DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

Dragon fire dive is the 2nd strongest AoE attack in the game. No way. I say make it on par with flare damage.

The changes that MUST be implemented:
1. +20% damage increase from Heavy Thrust
Reason: Ninjas get a free +20% buff from Kiss of the Wasp and Viper. They also get a +10% slashing increase from their rotation. This is a 30% damage increase right off the back without CDs while DRGs have 25%. With the reccomended fix DRGs will have +30%.
2. Increased potency on Dragonfire Dive to 400, reduce cooldown timer to 90 seconds
Reason:
Ninja's longest CD is Trick Attack which is half as long as Dragonfire Dive and its potency is 150 higher. Dragonfire Dive is ridiculously weak in comparison.
3. Make Impulse Drive give +10% skill speed
Reason: Monk and Ninja both have skill speed buffs
4. +15% piercing damage from Disembowel
Reason: Monk and Ninja have higher potencies on every attack...
5. Reduce Elusive Jump's CD to 60 seconds
Reason: Shukuchi is 60 seconds, another CD half as long as the DRG's

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Originally Posted by Powress

The changes that MUST be implemented:
3. Make Impulse Drive give +10% skill speed
Reason: Monk and Ninja both have skill speed buffs
4. +15% piercing damage from Disembowel
Reason: Monk and Ninja have higher potencies on every attack...

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The others are good, but concern here is: TP Cost, DRG skills cost more TP then MNK and NIN.. I'd rather they modify weapon damage/auto-attack speed/damage than mess with skill speed because of the drain on TP already (unless they reduced cost accordingly). And, NIN has good potency attacks, but MNK potency is not stronger then DRG (DRG has FT and Dis/CT which are 200+, MNK has True Strike that's 190)

Dragonfire Dive? The strongest AOE attack in the game?

But...

I dunno, I've always had a negative experience with it. It's like getting ready to Peter North something, and then nope... Blanks. Blanks everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Powress

The changes that MUST be implemented:
Increased potency on Dragonfire Dive to 400, reduce cooldown timer to 90 seconds
Reason:
Ninja's longest CD is Trick Attack which is half as long as Dragonfire Dive and its potency is 150 higher. Dragonfire Dive is ridiculously weak in comparison.

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I don't think you are looking at the whole picture of this request.

Dragonfire Dive: Delivers a jumping fire-based attack with a potency of 250 to all nearby enemies.

Trick Attack: Can only be executed when under the effect of Hide. Single Target Only

Hide: Cannot be executed while in combat.

Requires Suiton.

Suiton: Additional Effect: Grants the caster Suiton
Recast: 20s
Shares Timer with all Ninjutsu

I don't agree on the simple potency changes. There is a severe lack of overall synergy in Dragoon's kit, both in what its skills do for a Dragoon/Lancer and for what Dragoon, as a job, does for a party.


As just a random idea: I'd have 3 changes that could severely change Dragoon's synergy and make it quite an asset for the party - the degrees of which can be adjusted as needed.

1st. Heavy Thrust gives its buff regardless of location, gives an additional debuff to the monster if preformed in the correct circumstance. (I'm guessing increases chance of critical hits against target as that's not a current thing, debuff wise.) Impulse Drive, instead of being required to initiate combo, increases Dragoon's Critical Hit rate for a set time when preformed from behind. This reverses the carrot vs stick approach on preforming combos correctly.

2nd. Rework Power Surge for Dragoon specifically. As an idea, have it that Spirit Surge works like a stance - storing charges for every completed combo trigger up to a cap. Then, on re-using the skill (or upon next jump), the next jump of any type receives additional damage. (Potentially past the +50% damage it currently has.) As a trick, the Heavy Thrust - Ring of Thorns combo confers a stack for each enemy hit. Making this skill extremely quick to cap in heavy add circumstances.

3rd. Have Dragonfire Dive affected by Power Surge and confer a vulnerability down debuff on all hit targets when used with Power Surge with either a set duration, or scaling based on the stacks of Spirit Surge.

This would be a significant buff to synergy and provide more factors in which they can adjust Dragoon in the future, while rewarding skillful playstyle and offering more damage contribution to the party overall. This would also accentuate Dragoon's superior Multiple-Monster damage capabilities on all fronts, making them a VERY powerful ally to other AoE classes and during add-heavy phases of boss fights, giving them a unique utility among melee classes that will still be helpful during appropriate single target situations.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

I don't think you are looking at the whole picture of this request.

Dragonfire Dive: Delivers a jumping fire-based attack with a potency of 250 to all nearby enemies.

Trick Attack: Can only be executed when under the effect of Hide. Single Target Only

Hide: Cannot be executed while in combat.

Requires Suiton.

Suiton: Additional Effect: Grants the caster Suiton
Recast: 20s
Shares Timer with all Ninjutsu

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Trick attack still has a cooldown of 60 seconds, shared with sneak attack. But yes, the person you replied to missed the context of it being an AoE

Screw it, all jumps use MP

Dragoon's play style right now is so rigidly rotation based that any change besides potency or minor positional changes would polarize Dragoon players between people who like the (sometimes soul crushing) rigidity of playing a Dragoon and those who want more flexibility.

Short term, as in for the remainder of 2.4 and 2.5, they're probably only going to make changes to combat DPS discrepancies in relation to ease of play discrepancies. Any major job overhaul will most likely take place in 3.0.

Impulse Drive and Heavy Thrust should certainly have their positional requirements waived for starting combos/activating buffs but the positional requirement for increased potency should still be there.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Trick attack still has a cooldown of 60 seconds, shared with sneak attack. But yes, the person you replied to missed the context of it being an AoE

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Ninjutsu is still situational.

TA / Raiton rotation priority on a single target.
Trash/multiple priority for most NINs prefer Doton and Katon.

Huton has to always be up, period.

Ppl need to stop comparing DRG with other DPS and focus on what it lacks on its own, not carbon copying. Utility to a party and a minor DPS improvement or mechanic change.

This is going somewhere:

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Originally Posted by Dragoonite

Impulse Drive and Heavy Thrust should certainly have their positional requirements waived for starting combos/activating buffs but the positional requirement for increased potency should still be there.

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Originally Posted by Amador

My two cents...

Dragonfire Dive Removed From Game. (I've always hated this ability and find it worthless. I would much rather replace it with an ability that removes the recast on jumps, or make it so that it's damage is not "magical".

I believe a multitude of things need to be changed as well.

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Dragonfire Dive removed? Bro do you even Dragoon?! That's like one of our best / signature moves ever. 250 potency AoE not to mention a super cool animation to go with it (Who doesn't wanna look badass diving to your opponents and bursting them with dragon flames?)

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Originally Posted by ZodMel

sounds like a personal issue....

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Nope switched to ninja and didn't have a problem with it and cleared it quite easily.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Thanks for the all feedback.

The development team is currently working on making adjustments to enhance dragoon and they are taking all of your feedback into consideration. Once the implementation timing and other such details have been decided I will make a follow-up.

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Sounds great :D

So all Grekumah did was copy/paste of Triairy's response in the JP forums. Alrighty then.

Still, good to know they are taking it seriously. Though I hope they are able to get it right, rather than run into another XI Drg problem. "It's not strong enough! Oh no, it's too strong!! Nerf or nothing! Drg lfg 4ever /wrist"

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Originally Posted by Ecks007

So all Grekumah did was copy/paste of Triairy's response in the JP forums. Alrighty then.

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What more do you want, really? You get a response, one that's not copy/pasted but translated for our convenience, an acknowledgement to the issues, and you still remain dismissive? There's not pleasing you at all, no matter what they do.

Meh, in my opinion Dragoon didn't need a buff in the first place: true, they do about 5-10% less damage than Monks, but they buff Bards of the same amount (double if you have two of them in your party) so it pretty much evens out. Also, Dragoons have much more burst DPS than Monks could ever hope to have.

Anyway, I just hope they don't give them some lame buffs like they did with BLM (which translates into Full Thrust having 500 potency); an off GCD Feint would be nice imo.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

Meh, in my opinion Dragoon didn't need a buff in the first place: true, they do about 10% less damage than Monks, but they buff Bards of the same amount (double if you have two of them in your party) so it pretty much evens out.

Anyway, I just hope they don't give them some lame buffs like they did with BLM (which translates into Full Thrust having 500 potency); an off GCD Feint would be nice imo.

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One, the debuff doesn't quite work that way, it does not effect DoT damage, which pushes down the damage contribution.

And second, Bard's top end damage does not equate a Monks or even a Dragoon's top damage.

And BLM's buffs might have seemed 'lame' to you, but they were quite effective of the field. My raid group noticed the difference instantly. I do hope for more depth in what we get for Dragoon, but what I want is something to be effectual to the skill floor and ceiling to the class, not just something fancy and worthless.

Dragoon certain feels left out in the cool. However I think with a few tweaks that could easily change. First step would be normalizing their Magic Defense.

Next change Jump to have either a 20s or 15s cooldown. At 15s potency may need to be reduced slightly.

Remove the positional requirement from Heavy Thrust and increase the bonus to 20%.

Finally while I think Impulse Drive should retain it's position requirement to start the combo, add a 12 second 5% damage increase debuff to Chaos Thrust that after it falls off gives a 30s immunity buff, like how Virus works currently.

I think all of this would clear up damage issues Dragoon has for Single Target putting them on par with Monk and Ninja, while also giving them some raid wide utility as well.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

snips

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what you ask with this change is to make the dragoon the top dps of the game nothing less. reduce the cd of jump will solve nothing since it really good when used with life surge, that will push the potency of jump to 300. do it will make the mechanic more usefull? not really...

actually outside raiton, sneak and trick attack (that are skill out gcd) dragoon have the highest potency attack for the melee in the combo, with full thrust to 330. indeed we can argue that it's not that much and that ninja can outshine this. well it's true...


the trouble with dragoon are not in the number, but more into the feeling of the jobs... jump is not enough for be compared to other melee mechanic. you do have the combo system with stances for the monk and the ninjutsu for the ninja. jump in comparaison look...meh. i think it's where the jobs fail. However is allows too to have a jobs that have the basic mechanic and are more accessible to new player, monk and ninja will ask more for be mastered than dragoon. it's why people see soo many dragoon failing, because people often start by this one.

like i have said previously, let's wait what they will add with the 3.0 and the new skill, it's where the jobs must maybe shine.

ps: i find normal that dragoon is not the top dps for the melee, if you look at the difficulty of master the jobs in comparaison of the two other it's perfectly normal.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

what you ask with this change is to make the dragoon the top dps of the game nothing less. reduce the cd of jump will solve nothing since it really good when used with life surge, that will push the potency of jump to 300. do it will make the mechanic more usefull? not really...

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Reducing CD of Jump was a suggestion with efforts in mind to maximize uptime. Dragoon is often stuck waiting for GCD and this not only causes the job to 'feel' sluggish in my opinion, but also to be literally sluggish when it comes to dps comparative to Monk and Ninja. Uptime is very useful.

On paper Monk is still handedly top in ST DPS. The Heavy Thrust increase was simply meant to close the gap a bit, and the Chaos Thrust debuff was to emphasize Dragoon as an add killer, which is why I suggested that wording, while also adding to it's raid wide utility.

Do min max monks include shoulder tackle in their single target rotation (like, literally just run out to shoulder tackle range and tackle back in just for damage)? I mean, don't dragoons thrown in SSD every time it's up to output their maximum damage? What about changing SSD to have a minimum range like shoulder tackle but buff up jump to compensate so that the dps is still the same as before (not accounting the upcoming buff i mean).

Reason I'm suggesting this is cause I've never really counted the difference between using SSDs as they come up or delaying it for actual gap closers in a fight that needs it. Like a levi ex fight with the adds and spumes. Is it better to use them as they come up or use them strategically to get to adds faster? Would it be better if SSD is made to be a pure gap closer only instead of throwing them all in to output numbers that arent even close to monks that probably have shoulder tackle as a real gap closer?

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Do min max monks include shoulder tackle in their single target rotation (like, literally just run out to shoulder tackle range and tackle back in just for damage)? I mean, don't dragoons thrown in SSD every time it's up to output their maximum damage? What about changing SSD to have a minimum range like shoulder tackle but buff up jump to compensate so that the dps is still the same as before (not accounting the upcoming buff i mean).

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You lose auto-attacks (a huge portion of MNK's DPS, easily 150+ DPS just from these) if you're not next to the boss, and the distance to Shoulder Tackle is really quite far. I don't see this being viable no matter how hard you try to do this.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

You lose auto-attacks (a huge portion of MNK's DPS, easily 150+ DPS just from these) if you're not next to the boss, and the distance to Shoulder Tackle is really quite far. I don't see this being viable no matter how hard you try to do this.

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That's what I meant though. Monk gets to use their gap closer as an actual gap closer and be top dps but drg has to use their gap closer as extra damage and...they're not top dps. So shouldn't they get to have an actual jump that is purely intended for mobility instead? I mean, it's dragoon.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

What more do you want, really? You get a response, one that's not copy/pasted but translated for our convenience, an acknowledgement to the issues, and you still remain dismissive? There's not pleasing you at all, no matter what they do.

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I'm not dismissive. I was just expecting perhaps that there could have been some personal flair to the message is all. Something to add to his personality, kind of like Bayohne does, while delivering the news to us players. I realize that a lot of the dev posts are merely translated word for word from another Dev who posted on the JP forums first, but I do enjoy when the devs post something with added personality to it instead of what appears to be just a stiff "official SE response".

That aside you seemed to have not added the second part of what I said in favor of making me appear completely dismissive of the actual news, which I was not. So, good job there.

I like this post.

I rarely play dragoon but i was disappointed to see Dragonfire Dive to not even have a area of effect after its executed (like Flaming Arrow), like it does in the final job quest.

Would also like to see Power Surge extended to Dragonfire Dive too, because it IS a jump attack after all.

And last but not least Life Surge extended to ANY skill used, would probably increase survivability.

Don't know if it's asking too much here, but these are the things i thought of.

I really, really wish Square would take a good long hard look at dragoon jumps.

https://i.imgur.com/S2xROhP.png

I understand that you don't want to give dragoons invulnerability. That's fine. But Jumps are treated the same way as shoulder tackle and aetheral manipulation, which doesn't make any logical sense. Your hitbox is basically dragged across the ground while the animation is somewhere else.

I don't understand why they don't treat it like a teleport, where your hitbox switches from point A to point B, and in the case of Jump itself, you have two simultaneous hitboxes.

If you don't want people jumping over your AoE's, at the very least don't give them the false pretenses that they can. This would've saved all the newbies a lot of pointless deaths, myself included.

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Originally Posted by Uchikomatical

I really, really wish Square would take a good long hard look at dragoon jumps.

https://i.imgur.com/S2xROhP.png

I understand that you don't want to give dragoons invulnerability. That's fine. But Jumps are treated the same way as shoulder tackle and aetheral manipulation, which doesn't make any logical sense. Your hitbox is basically dragged across the ground while the animation is somewhere else.

I don't understand why they don't treat it like a teleport, where your hitbox switches from point A to point B, and in the case of Jump itself, you have two simultaneous hitboxes.

If you don't want people jumping over your AoE's, at the very least don't give them the false pretenses that they can. This would've saved all the newbies a lot of pointless deaths, myself included.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmFaOAZbJSE

My supreme jumping abilities was stopped by a mere rope!

Flip the icon of Full Thrust so the spear points upwards, and buff the potency to 450-500 for that proper DRG style slow but big hits. Lower jump cool downs so they're on 30s, 45s, and 60s cool downs and give us a crit boosting buff that procs off Full Thrust.

Also, make it so Jump is a gap closer because that will pretty much eliminate the animation lock issue and add mobility to DRG.

Why do people think dragoons don't dps well at all? The dragoon in my static hits usually within 40 of me as a monk and we're both pushing optimal DPS for our classes. I recognise there are a tremendous amount of horrible dragoons but that is no excuse to suddenly make them stupid OP. They already buff bards DPS as well.

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Originally Posted by Truth_Chikara

Why do people think dragoons don't dps well at all? The dragoon in my static hits usually within 40 of me as a monk and we're both pushing optimal DPS for our classes. I recognise there are a tremendous amount of horrible dragoons but that is no excuse to suddenly make them stupid OP. They already buff bards DPS as well.

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well lets see, he's usually 40 dps within you. Which is like 12-16 dps under you assuming one bard. He takes a lot more damage than you. He doesn't have dragonkick or mantra.

Why would you ever take this dragoon instead of a monk? The monk will do everything he does but more mantra and more damage seeing as only one of you can keep up dragonkick and he won't take 123123 damage from magical attacks.

In T10 with 115 Nexus a Drg does about 410 to 440 give or take depending on charges and RNG, while a Monk and pretty much do 500+ DPS with TP support.

It's not the DRGs don't DPS(they put up respectable numbers). That is not the issue at hand, it's that they have been invalidated completely from competitive end game raiding and to many that seems unfair. I understand the points that many DRGs or players in general are not in competitive end game (myself included) but the very vocal minority of players that initiated the "Dragoons are now worthless why bring them to ANYTHING" mentality have created a chain reaction (albeit a toxic one at times) that has exploded into something far bigger then simply end game raid balancing.

It's become an issue about power creeping, horrific imbalance and terrible foresight (bum dum tsss) on Square Enixs' fault.

The whole issue of end game viability has simply brought to light a problem that has been amassing underneath the surface of the game.

And in my opinion it's about damn time we got a response.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

well lets see, he's usually 40 dps within you. Which is like 12-16 dps under you assuming one bard. He takes a lot more damage than you. He doesn't have dragonkick or mantra.

Why would you ever take this dragoon instead of a monk? The monk will do everything he does but more mantra and more damage seeing as only one of you can keep up dragonkick and he won't take 123123 damage from magical attacks.

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We're on turn 12 and I'm doing 520ish as a monk at i113 and he's well up there around 500 as i116, granted the ilevel difference, but knowing how to play your class makes a huge difference. In my opinion most dragoons are just bad at being dragoons. Sure buff their magic res, other than that I see no reason to make them dps as hard as a monk.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

what you ask with this change is to make the dragoon the top dps of the game nothing less. reduce the cd of jump will solve nothing since it really good when used with life surge, that will push the potency of jump to 300. do it will make the mechanic more usefull? not really...
actually outside raiton, sneak and trick attack (that are skill out gcd) dragoon have the highest potency attack for the melee in the combo, with full thrust to 330. indeed we can argue that it's not that much and that ninja can outshine this. well it's true...


the trouble with dragoon are not in the number, but more into the feeling of the jobs... jump is not enough for be compared to other melee mechanic. you do have the combo system with stances for the monk and the ninjutsu for the ninja. jump in comparaison look...meh. i think it's where the jobs fail. However is allows too to have a jobs that have the basic mechanic and are more accessible to new player, monk and ninja will ask more for be mastered than dragoon. it's why people see soo many dragoon failing, because people often start by this one.

like i have said previously, let's wait what they will add with the 3.0 and the new skill, it's where the jobs must maybe shine.

ps: i find normal that dragoon is not the top dps for the melee, if you look at the difficulty of master the jobs in comparaison of the two other it's perfectly normal.

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It's true that DRGs don't have to be the top melee DPS like MNKs or NINs do. But for now they're just underpowered and outclassed by both. Both deal more DPS, better survival, and brings more utility to the party - while DRGs don't have any of these. MMO roles tend to be weighted by what I call a "pyramid spectrum": If you got utility and DPS, means you have no survivability. If you got DPS and survivability, means you have no utility. If you got utility and survivablity, you got no DPS. MNKs and NINs has survivability, utility, and DPS, which fills the entire spectrum for a DPS role.

I will be fine if the buffs we get are a 5% increase in HT / potency increase in the FVTT skills and an M.DEF that is equal to our DEF stat.

Why shouldn't DRG be top DPS? Why should Monk stay top DPS?

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Originally Posted by Daweism

Why shouldn't DRG be top DPS? Why should Monk stay top DPS?

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Because they provide too much utility, giving them both top DPS AND all that utility would make them OP.

waitshit

Dragoons should be Gods among all DPS.

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Originally Posted by Daweism

Why shouldn't DRG be top DPS? Why should Monk stay top DPS?

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MNK is harder to play....


START THE BAAAATTTTLLLEE!!!

i agree they need a buff but, don't change how the positional works
yes it sucks if you miss but then theres no challenge/fun to the job, mindless like a PLD

the way i see DRG and have been playing it since 2.0,is that it a good all round damage utility
Highest non rng 20 sec burst, but ninja are close
better range atks and gap close then mnk, but all ninjitsu can be used at range
and strong AOE, still good

mnk's damage +27%+10%+free 5% dmg and 21% ss, ninja gets a free 20%+10% dmg and 15% ss for 70 sec (GL2 basically)
drg has 15%+10% and no ss, lowest in both (offseted by base pot till ninja came)
dmg buffs aside, mnk and ninja get skill speed built in, then can stack crit and det

if we talk about raid util and survivability, i don't see this as too much as a problem so long as the ONE they have is good enough
ninja 10% variability every 60, access to every CC other than sleep
mnk has dragon kick+mantra+fist of earth
drg no magic def, and +10% piercing
continue in next post->

suggestion of what i'd like to see done now
magic def up cuz rng suck if your the only one to die from full hp
increase burst spikes
jump 25-30 sec
power surge- should be 40-50 sec so it doesn't always match up with jump or spin shatter dive, or increase the effect
life surge-same as power surge
wished doom spike width was bit wider (like the lancer form halatali hm)
one or both of
heavy trust increased to 20%, to match ninja
disembowel increase the effect 15-20% on that <- your raid util

then up the pot's increase of some skills, up to devs

other things (maybe for expansion)
skill or trait to increase skill speed
faint keep - as is. it has its use in PVP like one elm punch.
keen furry - keep as is probably
the only reason i bring this up is because mnks have fist of earth, and this goes back to drgs magical def,
so maybe give them a something that that just up reduced damg,you did it with WAR because self heals weren't enough.