yeah logic kicked in
This is not about if healers should DPS because he stated he does and just not in that party because people can\\\\'t seem to stop getting hit
The Pearson should be calling out the other DPS but even then you encourage people not blast them.

Off topic

Healer DPS
Should they yes if they can ( not every one can)

In end game with you friend I would say people would be more free to DPS.

As a tank I have seen all this happen before, people need to start looking at thing from a 3 point of view not there own.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

This SMN said I wasn't even doing my job, but my job is to heal! If I wanted to dps i'll switch to a dps class.

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Sorry, but this thread is exactly on topic. Now, the Smn was in the wrong too, but maybe he was slacking because the OP was also slacking, thought about it that way? We only have one side of the story there.

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Originally Posted by Reisui

As a main healer this is hurting. I always thought I contributed by DPSing. I even take out adds alone during some boss fights. I received a bunch of everything, heal skils, support skills and DPS skills. I use them to the max, like it was intended.

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You ARE contributing a lot by DPSing and it is greatly appreciated by everyone in your group^^. The statement that you're quoting is extremely misinformed and just blatantly false.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Probably one of those players that "learned" how to dps from doing hunts or fates..... lol

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Same place the HEAL ONLY healers learned to heal?

Dodging AoEs is just as optional as dpsing as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

I don't know if people realise SCH no longer has the "oh sh*t" skill that was Lustrate. In my opinion, it's not even that great in heal mode, so out of it it's useless.

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While what you said is true about it being useless in cleric stance. I personally feel lustrate has gotten better with the ability to crit. I've been healing far more per lustrate in 3.x content than I ever did in ARR.

This topic again...

Okay, so the fact of the matter is this: When you queue into an instance there are four/eight members on a team with the SAME objectives. They are listed in your duty list: clear X area, defeat X thing, etc. We have roles to give us priorities to help make the run efficient. However, they are just that: PRIORITIES. As soon as our role prevents us from meeting the actual objective quickly, those roles are not making the run efficient, no longer working as intended.

As a healer, the priority for healers is this:
1. Make sure everyone is not dead (a tank or DPS can do their job just as effectively at 1% as 100%, provided it's not 0%)
2. Cleanse debuffs
3. DPS towards the actual instance objectives until (1) or (2) is threatened

/thread

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

I can't stand healers who just stand there when the party is at full health and do nothing.

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Exactly why I find the 'I'm a healer' mentality absurd.

This is my 2cents

How are you healers soloing? You gotta stance dance solo, you gotta stance dance during a few trials.

How is it a big deal to do it in party content?? Squishy tank aside, it isn't that hard. If your sitting at near full mp, group is doing well what are you doing??

I find it completely boring as a healer to stand there and look pretty cuz I'm not needing to heal.

I also find it wasteful and idiotic.

I have been leveling my AST and WHM, and I've always found time to throw in Combust I & II/ Aero I & II. Just to tick some health away while I'm healing. If I notice that the party is doing so well that I am going to have down time, I hit Cleric Stance and start tossing Malefic or Stones. I don't prioritize DPS over my healing, but I do it whenever I feel I have a comfortable window to play with. However, there are times when that's just not going to happen.

I always DPS during downtime as a healer. I would be so bored if I didn't.

I won't call a healer out on not DPSing when I'm playing as another job, but it does annoy me. Especially when they are jumping around for no reason, or just standing there for a good 10+ seconds. Don't understand how that is "fun." I like being engaged in the content I'm doing, even if it's a dungeon I've run multiple times.

Edit: Just wanted to add that it also feels great when you get a good group and are blazing through the content.

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

I have been leveling my AST and WHM, and I've always found time to throw in Combust I & II/ Aero I & II. Just to tick some health away while I'm healing. If I notice that the party is doing so well that I am going to have down time, I hit Cleric Stance and start tossing Malefic or Stones. I don't prioritize DPS over my healing, but I do it whenever I feel I have a comfortable window to play with. However, there are times when that's just not going to happen.

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That's my stance as well, I hate healers who dps first, I'm not fond of seeing my hp drop as a tank to below 50%. In all honesty it scares the crap out of me. And it makes me feel I'm a bad take for not mitigating enough dig.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

That's my stance as well, I hate healers who dps first, I'm not fond of seeing my hp drop as a tank to below 50%. In all honesty it scares the crap out of me. And it makes me feel I'm a bad take for not mitigating enough dig.

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send them Healing Odin trials....EXCELLENT place to learn to focus observe and pay attention LOL

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class. If I keep everyone alive then I am doing my job.

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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While I do agree with you, healers are meant for healing. But if I'm in a group that does great, meaning tank doesn't take derp hits, using his CDs, DPS can do dps and they don't also take derp hits and healer is just standing there and... waiting someone to get hit.
http://i.imgur.com/lfL0UvH.gif
Just throw dots. It isn't hard.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

That's my stance as well, I hate healers who dps first, I'm not fond of seeing my hp drop as a tank to below 50%. In all honesty it scares the crap out of me. And it makes me feel I'm a bad take for not mitigating enough dig.

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I've experienced some healers where the HP for the tank gets closer to 20 percent and playing as a dps one is lucky when you can actually catch a heal from some of them. That type of healer just doesn't quite get their role is healing first and dps'ing second.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I've experienced some healers where the HP for the tank gets closer to 20 percent and playing as a dps one is lucky when you can actually catch a heal from some of them. That type of healer just doesn't quite get their role is healing first and dps'ing second.

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eh, or it's being efficient. One of the two.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

eh, or it's being efficient. One of the two.

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Not when people die, sorry, no it's not efficient. Heal first, keep the party safe (and that doesn't mean keeping them on the brink of death), then worry about dps'ing. Pretty simple actually.

i think you all are just want to feel better by pointing to the healer who doesn't dps and say: "i am better than you! i am better than average!" >.</

i think that's the real reason these kind of topics pop up every once a week and repeat over and over and over again over 37 pages now...