RIP Ninja

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'm curious as to what this still even does. We know we're getting something to combo off Gust Slash to extend Huton, but they showed two new combat skills in the trailer... I'd assume the very Ninja-y looking ability was Triple Attack, but one of these skills hasn't really been explained.

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The triple attack is explained as basically a buff to the next weaponskill move (not a weaponskill in itself). I think the move at 2:58 is the Triple attack (Musou Sandan).
The move following it is a new weaponskill as well as the last move that you linked specifically.

One of these moves is Issou which increases weaponskill damage. The other extends Fuuton.
We don't know which is which though. I can't really guess.

The OP is meh. As someone who almost exclusively play melee dps classes I love the idea of positionals and the skills that are coming. If positionals bother you there is always bard, Personally I would like to see the class get more intricate and complicated but that's just me. Any decent melee dps player will have no issue hitting postionals. Especially those who played DRG pre buff.

Well the problem is "If positionals bother you there is NIN currently" for anyone who wanted to melee dps; then it becomes "If positionals bother you, too bad, you can't play melee dps, deal with it".
Having choices is good...

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Originally Posted by Erudain

Well the problem is "If positionals bother you there is NIN currently" for anyone who wanted to melee dps; then it becomes "If positionals bother you, too bad, you can't play melee dps, deal with it".
Having choices is good...

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Dragoon is always an option. Their positional (Read: sole positional move) simply provides a bonus if used positionally. Granted, if you don't use it from the flank/rear your DPS will suffer by like 3~8% at minimum but still.

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Originally Posted by Kuurei

Dragoon is always an option. Their positional (Read: sole positional move) simply provides a bonus if used positionally. Granted, if you don't use it from the flank/rear your DPS will suffer by like 3~8% at minimum but still.

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you mean like how all current positionals work? a bonus to dmg and the only current one giving a debuff when used.(trick attack).

*sigh* the reason I never play my monk is because moving back and forth constantly is friggan annoying. If ninja is going to start playing like that then I guess I wont be taking it to 60. Shame cuz I love my ninja but I don't find moving back and forth from flank to rear for every single attack to be fun. Guess its time to level a ranged class.

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Originally Posted by Kuurei

Dragoon is always an option. Their positional (Read: sole positional move) simply provides a bonus if used positionally. Granted, if you don't use it from the flank/rear your DPS will suffer by like 3~8% at minimum but still.

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Two actually: Heavy Thrust for Flank, Chaos Thrust from behind.

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Originally Posted by Erudain

Well the problem is "If positionals bother you there is NIN currently" for anyone who wanted to melee dps; then it becomes "If positionals bother you, too bad, you can't play melee dps, deal with it".
Having choices is good...

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Until everyone understands this, I will continue to say it, since this is really the problem.

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Originally Posted by Kuurei

Dragoon is always an option. Their positional (Read: sole positional move) simply provides a bonus if used positionally. Granted, if you don't use it from the flank/rear your DPS will suffer by like 3~8% at minimum but still.

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Right now, there are 3 MDPS classes:

The Monk, which requires so many positionals per minute I wouldn't even know how to accurately quantify it other than a loose guess of 18 positionals per minute making the assumption of 3 out of every 5 abilities per 10 seconds is a positional, which is likely not correct but seems good enough for the purposes of debate.

The Dragoon, which requires a mere 5 positionals per minute (3 heavy thrusts and 2 impulse drives per minute).

And Ninja, which requires a mere one positional per minute. It happens to be the largest pass/fail positional in the entire game at the present, though the only positional we know that will be close to it in pass fail is the Warrior's perfect parry, interestingly enough.

When you examine this, people who love positionals already have a class in the MDPS archetype. People who are okay with, but don't enjoy too many, have the Dragoon. People who hate positionals but want a melee DPS class have the Ninja if they can begrudgingly accept a mere one.

You are basically telling anyone who hates positionals but loves melee DPS to play RDPS classes, which many people do not enjoy.

Saying "Their positionals are bonus" does not alleviate the fact that they are required to maximize DPS as a MDPS class. They just don't completely cripple your DPS like they used to back when they were hard requirements. And to anyone who doesn't enjoy this, they are basically out of luck, because everyone wants the Ninja to be turned into a pseudo Dragoon or a Monk without giving anything in return. So instead of having even one class cater to the people who don't like positionals but love MDPS, you are saying they just shouldn't be MDPS because the people who love positionals and RDPS classes want something different from the Monk or Dragoon in style, but functionally similar in gameplay.

How can you not see this as a problem?

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Until everyone understands this, I will continue to say it, since this is really the problem.



Right now, there are 3 MDPS classes:

The Monk, which requires so many positionals per minute I wouldn't even know how to accurately quantify it other than a loose guess of 18 positionals per minute making the assumption of 3 out of every 5 abilities per 10 seconds is a positional, which is likely not correct but seems good enough for the purposes of debate.

The Dragoon, which requires a mere 5 positionals per minute (3 heavy thrusts and 2 impulse drives per minute).

And Ninja, which requires a mere one positional per minute. It happens to be the largest pass/fail positional in the entire game at the present, though the only positional we know that will be close to it in pass fail is the Warrior's perfect parry, interestingly enough.

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none of the three have actual requirements. they are positional bonuses, in that you do more damage when it is done from a certain position. initially, the only one that had true requirements was dragoon, in that you had to have impulse drive hit from behind, otherwise none of the next moves would apply.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

none of the three have actual requirements. they are positional bonuses, in that you do more damage when it is done from a certain position.

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Uh-huh, just like combos aren't actual "requirements", because you can just keep spamming the last strike of your combo indefinitely, without first having to execute the first two. It'll be ineffective, but hey, they aren't "requirements".

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

none of the three have actual requirements. they are positional bonuses, in that you do more damage when it is done from a certain position. initially, the only one that had true requirements was dragoon, in that you had to have impulse drive hit from behind, otherwise none of the next moves would apply.

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If you're someone who wants to do the best possible with a job, they are very much requirements. Right now NIN is designed in a way that allows it to have minimal positionals but competitive DPS. Adding positionals the job's skills will make using them the new standard for anyone who wants to put full effort into playing the job to the best of their ability, vs their ability to do that now without having to do positionals.

While I highly doubt it would be such, I will laugh if it turns out all the new positionals are actually just back ones like Trick, with similar large increases to potency, in part because that would give a very good reason for the aggro dump too: Do lots of damage, dump on tank as soon as it turns around, do more big damage since its back is turned again.

Again I doubt it would be that simple, but would laugh.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Uh-huh, just like combos aren't actual "requirements", because you can just keep spamming the last strike of your combo indefinitely, without first having to execute the first two. It'll be ineffective, but hey, they aren't "requirements".

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im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS. also, really horrible leap in logic

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Again I doubt it would be that simple, but would laugh.

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I've been entertaining the idea that they'll just make it so Dancing Edge requires you to be at the flank of a target. Leaving us at exactly the same number of positional requirements, provided a Warrior is around.

Guess that might be an issue with the Dork Knight bandwagon though. All I really expect is for the Huton refresh combo to have a requirement, putting us at 2 every minute, though.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS. also, really horrible leap in logic

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It's the exact same point. You can sit there and mash Aeolian Edge all day. The other two steps aren't required, after all. Unless, of course, you want to do competitive DPS. But if "required for competitive DPS" is what we mean by "required," then positionals are also required. Hate to break it to you.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

It's the exact same point. You can sit there and mash Aeolian Edge all day. The other two steps aren't required, after all. Unless, of course, you want to do competitive DPS. But if "required for competitive DPS" is what we mean by "required," then positionals are also required. Hate to break it to you.

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That's incorrect. Current NIN does competitive dps with only one positional. Proof that it's possible.

There are also many other ways to increase dps than by adding more positionals.

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Originally Posted by Adire

That's incorrect. Current NIN does competitive dps with only one positional. Proof that it's possible.

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/sigh. . .

You realize I'm on your side, right? At least, you seem to be on the side of "would rather not have positionals on NIN." Am I misunderstanding you? Because my post to Kaze was that starting in HW, positionals will be truly required in the same way that combos are currently required.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

/sigh. . .

You realize I'm on your side, right? At least, you seem to be on the side of "would rather not have positionals on NIN." Am I misunderstanding you? Because my post to Kaze was that starting in HW, positionals will be truly required in the same way that combos are currently required.

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I've seen some of your previous posts, you do seem to be on the same side as me judging by those. I think I got the wrong idea from your post there though. I apologize. I will explain the idea I got from your post if you wish, though I think it was the wrong one of the two meanings I got from it.

Edit: I will go ahead and explain. The first idea I got from your post was that you seemed to be saying that positionals are essentially a necessary evil to add to NIN as bonus damage to keep it competitive in DPS.

The second idea that I got after reading it again was that you were saying that a NIN will have to use positionals that are added in order to keep up competitive DPS, and that not using them will result in subpar DPS. I'm guessing the second meaning I got from your post is correct, yes?

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Originally Posted by Adire

I've seen some of your previous posts, you do seem to be on the same side as me judging by those. I think I got the wrong idea from your post there though. I apologize. I will explain the idea I got from your post if you wish, though I think it was the wrong one of the two meanings I got from it.

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lol, no problem.

Basically, once positionals are added, they're not so much "positional bonuses" as they are "positional requirements" with penalties for missing them. I mean, one could try to say that TA has a "positional bonus" for attacking from behind, but considering that the difference between hitting the positional and not is basically the difference in just not using a ninjutsu for that 20 seconds, it's really more of a requirement. Once you have positionals, hitting all the positionals (or at least the vast majority) becomes the standard by which the class is balanced and judged. Same as how you don't balance DRG off of the guy who stands next to the tank spamming uncombo'd Full Thrust and not using any CDs. >_>

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS.

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As much as I hate to support the completely no-positional side, the analogy is completely valid.
Positionals give bonus potency just like Combos do.
Missing a positional means you lose damage just like messing up a combo order would.


Any added positionals would be something you're expected to hit, and SE will damage our balance around it.
So it's not just some icing on the cake damage, though it'd be nice if they add potency bonuses to what we currently have.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Right now, there are 3 MDPS classes:

The Monk, which requires so many positionals per minute I wouldn't even know how to accurately quantify it other than a loose guess of 18 positionals per minute making the assumption of 3 out of every 5 abilities per 10 seconds is a positional, which is likely not correct but seems good enough for the purposes of debate.

The Dragoon, which requires a mere 5 positionals per minute (3 heavy thrusts and 2 impulse drives per minute).

And Ninja, which requires a mere one positional per minute. It happens to be the largest pass/fail positional in the entire game at the present, though the only positional we know that will be close to it in pass fail is the Warrior's perfect parry, interestingly enough.

When you examine this, people who love positionals already have a class in the MDPS archetype. People who are okay with, but don't enjoy too many, have the Dragoon. People who hate positionals but want a melee DPS class have the Ninja if they can begrudgingly accept a mere one.

You are basically telling anyone who hates positionals but loves melee DPS to play RDPS classes, which many people do not enjoy.

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I covered this before.
Monks use around 28 positionals per minute. They have a ~2s gcd and all of their weaponskills are positionals except for Touch of Death which is refreshed every 30 seconds.
Hence 28.

DRG has 5, and NIN has 1.
I still don't see this as balanced though since MNK is so much higher than the rest.
It's already favoring a lack of positionals.
It shouldn't be about who likes positionals and who doesn't. It should be an even scale about how much you can handle them.
I also think it's like casters dealing with standing in place, everyone has a certain amount of mobility but still have to watch consider their movement to some extent.

That said, I understand some play NIN because it has no positionals.
Maybe it should've been added on to DRG more, but I really think they did this simply because they want positionals to be part of the nature of melee as much as standing still is the nature of ranged.
They added WM to BRD for this reason, and positionals to NIN for this.
So 1 positional per minute was never really going to fly, if that's their intended design.

I'm not going to repeat why I think NIN makes more sense to have positionals(yes, even non-rear positionals) than, at least, DRG.
But I do understand the sentiment that there's going to be backlash between changing the dynamic.
Then again, we don't know how many new positionals we're getting, so we'll see what that dynamic happens to be after.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

lol, no problem.

Basically, once positionals are added, they're not so much "positional bonuses" as they are "positional requirements" with penalties for missing them. I mean, one could try to say that TA has a "positional bonus" for attacking from behind, but considering that the difference between hitting the positional and not is basically the difference in just not using a ninjutsu for that 20 seconds, it's really more of a requirement. Once you have positionals, hitting all the positionals (or at least the vast majority) becomes the standard by which the class is balanced and judged. Same as how you don't balance DRG off of the guy who stands next to the tank spamming uncombo'd Full Thrust and not using any CDs. >_>

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We're in agreement then :)

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

While I highly doubt it would be such, I will laugh if it turns out all the new positionals are actually just back ones like Trick, with similar large increases to potency, in part because that would give a very good reason for the aggro dump too: Do lots of damage, dump on tank as soon as it turns around, do more big damage since its back is turned again.

Again I doubt it would be that simple, but would laugh.

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Honestly, i have been and continue to laugh at the reaction myself.

I mean seriously, where do the majority of non-tank physical attacking classes usually hang out during a fight at present? The positional req being added to some NIN moves won't be from the front-which leaves either flank(the side) or the rear-again where we are standing anyway.

Which in actual gameplay means all a NIN has to do to hit the positional req is stand in one of 2 spots(the breaks in the mob targeting circle-which, for the 3rd time now, is where most of us should be standing anyways to avoid frontal and rear cleaves) and make a single small move back or forth into either the flank or into the rear.

And that's gonna 'destroy the spirit of the job' or 'homogenize' the job or <add catchy forum euphemism here> NIN as a job...

So yeah, still don't buy it. And still laughing at the continued groupthink overreaction.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

snip.

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im trying to have the whole thing center around having positionals, not someone being quite frankly, stupid. the thing that is mostly annoying about this(the people saying Nin will die with positonals) is that no one knows exactly what is coming.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

not someone being quite frankly, stupid

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Be the change you want to see in the world. I suggest you start by not claiming that positionals are 'not required'. It's not the case for Dragoon. It's definitely not the case for Monk. It's not even the case for Ninja's two positionals (really 1 because you wouldn't use sneak attack over trick attack outside of solo content). Everything is balanced around the classes hitting most of their positionals.

When they're added to ninja they will be required. Just as much as using combos in the right order is required. Anyone standing in one spot missing all their positionals will be seen, quite rightly, as a terrible player. Just like someone spamming unprocced rage of halone or standing behind the boss mashing bootshine or heavy thrust all day. Just like a ninja who currently uses Trick Attack from flank.

If you want intelligent arguments, try making them.

Honestly, I expect the developers to be thinking that competitive DPS should all have to dance the same dance for their GCD damage, as it were.

Mudra lag is the only issue with that, but that is something that can, and very much should, be fixed. Then what? Ninja is in the same league as Monk and Dragoon while having no real complexity to it at all. Ninja honestly feels more like Bard on a good day, and Bard doesn't really come close to Monk or Dragoon. They can either add positional requirements to justify Ninjas damage output, or they can nerf its damage output to be more inline with Bard.

They could do something different to "earn" Ninja its GCD damage, but I'm struggling to think what. If you remove the lag issue (which doesn't even seem to affect everyone) Mudra are a joke to execute, the added steps in their use is paid off by their frequency and potency compared to Dragoons Jumps, while Monks surplus of positionals is the cost for them not really having any abilities of note. If anything that Huton extending combo isn't a band aid to fix Mudra lag, it is in recognition of the ability output between Ninja and Dragoon compared to what goes into executing them; For Dragoon not really anything, for Ninja quite a bit more. Been a while since I compared Jumps to Ninjutsus but I remember it being surprisingly close.

It perhaps should be the cast that Monk and Ninja sit on different ends of the spectrum; Monk with most of its damage coming from GCD rotations with lots of positional requirements. Ninja with most of its damage coming from ability rotation with that holding the "complexity" (Mudra) with few positional requirements on a relatively weak GCD rotation. With Dragoon sitting in the middle. Instead Ninja and Dragoon seem to occupy the same spot, likely due to Mudra lag (which lets remember, has basically been an issue with the game since launch, Mudra just made it more noticeable again). They don't want to shift the focus to Mudra because then the issue is even worse. So now Ninja gets a higher ability output without having to refresh Huton to compensate for the "complexity" of their execution, but since Ninjas GCD rotation is still providing a solid chunk of its overall DPS, and now it isn't really relying on Mudra to enhance that DPS, it should be earned in the same way as Dragoon. That's what I assume the developers are thinking, anyway. Not really sure I agree with it though.

I wonder if it would have been a better idea to change Raiton to be more like Huton/Kiss of the whatever (it would certainly provide a nice visual effect). You keep Raiton up because it enhances your GCD damage, rather than positionals earning that damage bonus, Mudra is through Raiton. The added benefit would be that Fuma Shuriken would then be the main source of ability damage for Ninja. Slightly less damage overall, but then it isn't exactly complex to do. GCD damage would increase to compensate, but it would still be dependent on Mudra.

i think you don't realize what you are saying....

we can't compare monk or dragoon with ninja about positional. monk was made around positional, all it gameplay is fluid because it was made with this in mind. dragoon had the positional added and they did needed to change itafter a long time for make it less punishing. and they only have 2 positional skill now... (did check for be sure) heavy thrust and chaos thrust. and them main focus is to exectue one of the longuest cycle around.

but i digress, on the other hand ninja had one out global cooldown positional. and had to focus to execute a cycle and execute mudra in order and in short time for add them ninjutsu to them cycle... now they want us in plus to pay attention to our positional about the boss.... without even talk to the community playing this jobs, they did decide a soo important change about the jobs. (that was selled as a jobs with little to no positional) and for which reason? because tank are the one attack head-on?

ok, add position to the ninja, but at the time add a system as the mudra systeme to the dragoon and monk, a system where the skill can fail because you did mess up or because of the lag. please add them this, no trouble! give us the positional they use, but give them a same system as us!

ps: ok i want we stop something, monk recquire positional, but it don't recquire to change of position every 2 second, but mostly every 6-8 second... isn't that hard... since you will normally stay at the edge of the flank position and have a small step to do on the side for be in rear position.

don't get me wrong it don't means that the jobs is easy, but it's only a different gameplay based on a movement between flank and rear every 6-8 second, actually the hardest part is to make sure to not loose GL on some fight.

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Originally Posted by Krylo

Just like a ninja who currently uses Trick Attack from flank.

If you want intelligent arguments, try making them.

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not going to lie, i laughed at this. so many times have trick attack hit the flank because i moved early in t13. back on point tho, i agree that to play to the best of a jobs potential, hitting where you will do more damage is better, and should be aimed for. if something prevents you from doing that reliably(a bosses move or being rooted) then there isnt much that can be done.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ok, add position to the ninja, but at the time add a system as the mudra systeme to the dragoon and monk, a system where the skill can fail because you did mess up or because of the lag. please add them this, no trouble! give us the positional they use, but give them a same system as us!

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I might be inclined to agree, if the mudra system had a profound impact on being able to move into position for a weaponskill, but that isn't the case.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I might be inclined to agree, if the mudra system had a profound impact on being able to move into position for a weaponskill, but that isn't the case.

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thats one reason why i dont really see adding positionals as a big problem. at most, its a slight annoyance, but something one can easily get used to.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

thats one reason why i dont really see adding positionals as a big problem. at most, its a slight annoyance, but something one can easily get used to.

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Yeah, I'm reserving judgement until we have more info. Until then I'm just wary, because I don't much care for positionals as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

It shouldn't be about who likes positionals and who doesn't. It should be an even scale about how much you can handle them.

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No that's exactly how it should be. The entire point of having different classes/jobs is to have a unique playstyle for each one to appeal to a wide audience. I'm sick and tired of developers homogenizing their classes in every single MMO. That crap is boring.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Mudra lag is the only issue with that, but that is something that can, and very much should, be fixed.

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Mudras would be fixed by taking them off the GCD completely. Silly that it even has a GCD regardless of how short it is.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

No that's exactly how it should be. The entire point of having different classes/jobs is to have a unique playstyle for each one to appeal to a wide audience. I'm sick and tired of developers homogenizing their classes in every single MMO. That crap is boring.

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Yes, exactly. There are ways to make a rotation more complex without needing positionals, just as there's ways to make rotations more complex without forcing someone to stand completely still. The Bard rotation is allowed to be lower DPS than the BLM or SMN because the Bard doesn't need to stop attacking while moving, so it can be a rotation where using the most optimal skill for every moment is required. The Ninja can have more rotational complexity in much the same way as a Bard could to accomplish the same thing.

That is, they are punished for not using the most optimal ability at all times, otherwise known as a priority-based rotation. This is what the Ninja actually has right now, it's just too simple if you have access to a warrior or another ninja, and not much more complicated if you don't. What are the optimal ability rotations? Basically Huton>Suiton(trick attack)>Raiton, and Dancing Edge/Storm's Eye>Mutilate>Shadow Fang>Aeolian Edge. That's it. That's the entire Ninja rotation.

And that is what the devs should be fixing. Outside of those abilities, all you have are your jugulate, mug, Kassatsu, which is prioritized to be used after Suiton or when its GCD is up thereafter, and Blood for Blood and Internal Release when able (also ideally prioritized around Suiton).

How do you make this more complicated? Well, I'd first start by just getting rid of Dancing Edge or make Dancing Edge the number 2 position ability before pushing one of 2 other third abilities after (adjust damage accordingly), such as Shadow Fang or Huton-extender. That would complicate the rotation, and would help stifle DPS while making the rotation more complex, as now you have 3 different 3-button combos to juggle instead of just 2 with a token 2-length combo. It also makes timing shadow fang a bit trickier. This is just an example of what can be done. Moving Dancing Edge to the mid part of the rotation also serves to put it in the same league as the piercing resistance debuff of Dragoons and helps to devalue Storm's Eye as a requirement in raids while also serving to make it so NIN damage is more consistent regardless of the inclusion of a warrior or second ninja, as it really does make a noticeable difference as to whether it's up or not.

But I digress. The point is that class diversity is important, not having positionals but having a complicated priority system would serve to make the class have the same difficulty as the Monk without killing diversity.

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Originally Posted by TakezoKensei

Go watch evangela on youtube! lol what a troll. If she plays like that no wonder people think ninja sucks.

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aside from the troll part, it seems Evangela is pretty bad. the whole video, i dont think i saw any katon/doton, or dots.

well. I feel bad for naming names. Overreaction to some toxic gameplay ive run across a lot myself lately.

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Originally Posted by TakezoKensei

well. I feel bad for naming names. Overreaction to some toxic gameplay ive run across a lot myself lately.

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Hide takezo is exposing bad gameplay. We no allow criticism in ff forums. Everyone is amazing that's why coil clear rates suck remember? Lol

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Originally Posted by Taranok

...The point is that class diversity is important, not having positionals but having a complicated priority system would serve to make the class have the same difficulty as the Monk without killing diversity.

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only this part make me tilt, because i have never found monk hard to play, the rotation is quite simple and don't change, the only hard part over it, it's the time where you loose the GL because of the fight mechanic mostly. but outside this the monk is far from being complicate, you do have an optimal position to place yourself for have to mov the little possible while executing your series of combo, either on flank or rear. most fo the time you will chain 3 skill before switch of position and if you respect the position it's quite easy.

the difficulty of the ninja don't come from the weaponskill rotation only, but from the weaponskill rotation plus the ninjutsu. simply say that you need to execute suiton, raiton and such are kinda understatement over the trouble it can create.

I dont think Jobs are really balanced around difficulty but rather around disadvantages. As a DRG main i found MNK much simpler to play than NIN, imo NIN is already the most difficult melee to play due to the large amount of monitoring needed. So i dont think that postionals were added to increase NINs difficulty but rather for balancing porpuses.

The way that i look at it is, that if you are a good player neither the MNK, DRG or NIN rotation should give you any trouble and you should be able to play them flawlessly, yet when it comes to dealing with mechanics (for example stacking with the group), you would lose a good chunk of dmg as MNK, you would lose a bit dmg as DRG and you would lose no dmg as NIN.

What that means is that they would have to give NIN the lowest dps of the melees and in order to prevent that, they added positionals so that the playing field is even.
I think its the same with Bard and the other ranged dps, obviously people loved Bards freedom of movement but Bard players wanted to have their dps closer to the mages, so they had to give them similar disadvantages to keep things balanced.

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Originally Posted by TakezoKensei

well. I feel bad for naming names. Overreaction to some toxic gameplay ive run across a lot myself lately.

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That nin...really is bad. I have never seen nin perform that bad before...or was it just a troll attempt for the whole dungeon? At the end I was pretty sure it was trolling though, auto attack the boss, lb the add, dance in the middle of the arena.

I noticed the mudra sequence, it's pretty slow. Is it the mudra lag people were talking about? Is it that bad in na server that you have to input them that slow?

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Originally Posted by Neri

That nin...really is bad. I have never seen nin perform that bad before...or was it just a troll attempt for the whole dungeon? At the end I was pretty sure it was trolling though, auto attack the boss, lb the add, dance in the middle of the arena.

I noticed the mudra sequence, it's pretty slow. Is it the mudra lag people were talking about? Is it that bad in na server that you have to input them that slow?

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For me it is sometimes.