Feedback Regarding the Relic Upgrade Quest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starlord

Though there is another way to get the same relic through the books you get with myth tomes, that's the way I will probably go for. The thing here is to have "options" and we have options to do so. 1 way is FATEs the other is getting those 9 books through myth. I am sure both ways of getting the Relic gets you to the same destination in the end.

---

i don't think you understand the quest. to get to the nine books you have to grind the 12 rare drop items from the FATEs, they are not two different options, one continues off the other you have to do them both.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alegis

Theres no way you can defend the lazyness of SEs developers here.
They could have made an interesting an difficult questchain, but instead they used an already overused (and because of that, hated) gameplay element.
Its in no way interesting or difficult, in absolutely no way.

---

It's not really a matter of laziness on SE's side, but the very nature of the game. They cannot make a regular questline where we just go to X Y and Z and beat A B and C to get E F and G. Because then that questline would be done in a day and people would be back to saying this is a Monday Game.

So SE did what many other MMOs have done, they put a shiny carrot and the end of a long boring stick and tell you to have at it.

It bares repeating again, they could not make a regular questline, because then it would be done in a day. There is no other way to make something legitimately last as long as they want the Zodiac questline to last, without a grind. Because otherwise, Monday.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starlord

And to me that's exactly what I ( as in my opinion) got. "Quality Content" is subjective. You may think it's trash, when I think it's treasure " One man's trash is another man's treasure" :P

---

You're right. Fun is subjective.


I find fun doing things that other people don't find fun. For instance, I'd join EX Primals party finder groups almost every day despite not needing a single thing from it. My FC mates would ask "are you a masochist? why are you constantly doing this shit?" Well, I find it fun because I liked to interact with the people on my server, help people pass content that they struggle with, challenge myself to become a better player, etc... While my FC mates still disagree with what I consider fun, I was still able to explain the subjectivity of fun in an objective way

However, lets talk about the subjectivity of "fun" in the context of FATES in an objective way.

Is it challenging? No. If you can mount/dismount a chocobo and tag mobs, you're golden.
Is it social? No. You join groups but there is no teamwork. The purpose of the group is not for social interaction but for sharing contribution. You can chat with each other, but the extent of conversation in FATE groups can be summarized: "hi", "bye", and "this sux".
Is it compelling? No. For fucks sakes, you're level synced to 17 and have none of your friggin abilities so you can zerg down a giant frog who isn't even really trying to kill you, and you're doing it without a reason.
Is it artistic? No. No actual content is being created here. You are doing fates that you've already done while leveling. The only thing they actually added were items and text.

So, tell me for real. Do you consider farming FATEs for Atmas as fun and compelling content? Or are they simply okay and acceptable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokchoykn

What I said was not a generalization. It is a truthful observation on the nature of FFXI.

---

what you said are the only people who find this acceptable are ffxi veterans. I find it it acceptable and I never played a minute of ffxi. therefore, your generalization is wrong. and I doubt this thread on a forum that only a minority of ffxiv players use is an accurate feel for how many people actually find it acceptable and how many hate it. besides we're told this is one step in reaching the ultimate goal of the zodiac weapons. it would make sense that the first step is easy. just like the first step of a relic reborn was easy. easy but takes time. step two will be a little bit harder and takes time as well. hopefully with each new step the difficult builds.

think about it like this... if the first step was so overly challenging AND took a long time to complete... where would the game go with each new step to the zodiac weapons. you can't start off challenging and sustain that with a new patch every couple of months.

and if you're not being social while doing fates... well that's not SE's fault.

Nothing they add will make everyone entirely happy, you were content pre 2.2 OTHERS weren't. They wanted to make something that would give the hardcores something to do. Lo and behold this is born. A long arduous grind whether you like it or not. You are blowing so much smoke over something you do not have to do. That's what you're not getting. As stated fun is subjective, there are people that love grinds and DO LIKE to do fates get over it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokchoykn

*snip*

---

Persoanlly, I try to not touch FATEs if I don't have to to touch them, and the only reason I "dislike" them is because "anyone can just randomly join. When content FATE related dies down, FATEs "can" be fun when doing them with your friends. some fates like " Cancer" can be annoying to do with a full party of 8.

To answer your question on whether or not to me FATEs are fun.

My answer is: Initially after patch drops? No. 1 Month after things have died down? Yes it can be fun when your doing it with your friends.

Do I wish FATEs were something else entirely? YES! but I can live with it for now till they hopefully eventually change it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starlord

I don't like grinding them for EXP. I don't like FATEs as much as the next person does, but if it's for the sake of long lasting content, I can put up with it for now. ( Though there is another way to get the same relic through the books you get with myth tomes, that's the way I will probably go for. The thing here is to have "options" and we have options to do so. 1 way is FATEs the other is getting those 9 books through myth. I am sure both ways of getting the Relic gets you to the same destination in the end.

---

What you have described is what we MMORPGamers call "filler content". It is cheap and it is lazy. It does nothing to improve the quality of the game.

When gamers stop thinking to themselves:

Quote:

---

"Is this worth my limited and valuable gaming time?"

---

and start thinking:

Quote:

---

"Is this worth the loot reward at the end?"

---

That's when this kind of thing becomes acceptable and that's how MMO companies keep you around with minimal effort and cost. This was pretty much the marketing strategy of FFXI. I find it insulting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokchoykn

-Snip-

---

Now I'm actually curious, how would you have the Zodiac questline done, and keep in mind it has to fulfill these guidelines:

Fun (Obvious)
Designed to take a lot of time (Yoshida even said he expected most won't be done by 2.25, and even then the questline won't be done until at least 2.5 or something)
Challenging (As per your request. And also keep in mind that things Leviathan Extreme will most likely end up, with the nature of how content in this game is made in general)
Involve in the open world (The only logical reason why it is using FATEs at all.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starlord

And to me that's exactly what I ( as in my opinion) got. "Quality Content" is subjective. You may think it's trash, when I think it's treasure " One man's trash is another man's treasure" :P

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starlord

I don't like grinding them for EXP. I don't like FATEs as much as the next person does, but if it's for the sake of long lasting content, I can put up with it for now. oks through myth.

---

Doesn't sound like you think it's quality to me o_O. Just re-using easy leveling tutorial content fates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doo

Doesn't sound like you think it's quality to me o_O. Just re-using easy leveling tutorial content fates.

---

What I really mean is, it depends on how FATEs are being used. However I rather not have them

There could be more funnier ways than FATE grind -> Boss grind :p i would rather kill bosses over and over than do mindlesszerg fates.

Maybe they could take a part of good from XI

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

Now I'm actually curious, how would you have the Zodiac questline done, and keep in mind it has to fulfill these guidelines:

---

Great question. Thanks for asking it!

I would have done it with variety. I would have had the player experience or re-experience the many aspects of the game.

I would have had the player Spiritbond his Relic as a part of the quest. The process would be slow, but can be done by completing Primals, Dungeons, Raids, or FATEs. Plus, I'd introduce a daily Hunting Log to the game, for this purpose. The more difficult the content, the higher the Spiritbond rate. The player can decide how he wants the Spiritbond, but if he wants to do it rapidly, he has to play a lot and do a lot of things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Great question. Thanks for asking it!

I would have done it with variety. I would have had the player experience or re-experience the many aspects of the game.

I would have had the player Spiritbond his Relic as a part of the quest. The process would be slow, but can be done by completing Primals, Dungeons, Raids, or FATEs. Plus, I'd introduce a daily Hunting Log to the game, for this purpose. The more difficult the content, the higher the Spiritbond rate. The player can decide how he wants the Spiritbond, but if he wants to do it rapidly, he has to play a lot and do a lot of things.

---

This sounds pretty much like what the quest is now. Only difference is that you have to do a bunch of FATEs to get to what you just described, minus the spiritbond. Requiring spiritbond would be trivial, since many players already have that requirement met.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

This sounds pretty much like what the quest is now. Only difference is that you have to do a bunch of FATEs to get to what you just described, minus the spiritbond. Requiring spiritbond would be trivial, since many players already have that requirement met.

---

Emphasized Dungeons over FATEs. And introduced choice. These are huge changes to me.

The "Spiritbond" would be reset upon the start of the quest.

I can't understand. ALmost all the players that didn't liked the Zodiac quest dont even use the relic as weapon and WONT use the Zodiac as well because of the Stats and blablablabla. Why all this QQ for something you won't even use, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SendohJin

low drop rates on top of low level FATEs, that's just terrible.

---

It is but that's exactly what people that whine wanted. If your luck isn't godlike already then it's gonna take dedication regardless of being a casual or hardcore. Now if someone goes an entire year without seeing even 1 piece of atma then it would totally be bull but people are getting their atma and not even a month has passed by to warrant this drama.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Emphasized Dungeons over FATEs. And introduced choice. These are huge changes to me.

---

Not my image but
http://xivpads.com/i/097//-original/151863abc995.png
looks very much like you described. The 12 atma pieces are the gateway grind to get to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gormogon

It is but that's exactly what people that whine wanted. If your luck isn't godlike already then it's gonna take dedication regardless of being a casual or hardcore. Now if someone goes an entire year without seeing even 1 piece of atma then it would totally be bull but people are getting their atma and not even a month has passed by to warrant this drama.

---

I think it's reasonable to ask yourself if you want to spend literally countless days after days of your limited time and life doing something in this game that isn't remotely fun. I've been asking myself that today after playing at least 8 hours a day since ffxiv beta, and the answer for me is likely no. It's been a fun time since I got up at 3am to log on and start playing at early release when the servers first came up. I don't regret all the time I've put into ffxiv so far, since it's been enjoyable...even grinding up all my crafters and harvesters. I just logged onto my account since the first month of the game and canceled my monthly auto-pay. Maybe I'll change my mind in the next week.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gormogon

It is but that's exactly what people that whine wanted.

---

I don't know many players that wanted to grind low lvl fates endlessly. Long term goals, yes. Boring, mindless, repetition of old content, no. Not sure how this talking point got started that a lot of players want this type of thingy.

Can we stop pretending anyone was, at any point, asking to get to grind through hundreds of low level FATEs to upgrade their currently best endgame weapon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gormogon

You mean it's not handed down freely and I have to actually work for it? Nerf irelia...I mean...whatever.

---

You're right, I forgot how hard FATEs were

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

Can we stop pretending anyone was, at any point, asking to get to grind through hundreds of low level FATEs to upgrade their currently best endgame weapon.

---

It's not the best weapon though. And there are alternatives for second tier weapons. If you don't want to grind the zodiac, go run Leviathan EX and upgrade that, or farm your soldiery tomes and get the weathered weapon, and upgrade that. Or you can get the actual best weapon, and beat T9.

Why are options bad? Some people wanted a grind, they got it. Others want a challenge, they got it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lenarr

I think it's reasonable to ask yourself if you want to spend literally countless days after days of your limited time and life doing something in this game that isn't remotely fun. I've been asking myself that today after playing at least 8 hours a day since ffxiv beta, and the answer for me is likely no. It's been a fun time since I got up at 3am to log on and start playing at early release when the servers first came up. I don't regret all the time I've put into ffxiv so far, since it's been enjoyable...even grinding up my crafters and harvesters.

---

We all have limited time. Doesn't stop the hardcore people from complaining about time investments.
We all have to grind for these things if we desire to have em. Doesn't stop you and others that wanna complain instead of doing them either, no offense.

It's just how it is. People's feedback have sided towards these extremes instead of desiring a more moderate and tolerable pace due to the most of pettiest of reasons, from my perspective.

I have horrible luck when it comes to RNG and I'm still gonna be farming these fates. Yes I'm not gonna priotize FATEs over dailies and other content either and I'll farm as much as I can during my free time regardless of how long it takes me to achieve these 12 atma pieces.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doo

I don't know many players that wanted to grind low lvl fates endlessly. Long term goals, yes. Boring, mindless, repetition of old content, no. Not sure how this talking point got started that a lot of players want this type of thingy.

---

It's not about grinding low level fates it's about dedicating time and effort.

I think what people are missing is that fate grinding is just the first step to zodiac weapons. the second quest in the zodiac saga, trial of the braves requires purchasing 9 books at 1500 myth each. each of the 9 books has several objectives that have to be completed before you can purchase the next book. you can only have one book in your possession at a time. so put the fate grinding in that context.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LexSunfire

I think what people are missing is that fate grinding is just the first step to zodiac weapons. the second quest in the zodiac saga, trial of the braves requires purchasing 9 books at 1500 myth each. each of the 9 books has several objectives that have to be completed before you can purchase the next book. you can only have one book in your possession at a time. so put the fate grinding in that context.

---

So basically a milder version of the Trial of the Magians from FFXI?

Here's a link for some context if you're not familiar with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LexSunfire

I think what people are missing is that fate grinding is just the first step to zodiac weapons. the second quest in the zodiac saga, trial of the braves requires purchasing 9 books at 1500 myth each. each of the 9 books has several objectives that have to be completed before you can purchase the next book. you can only have one book in your possession at a time. so put the fate grinding in that context.

---

LOL!!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blazer

I was as hard core as an FFXI vet as they come. The grinding is completely fine to me. What isn't okay is the god damn rng associated with these drops. It's complete bs.

---

10 hours of fate grinding here,in a party of 5 people,nobody have see what an Atma piece look in the inventory(of course everyone have their zenith equipped).maybe for the next year i can reach the next step

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rodew

10 hours of fate grinding here,in a party of 5 people,nobody have see what an Atma piece look in the inventory(of course everyone have their zenith equipped).maybe for the next year i can reach the next step

---

Well the forums asked/whined/moaned/complained for this so you have them to thank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rodew

10 hours of fate grinding here,in a party of 5 people,nobody have see what an Atma piece look in the inventory(of course everyone have their zenith equipped).maybe for the next year i can reach the next step

---

You can thank elitists for this.

Personally I don't mind nor care for the grind. I'm enjoy everything that 2.2 has to offer.

I'm totally okay with this. Because, this is only a repetitive grind if you're trying to do it immediately. It's content that's meant to take a while, meant to inspire high level players who are running past a lowbie fate to stop and help, because hey, they might get something too. So yeah, it's burn out worthy if you're doing it for 12 hours at a time, but overall, it will help the open world.

After burning myself out last night by smacking my face against FATEs for 4-5 hours, I've resolved to only put 2 hours a day into Atma FATE grinding. If I don't get it, so be it, another day. Not gonna spend too much time on what can be a fruitless encounter.

And in those 2 hours, I'll be pushing my retainers out to get materials ohohoho.

We can file this one under, "Becareful for what you ask for".

well this has made it almost impossible for people to lvl their lower lvl classes with fates, I'm not going to blame the players for what they have to do in order to get the relic+2 but on my server in the Western La Noscea its almost impossible to lvl a low lvl class with fates, SE could have used mid to high lvl fates for it like 30-40, it does have some ups and downs, ups theres more people to do the fates downs sometimes its over before some people make it there.

I'm having fun with it, and have no issue with putting in some work for something.

I like it.
It's not like I love FATE-ing, but there are multiple good things that SE did with this:


1. While the new Relic might not be super-unique, due to the time involved nearly noone will have all the Relics upped. So you can say that to some extent the new Relic is only for your mainclass(es).

2. Low level characters actually have a far better chance of doing Fates aside from the usual spots (I can't count how many Fates I soloed just for the heck of it, because noone ever does Fates in certain regions), so that makes it a bit more fun, albeit maybe still slower than being at suncoast all day^^

3. I actually like grinding and so do other people. If this won't be the same every new upgrade I think it'S a nice change of pace.

This is a long post but I'm writing this with to be taken as real feedback for the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gormogon

It's not about grinding low level fates it's about dedicating time and effort.

---

Wow? That's what time and effort is for you? Not going through new content or spending time devising ways to conquer the new bahamut 2nd coil or EX Leviathan? Marching from one fate to another for hours on end is not in any shape or form an achievement in this game. The whole emphasis of this quest is based on luck. Not on a raid or a boss fight or an instance. Just mindless, seemingly endless grinding of a fate(s) and I certainly didn’t ask for that.

I just spent 6 hours with my best friend farming for only ONE...ONE of the items.

I see a lot of players in favor of these changes saying a 6 hour grind on FATEs isn’t hard. However, the point that some of us are trying to make is that it’s not about the “effort” of the six hour grind, but the drop rate that forces players to wade through those six hours.

I’m on vacation and I will be going back to work soon. I live in Japan. For those of you who don’t know the work hours in Japan… don’t even bother.
In my opinion, the game has done a great job of accommodating a wide range of players (perhaps in favor of casual players). While the Atma/Animus weapons are meant to be a long term goal, it’s not realistic to grind FATEs for six hours or more just for one Atma piece.

It’s clear the game is still looking to strike a balance with short and long-term goals, but I dare say this is beyond the realm of realistic expectations for players. There is so much more content out there that time could be better spent on. EX Leviathan isn’t going to be on farm status on most servers any time soon, let alone getting lucky to get the mirror to upgrade the Leviathan weapons.

The other alternative is high allagan weapons, but we all know it’s going to be a long time before anyone is getting those. If you do, then this game has even more problems. There’s no denying that many players will be waiting for video guides for EX Leviathan, and without the high allagan weapons or the weapons from gerolt, the smart money is to focus on upgrading the zenith weapons.

I feel this needs to be addressed immediately. I even had a few people come in the party, and leave after the first fate. I spent the time and effort on my holiday to grind this item. I've gone through the 5th floor, I've completed all the things I've wanted to complete prior to patch 2.2. I've had a lot of fun with this game but this particular fate grinding needs be reconsidered.

Just to be clear, I'm not quoting you to pick on you. I just feel the backlash from players with such a “hardcore” grinding mentality is just a little much.

Note: I don't remember my relic weapon being an easy ordeal like some of you claim. I remember my server (and hearing that most servers) were taking a lot of time to complete Titan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Because I'm spending my limited and precious leisure time doing something that is not:

• Challenging
• Social
• Thought-provoking
• Compelling
• Interactive
• FUN

I challenge anyone, especially S-E developers and representatives, to tell me that this is a fun activity. The fact that I spent the last three months anxiously awaiting this patch only to find myself grinding low-level fates is disturbing to me.

No more FATEs.

---

This sums up my thoughts exactly. Been helping people who fail titan hard all day. I'm not doing zodiac relics until they fix the atma part.

Coming from a background of korean mmos, honestly this is nothing new to me and I'm actually perfectly fine with it. Relics shouldn't be handed out freely and I would say this would compensate for the ease of the zenith weapon. One small change I would like to see if such quests are implemented in future would be to not limit the grinding to fate. Make it such that any mob in that zone has a chance to drop the item. It can be 0.1% or 0.01% , I don't really care but I hate standing around waiting for fates to spawn or travelling across half the map to get to a fate. I would much prefer if I can choose 1 corner of the map to grind mobs non-stop, even for a few hours its better than spending half of the time standing around or riding on my mount to get to fates.

Just my 2 cents.

My perspective:

Having the FATE requirement for atmas is ingenious. By getting the high level characters to do FATEs in the lower level areas, those FATEs become accessible to low level participants. While levelling, it can be quite frustrating to see a FATE, especially and NM FATE that you can't engage because there is no one to help you. This will help futher open up the game to new players and those levelling secondary classes.

Sure, it will be a bit of a grind, but only if you take a mentality of rushing it.

3 Hours FATE farming yesterday, 0 atma , 5 min in today, just got my first.

Brb gonna throw some coins in the Lucky well close to my house! Seems all you need