Lets nerf WAR :D

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Originally Posted by rawker

Just coming here to say that Xeno soloed Titan Ex. I'll leave it all to you now to judge.
https://youtu.be/7vs7AVPLjBY

I'll just be here waiting for a DRK or PLD to solo Titan Ex.

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How do you think that this is relevant? Tanks, or any job, aren't balanced around soloing Titan EX (or anything, for that matter).

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

How do you think that this is relevant? Tanks, or any job, aren't balanced around soloing Titan EX (or anything, for that matter).

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Originally Posted by rawker

I'll leave it all to you now to judge.

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I think you missed that part of my post.

Not everyone can play warrior so good like Xenosys Vex and don't forget iLVL.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I think you missed that part of my post.

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What's there to judge? Why post it in this thread?

Unless you think it's indicative of tank imbalance (particularly in WAR's favor), it's not really relevant to this discussion.

I've seen a pld get his first a3s clear and his was at 740 dps. People just don't know how to play pld.

Why are you so vehement/sensitive that i brought this up?

When I said I leave it all to you to judge, it's very obvious that it is an open-ended declaration. Now if you follow my responses to the some of the replies my original post have received, I even defended it. If that's how you interpret it, then what you think is what is irrelevant to the discussion, not mine.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Why are you so vehement/sensitive that i brought this up?

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LOL what? I'm just questioning your rationale for bringing up irrelevancies, but, sure, I'm the sensitive one.

By the way, I'm saying that it's objectively irrelevant, because jobs aren't balanced around how well they solo content; this isn't my subjective interpretation.

If I am, however, objectively wrong on this matter, then, please, illustrate how.

This thread is sad to read though.

I have played all 3 tanks in HW a lot.

The "nerf warriors" cries pretty much only came out after the introduction of Alex savage.

Do Paladins not remember how we can use cover+HG to completely eliminate arguably the most dangerous phase in rav ex? To a degree where it trivialize the fight. Have we already forgotten how completely broken and overpowered sheltron is at eating physical bursts such as blinding blade?

DRKs are much loved in Alex: to a degree where it's almost as if the raid is designed for them. Dark mind allows DRKs to survive through all the dangerous bursts (A1S plasma, A3S tethers), while they do not have the protection of a shield in A2S, Blood Price allows a DRK to contribute a significant amount of AoE damage and is the king of AoE threat.

So at the end of the day, warriors really only have 3 things going for them:
i) Slightly higher dps than a DRK, and PLD - around 10% more?
ii) Incredible burst damage via Berserk (most notable in HP transfer on A3S)
iii) The ability to apply slashing debuff.

As time progresses, the dps checks in A3S become more and more lenient (through obtaining gear upgrades). The "niche" of the warrior will start to diminish. Some day in the future, with Echo and higher ilvl, I would much rather bring a paladin to A3S for example, due to their ability to spam shield bash on adds (with the longest stun in game to boot), and ability to tempered will/leap the pushback (holmgang works but has tight timings) - that is because dps will no longer be the barrier, but rather mechanics wise, other tanks will be a safer choice than a warrior.

A good warrior will need to learn when to pool stacks for inner beast, how to stance dance and play greedy. Alas, they still have some of the weakest cooldowns: foresight being only a mere ~7% reduction in physical damage (worse than awareness imo), bloodbath is "nice" esp coupled with berserk/convalescence, but is still on the weaker end of the spectrum.

If things are to be changed, then it will have to be something slightly more fundamental to HW: that is i) AF2 forbidding effective class swapping ii) the specialization of tanks where a DRK reign over magical bursts and PLD will always be trivialize physical bursts.

Unless you are gunning for a server first kill, bring the player, not the class. Tank balance is working as intended.

KinSlayer009: this is because many pld is wearing vita only accesories, to cry like baby because the dps is not high, and also maybe one Very Good pld is not equal to all the pld also

Ragnvard : this tread is sad to read because it bring only War haters, i don't consider everybody here is at A4S and are stuck because some tank here is playing the pld, maybe a very few people here is in this case... we have a pld in fc statics and we will end the raid with, even if it take more times.

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Originally Posted by Ragnvard

DRKs are much loved in Alex: to a degree where it's almost as if the raid is designed for them. while they do not have the protection of a shield in A2S, Blood Price allows a DRK to contribute a significant amount of AoE damage and is the king of AoE threat.

So at the end of the day, warriors really only have 3 things going for them:
i) Slightly higher dps than a DRK, and PLD - around 10% more?
ii) Incredible burst damage via Berserk (most notable in HP transfer on A3S)
iii) The ability to apply slashing debuff.

As time progresses, the dps checks in A3S become more and more lenient (through obtaining gear upgrades). The "niche" of the warrior will start to diminish. Some day in the future, with Echo and higher ilvl, I would much rather bring a paladin to A3S for example, due to their ability to spam shield bash on adds (with the longest stun in game to boot), and ability to tempered will/leap the pushback (holmgang works but has tight timings) - that is because dps will no longer be the barrier, but rather mechanics wise, other tanks will be a safer choice than a warrior.

A good warrior will need to learn when to pool stacks for inner beast, how to stance dance and play greedy. Alas, they still have some of the weakest cooldowns: foresight being only a mere ~7% reduction in physical damage (worse than awareness imo), bloodbath is "nice" esp coupled with berserk/convalescence, but is still on the weaker end of the spectrum.

If things are to be changed, then it will have to be something slightly more fundamental to HW: that is i) AF2 forbidding effective class swapping ii) the specialization of tanks where a DRK reign over magical bursts and PLD will always be trivialize physical bursts.

Unless you are gunning for a server first kill, bring the player, not the class. Tank balance is working as intended.

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Drk is actually in need of help too just like PLD. Only reasons their brought. Possible -10% damage reduction. INT down (magic busters onry) and is starting to be viewed as putting out the most damage in the MT spot while in tanking stance, which means jack %$&#^# when you're tanking in your offensive stance. Other than that their there for the LB bar.

Warrior has those 3 things going for them....while being marginally close or surpassing the other two tanks in their designed fields. The only thing WAR doesn't have is a heal / shield ability to protect it's party members, a pet, and combat resurrection.

I hope you're referring to a pick up group. Other wise this entire post of taking a PLD over any other tank currently makes no sense what so ever. You'd take the class that has skills for progression( Preventing F-up and allowing breathing rooms) after a entire group has already progressed and has gotten their gear? If anything as content moves forward Pld will be less favorable. More DPS = less mechanics. If you do not believe me get a full party of level 60's and go do any 2.0 content fight that the group knows and watch as entire phases are trivialized and the bosses face melt.

Uh...War's cool down's are actually on par or really close with PLD's. The only thing "weak" about them are their short duration which is made up for due to their low cool downs. Further more if a war is actually playing war right, some cool downs when paired with others(as some should be) allow for the war to play offensively while reducing healing required on them. The only problem with WAR is that their tanking stance requires a good healer to 100% take advantage of it and not over heal, which is often times nulled out by simply taking a SCH, which yet again means crap if you're tanking in your offensive stance.

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Originally Posted by Ragnvard

Some day in the future, with Echo and higher ilvl, I would much rather bring a paladin to A3S for example, due to their ability to spam shield bash on adds (with the longest stun in game to boot), and ability to tempered will/leap the pushback (holmgang works but has tight timings) - that is because dps will no longer be the barrier, but rather mechanics wise, other tanks will be a safer choice than a warrior.

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WAR will still reduce more total raid damage with Storm's Path while increasing raid damage tremendously with their own DPS & Storm's Eye. Killing slimes will only become easier as you get more gear or echo. Something is seriously wrong if you resort to shield bashing at that point. PLD will not see any love until their enmity is boosted or encounters shift focus towards extreme tank-busters & raid wide AoEs to slow us down.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Drk is actually in need of help too just like PLD.

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You're a funny guy.

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Originally Posted by Disc

You're a funny guy.

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He's not wrong, Dark's have a lot of glaring bugs in their move set that will become apparent when it comes to mitigating physical hits, but we can have that discussion in 3.2

@Ragnvard Im not even going to begin to delve into how incredibly ignorant brining a PLD over WAR for speed runs and farming would be, but the fact that you think that the tank balance is working as intended is clear proof you have no idea what balance is.

On one hand we have a tank which does: tremendous burst damage, contributes meaningful DPS, has invaluable raid utility, and has a strong defensive kit that not only allows them to effectively tank every encounter but allows them to cover their DPS stance with CDs.

On the other hand we have a tank that: Contributes almost nothing to DPS while tanking, has CDs that are borderline useless (Clemency, Divine Veil, Tempered Will), offers no meaningful raid utility, is generally considered a hinderence to raids, and is loaded with clunk.

So we have one tank which is a raid necessity and guarenteed a spot that has arguably no downsides and another tank that really brings nothing to the table.

Yeah bro. That's balanced.

If I absolutely had to pick something, I'd swap the debuffs on Storm's Path and Rage of Halone.

"Tank balance is working as intended" and "PLD will finally work when we're all i270 +20% echo on A3S" are funny things to say in the same post but there we have it.

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Originally Posted by Disc

You're a funny guy.

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...For you.

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Originally Posted by Violette

He's not wrong, Dark's have a lot of glaring bugs in their move set that will become apparent when it comes to mitigating physical hits, but we can have that discussion in 3.2

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You're ignoring the fact that our physical mitigation is more than enough for all content in game, our damage competes with & at times surpasses WAR, we don't need MNK, we excel at magic mitigation, and we have one of only two "damage down" debuffs in game. You have to be delusional to even imply that DRK is anywhere near a bad place.

Please post your war solo Titan Ex clear before you said that.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

The only reason the other classes can't do that is because of the heal difference.Even then Paladin might stil be able to pull it off all be it a lot slower.This video should seem impressive but it really isn't for many reasons.It's unsynced,The person is in full ilvl200-210 gear.Dunno about jewelry but probbaly melded to hell and back which most of us can't afford.On top of that they had the highest lvl of echo available which is just cheap.If they'd done it unsynced withouth the echo i might have a slight bit of rspect for them as a fellow Warrior.

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Lol.......

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Originally Posted by Harz

If I absolutely had to pick something, I'd swap the debuffs on Storm's Path and Rage of Halone.

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Brilliant, actually. If they did this and buffed Halone's potency + maybe a shorter recast on FoF and tweaks to their support utilities, the tanks would be pretty well balanced as far as what they bring to a group.

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Originally Posted by Disc

You're ignoring the fact that our physical mitigation is more than enough for all content in game, our damage competes with & at times surpasses WAR, we don't need MNK, we excel at magic mitigation, and we have one of only two "damage down" debuffs in game. You have to be delusional to even imply that DRK is anywhere near a bad place.

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100% this. It still blows me away how many people haven't figured out how to play this job right, and when they misuse its tools they're considered "bugs".

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

The only reason the other classes can't do that is because of the heal difference.Even then Paladin might stil be able to pull it off all be it a lot slower.This video should seem impressive but it really isn't for many reasons.It's unsynced,The person is in full ilvl200-210 gear.Dunno about jewelry but probbaly melded to hell and back which most of us can't afford.On top of that they had the highest lvl of echo available which is just cheap.If they'd done it unsynced withouth the echo i might have a slight bit of rspect for them as a fellow Warrior.

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LOL, this is the funniest post I've seen in awhile...!!

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Originally Posted by Disc

WAR will still reduce more total raid damage with Storm's Path while increasing raid damage tremendously with their own DPS & Storm's Eye. Killing slimes will only become easier as you get more gear or echo. Something is seriously wrong if you resort to shield bashing at that point. PLD will not see any love until their enmity is boosted or encounters shift focus towards extreme tank-busters & raid wide AoEs to slow us down.

You're a funny guy.

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Right now DRK's dmg debuff is rather a pain to use and can't be kept up 100%. Knowing SE, most likely they will either significantly boost the duration or take off the parry requirement. In fact SE prob didn't want DRK to have both dmg reduction AND -int debuff up at all times since that will be almost far too powerful (since raid damage traditionally speaking is mostly magical).

Ofc, there are also physical nukes, A1S' dread prey is an example. A Pld's RoH debuff reduces that amount, and they can also just cover a person for easy healing.

Yes, slimes will become easier to kill with gear and echo, but player skills is another matter - why do people still wipe in t9 even with full 120 gear? As a paladin you can do something about all the "shitty situations".

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

@Ragnvard Im not even going to begin to delve into how incredibly ignorant brining a PLD over WAR for speed runs and farming would be, but the fact that you think that the tank balance is working as intended is clear proof you have no idea what balance is.

On one hand we have a tank which does: tremendous burst damage, contributes meaningful DPS, has invaluable raid utility, and has a strong defensive kit that not only allows them to effectively tank every encounter but allows them to cover their DPS stance with CDs.

On the other hand we have a tank that: Contributes almost nothing to DPS while tanking, has CDs that are borderline useless (Clemency, Divine Veil, Tempered Will), offers no meaningful raid utility, is generally considered a hinderence to raids, and is loaded with clunk.

So we have one tank which is a raid necessity and guarenteed a spot that has arguably no downsides and another tank that really brings nothing to the table.

Yeah bro. That's balanced.

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Speed runs? I am very familiar with them, just 2 months ago I was farming many ravanas on my pld, 2 healers (with scholar mostly dpsing), 1 tank, 5 dps. I have done it on all 3 tanks and also my scholar. Pld need less healing = more dps from healers. Also, please do not compare a warrior who tanks in full slaying+deliverance with a pld who tanks in shield oath in full fending/half fending. The DPS difference is really less than what people think. Not to mention there is still DRK in the equation who still does very good damage while in grit (and can drop grit for every blood weapon CD). DRKs imo are the undervalued tank in the DPS department.

As for cooldowns?
Foresight (~7% physical) vs Rampart (20% everything)
Bloodbath vs Convalescence
Vengeance vs Sentinel
Thrill for battle vs Bulwark
Holmgang vs Hallowed Ground

Pretty much with the entire ARR kit, pretty much pld has the superior set of cooldowns, maybe with the exception of Thrill for Battle allow the warrior to self heal.
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Equilibrium vs Clemency/Divine Veil
Raw Intuition vs Sheltron

Equilibrium I agree is better. It is not as if Clemency/Veil are useless (Veil is actually a lot stronger than what people give it credits for but take some coordination to use). RI allows a warrior to parry a series of hits (and is often used as a dps CD), but sheltron will allow a pld to pretty much block every single physical burst attack (think flatten/blind blade, etc) - how completely broken is that lol?

Considering that nearly every mob in the game, boss or trash, interrupt casts with autoattack, I'd say that clemency is pretty close to useless, especially since you cant even proc your own veil with it. Seriously do you even know what youre talking about?

Yes, sheltron can block every physical burst attack that doesnt even exist in endgame, horrendously overpowered gg square enix nerf pally. seriously? dark can mitigate every magical damage burst attack, are you going to say thats overpowered too?

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Originally Posted by Ragnvard

sheltron will allow a pld to pretty much block every single physical burst attack (think flatten/blind blade, etc) - how completely broken is that lol?

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Yeah it's pretty overpowered. It'd be like if warriors had a button that reduced damage by 20% every 17-20 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Yeah it's pretty overpowered. It'd be like if warriors had a button that reduced damage by 20% every 17-20 seconds.

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Would also be pretty OP if WAR could some how pop two of them back to back every 60 second or pop one and save the other while building up another one so you can always have one on demand! They also could perhaps heal you for the exact amount of damage you dealt. Oh and if you could some how get them faster due to them being attached to your weapon skills and the lower of GCD due to the natural increase of Skill speed over time.

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Originally Posted by Ragnvard

Right now DRK's dmg debuff is rather a pain to use and can't be kept up 100%. Knowing SE, most likely they will either significantly boost the duration or take off the parry requirement. In fact SE prob didn't want DRK to have both dmg reduction AND -int debuff up at all times since that will be almost far too powerful (since raid damage traditionally speaking is mostly magical).

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So pretty much, here, you said some crap about how you can't be bothered to manage a mechanic half the other jobs in the game have to deal with (a proc) even when you have a cooldown for which 90% of the use in a raid scenario is to trigger said proc, complained that it doesn't have 100% uptime, and then went on to state, most likely, the exact reason why it does not have said 100% uptime.

Yes, the whole REASON Reprisal is only 66% uptime is because they already have Delirium. If you're manipulating procs with Dark Dance DRK has an average of 16.6% magic mitigation and 6.6% physical mitigation to bring to the party at all times. The debuff is also off the GCD and not tied to a combo. This ties with Storm's Path in my book. Trust me, if you're playing the job right, you can keep Reprisal on CD. Dunno what you're smoking.

If anything, Reprisal+Delirium is actually more useful in the majority of raid scenarios that I can come up with off the top of my head. The extra 5 to 6.6% magic mitigation is more useful than the added physical mitigation uptime that Path provides because inarguably the vast majority of heavy raid-wide/raid-targeted damage in this game, so far, has been demonstrably magical.

T5 - Fireball/Conflag/Aetheric Profusion
T6 - Only one I'm not sure of really. Rotten Stench?
T7 - Circle of Flames
T8 - Defensive Reaction
T9 - Megaflare/Lunar Dynamo/Supernova/Fire-Ice/Thermionic Beam
T10 - Literally almost every mechanic except for the Charge and Critical Rip
T11 - Nerve Cloud
T12 - Flames of Rebirth
T13 - Gigaflare/Megaflare/Flare Star/Twisters
A1S - Gunnery Pod
A3S - Splashes/Sluice
A4S - Like, almost everything.

A2S is literally the first fight since T4/T6 where the majority of damage has been physical and even here, there isn't much raid wide damage happening regardless. The current content doesn't favor DRK, DRK favors content in the game in general, unless you're still stuck on Titan Ex I guess.

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Originally Posted by Ragnvard

Ofc, there are also physical nukes, A1S' dread prey is an example. A Pld's RoH debuff reduces that amount, and they can also just cover a person for easy healing.

Yes, slimes will become easier to kill with gear and echo, but player skills is another matter - why do people still wipe in t9 even with full 120 gear? As a paladin you can do something about all the "shitty situations".

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Most good players don't expose themselves to those "shitty situations" and prefer to play their jobs right and play with people that do the same. Also you're batshite insane if you think echo is ever coming to anything with "Savage" on the end of it. They might remove the loot lockout and progression lockout but echo/nerfs/solo-queueing is almost assuredly never coming to Savage anything. You still can't solo-queue into SCOB savage unless you're unsynced. LOL @ that.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Would also be pretty OP if WAR could some how pop two of them back to back every 60 second or pop one and save the other and if they healed you for the exact amount of damage you dealt. Oh and if you could some how get them faster due to them being attached to your weapon skills and the lower of GCD due to the natural increase of Skill speed over time.

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And just image if the skill wasn't affected by the dmg reduction of the stance it requires.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

And just image if the skill wasn't affected by the dmg reduction of the stance it requires.

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I know right! What would such a skill be name!?

@Syzygian
Exactly: my point was that why are people saying how warrior is OPed with storm's path when DRK can potentially have both -int and -dmg up at the same time? (esp one that knows how to save Reprisal procs for the busts - but that is also the pt, what if RNG hates you and you just don't parry before a bust?).

Much of my argument is about "each tank have something really strong about them in their specialty". Warrior does not need a nerf, at least not without readjusting the other tank's strengths in their respective domain.

On innerbeast:
Yes, it is strong. Warriors have always had it. It consumes our Wrath stacks (lose parry chance), and as silly as it sound, it compete with Fell Cleave (and also unchained) which is arguably the premise of why people are complaining about warriors: warriors doing a lot of damage while tanking in deliverance. Sure, we can go into defiance before a bust and hit IB, but dps loss is dps loss - note all other classes can still use their full arsenal of cooldowns not being in tank stance.

As pointed out earlier, plds have a stronger set of active cooldown and the passive RNG protect of their shield. Also due to healing skills not being affected by the defiance healing buff, the passive damage reduction of a pld is also a better one.

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Originally Posted by Ragnvard

Much of my argument is about "each tank have something really strong about them in their specialty". Warrior does not need a nerf, at least not without readjusting the other tank's strengths in their respective domain.

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If that has been your point I'm very confused as to why you're arguing that DRK is somehow weak & that PLD should not be buffed because they can blow their TP stunning for a party that will never pass enrage timers.

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Originally Posted by Ragnvard

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Ohhh boy... The level of ignorance in your post is reaching critical levels. First off, Ravana speed runs are done with 1 tank, 1 healer, and 6 DPS. Secondly you seem to think that PLD is far ahead of WAR in the mitigation department which is simply not true. You then said that PLD has the superior set of CDs which is again not true. Lets take a look at each defensive kit THE RIGHT WAY

Rampart vs IB: As far as uptime goes they are roughly equal but I will say IB is the winner for the simple fact of accessibility.

Vengence vs Sentinel: If you dont know why Vengence is the superior CD in a prolonged fight by now then you need to stop posting here. But to touch on it briefly, the amount of uptime Vengence provides with its extended duration AND increased DPS for WAR make it superior than a flat 40% mitigation. For example in a five minute fight Vengence would out mitigate Sentinel... By a lot

Raw Intuition vs Bulwark: This depends on the shield equipped and what is being tanked. For multiple massive physical hits then Raw Intuition wins because of reliability. If we are talking about a trash mob then Bulwark might be better. However if you change this to Raw Intuition+Awareness then the amount of uptime RI has minus its one downside makes it the clear cut winner

WAR Convalescence vs PLD Convalescence: Now obviously native spells are superior but really WAR wins here because while it gained Convo from cross class PLD gained.... Uhhh... Mercy Stroke?

Holmgang vs Hallowed Ground: Now obviously Hallowed Ground wins out in the overall mitigation and usability but the uptime of Holmgang allows more more flexible use of WARs other CDs because you can almost guarentee Holmgang will be up for the buster. Just look at A1S as an example. By Holmganging 1st and 3rd i can freely use Vengence for Royal F and will actually increase my overall mitigation.

Clemency vs Equilibrium: Hahahahaha... Yeah Equilibrium wins because Clemecy is too busy eating glue and getting interrupted.

WAR foresight vs PLD forsight: They both suck

WAR Bloodbath vs PLD Bloodbath: WAR actually has a use for bloodbath with their stupid DPS, overpower, IB, and Berskerk... WAR wins by a landslide.

Sheltron vs Thrill of Battle: This is a toss up and depends on how each is being used. ToB is great as a recovery tool after Holmganging or a means to meatshield larger hits when coupled with Convo. Sheltron COULD be amazing if it didnt get taken by an AA half of the time but its MP regen and CD time are great. I say this is a tie.

Storms Path vs RoH: Not even close. Path wins

At the end of the day WAR possess a powerful defensive kit while simultaneously possessing significantly higher DPS than PLD. Hell I didn't even go into the fact that some of WARs CDs also double as offensive tools with stacks or the fact that WARs crazy defensive uptime also allows for them to enter their DPS stance safely more often than PLD without taxing the ever loving shit out of their healers.

When all is said and done PLD only out mitigates WAR by a TINY amount and this only applies to physical heavy fights or fights that have large numbers of trash. If we are talking about magic heavy fights such as A4S then PLD actually mitigates LESS. This isn't even bringing into account that higher DPS = Shorter Fight Time/Pushed Phases = Less Damage Taken. So in those rare case where PLD mitigation does significantly surpass WARs mitigation it does NOT allow for a significant increase in healer DPS, certainly not enough to cover the huge gap between WAR and PLD DPS.

Aside from allllll that, WAR also posesses raid utility with Path, Eye, great tank DPS, and the ability to mitigate all types of damage and not being locked into being a magic or physical specialist.

Bro edit your posts to bypass the character limit; for the love of god.

Edit: God bless.

Exodus: IB uptime is 50% higher than rampart, plus it is a 300 potency attack, heal and a significant TP saver AND can be converted to more damage if mitigation is not needed. The only cost is the WAR has to know the fight to manage stacks, which any capable DRK will also know the fight for cooldown management, and the PLD probably has to know better for things like using shelltron on fluid swing.

IB is by far the best non invincibility 'cooldown' in the game.

As for RI and bulwark, firstly, garunteed mitigation is MUCH better because of the buster meta. Even if a PLD uses a 27% kite the 60% increase gives effectively 16.2% mitigation whilst the 80%+ RI parry increase gives 16% mitigation. Equal for a Large shield, worse for all other types. Not to mention that raw intuition has 33% more duration AND half the cooldown AND generates wrath.

Also, Thrill of battle paired with Convalescence has the ability to turn two not quite mitigation (increasing EHP AND decreasing curing required) cooldowns into one legitimate one with an effective mitigation of 17%

Much like Awareness is well paired with Raw Intuition.

It is sad that some of PLDs skills feel much more at home on WAR.

Yeah I was taking into consideration stance dancing, Fell Cleaving things, and the fact that Rampart can be used to cover PLD in Sword Oath.... I was also only looking at them from a Defensive Kit aka: what can this mitigate point of view. Man... Honestly I was just trying to throw PLD some kind of bone. As a pure CD Rampart is good...but yeah as a whole IB is way better.

But you are 100% correct on everything that you said.

This is all balanced right?

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

Ohhh boy... The level of ignorance in your post is reaching critical levels. First off, Ravana speed runs are done with 1 tank, 1 healer, and 6 DPS.

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Had to reply to this, but actually, Ravana is speed runs can be done with 2 tanks, 4 dps and 2 healers. You just won't be the absolute fastest.

Nothing is wrong with Rampart it is a good CD, also IB is a nice concept, but people often use the stock response of it being part of a larger kit to justify how good it is. The problem is when someone like you goes through the entire kit and notices for every PLD cooldown WAR has an equivalent or better one, that falls apart.

Stance dancing is the right way to consider everything, i was only making a few extra notes so I just put in one sentence about fell cleaves in my last post. The main problem I have is people seem to try to argue the IB FC trade off as a weakness, but it is a strength, it pulls more damage when a cooldown is not necessary, and when a CD is necessary IB is just as strong as it always was. Imagine if PLD could turn shelltron or bulwark into more DPS in A1S, we wouldn't be complaining!

Edit: Also recast timers are massively undervalued. AS1 week 1 being the classic example where PLD, the supposed defence specialist, was the only tank garunteed to run out of cooldowns by tank buster 4. It is also the only one that finds itself needing to weave its invuln skill into its normal CD rotation in order to not run out.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Had to reply to this, but actually, Ravana is speed runs can be done with 2 tanks, 4 dps and 2 healers. You just won't be the absolute fastest.

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Then.... Then.... It wouldn't be a speed run... The point of a speed run is.... Speed.... So brining the max DPS is always optimal....

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

Then.... Then.... It wouldn't be a speed run... The point of a speed run is.... Speed.... So brining the max DPS is always optimal....

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This is true, but I know some people who wanted to see how fast they could beat ravana with 6 wars, an AST and a sch. They kept trying to beat their previous time, technically, those are speed runs.. I'm just... Saiyan.

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

Edit: Also recast timers are massively undervalued. AS1 week 1 being the classic example where PLD, the supposed defence specialist, was the only tank garunteed to run out of cooldowns by tank buster 4. It is also the only one that finds itself needing to weave its invuln skill into its normal CD rotation in order to not run out.

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Iirc enrage happens before fourth buster. I remember only needing to plan for 3.


Nowadays with only 2 busters for most groups, Pal HG means even more. Pal can go Sword Oath entire time easier than War full Deliverance. I'm having to swap into Defiance for 10ish seconds for second buster, while a Pal never would have to go into Shield Oath after opener.

Enrage is immediately after. If you were pushing that close the last thing you wanted was a dead tank.

Overgear/Farming content isn't a good measuring stick for if classes are balanced or not.

I don't think many DRKs or PLDs will be sympathetic to the stance dancing woes of a WAR.

Also: 25% damage for 10s equates to one GCD, keep in mind that when PLD has to swap it loses 2 GCD - two jumps worth for a WAR - straight up before it loses its 20% damage, a disadvantage to the point where most probably don't even swap until the jump and just drop the shield oath buff. This is in the two jump scenario, anything progression wise PLD is clearly still worse off.

PLD do have to swap for the buster rather than sentinel alone as there is an auto immediately after which does about 3k, just sentinel leaves the total at about 17.4k with respect to the standard 16k HP, ShO brings this to 13.9k which is reliable. The extra STR at 16k outweighs the DPS loss from the swap. It can be done without but for the healing window is very small even for precasted heals.

Finally: in the same kind of run the WAR can holmgang the first buster and stack cooldowns on the second, only needing to enter defiance once in two or three jumps, videos are not hard to find. In fact i would guess more two jump groups are double WAR than PLD/anything. If it was it almost certainly wouldn't have a shield oath PLD opener, it would have a tank with higher hate mods in its dps stance.